Re: The Seven Teachings

[Guest guest]

>

> The Seven Teachings

>

> Honesty

>

> To achieve honesty within yourself to recognize who and what you

> are, do this and you can be honest with all others.

>

> Humility

>

> Humble yourself and recognize that no matter how much you think

you

> know, you know very little of all the universe.

>

> Truth

>

> To learn truth, to live with truth and to walk with truth,to speak

> truth.

>

> Wisdom

>

> To have wisdom is to know the difference between good and bad and

to

> know the result of your actions.

>

> Love

>

> Unconditional love to know that when people are weak they need

your

> love the most, that your love is given freely and you cannot put

> conditions on it or your love is not true .

>

> Respect

>

> Respect others, their beliefs and respect yourself. If you cannot

> show respect you cannot expect respect to be given.

>

> Bravery

>

> To be brave is to do something right even if you know it's going

to

> hurt you.

>

> Raven

>

A path to follow if only I can.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Kim wrote: " A path to follow if only I can. "

You can.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Who first taught those seven teachings — when, where, and to whom?

Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone -

handwritingrepair@... - telephone 518/482-6763

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

Order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link gets me 5% - 15% commission)

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[Guest guest]

Kate wrote: " Who first taught those seven teachings — when, where,

and to whom? "

*sigh* Kate, you know I am Métis. You know I follow my Aboriginal

culture.

Everyone who has been here any length of time (you included) know that

from time to time, I have posted the Stories ... of Bear, of Raven, of

Blue Heron, and more. When I have posted these stories, you have never

asked me who first told those stories -- when, where and to whom.

I have posted of the Sacred Hoops and I have posted the Sacred Laws,

and you have never asked me who first shared this spirituality --

when, where and with whom.

Why do you ask now about these Seven Teachings?

Raven

[Guest guest]

On 15 Jul 2006 ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> Everyone who has been here any length of time (you included) know that

> from time to time, I have posted the Stories ... of Bear, of Raven, of

> Blue Heron, and more. When I have posted these stories, you have never

> asked me who first told those stories -- when, where and to whom.

the answer:

> *sigh* Kate, you know I am Métis. You know I follow my Aboriginal

> culture.

I think most people recognize those stories as part of Native

American Aboriginal spirituality. I at least have heard similar

stories.

> Why do you ask now about these Seven Teachings?

I think because it wasn't clear as to the origin. Also, these

have a more direct " teaching " nature, meaning they seem to be

taught by someone. The stories do their own teaching.

At least that's my take. I didn't ask the question, but the

same question occurred to me.

- s

[Guest guest]

The attitude your letter shows disinclines me to tell you why I had

come to care to know what individual, when, and where, first said

these things.

Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone -

[Guest guest]

Raven wrote: " Why do you ask now about these Seven Teachings?

Stan wrote: " I think because it wasn't clear as to the origin. Also,

these have a more direct " teaching " nature, meaning they seem to be

taught by someone. The stories do their own teaching. "

The Sacred Hoops and the Sacred Laws are also of a more

direct " teaching " nature but Kate never questioned those in this way --

or any other way -- when I posted them some months back.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Raven because of this and other posts I have looked online for more

stories handed down orally by Metis and other Aboriginal cultures.

All have a reason for being and passing along to those who care to

listen. Curiosity compels some to look for the origins of the tales

as I have done. I would like to find more of the stories and

teachings rather than the history of the peoples. History to me is

interesting enough but I find the stories touch me and stay with me.

When you write them for us to read I too am curious but by nature will

look up all I can find so as to have a good conversation.

Can you recommend a book to find at the library and have you learned

them through oral teachings?

Kim

[Guest guest]

Kim wrote: " History to me is interesting enough but I find the

stories touch me and stay with me. When you write them for us to read

I too am curious but by nature will look up all I can find so as to

have a good conversation. "

Unless an author's name is found with the story (as has been the case

in one instance where I shared a story with another and therefore

provided the author's name), the stories and teachings are a spoken

tradition. I know that some write the stories down but it is not so

we do not forget them but rather so that others may experience them

and take from them the lessons they need to learn.

If the stories or teachings are not understood as they are told, it is

because the person who does not understand is not ready for the lesson

held within the story or the teaching.

Many stories speak of the first people -- the Anishinabe -- not unlike

how Christians speak of Adam and Eve and their descendants. And many

of our stories are not unlike the stories of the Old Book of the

Christian Bible. However, there are certain distinct differences that

make our spirituality apart from other spiritualities and religions.

And for the most part, the stories and teachings are not told so

discussion may happen. They are told so one may become introspective

and find within himself (or herself as the case may be) the answers

that are there to be found. The lesson one finds in one story may not

be the lesson another finds in that same story, even if the two have

heard the story or teaching at the same time by the same Story Teller.

Kim wrote: " Can you recommend a book to find at the library and have

you learned them through oral teachings? "

All that I know, I have learned from listening to Story Tellers and

Elders, although I do own a book that tells the stories of the 13

Moons of Turtle (the turtle's shell shares with the moon the cycles of

a full year). I am sorry I cannot recommend any books but I share the

stories and teachings as I am moved to share them.

Perhaps the Search Function will work well in this instance if you

search using " The Story of ... " since this is the title I have given

almost all the stories I have shared. You could then copy ahd paste

them and keep them in your own personal collection.

Perhaps I will share the story of when Raven was killed. I shared

this story yesterday with another.

Raven (who, of course, has more than a small handful of Stories of

Raven oddly enough)

[Guest guest]

That's it for me, Raven. I've had it with your superior attitude. You

could have followed your own Seven Teachings and taken the high road,

but no, instead you chose to interpret Kate's question negatively. I

have tried to give your posts the benefit of the doubt time and time

again, but this is the final straw for me. I'm removing myself from

this list.

Thanks everybody, it's been informative.

Jill

" Who first taught those seven teachings — when, where,

> and to whom? "

>

> *sigh* Kate, you know I am Métis. You know I follow my Aboriginal

> culture.

>

> Everyone who has been here any length of time (you included) know

that

> from time to time, I have posted the Stories ... of Bear, of Raven,

of

> Blue Heron, and more. When I have posted these stories, you have

never

> asked me who first told those stories -- when, where and to whom.

>

> I have posted of the Sacred Hoops and I have posted the Sacred

Laws,

> and you have never asked me who first shared this spirituality --

> when, where and with whom.

>

> Why do you ask now about these Seven Teachings?

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

This is a shame. I read the same post and had a different take

altogether. I thought Raven was frustrated that in the past she

posted about herself and when someone forgets what she told us about

herself, it may have hurt. The sigh is what made me think that.

As for her question to Kate, maybe you could take it as a reprimand

for Kate's curiosity but I took as Raven wanting to understand Kate

better. Wanting to know why now and not before seems reasonable to

me.

Kim

" Who first taught those seven teachings — when,

where,

> > and to whom? "

> >

> > *sigh* Kate, you know I am Métis. You know I follow my

Aboriginal

> > culture.

> >

> > Everyone who has been here any length of time (you included)

know

> that

> > from time to time, I have posted the Stories ... of Bear, of

Raven,

> of

> > Blue Heron, and more. When I have posted these stories, you have

> never

> > asked me who first told those stories -- when, where and to

whom.

> >

> > I have posted of the Sacred Hoops and I have posted the Sacred

> Laws,

> > and you have never asked me who first shared this spirituality --

> > when, where and with whom.

> >

> > Why do you ask now about these Seven Teachings?

> >

> > Raven

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Re:

> The Sacred Hoops and the Sacred Laws are also of a more

> direct " teaching " nature but Kate never questioned those in this way --

> or any other way -- when I posted them some months back.

I missed those postings. Somewhere along the line, for a while, my

computer unaccountably tagged as " spam " a great many e-mails from

autism listservs.

Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone -

[Guest guest]

>

> This is a shame. I read the same post and had a different take

> altogether. I thought Raven was frustrated that in the past she

> posted about herself and when someone forgets what she told us about

> herself, it may have hurt. The sigh is what made me think that.

>

> As for her question to Kate, maybe you could take it as a reprimand

> for Kate's curiosity but I took as Raven wanting to understand Kate

> better. Wanting to know why now and not before seems reasonable to

> me.

>

> Kim

Thank you for understanding, Kim.

Raven

[Guest guest]

ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> > As for her question to Kate, maybe you could take it as a reprimand

> > for Kate's curiosity but I took as Raven wanting to understand Kate

> > better. Wanting to know why now and not before seems reasonable to

> > me.

