Guest guest Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 On 8/8/2011 11:13 AM, MikeCohenEEG wrote: Someone had sent out this link regarding BrainState technologies. It’s not a positive about BrainState – but you’ll have to make your own judgment if it’s accurate or slanted. . dl.dropbox.com/u/3604331/BRAIN.STATE.GERDES.little.known.facts.mp4 Gerdes has attracted a group of people who have purchased his system around the country. He has promoted the system extensively. Those who purchase it not only software similar to TLC (built on its core?) but he’s added some of his own twists. He’s gotten amazing press. He’s clearly good at promotion. That’s part of what people buy when they go with Brain State. I know of a number of people who have purchased his system that left his organization for a variety of reasons, including ongoing costs and they wanted to learn more about neurofeedback. BrainState uses their own model that Gerdes (who is not a clinician but a software and marketing guy) has developed. I have been told Lee Gerdes works hard to separate what BrainState does from neurofeedback – that it’s different. Even though he’s combining traditional neurofeedback with I believe light stimulation. It appears to be neurofeedback. There is no evidence anywhere otherwise and he uses neurofeedback software that he has adapted. Since he sells franchises/systems to non clinicians, they really can’t talk about clinical applications anyway, and it’s beneficial to suggest it’s not neurofeedback but something else = from a marketing standpoint. Making strong clear claims about what it does is much easier to sell than neurofeedback. As a field, we are very cautious about what neurofeedback does, and about making claims. So it’s much easier for him to promote than anyone who is a clinical professional or who is working with clinical conditions. Of course some of their franchises do treat clinical conditions. They are just not supposed to say that. Mike Cohen www.CenterforBrain.com From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Dan Hengstebeck Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 9:37 AM Subject: BST Does anyone know about BST (Lee Gerdes system) or is the TLC system better ? Thank You, Dan I, along with Sue Shipman, were two of the first franchisees. Tragically it didn't take long to discover that what we sold, was questionable and now use TLC. As Mike said, Lee is very good at promoting and keeping what he does extremely secretive. I don't know the numbers, but I can tell you that the percentage of people that have left the franchise is something to look at. Duffy McMahon -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 I have worked with both. I won't slam BST - their protocols do work and they do help people. (I no longer work woth BST.) BUT, in my opinion, you can do everything with the TLC system ....and more, because you can modify the design. Not to mention the price difference. You won't regret a TLC system. and the community are great. There is a learning curve with any NF system. Expect that. There will be lots of nice people here to help along the way. For a fraction of the money you paid for BST, you could get some really serious training, which would be FAR more beneficial. Just my .02.Chris On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 12:13 PM, MikeCohenEEG <mcoheneeg@...> wrote: Someone had sent out this link regarding BrainState technologies. It’s not a positive about BrainState – but you’ll have to make your own judgment if it’s accurate or slanted. . dl.dropbox.com/u/3604331/BRAIN.STATE.GERDES.little.known.facts.mp4 Gerdes has attracted a group of people who have purchased his system around the country. He has promoted the system extensively. Those who purchase it not only software similar to TLC (built on its core?) but he’s added some of his own twists. He’s gotten amazing press. He’s clearly good at promotion. That’s part of what people buy when they go with Brain State. I know of a number of people who have purchased his system that left his organization for a variety of reasons, including ongoing costs and they wanted to learn more about neurofeedback. BrainState uses their own model that Gerdes (who is not a clinician but a software and marketing guy) has developed. I have been told Lee Gerdes works hard to separate what BrainState does from neurofeedback – that it’s different. Even though he’s combining traditional neurofeedback with I believe light stimulation. It appears to be neurofeedback. There is no evidence anywhere otherwise and he uses neurofeedback software that he has adapted. Since he sells franchises/systems to non clinicians, they really can’t talk about clinical applications anyway, and it’s beneficial to suggest it’s not neurofeedback but something else = from a marketing standpoint. Making strong clear claims about what it does is much easier to sell than neurofeedback. As a field, we are very cautious about what neurofeedback does, and about making claims. So it’s much easier for him to promote than anyone who is a clinical professional or who is working with clinical conditions. Of course some of their franchises do treat clinical conditions. They are just not supposed to say that. Mike Cohenwww.CenterforBrain.com From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Dan Hengstebeck Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 9:37 AM Subject: BST Does anyone know about BST (Lee Gerdes system) or is the TLC system better ? Thank You, Dan -- Helveychelvey@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 I've tried several commercial EEG training services, from a mid-90's one targeted at ADHD, to the sickly overpriced (but powerful) Biocybernaut, to the BST offering as delivered by BST in sdale. I'm the former