Re: ESP and such WAS: Cya Folks

[Guest guest]

When Raven doesn't understand something, she asks about it and nobody objects.

When I don't understand something, I ask about it and many people object.

To me, this resembles a double standard.

Raven writes:

> perhaps couching your

> question with an indication as to what causes you difficulty with the

> words would help people understand where you are coming from.

Can you please give me a specific example, Raven, of just how you

think my question should have looked? What specifics should my

question have included (that it didn't include) — and/or what

specifics shouldn't it have included (that it did include)?

I'd thought I'd indicated pretty clearly what caused me difficulty

with " inadamate " and " symantics " : the fact that I didn't know these

words and couldn't find them in dictionaries. What other, or clearer,

indication ought I to have given?

Re:

> When I

> misunderstood how the word " resent " was meant to be used in a previous

> post, I merely pointed out that I was confused and could not

> understand what was meant. The explanation was simple and straight

> forward and no one felt diminished for me asking what was meant.

I can't control whether someone else does, or doesn't " feel

diminished " when reading a question. I cannot take responsibility (or

credit) for someone else's feelings.

>

> So it's not really a case of requiring ESP as much as a case of asking

> what is meant and giving an indication why you feel the need to ask.

I asked for the meanings.

I indicated why I felt the need to ask.

But it seems that, when I do these things, that doesn't count. I'd

like to know why.

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

Its in the way you ask Kate, You imply stupidity on the behalf of the other person, the way you phrase things imply that you think your superior to everyone else in the group and that the rest of us are too stupid to talk to you. You don't come out and say your confused or misunderstand you say things like these words don't exist. You take fault with everything that other people say and nit pick on semantics in a mean (perceived) way not asking for clarification. Maybe if you tried being a little nicer with the way you ask for things it wouldn't come off as you picking on people. I see your posts and Ignore them most of the time, I don't even take the time to read them because I don't want to get angry at the way you write. In effect I don't read most of your posts, your style of writing has caused me to turn you off. Beth, Co-administrator Kate Gladstone

<handwritingrepair@...> wrote: When Raven doesn't understand something, she asks about it and nobody objects.When I don't understand something, I ask about it and many people object.To me, this resembles a double standard.Raven writes:> perhaps couching your> question with an indication as to what causes you difficulty with the> words would help people understand where you are coming from.Can you please give me a specific example, Raven, of just how youthink my question should have looked? What specifics should myquestion have included (that it didn't include) — and/or whatspecifics shouldn't it have included (that it did include)?I'd thought I'd indicated pretty clearly what caused me difficultywith "inadamate" and "symantics": the fact that I didn't know thesewords and

couldn't find them in dictionaries. What other, or clearer,indication ought I to have given?Re:> When I> misunderstood how the word "resent" was meant to be used in a previous> post, I merely pointed out that I was confused and could not> understand what was meant. The explanation was simple and straight> forward and no one felt diminished for me asking what was meant.I can't control whether someone else does, or doesn't "feeldiminished" when reading a question. I cannot take responsibility (orcredit) for someone else's feelings.>> So it's not really a case of requiring ESP as much as a case of asking> what is meant and giving an indication why you feel the need to ask.I asked for the meanings.I indicated why I felt the need to ask.But it seems that, when I do these things, that doesn't count. I'dlike to know why.Kate GladstoneFAM Secret

Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this e-mail address: -owner Check the Links section for more FAM forums. Our website is here: http://www.geocities.com/environmental1st2003/FAM_Secret_Society.htmland you may add to it on this page: http://www.geocities.com/environmental1st2003/Main6.html

[Guest guest]

Kate wrote: " When Raven doesn't understand something, she asks

about it and nobody objects. When I don't understand something, I

ask about it and many people object. To me, this resembles a double

standard. "

Raven participates quite a bit on the board and as such, people know

that I do not intend to cause harm to others with my questions. I

preface potentially difficult questions with an explanation as to

why I am asking the question. This is not the case with you Kate

and you know it therefore the position you appear to be taking --

one of being a victim of a double standard -- is unfounded.

Raven writes: " ... perhaps couching your question with an

indication as to what causes you difficulty with the words would

help people understand where you are coming from.

Kate wrote: " Can you please give me a specific example, Raven, of

just how you think my question should have looked? What specifics

should my question have included (that it didn't include) — and/or

what specifics shouldn't it have included (that it did include)? "

You have a past history on this board of nitpicking other members

who may not be as proficient as you when it comes to English

therefore you have already set the tone for your posts in this

regard. Because of this, there is all the more reason to preface

your questions about language that you claim are unclear for you

with an explanation as to why you require an explanation.

You posted a terse one line question knowing that mimi's first

language is not English and knowing that she has been known to

struggle with certain aspects of the language.

My response to mimi's use of the word 'resent' was respectful not

only of Kim's feelings but also respectful of mimi's feelings as it

explained that *I* was confused by the use of the word and why I was

confused by the use of the word. It did not imply that mimi's use

of language was inferior but rather implied that *I* was unable to

decipher what she clearly meant. In other words, I undertook the

burden of the confusion and did not place it on any one else's

shoulders.

Those who have been posting to this board and who know of your

occasional posts know that you are an intelligent woman, Kate. It

is not out of the realm of possibility to know that you have a more

solid grasp of the language than does mimi. As such, more is asked

of you -- by society in general -- with regards to making allowances

for mimi's weakness with certain aspects of English.

Kate wrote: " I'd thought I'd indicated pretty clearly what caused

me difficulty with " inadamate " and " symantics " : the fact that I

didn't know these words and couldn't find them in dictionaries. What

other, or clearer, indication ought I to have given? "

Please re-read your post for tone. I do not post lightly when I

point out that a fellow forum member is being overly critical of

another fellow forum member. It's not my place to be an admin in

this forum but it is my place as a caring individual to point out

when someone is being unfair (at best) to another.

Kate wrote: " I can't control whether someone else does, or

doesn't " feel diminished " when reading a question. I cannot take

responsibility (or credit) for someone else's feelings. "

True but you have a responsibility to consider how another could

feel by your abruptness, by your harshness, by your forthrightness,

by any of your actions. We all do. This is not unique to you.

Kate wrote: " I asked for the meanings. I indicated why I felt the

need to ask. "

I responded to these points above.

Kate wrote: " But it seems that, when I do these things, that

doesn't count. I'd like to know why. "

Firstly, Kate, playing the victim does not wear well on you. As a

strong -- and oftentimes dominant -- personality, it goes against

everything that you have posted about yourself and the manner in

which you have posted in the past. While you would like to think

that you have 'asked for meanings' and you feel you have indicated

why you felt the need to ask, you have, in fact, satisfied the first

part but not the second part of your claim.

And as I said, since a leopard cannot change its spots, it is hard

for some to understand -- without additional explanation from you in

an initial post -- that you are changing your spots and asking for

context when you have been known in every instance in the past in

similar situations to use these occasions to highlight another

poster's shortcomings with the English language.

There is no double standard, Kate. People who are known in group

settings are treated in the fashion that is consistent with how they

routinely present themselves. If you would like to change people's

perceptions of you in this regard, it will require more effort on

your part than one-line sentences jumping on two words that are

misspelled.

Raven

[Guest guest]

I am not upset. I know that sometimes, I know what I am saying but

other people don't. That is because I leave out a lot of information

and don't spell great. In conversation sometimes I speak like Yoda.

If one were to meet me; they would find that when I get tired I sound

like I should speak a foreign language.

I have not taken offence, my stress was in not having answers to the

questions and wanting to convey that I have no prejudicial feelings

of religion.

I was born in America speaking english, (so really I have no excuse)

but both of my parents came from different countries from each other

(Croatia, Iraq) and it was like living with two different countries.

Religion is difficult to discuss even if you are a Rabbi or Priest

etc. (besides within my family both are represented)

ps. I do feel that science will come to the conclusion that there is

a thinking entity that brings cohesion to the universe. Perhaps we

cannot even fathom the everything of the entity we precieve as G'd.

Science and logic do not disprove G'd. Scientology and aliens do not

disprove G'd.

The elegance and beauty of the universe, the equations all seem to

indicate and intelligent nexus.

I do not wish to fight with , but I do respectfully disagree

and have a different view. I used to believe much of what he

believes but over time I felt that additional information led me to

another direction.

In addition these posts are literally the best friendships I have

ever had. I feel no cost, friendships can cost soooo much, and that

is without intellectual conversation, or an exchange of

information/ideas. I think that is mostly what draws me to college.

(even though I am as old as many of the professors )

[Guest guest]

Beth informs me.

> Its in the way you ask Kate,

>You imply stupidity on the behalf of the other person,

>the way you phrase things imply that you think your superior to

everyone else in the group

>and that the rest of us are too stupid to talk to you.

