Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to

agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients.

I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand

new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and

shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping.

Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.

Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN

> >

> > Mike et al.,

> >

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients

> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity " into " the client? In NF

> > we make a big deal of saying " nothing is going INTO you. We are just

> > monitoring your own electrical output. " I know that physical therapists use

> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this

> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

I use CES all the time with my patients. I find dramatic increases in mental flexibility with my most severely depressed patients. I combine it with CBT or AVE and treat daily for 5 weeks. Remarkable. I find the alpha-stim's wave form though works best. From: Joan Vonniessen <joanvon@...> Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 11:52 AM Subject: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Hello,

I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients.

I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping.

Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.

Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN

> >

> > Mike et al.,

> >

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients

> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF

> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just

> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use

> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this

> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

I just paid $249 + $15 shipping for mine via The Learning Curve. Margoshes, Ph.D.NY State Licensed PsychologistOn Jan 4, 2012, at 11:52 AM, "Joan Vonniessen" <joanvon@...> wrote:

Hello,

I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients.

I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping.

Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.

Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN

> >

> > Mike et al.,

> >

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients

> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF

> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just

> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use

> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this

> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]



Can any one on this list point to the actual lanquage of thier licences that allows for use of CES on clients?

I have had a CES device for many years. It realy does not do much for me although it did help a friend of mine to sleep better when they got the shingles.

Bruce

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.> > > > Liz

[Guest guest]

What brand are you selling? I was looking for Pals CES

Pam R.

It is not what you "gather" but what you "scatter" that tells what kind of life you have lived!

From: thbarclay@...Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:59:16 -0800Subject: Re: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

I use CES all the time with my patients. I find dramatic increases in mental flexibility with my most severely depressed patients. I combine it with CBT or AVE and treat daily for 5 weeks. Remarkable. I find the alpha-stim's wave form though works best.

From: Joan Vonniessen <joanvon@...> Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 11:52 AMSubject: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Hello,I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients. I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping. Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN> >> > Mike et al.,> > > > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.> > > > Liz>

[Guest guest]

Same as with biofeedback:From http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/psych/psych-licques.htm(New York State)What is the definition of practice in psychology in the newly amended Article 153 that becomes effective on September 1, 2003?Definition of the practice of psychology. 1. The practice of psychology is the observation, description, evaluation, interpretation, and modification of behavior for the purpose of preventing or eliminating symptomatic, maladaptive or undesired behavior; enhancing interpersonal relationships, personal, group or organizational effectiveness and work and/or life adjustment; and improving behavioral health and/or mental health. The practice includes, but is not limited to psychological (including neuropsychological) testing and counseling; psychoanalysis; psychotherapy; the diagnosis and treatment of mental, nervous, emotional, cognitive or behavioral disorders, disabilities, ailments or illnesses, alcoholism, substance abuse, disorders of habit or conduct, the psychological aspects of physical illness, accident, injury or disability, psychological aspects of learning (including learning disorders); and the use of accepted classification systems.The term "diagnosis and treatment" means the appropriate psychological diagnosis and the ordering or providing of treatment according to need. Treatment includes, but is not limited to counseling, psychotherapy, marital or family therapy, psychoanalysis, and other psychological interventions, including verbal, behavioral, or other appropriate means as defined in regulations promulgated by the commissioner......So, the specifically relevant words are:"but is not limited to" and "other appropriate means"(ha)Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.NY State Licensed PsychologistOn Jan 4, 2012, at 12:49 PM, "Bruce Z. Berman" <MindFitness@...> wrote:



Can any one on this list point to the actual lanquage of thier licences that allows for use of CES on clients?

I have had a CES device for many years. It realy does not do much for me although it did help a friend of mine to sleep better when they got the shingles.

Bruce

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.> > > > Liz

[Guest guest]

PamI use the apha-stim 100 but I also use the device. I use the for AVE though and not CES. The wave form the alpha-stim uses is much different than the and I get better results with the alpha-stim. You can purchase the alpha-stim for 995. You can pick them up much cheaper at various conferences. I bought mine for $720. US dollars. From: Pam R. <pmillr@...>

Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

What brand are you selling? I was looking for Pals CES

Pam R.

It is not what you "gather" but what you "scatter" that tells what kind of life you have lived!

From: thbarclay@...Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:59:16 -0800Subject: Re: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

I use CES all the time with my patients. I find dramatic increases in mental flexibility with my most severely depressed patients. I combine it with CBT or AVE and treat daily for 5 weeks. Remarkable. I find the alpha-stim's wave form though works best.