CTO of a consumer biomonitoring startup (mybasis.com) and was recently on the cover of The Financial Times with electrodes on my forehead. I've had my own WaveRider 2cx since 1998 but don't use it much. I've had dinner with Lee. He made some custom protocols for my mother, who has a severed corpus callosum (halfway) thanks to a botched Stanford brain surgery years ago. There is a glowing BST testimonial on their site. After 13 years of fog & partial paralysis, BST woke her up to the point she controlled her leg consciously and became much more mentally " there " than normal. It was light & day difference. Lee told me - and I believe him - about success he's had with other intractable cases including Cerebral Palsy. We're talking Awakenings type stories. I am forever grateful for that. I noticed differences from my 10 sessions, but not as dramatic as Biocybernaut. But here are the problems I am aware of: -Secrecy about protocols -Massive database of brain scans...which ought to be open source or publicly available. It is wrong for it to be proprietary. -Stupidly high cost franchise model (north of $50k now?) for a setup that is worth less than $5k, along with $6k/year maintenance fees no matter how many times you use the machine. -Inability to keep the machine from uploading your work to BST HQ (I think) But it's the business model that pisses me off. BST can help a lot of people but it's priced to keep it from spreading quickly. I'd buy a BST unit for $10k and offer it for friends and family, but it's not viable. Biocybernaut is a 1 week intensive program, for $15k. Overpriced for sure, but profoundly transformational and spiritual even. After all this, what am I doing? I am about to get a Pendant A3 to use with Bioexplorer and nIR HEG, and I'm going to use it with TLC protocols because: -It's openly supported and discussed online -I can share MY data if I want, but don't have to -Affordable -Customizable The choice is pretty simple if you're a biohacker like me. But if you're Joe Consumer, BST is the best bang for the buck - you show up, pay your $2500, and at the end of a week, probably feel much better. Thanks, Dave (my blog is at www.bulletproofexec.com) > > > ** > > > > > > Someone had sent out this link regarding BrainState technologies<http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3604331/BRAIN.STATE.GERDES.little.known.fac\ ts.mp4>. > > It's not a positive about BrainState – but you'll have to make your own > > judgment if it's accurate or slanted. . **** > > > > ** ** > > > > dl.dropbox.com/u/3604331/BRAIN.STATE.GERDES.little.known.facts.mp4 **** > > > > ** ** > > > > Gerdes has attracted a group of people who have purchased his system around > > the country. He has promoted the system extensively. Those who purchase it > > not only software similar to TLC (built on its core?) but he's added some of > > his own twists. He's gotten amazing press. He's clearly good at promotion. > > That's part of what people buy when they go with Brain State. **** > > > > ** ** > > > > I know of a number of people who have purchased his system that left his > > organization for a variety of reasons, including ongoing costs and they > > wanted to learn more about neurofeedback. BrainState uses their own model > > that Gerdes (who is not a clinician but a software and marketing guy) has > > developed. **** > > > > ** ** > > > > I have been told Lee Gerdes works hard to separate what BrainState does > > from neurofeedback – that it's different. Even though he's combining > > traditional neurofeedback with I believe light stimulation. It appears to > > be neurofeedback. There is no evidence anywhere otherwise and he uses > > neurofeedback software that he has adapted. **** > > > > ** ** > > > > Since he sells franchises/systems to non clinicians, they really can't talk > > about clinical applications anyway, and it's beneficial to suggest it's not > > neurofeedback but something else = from a marketing standpoint. Making > > strong clear claims about what it does is much easier to sell than > > neurofeedback. **** > > > > ** ** > > > > As a field, we are very cautious about what neurofeedback does, and about > > making claims. So it's much easier for him to promote than anyone who is a > > clinical professional or who is working with clinical conditions. Of course > > some of their franchises do treat clinical conditions. They are just not > > supposed to say that. **** > > > > ** ** > > > > Mike Cohen**** > > > > www.CenterforBrain.com **** > > > > ** ** > > > > *From:* [mailto: ] > > *On Behalf Of *Dan Hengstebeck > > *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2011 9:37 AM > > *To:* > > *Subject:* BST**** > > > > ** ** > > > > **** > > > > Does anyone know about BST (Lee Gerdes system) or is the TLC system better > > ?**** > > > > ** ** > > > > Thank You,**** > > > > ** ** > > > > Dan**** > > > > **** > > > > > > > > > > -- > Helvey > chelvey@... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 I forgot one other data point in my post below. Brain State is really good at PTSD, and Lee has been offering - for free - to treat veterans, with amazing results. I referred a gulf war veteran friend to Lee, who did the treatments for free. My friend said it was life-changing for him too. So there you have it - the criticism that " BST doesn't work well " has not been my personal experience or that of my friends and family who tried it. The " Lee is a bad man " argument doesn't hold water either given the thousands of free hours he's spent with veterans, and like I said, I had dinner with him. He's a good man trying to do good things. If my review wasn't clear, I recommend BST for people who want brain training. I recommended it in the video on my site in front of hundreds of people. I send my exec coaching clients to BST locations near them. As a Wharton MBA though, I believe that the business model behind BST is preventing an amazing technology from reaching the massive numbers of people who would benefit from it. Since I am not ready to drop $50k right now (or whatever the fee is now), I don't have much choice but to do something else. Plus, if I did spend that much, I'd want to be able to do my own self-experiments, which isn't a part of the BST setup (I think). In reference, Biocybernaut's business model is even more limiting of its success. In comparison to Biocybernaut, you have to look at total cost and number of hours. Biocybernaut is 7 full days of immersion, call it 120 hours of focused work, with maybe an average of 24 hours on EEG, for $15,000. BST is about 15 hours in a week for $2500. Both have benefits, but the benefit to time and benefit to dollar ratio seems higher with BST. The total benefit of Biocybernaut was higher. BST addressed autonomic functioning in me better than Biocybernaut; Biocybernaut addressed core emotional/happiness better. Both technologies affect both domains. BST doesn't require much conscious effort which is how it's differentiated from classical stuff like Biocybernaut, which was frankly one of the hardest, most herculean efforts I've undertaken, but with amazing impact as a result. BST is *easy* and requires to particular belief system. Here's how to address my problems with BST's business model: -So if the automated protocol selection software works as described (probably does given that other BST stuff works), I don't see the justification for charging ~$50k + $6k/year. Charge an affiliate $5k up front and maybe $200 per 10 sessions, so that the maximum number of units can be deployed without affiliates needing mortgages on their houses. -Allow shared access to the anonymized brain scan data pool for academia and anyone who has a BST affiliate license -Publish more about the protocols BST is not alone in these problems. I'm a certified Heart Math guy too and I'm constantly pushing them about opening their system up, because my www.quantifiedself.com biohacker friends will end up doing it themselves if they can't get their data from the device. It's the same with BST - a black box algorithm is fine, as long as I can see my before and after states and experiment! I'll post more after I get my TLC protocols and A3 running. Who knows, maybe I'll break my brain and have to go back to BST to fix them. I hope not. > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Someone had sent out this link regarding BrainState technologies<http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3604331/BRAIN.STATE.GERDES.little.known.fac\ ts.mp4>. > > > It's not a positive about BrainState � but you'll have to make your own > > > judgment if it's accurate or slanted. . **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > dl.dropbox.com/u/3604331/BRAIN.STATE.GERDES.little.known.facts.mp4 **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Gerdes has attracted a group of people who have purchased his system around > > > the country. He has promoted the system extensively. Those who purchase it > > > not only software similar to TLC (built on its core?) but he's added some of > > > his own twists. He's gotten amazing press. He's clearly good at promotion. > > > That's part of what people buy when they go with Brain State. **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > I know of a number of people who have purchased his system that left his > > > organization for a variety of reasons, including ongoing costs and they > > > wanted to learn more about neurofeedback. BrainState uses their own model > > > that Gerdes (who is not a clinician but a software and marketing guy) has > > > developed. **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > I have been told Lee Gerdes works hard to separate what BrainState does > > > from neurofeedback � that it's different. Even though he's combining > > > traditional neurofeedback with I believe light stimulation. It appears to > > > be neurofeedback. There is no evidence anywhere otherwise and he uses > > > neurofeedback software that he has adapted. **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Since he sells franchises/systems to non clinicians, they really can't talk > > > about clinical applications anyway, and it's beneficial to suggest it's not > > > neurofeedback but something else = from a marketing standpoint. Making > > > strong clear claims about what it does is much easier to sell than > > > neurofeedback. **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > As a field, we are very cautious about what neurofeedback does, and about > > > making claims. So it's much easier for him to promote than anyone who is a > > > clinical professional or who is working with clinical conditions. Of course > > > some of their franchises do treat clinical conditions. They are just not > > > supposed to say that. **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Mike Cohen**** > > > > > > www.CenterforBrain.com **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > *From:* [mailto: ] > > > *On Behalf Of *Dan Hengstebeck > > > *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2011 9:37 AM > > > *To:* > > > *Subject:* BST**** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > **** > > > > > > Does anyone know about BST (Lee Gerdes system) or is the TLC system better > > > ?**** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Thank You,**** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Dan**** > > > > > > **** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Helvey > > chelvey@ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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