If I really deemed the rest of us too stupid to talk to me, I'd have

long ago gone elsewhere.

Re:

>You don't come out and say your confused or misunderstand you say

things like these >words don't exist.

Okay — from now on, whenever I need info on something like this, I'll

just come out and say that I misunderstand or that something confuses

me.

Please notice that my recent query didn't say " these words don't

exist. " My message stated that I didn't know the words, and that I

hadn't managed to find them when I went to look them up.

It never occurred to me that someone would equate this (not

knowing a word already, and not managing to find it in the usual

place) with a claim that the word didn't exist. So I guess I really

must apologize for ever having said anything that I didn't mean that

way but that someone could decide I meant that way. Yes, Beth, II

should definitely have said it in the way that you suggest, and from

now on I will certainly do so.

Re saying things in a " mean (perceived) " way — the phrase " mean

(perceived) " confuses me. May I ask (without offense) what this phrase

means? (For example, does it stand for " something mean which people

perceive as mean, " or does it stand for " something not-mean which

people perceive as mean " ?)

>Maybe if you tried being a little nicer with the way you ask for

things it wouldn't come off >as you picking on people.

It would probably help if you could show me, side-by-side, a number of

specific examples of " not-nice " and " nice " ways of saying the things

that come off as picking on people — like the columns of sentences

that foreign-language textbooks have (with the wrong ways to say

things in one column, and then the right ways to say the same things

in the other column). This might let me learn or deduce how to change

a " not-nice " statement into a corresponding " nice " statement before I

make it.

Re Raven's message: thanks, Raven, for a specific suggestion which I

will also apply:

> " ... perhaps couching your question with an

> indication as to what causes you difficulty with the words would

> help people understand where you are coming from.

Whenever I know what causes me difficulty, I will do this. Understand,

please, that I cannot always see the cause of a difficulty I

experience.

> You posted a terse one line question knowing that mimi's first

> language is not English and knowing that she has been known to

> struggle with certain aspects of the language.

At the moment, I did not recall either of these facts. I have a very

poor memory for some facts (especially facts about people) that other

people think a person " should " remember automatically and easily.

Raven, I *meant* to imply in my own question what you implied in your

question: that I did not know what the other person meant (and that

this had to do with me, not with the other person).

I said that I (not the other person) did not know some words.

What should I have added to (or subtracted from) my statement in order

to convey this instead of letting it look as if I'd blamed the other

person?

Re:

> Please re-read your post for tone.

Sorry, I don't know how to " re-read a post for tone. " I don't know

what this means. Please show or tell me how to " re-read a post for

tone. "

Re:

> ... it is hard

> for some to understand -- without additional explanation from you in

> an initial post -- that you are changing your spots and asking for

> context ...

Good point, Raven. What can I do to make it easier for other people to

understand this?

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

Raven wrote: "Please re-read your post for tone." Kate answered: "Sorry, I don't know how to "re-read a post for tone." I don't know what this means. Please show or tell me how to "re-read a post for tone."

I re-read my posts for tone all the time because sometimes I sound more terse than I realize when I am typing my response to someone. In this respect, Kate, I *do* understand part of the difficulty you are experiencing.

An example of how the same thing can be said in two different ways is the comment my grandfather used to make about language. He would oftentimes say to people who were experiencing similar difficulties as you are experiencing --

There is a world of difference between saying "When I am with you, time stands still" and "You have a face that could stop a clock."

The end result is the same in that the reader gets the impression that time appears to have been suspended but the first comment is far gentler in delivery than the second comment. This is what is mean by "tone" when speaking of comments.

My suggestion is that when you re-read your post, you ask yourself if this will be taken similarly to the "time stands still" comment or will it be taken similarly to the "stop a clock" statement. If it will be taken more like the second comment, then re-word the harsher parts of your post.

Raven wrote: " ... it is hard for some to understand -- without additional explanation from you in an initial post -- that you are changing your spots and asking for context ..."

Kate answered: " Good point, Raven. What can I do to make it easier for other people to understand this?"

The fact that you have posted that you are trying to understand why you are mis-read is a good start. The fact that you are asking for suggestions is also a good start.

As I have posted before, you are very intelligent. It can sometimes work against you when you provide little or no context for others to frame your posts. What comes naturally to your thought process may not come quite as naturally to others. When you keep this in mind, it provides you with an opportunity to include this additional information to facilitate the framing of the post you have made.