I think I can understand why the questions in the first place and why

someone would consider Raven's response in a negative light.

The way Raven presented her seven teachings read to me as if she was

presenting them as an ultimate undisputed truth. In reality it is a

believe or a faith of Raven's passed down in the oral tradition of he

ancestors. Such statements should always be presented in context. They

are not " Truths " . They are simply teachings or believes, no more valid

or invalid than the Bible, the Koran or hundreds of other teachings.

I too understood Raven as being on the defensive. I interpreted that as

her questioning these same believes. All the more reason for us to ask

what the basis is for these teachings. Personally I think it was a very

valid and legitimate request. Raven's response devalued those same

teachings.

Ace

[Guest guest]

Regarding Raven's question as to why ask now, I thought it was

straightforward. I presume its meaning reasonable in that I

presume it was not intended as adverse criticism.

Taken in a favourable light, the question could be rephrased,

" What was inspiring or different about this writing that caused

you to wonder about this writing in particular? "

- s

[Guest guest]

All right Kate,

I am going to say a few things that have needed to be said for a long

time.

1) It is hard for me to tell whether or not you simply have

processing difficulties or if you enjoy harrassing members.

2) Your OWN attitude disinclines us to respond to you in a way that

causes us to care to get to know you.

Time and time again many of us have posted things that reflect our

own religious beliefs or our own cultural values, and while you have

taken an interest in them, sometimes you turn our statements back on

ourselves seemingly out of spite rather than because you are

interested in debate or learning more about what we believe.

I know that you have said that you are having trouble with your own

spiritual beliefs, but that is no reason to assault members who are

firmly ingrained in theirs.

The fact that your parents may have mistreated you in the past in

regard to your religion tells me that your problem ought to be with

your parents, not with your religion. And certainly we should not be

blamed for taking the time to study and feel comfortable with our

beliefs.

As for Raven's response to your inquiry, Raven is Metis and has

mentioned this on many occassions. You know this because in the past

she has, at your request, told you this during prior posts. Any story

she posts comes from their belif systems unless she posts otherwise.

If it'sa processing error on your part you are forgiven, as this

cannot be helped, but if you are coming out of hibernation again

simply to needle other members, then cut it out.

It is your own attitude that acauses people to answer you the way

they do.

Tom

Administrator

Re: The Seven Teachings

The attitude your letter shows disinclines me to tell you why I had

come to care to know what individual, when, and where, first said

these things.

Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone -

[Guest guest]

Jill,

You ought to know that Kate has repreatedly been the instigator of much

contention on this board and many people quit specifically because of

HER attititude. I have had Kate on moderation repreatedly.

Raven has been one of the few people to stick up for herself to Kate

and I applaud her for doing it. In fact I would encourage anyone and

everyone who has been affected negatively by Kate to do it to get it

out of their systems and to let Kate know how much she hurts people.

If you want to leave, that is your perrogative. But I think you are

making a big mistake because it is your own lack of clear vision on

this matter which is causing you to misinterpret the situation.

Tom

Administrator

Re: The Seven Teachings

That's it for me, Raven. I've had it with your superior attitude. You

could have followed your own Seven Teachings and taken the high road,

but no, instead you chose to interpret Kate's question negatively. I

have tried to give your posts the benefit of the doubt time and time

again, but this is the final straw for me. I'm removing myself from

this list.

Thanks everybody, it's been informative.

Jill

[Guest guest]

This happens because of processing errors.

Because of things that have happened here, I no longer care if anyone

here cares to recognize that fact or not.

Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone -

handwritingrepair@... - telephone 518/482-6763

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

Order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link gets me 5% - 15% commission)

And sign the " Politician Legibility Act " Petition:

http://www.iPetitions.com/petition/PoliticianLegibility

[Guest guest]

yes Ace,

But there is a long history here which you have not seen. You joined

the group long after Kate did.

Whenever the subject of religion crops up, Kate chimes in and

questions their belief systems and making them prove not just their

points but their entire religions even if she has the actual

religious texts at her disposal.

For instance in response to a Biblical discussion we once had here,

kate produced a whole list of supposed contradiction in the Bible and

claimed that the entire religion was invalid because of these

contradictions. I selected a few from the list at random, looked up

the passages they cited and showed that when you read the passages in

context, the supposed contradictions were not contradictory at all

and told her that if she wanted to see this for herself, all she had

to do was read the actual passages cited on her list for herself.