From: Joan Vonniessen <joanvon@...> Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 11:52 AMSubject: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Hello,I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients. I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping. Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN>

>> > Mike et al.,> > > > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.> > > > Liz>

[Guest guest]

Please take me off email group From: Tim Barclay <thbarclay@...> " " < > Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 1:48 PM Subject: Re: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

PamI use the apha-stim 100 but I also use the device. I use the for AVE though and not CES. The wave form the alpha-stim uses is much different than the and I get better results with the alpha-stim. You can purchase the alpha-stim for 995. You can pick them up much cheaper at various conferences. I bought mine for $720. US dollars. From: Pam R. <pmillr@...>

Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

What brand are you selling? I was looking for Pals CES

Pam R.

It is not what you "gather" but what you "scatter" that tells what kind of life you have lived!

From: thbarclay@...Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:59:16 -0800Subject: Re: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

I use CES all the time with my patients. I find dramatic increases in mental flexibility with my most severely depressed patients. I combine it with CBT or AVE and treat daily for 5 weeks. Remarkable. I find the alpha-stim's wave form though works best.

From: Joan Vonniessen <joanvon@...> Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 11:52 AMSubject: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Hello,I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients. I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping. Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN>

>> > Mike et al.,> > > > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.> > > > Liz>

[Guest guest]

The HealthPax CES device available from the brain-trainer web site:

http://www.brain-trainer.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?shop=get_item & item_id=84

is electrically identical to the Alpha-Stim 100 setting.

Ames

AlertFocus.com

> > >

> > > Mike et al.,

> > >

> > > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients

> > > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity " into " the client? In

NF

> > > we make a big deal of saying " nothing is going INTO you. We are just

> > > monitoring your own electrical output. " I know that physical therapists

use

> > > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of

this

> > > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.

> > >

> > > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,I appreciate that info since I ordered the HealthPax!LizOn Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 11:14 AM, <garyames@...> wrote:

 

The HealthPax CES device available from the brain-trainer web site:

http://www.brain-trainer.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?shop=get_item & item_id=84

is electrically identical to the Alpha-Stim 100 setting.

Ames

AlertFocus.com

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I, in the past, have pointed out the great use of CES in various states of brain recovery from trauma to cognitive problems. If anybody is still with some worries about this procedure, can always use the EEG to identify the electric power one puts on people's head. I just use monopolar setup on the Cz. One has to be aware that some of the EEG comes from the CES output but, depending on the type of instrument in use, one can always see the sort of signal is going in, its strength and frequency

[Guest guest]

Tim,Would you please give us more information on what conditions you're using the CES + AVE with, some examples of AVE settings you're using.Thanks very much,Jill

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Tim Barclay <thbarclay@...> wrote:

 

I use CES all the time with my patients. I find dramatic increases in mental flexibility with my most severely depressed patients. I combine it with CBT or AVE and treat daily for 5 weeks. Remarkable. I find the alpha-stim's wave form though works best.

From: Joan Vonniessen <joanvon@...>

Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 11:52 AM

Subject: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

 

Hello,

I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients.

I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping.

Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.

Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN

> >

> > Mike et al.,

> >

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients

> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity " into " the client? In NF

> > we make a big deal of saying " nothing is going INTO you. We are just

> > monitoring your own electrical output. " I know that physical therapists use

> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this

> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

I use it with depression, anxiety, adhd, and autism. The AVE devices have preloaded protocols for attention mood, etc.. These protocols target different frequencies within a given bandwidth, e.g., lower-higher alpha, SMR, or a combination. The CES targets more of an alpha state. I have great results on the populations mentioned. However, I also combine the use of CBT with depression and anxiety. I've been using CES and an SMR protocol on a 9 year old autistic male for the past 5 weeks. Teacher reports, who have not known about the treatment, have indicated that he has been more flexible and is doing school work with much less resistance. Handwriting has also improved. From: j swartz <jillswartz@...> Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2012 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Tim,Would you please give us more information on what conditions you're using the CES + AVE with, some examples of AVE settings you're using.Thanks very much,Jill

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Tim Barclay <thbarclay@...> wrote:

I use CES all the time with my patients. I find dramatic increases in mental flexibility with my most severely depressed patients. I combine it with CBT or AVE and treat daily for 5 weeks. Remarkable. I find the alpha-stim's wave form though works best.

From: Joan Vonniessen <joanvon@...>

Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 11:52 AM

Subject: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Hello,

I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients.

I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping.

Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.

Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN

> >

> > Mike et al.,

> >

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients

> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF

> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just

> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use

> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this

> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

I use it with depression, anxiety, adhd, and autism. The AVE devices have preloaded protocols for attention mood, etc.. These protocols target different frequencies within a given bandwidth, e.g., lower-higher alpha, SMR, or a combination. The CES targets more of an alpha state. I have great results on the populations mentioned. However, I also combine the use of CBT with depression and anxiety. I've been using CES and an SMR protocol on a 9 year old autistic male for the past 5 weeks. Teacher reports, who have not known about the treatment, have indicated that he has been more flexible and is doing school work with much less resistance. Handwriting has also improved. From: j swartz <jillswartz@...> Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2012 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Tim,Would you please give us more information on what conditions you're using the CES + AVE with, some examples of AVE settings you're using.Thanks very much,Jill

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Tim Barclay <thbarclay@...> wrote:

I use CES all the time with my patients. I find dramatic increases in mental flexibility with my most severely depressed patients. I combine it with CBT or AVE and treat daily for 5 weeks. Remarkable. I find the alpha-stim's wave form though works best.

From: Joan Vonniessen <joanvon@...>

Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 11:52 AM

Subject: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Hello,

I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients.

I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping.

Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.

Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN

> >

> > Mike et al.,

> >

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients

> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF

> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just

> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use

> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this

> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

Regarding the work with the autistic patient, understand that I'm not saying this is a cure all. However, some gains in functioning and mental flexibility can be achieved and any gains are important. When I first started, he couldn't sit for 5 mins without being quiet or engaging in stereotypic movement. By the end of the 5 weeks, he was able to sit quietly on his own, w/o prompting for 60 mins of treatment. This was a huge deal for the parents. Results also will differ per patient as the disorder has a vary wide spectrum. From: j swartz <jillswartz@...> Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2012 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Tim,Would you please give us more information on what conditions you're using the CES + AVE with, some examples of AVE settings you're using.Thanks very much,Jill

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Tim Barclay <thbarclay@...> wrote:

I use CES all the time with my patients. I find dramatic increases in mental flexibility with my most severely depressed patients. I combine it with CBT or AVE and treat daily for 5 weeks. Remarkable. I find the alpha-stim's wave form though works best.

From: Joan Vonniessen <joanvon@...>

Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 11:52 AM

Subject: Re: CES as an easy and effective cost-reducing adjunct to neurofeedback-

Hello,

I am replying to the post regarding the effectiveness of CES and I would have to agree that it has been very effective in helping many of my cients.

I have 8 brand new CES devices for sale that I am clearing out. They are brand new still in the package. They normally go for $350 ($400 with taxes and shipping) I am selling them for $200 each with free shipping.

Please contact me by e-mail and I will send it out ASAP.

Joan vonNiessen RN BTSN

> >

> > Mike et al.,

> >

> > I was just wondering: would CES be more problemmatic to do with clients

> > than NF because in CES you are putting electricity "into" the client? In NF

> > we make a big deal of saying "nothing is going INTO you. We are just

> > monitoring your own electrical output." I know that physical therapists use

> > this sort of thing (I have been a grateful recipient myself of some of this

> > type of physical therapy) but they're licensed to do so.

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

Hope I didn't kindle things too much. As to the " proprietary " waveforms, this

mindalive webpage indicates that they too use specialized, randomization,

nothing too " proprietary " it seems(I think this has been presented before):

http://www.mindalive.com/1_0/techtalkceswaveforms.htm

The Oasis, on the other-hand, utilizes randomization where the pulses are

delayed or advanced somewhat to reduce habituation.* The randomization from an

Oasis, as seen on an oscilloscope, is shown in Figure 3.

Some manufacturers promote that they use a unique, " special " waveform, which is

better than what others use. The truth is that there have been NO comparative

studies of different waveforms. Almost all CES and Micro-TENS research has used

the simplest waveform to generate, which is a square wave (on and off). Although

simple and inexpensive to generate, the down side to a square wave is that the

stimulus can really " sting, " especially when the connection isn't very good. So

people with naturally thicker and/or drier skin have more concerns than a person

with thinner, moister skin. We have found that by rounding the front end of the

pulse, so it doesn't turn on so fast*, the stinging/burning sensation is reduced

by 80% without loss of effectiveness. This increases user compliance, as most

people won't use something that hurts! Figure 2 shows an oscilloscope tracing of

our rounded waveform versus a traditional square wave.

(figures did not copy over)

Mike