I am not saying that you have to be apologetic for your intelligence only that you have to remember that not everyone thinks as you do (Theory of Mind) and you have to make allowances for same. This means you have to provide the additional information that you believe should be obvious if you want to ensure that others have a basic understanding of your thought processes.

I hope what I have posted makes sense to you, Kate. Thank you for asking for clarification and suggestions.Raven

[Guest guest]

Ok Kate, here it goes, I spent a great deal of time last night researching and making phone calls to my Jewish relatives, an to rabbi's that I know, in reference to the word bible. This is the Merian Webster definition of the word Main Entry: bi·ble Pronunciation: 'bI-b & lFunction: nounEtymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Medieval Latin biblia, from Greek, plural of biblion book, diminutive of byblos papyrus, book, from Byblos, ancient Phoenician city from which papyrus was exported1 capitalized a : the sacred scriptures of Christians comprising the Old Testament and the New Testament b : the sacred scriptures of some other

religion (as Judaism)2 obsolete : BOOK3 capitalized : a copy or an edition of the Bible4 : a publication that is preeminent especially in authoritativeness or wide readership <the fisherman's bible> <the bible of the entertainment industry> I was always told that for a jewish person to call a Jewish prayer book bible was an insult. My phone calls affirmed this completely. I was told by my grandfathers rabbi, the only time he referes to a Jewish prayer book as a bible is when he is talking to a christian audience and the only reason he does this is so that they understand what he is talking about realtively easily, and that only a Jewish person that wasn't very educated would refer to a Jewish prayer book as a bible, or that maybe it was used to

clarify it to a Christian audience, or that perhaps the person refering to a Jewish prayer book as a bible, was a messianic Jew, or a convert. I am sure that writing all of this down is a complete waste of time. If I don't give you a complete description along with back ground check of every person I have talked to and every site I looked at and you have had the time to check it out, even then my information still wont be good enough for you. The reason I know this is from past experiences with you and other peoples experiences with you. My perception of you is that you are someone that feigns stupidity every time you insult someone else, or do something mean spirited. You rarely if ever support anyone in the forums, you belittle and criticize every chance you get. In addition you are extremely argumentative, no argument is ever good enough for you, no proof is ever proof enough.

You may want to go back and read some of you past posts and they ways people respond to you to see why I am so skeptical of your posts. I have been hurt to many times in the past by people that act the way you do and I don't want to see my fellow forum members hurt. You have been asked in the past to let us see the human side of you, let your guard down, and admit a mistake for a change we all are human, we all make mistakes. Try to be a little kinder, sound out spellings, most of us that are not good spellers (ie me for one), spell things the way they sound, if you read it out loud you will understand what the person is trying to convey. Beth, Co-administrator Kate Gladstone <handwritingrepair@...> wrote: Beth informs me.> Its in

the way you ask Kate,>You imply stupidity on the behalf of the other person,>the way you phrase things imply that you think your superior toeveryone else in the group>and that the rest of us are too stupid to talk to you.If I really deemed the rest of us too stupid to talk to me, I'd havelong ago gone elsewhere.Re:>You don't come out and say your confused or misunderstand you saythings like these >words don't exist.Okay — from now on, whenever I need info on something like this, I'lljust come out and say that I misunderstand or that something confusesme.Please notice that my recent query didn't say "these words don'texist." My message stated that I didn't know the words, and that Ihadn't managed to find them when I went to look them up.It never occurred to me that someone would equate this (notknowing a word already, and not managing to find it in the usualplace) with

a claim that the word didn't exist. So I guess I reallymust apologize for ever having said anything that I didn't mean thatway but that someone could decide I meant that way. Yes, Beth, IIshould definitely have said it in the way that you suggest, and fromnow on I will certainly do so.Re saying things in a "mean (perceived)" way — the phrase "mean(perceived)" confuses me. May I ask (without offense) what this phrasemeans? (For example, does it stand for "something mean which peopleperceive as mean," or does it stand for "something not-mean whichpeople perceive as mean"?)>Maybe if you tried being a little nicer with the way you ask forthings it wouldn't come off >as you picking on people.It would probably help if you could show me, side-by-side, a number ofspecific examples of "not-nice" and "nice" ways of saying the thingsthat come off as picking on people — like the columns of sentencesthat

