Re: A question regarding coherence

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Muscle artifact makes coherences appear higher than they really are. They are

more of a problem in the temporal and occipital lobes then elsewhere (due to the

muscles in the jaw and in the neck, respectively).

Perhaps others can answer your other questions.

>

> A couple of newbie questions from a new trainer. I'm still learning so I

appreciate any help with these questions.

>

> My assessment and subsequent brain training using multiband coherence up and

down shows high, beta and high beta coherence at F3 and F4, and Low coherence in

the delta to alpha band along the midline (fz to Pz). What sort of changes

should I expect when training these sites down and up?

>

> I've read many references that muscle artifact is notorious for interfering

with coherence reading. Does that apply to both high and low coherence? I am

very careful to be as relaxed as possible when I train.

>

> