Re: Chiropractic care and neurofeedback

March 5, 2011

Thanks everyone for your input on this topic. Yes, it did come from BST and was

one of the things that sent up a flag for me when I was looking at their

program.

I have spoken to my Chiropractor about this and asked if she has had any

experience with patients who are doing both modalities at the same time, with

the answer being no. Hence my question here.

I decided to ask the list because my discussion with her was about how

chiropractic manipulations work with the parasympathetic / sympathetic system.

I had the experience last week of having a correction done that did affect my

ability to get my coherence levels up using the EmWave program. It took 3 days

before I was able to get myself back to scoring in the green consistently again.

The neck manipulation performed seemed to cause my coherency levels to plummet.

There was nothing else that seemed to have been a contributing factor to cause

this to happen.

My personal opinion is that if we can get health care modalities working

together, then we are better able to get complete health care with the quickest

and best results.

Thanks again,

Cora Price

March 7, 2011

Hello all,I wish I had more time to write on this subject as I am a BST survivor and I have two different degrees, one in physical therapy and another in psychotherapy which gives me a very different focus on patient care. I primarily focus on the treatment of PTSD and Traumatic Stress. With regards to BST, the founder of BST, Voldemort, always stated to avoid ANY other modality while being trained. Did he give any substantiation to this claim, no. Just that it undoes what BST did, and it was never clear just what BST did. Is there any validity to this claim, yes, if the client has been traumatized in the past, invasive procedures, ie procedures that the limbic brain perceives as invasive, could retraumatize the patient and increase levels of Somatic

Dissociation. Will dissociation affect the brain map, yes. Did Voldemort have this level of understanding when he made such claims, NO. Is this possibility limited to chiropractic care, No. Any treatment whice affects the compensatory mechanism established by the CNS to deal with trauma could potentially cause emotional abbreaction, or increase levels of dissociation. Will the patient be aware of increased levels of dissociation, probably not, as they have normalize dissociation as a "state of being" since the trauma. Will the practitioner recognize increased levels of dissociation, only if s/he is trained in this area. For more discussion on somatic dissociation, please visit my website and download Bob Scaer's article on dissociation. www.neuroharmonicsinstitute.com.Love to write more but need to

go.Blessings,MarcusPS: Yes, I would love to have the 40K back to spend on something else, like a trip to Brazil to study with Pete. From: Dailey <ddailey@...> Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 3:31:24 AMSubject: RE: Re: Chiropractic care and neurofeedback

Hi Pete, Thank you for this important discussion. I would not be surprised to learn that "brainstate

technologies" routinely bad-mouths other modalities where a client might divert

his or her hard earned money. And I don't want to stoop to bad-mouthing

myself.... so I will very politely point out that it is not hard to conceive of

nefarious motivations when a company (such as BST) sells BioExplorer for 40,000

dollars and promises hundred (yes, folks hundreds) of scientifically proven

real genuine protocols. And the best thing of all is that any idiot can do it.

For that kind of money I expect a couple of PhD diplomas thrown in as well. They

look better on the wall than faux van Gogh purchased from Walmart. Especially

when you are trying to impress all the people from your little church or pub. I have seen people permanently injured by spinal (especially

cervical) manipulations. Sometimes it is due to the profound insensitivity of

the practitioner, and other times I am sure it is just an unexpected side

effect of a congenital anomaly. As one example, "berry aneurysms"

occur in only two percent of the population. They are located in the basal

vascular structures that supply the brain. Sometimes they are disturbed and rupture

with disastrous consequences. One big and obvious problem that is just plain overlooked is

that most people receive their acupuncture and joint manipulation while

recumbent on a table. As soon as they stand up an entirely different set of

postural muscles and mechanisms kick in. I do about one quarter of my

treatments with the client standing up so that those mechanisms are monitored

and recruited during sessions. (I actually do NFB sometimes with clients

standing up or sitting on those big 'core exercise' balls). The problem caused by inappropriate bony manipulation is nothing

compared to that caused by the manipulation of Big Pharma, as most of your

readers know. I have two documents I would happily send anyone - both only a

few months old. From the Department of Health and Human Services - Office of

Inspector General we have "Adverse Events in Hospitals: National Incidence

Among Medicare Beneficiaries." Fifteen thousand people die per month (per month!) from

"errors" un US hospitals - and this is just Medicare inpatients. These

are your parents, grandparents, siblings and children! Fifteen thousand per

month - agonizably dead with a capital "D". "Errors" - not

old age! Do I hear a whisper of profiteering, experimentation or eugenics

anywhere? And just recently in the ultra prestigious ls of Internal

Medicine we learn that only 8% of drug studies disclose what is actually in the

placebos given to the "controls". In many cases, according to the

authors, the placebos are designed to make the "control" group ill or

kill them in order that the junk experimental drug looks better. [2] This is

the phony standard of "science" that we fledglings are told to surpass.

There was an amazing medical doctor at the Karolinski Institute

of Medicine in Sweden named Alf Breig who wrote a book, "Adverse

Effects of Mechanical Tension in the Central Nervous System". He had taken

a number of people who were dying of multiple sclerosis (as I was when I

abandoned graduate school in physics). He went in through the spine and made a

long cut in the dura mater ("tough mother" in Latin) which is the protective

sheath around the spinal cord and relieved any tension in it. Then he sutured

it. This seemed to relieve the tension that was ultimately transmitted

via the pia matter to the small blood vessels in the brain which, due to the

tension, were leaking immunologically active compounds into the brain, causing

the multiple sclerotic (scarred) plaques. His experimental group

experienced few or no re-occurrences of MS. Accidents and, unfortunately, poor

manipulations can have disastrous consequences in terms of creating mechanical

tension in the central nervous system. Cranial manipulation is a fascinating study. And as I mentioned,

Porges (polyvagal theory) has been associating with some European craniopath(s).

I have forgotten whom. Every time I take a 2 inch long sterilized acupuncture needle

and insert it in the client's upper neck, bypassing the major arteries and

veins and work out scar tissue around the base of the skull (occipital condyles)

and the first cervical vertebra..... I pray. I have 8 real human skulls in my

office each with a particular anomaly or birth defect. I rarely have images

(scans) to guide me with real clients. I had great teachers and I have had 30

years private practice with little or no problems. I can probably get in

another twenty years before time wears me away. But I think I will keep

praying. OMG - life is really so fragile. One day you breath out and you

never breath in again - ever. Thank you so much for everything you do, Dr van

Deusen, to give people more time to figure it all out. [1] (http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-06-09-00090.pdf). [2] Golomb BA, et al (2010) - What's in placebos - Who knows -

Analysis of randomized, controlled trials. Ann Intern Med. 2010; 153:532-535.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of pvdtlc

Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 2:49 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Chiropractic care and neurofeedback

,

Well said (and not too rant-y).

This thing about chiropractic comes, to the best of my ability to track it,

from the folks at Brainstates Technologies. I have heard stories (once I

think even from a client) about clients who had fabulous results from spending

20 hours doing a raft of different protocols with BST in one week--transformed

their lives--and then went for a chiropractic visit and lost everything.

I tried to pin down the story a little more (since I would expect that in many

cases a person who did ANYTHING that involved sitting in a zero gravity chair

with eyes closed for 20 hours in a week might experience a significant calming

effect, but that the effect might not last. I'm fully aware of Jim

Hardt's studies and his weeklong training in alpha which have shown the ability

of the brain to shift into an alpha state in a short period of time and

actually stay there, and I know that can happen (though Hardt does a lot more

than just train alpha for 20 hours). But the client who wrote to me was

quite adamant and detailed about the immediacy of the change and the fact that

it had been lasting over a period of weeks following training--if not months.

I can't see any reason why this would be true, and I have personally trained

many chiropractors who added NF to their practices with good results

(presumably without stopping their adjustments, and one of the most successful

clients I ever worked with in terms of a life transformation in 30 sessions was

referred by and continued to be treated by a chiropractor throughout the time

we worked together.

I assume this may be one of those deals where, for whatever reason, 3 minutes

after I spit on the sidewalk it began to rain, therefore spitting on the

sidewalk causes rain.

Pete

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Dailey <ddailey@...> wrote:

Dear listmates, This is a very

disturbing conversation. I am sorry this

comes out like a bit of a rant. I detest most professionals. Yet I, like many

of us, am one. I am a primary

health care provider. As a state licensed acupuncturist/herbalist I probably do

more joint mobilization than most - so this is a topic I understand. I have to

say that most acupuncturists, like most chiropractors, like most medical

doctors, like most attorneys, like most domestic partners, etc., are only

competent in a narrow range of situations. A state license to make money means

just that. And many people who do NFB have little training or licensure at all.

That is why cooperation - not sequestration - is important. Since this

conversation was about discontinuing chiropractic care during neurofeedback

I want to caution you all. In most states chiropractors are primary

health care providers. You do not tell their clients to cease care anymore than

you tell a cancerous client to stop chemotherapy. You may want to tell them.

There may be a good reason. But you will bear the consequences. The same for

acupuncture. If you find a

good(!) practitioner of any art - this is going to help with your neurofeedback.

Everyone is entitled to good diet, good structural alignment, good mental

hygiene, and freedom from the stupid and harmful addictions and lifestyles that

are rapidly destroying the dwindling functional gene pool. I try to provide as

much as I can, but no single person I know provides it all. You know that old

saying, "The physician sets the bone but God heals the fracture." Takahashi, et al

in 2005 [1] showed that autonomic imbalance, as measured with heart rate

variability, had a profound control over the ability of the brain to produce

alpha and theta frequencies. Anyone who wants to train EEG will find her or

himself up against this limitation every single day - whether you want to or

not. There are reasons why neurofeedback doesn't cure ALL cases of polio or

diabetes or scurvy or leprosy or epilepsy. And having a stupid acupuncturist or

chiropractor or attorney or priest or whatever, is not going to help either.

Good osteopaths, acupuncturists, craniopaths, chiropractors, naturopaths etc., are

always a plus. Unfortunately - not many are very competent. If a client is

not being seen to improve with a particular therapy then getting a second

opinion or taking time off is an important option. Again, unfortunately, I will

state that most practitioners in any field are incompetent. They only work to

make money. Unfortunately, when I make statements like this many people feel

uncomfortable even though I don't know them and couldn't possibly be targeting

them. So don't feel insulted. And there is

good reason why Porges (the author of the polyvagal theory) associates

with craniopaths. Personally I prefer the osteopathic model of craniopathy to

the chiropractic or the often effete biodynamic craniopathy, but they are all

usually beneficial IF and only if you find an expert. I encourage

everyone to read Alan Schore, Porges, Kabat-Zin, Sapolsky, McEwin, etc.,

regarding self-regulation. The problem is never with the skilled practice

of chiropractic or acupuncture or diet or craniopathy, etc. - it always has to

do with the quality of the people (usually professionals) in your life. The

word "Doctor" comes from the latin "docere" which means to

teach. It is interesting to look at what various practitioners are actually

teaching. Because my

license permits, I set bones, use needles, administer herbs, counsel, do qEEGs

and teach self-regulation. I refuse to see clients unless they follow my

guidelines, which includes manipulation and balance of the autonomic nervous

system. I rarely find dissenters, but they can always go take their chances

with someone else. Neurofeedback,

biofeedback, and self-regulation are powerful tools. But they only work in

certain cases. It would be good to pay attention to issues of neural

interference, neuroprotection, neuroplasticity, and so forth, in order that

each client has the greatest probability of improvement. This may mean steering

your client away from an ineffective or harmful practitioner towards a better

one. But is no indictment against a general class of science or care such as

chiropractic. If anyone makes such a statement then I accuse them of prejudice

based on ignorance or a small sample. Show me the data. Dailey,

L.Ac., BCB, BCN, QEEG-D www.cortexercise.com www.growing.com/mind [1] Takahashi T,

et al (2005) - Changes in EEG and autonomic nervous activity during meditation

and their association with personality traits, International Journal of

Psychophysiology 55 (2005) 199â€“ 207 [2] Korr IM

(1978) - Sustained sympathicotonia as a factor in disease. American Academy of

Osteopathy. Chiropactic care and nuerofeedback I have heard it is recommended that chiropractic

care should cease for up to 4 weeks while doing nueorfeedback as it can impede

progress since it effectively works with the parasympathetic/sympathetic system

of the brain. I'd appreciate feedback and hearing of others experiences on this

topic.

March 8, 2011

Man, what a bummer. This wouldn't be the first time a grandiose " visionary " (he who shall not be mentioned) took a perfectly good technology and ruined it for everyone by making outlandish claims in order to set " apart from the rest. "

I was originally trained by the BST " method " - not much different than we all do. Funny, I don't have a problem with the actual process (ie not much different,) just the recklessness of the statements. " BST " and humility don't seem to go together. That doesn't make as much money.

We must be very careful indeed. Most all of the people in this group; practitioners who are certified, licensed, degreed, or not, seem to follow humbly along.Peace,Chris

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Marcus Kurek <marcus.cptr@...> wrote:

Hello all,I wish I had more time to write on this subject as I am a BST survivor and I have two different degrees, one in physical therapy and another in psychotherapy which gives me a very different focus on patient care. I primarily focus on the treatment of PTSD and Traumatic Stress.

With regards to BST, the founder of BST, Voldemort, always stated to avoid ANY other modality while being trained. Did he give any substantiation to this claim, no. Just that it undoes what BST did, and it was never clear just what BST did. Is there any validity to this claim, yes, if the client has been traumatized in the past, invasive procedures, ie procedures that the limbic brain perceives as invasive, could retraumatize the patient and increase levels of Somatic

Dissociation. Will dissociation affect the brain map, yes. Did Voldemort have this level of understanding when he made such claims, NO. Is this possibility limited to chiropractic care, No. Any treatment whice affects the compensatory mechanism established by the CNS to deal with trauma could potentially cause emotional abbreaction, or increase levels of dissociation. Will the patient be aware of increased levels of dissociation, probably not, as they have normalize dissociation as a " state of being " since the trauma. Will the practitioner recognize increased levels of dissociation, only if s/he is trained in this area. For more discussion on somatic dissociation, please visit my website and download Bob Scaer's article on dissociation. www.neuroharmonicsinstitute.com.

Love to write more but need to

go.Blessings,MarcusPS: Yes, I would love to have the 40K back to spend on something else, like a trip to Brazil to study with Pete.

From: Dailey <ddailey@...>

Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 3:31:24 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Chiropractic care and neurofeedback

Hi Pete, Thank you for this important discussion. I would not be surprised to learn that " brainstate

technologies " routinely bad-mouths other modalities where a client might divert