foreign-language textbooks have (with the wrong ways to saythings in one column, and then the right ways to say the same thingsin the other column). This might let me learn or deduce how to changea "not-nice" statement into a corresponding "nice" statement before Imake it.Re Raven's message: thanks, Raven, for a specific suggestion which Iwill also apply:> " ... perhaps couching your question with an> indication as to what causes you difficulty with the words would> help people understand where you are coming from.Whenever I know what causes me difficulty, I will do this. Understand,please, that I cannot always see the cause of a difficulty Iexperience.> You posted a terse one line question knowing that mimi's first> language is not English and knowing that she has been known to> struggle with certain aspects of the language.At the moment, I did not recall either of these

facts. I have a verypoor memory for some facts (especially facts about people) that otherpeople think a person "should" remember automatically and easily.Raven, I *meant* to imply in my own question what you implied in yourquestion: that I did not know what the other person meant (and thatthis had to do with me, not with the other person).I said that I (not the other person) did not know some words.What should I have added to (or subtracted from) my statement in orderto convey this instead of letting it look as if I'd blamed the otherperson?Re:> Please re-read your post for tone.Sorry, I don't know how to "re-read a post for tone." I don't knowwhat this means. Please show or tell me how to "re-read a post fortone."Re:> ... it is hard> for some to understand -- without additional explanation from you in> an initial post -- that you are changing your spots and asking

for> context ...Good point, Raven. What can I do to make it easier for other people tounderstand this?Kate GladstoneFAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. To contact the forum administrator, use this e-mail address: -owner Check the Links section for more FAM forums. Our website is here: http://www.geocities.com/environmental1st2003/FAM_Secret_Society.htmland you may add to it on this page: http://www.geocities.com/environmental1st2003/Main6.html

[Guest guest]

Now that everyone has said their piece, perhaps we can just move on to

regular conversation again?

Tom

Administrator

" Ok Kate, here it goes... "

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Beth, for checking things out, and for these comments:

> ... in

> reference to the word bible. ... definition ...

> I was always told that for a jewish person to call a Jewish prayer book

> bible was an insult.

Yes, because a Jewish prayer-book (a siddur) isn't a Bible (just as a

Catholic missal isn't a Gospel, for instance).

As your grandfather's rabbi (or any other rabbi) will confirm for you,

a Jewish prayer-book has a lot of quotes from the Bible but also has a

lot of stuff not found in the Bible.

Your statements helped, of course, so I feel sad that you decided in

advance that I'd regard the information as:

> ... a complete waste of time. If I don't give you a

> complete description along with back ground check of every person I have

> talked to ...

I don't ask for background checks.

> My perception of you is ... .

Would you care to know my perception of you?

> ... no argument is ever

> good enough for you, no proof is ever proof enough.

Raven and others here and elsewhere have provided proofs which I

regard as good enough for their statements.

> You have been asked in the past to let us see the human

> side of you,

When someone talks about the " human side " of an individual, I perceive

this as very demeaning. To me, talking about a person's " human side "

implies that the person also has a " not human " side. It sounds (to me)

like calling the person only partially human.

>let your guard down, and admit a mistake

More than once, here, I've admitted mistakes. I assume I made another

mistake by feeling what my previous sentence describes. I assume you

didn't really mean what it sounded to me like. Whatever you meant, I

suppose you meant it kindly.

> Try to be a little kinder, sound out

> spellings,

I did exactly that with " inadamate " and " symantics. " It didn't help

me, because it usually doesn't.

When I read a misspelling out loud, this normally helps me only with

misspellings that happen to exactly fit the sound of the word. For

anything a little " off " (like " inadamate " or whatever), if I don't

" get " it the first moment I see it, then I hardly ever " get " it by

sounding it out either.

(For instance, if somebody wrote something like " An thuh

Unnafrayd Anntt " instead of " Anny the Unafraid Ant " I probably would

get it right away, but if the person had written it as " Addy teh

Unyfraid Ate " or something similar ... in that case, the odds go

99-to-1 that I wouldn't get the words right even if I sounded them out

fifty or a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand times.)

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

I recognize that way of talking/writing that you describe, miminm. I

tend to talk in telegramstyle and leave people staring at me with big

eyes, wondering what I wanted to say. And like you, the more tired,

the worse it gets. But well, at least it gives others and myself some

reasons to laugh every now and than : )

>

> I am not upset. I know that sometimes, I know what I am saying but

> other people don't. That is because I leave out a lot of

information

> and don't spell great. In conversation sometimes I speak like Yoda.

> If one were to meet me; they would find that when I get tired I

sound

> like I should speak a foreign language.