Despite the fact that her list was clearly anti-Christian and biased,

she affirmed that until the entire list was disproven, the whole

religion was contradictory and therefore invalid, yet she would not

look up a single passage herself to prove herself wrong.

To date she has contradicted:

1) Christianity.

2) Judiasm

3) Metis and Abenaki spirituality

4) And just some general beliefs, principles, and assertions where

she herself was to lazy to look up facts for herself after people got

tired of looking them up for her.

I applaud what raven has done.

Raven is trying NOT to enable Kate's slightly veiled antagonism. What

Kate does is sort of backhandly bully forum members, and I am pleased

to see that at least one of us has the guts to stick up for ourselves.

Tom

Administrator

I too understood Raven as being on the defensive. I interpreted that

as her questioning these same believes. All the more reason for us to

ask what the basis is for these teachings. Personally I think it was

a very valid and legitimate request. Raven's response devalued those

same teachings.

Ace

[Guest guest]

I became interested enough in the evident good of Raven's beliefs to

want to know more about specific sources: who first said this, when,

etc.

To use a Jewish or Christian analogy: if you heard " Love your neighbor

as yourself " and it made an impression on you, quite naturally you

might want to hear more about the source of the statement: not just

" this is a statement made in my religion " but what specific person

first said it, when, to whom/in what circumstances, etc.

Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone - handwritingrepair@... -

telephone 518/482-6763

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

Order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link gets me 5% - 15% commission)

And sign the " Politician Legibility Act " Petition:

http://www.iPetitions.com/petition/PoliticianLegibility

[Guest guest]

" This happens because of processing errors. Because of things that

have happened here, I no longer care if anyone here cares to

recognize that fact or not. "

Kate,

Exactly what it is that has happened here that has caused you to hate

the forums so much?

Let me tell you a few things that have caused me to take the actions

I did here in the past:

1)The purpose of these forums were to create a respite from all the

trolling, teasing, and, to put it bluntly, HATING that went on in

other forums. Inevitably, this hating was always caused by drug

addicts, anti-religious people, bigots, and liberals who would try to

foist their views on others whilst whining about conservative people

curtailing their " rights " to do anything. When those hateful and

hate-filled people wound up coming here to FAM, I let them stay out

of good will because I felt that everyone deserves a second chance

and that maybe by tbeing here they would learn to moderate their

behavior.

2)Turns out I was wrong to give them that second chance. Their

presence here shut up those whom they had already shut up on other

boards. Their presence here clouded people's thoughts and diluted

people's morality. Their presence here caused people to write me and

ask for their ejection of these haters, even as the haters themselves

wrote me hateful person e-mails whilst making snide remarks to all

members on MY forums. Their presence here taught me that my goodwill

was not only misplaced but scorned. Their presence here taught me

that there are people in this world who are so selfish that they

think their drugs, their lack of religion, their bigotry, their

liberality, their etc., gives them the right to steam roller over

other people who would like to see and make a more positive

difference in the world and undo the damage that has already been

done by hate-filled people.

3) So I ejected these hate-filled people or moderated them. And do

you know what? Now that Ken, , Rainbow, Lwaxy, and a bunch of

others whose names elude me at the moment are gone, I have gotten

nothing but praise from people in coming to me in my private inbox.

While I do not believe in censorship, I do believe that those who are

downtrodden deserve a voice. And that means shutting up those trolls

who cause other people to be afraid to post.

Maybe you hate this forum now because the days in which Inger would

have quietly tried to settle things are gone. I am much more blunt

than she is, and the reason is because I am sick of trolls getting

the upper hand and not getting what's due them. If you go

antagonizing people, then you ought to be made aware of just how much

you hurt people so that when you quit, it is NOT with the

satisfaction that you got your jabs in, but with the same painful

humiliation that you have made others feel.

Now think about how you were treated when you were little. Just

because you were treated that THEN way does not give you free license

to torment people here NOW. They've done nothing to you but try to

get along with you just as you once tried to do with other people.

You want to be a part of this forum? Then STOP trying to mess around

with members and START talking deep from the heart like the rest of

us do.

Take a risk. You just might get a reward that way.

And for the record, I don't think you are going to get many of the

answers you are looking for about life and religion where you are

currently looking. To understand life you need to understand people.

That means associating with them. If you want to undberstand

religion, then you have to associate with people who practice it.

Here we have people practicing many faiths and those who practice no

faith at all. We have a slice of humanity, albiet without the riff-

raff. So participate what do you say and see what happens.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Re:

On 7/15/06, environmental1st2003 <no_reply > wrote:

>

>

> " This happens because of processing errors. Because of things that

> have happened here, I no longer care if anyone here cares to

> recognize that fact or not. "

>

> Kate,

>

> Exactly what it is that has happened here that has caused you to hate

> the forums so much?

I don't " hate the forums. " This prevents my answering a question which

assumes otherwise. I do hate the occasional snooty answers (as they

appear to me) to questions I regard as reasonable. However, I don't

see that as " hating the forums. "

> Now think about how you were treated when you were little.

It had very little in common with anything I do here.

For example:

Whom here have I forced to lick dirty floors on a fast-day of their religion?

Like others here, I've done nothing (for the past few months, at

least) but try to get along.

I tell the truth as I see it. I ask questions as I see them. If that

does not " talk deep from the heart, " Tom, then so much the worse for

" talking deep from the heart. "

Friends of mine, for the record, include practitioners of various

standard and nonstandard religions. I'd hoped to make more such

friends here, but will resign myself to the likelihood that this won't

happen.

Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone -

[Guest guest]

Ace wrote: " The way Raven presented her seven teachings read to me

as if she was presenting them as an ultimate undisputed truth. "

Actually, Ace that is how *YOU* painted my post because my post only

indicated I was posting Seven Teachings.

Ace wrote: " Such statements should always be presented in context.

They are not " Truths " . "

Show me where I posted that these were undisputable truths, Ace.

You cannot therefore claim this because in doing so, you are

misrepresenting not only the post, but how the post was presented.

Ace wrote: " They are simply teachings or believes, no more valid or

invalid than the Bible, the Koran or hundreds of other teachings. "

None of my posts have invalidated any other beliefs, religions or

spiritualities. You cannot therefore claim this because in doing

so, you are mispresenting not only the post, but how the post was

presented as well as the person who posted.

Ace wrote: " I too understood Raven as being on the defensive. "

That is your misinterpretation on your part. You did not ask me

therefore you are assuming this to be true. Furthermore, if you

would have acquainted yourself with how I post (without emotion for

the most part), you would have known better than to assume something

which is not rooted in facts.

Ace wrote: " All the more reason for us to ask what the basis is for

these teachings. "

Kate did not ask the basis for these teachings. Kate asked who

first spoke these teachings -- when, where and to whom. I do not

ask who first spoke the teachings of the Koran or the Bible or any

other spiritual text nor do I ask when they were spoken or where or

to whom. I allow the person who is sharing to add as much

information as is required or as they feel comfortable sharing.

Do you know who first spoke of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden --

when, where and to whom? If you were to post that story, I would

take it at face value for what you presented it to be without

questioning its validity by demanding to know the who, the when, the

where and to whom.

Ace wrote: " Raven's response devalued those same teachings. "

You are sadly mistaken, Ace. My response most assuredly did not

devalue those teachings.

In the not too distant past, Kate has posted derogatory remarks

about my Aboriginal background. I am certain you can understand why

I took the time to clarify Kate's reasons for posting as she did in

response to my post.

I was not rude to Kate. I was not disrespectful to Kate. I did not

refuse Kate information. I asked why she made the request now about

THIS post when she has never made a similar request about other

posts I have made that are in the same vein.

Your false accusations against me, however, are exceptionally rude

and uncalled for.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Okay Kate,

I hope you do not view this as an attack because it is not meant to

be. But if you've noticed, there are a couple of members here who are

having problems in the personal lives. Not one word of support from

you for them I noticed. Also, with the exception of two posts where

you began to talk about some of the things that have happened to you

in depth, no one here really knows much about you even though they

themselves have shared deep things about themselves at much risk to

their own emotional well-being.

It irked me, because it seems to me that whenever you post, it is

usually to nitpick at someone for something.

Not an easy way to make friends.

You are a hard person to get to know. I do want you to be able to

feel free here and like you can get along with everyone. How to

facilitate this is the question.

Tom

Administrator

Friends of mine, for the record, include practitioners of various

standard and nonstandard religions. I'd hoped to make more such

friends here, but will resign myself to the likelihood that this won't

happen.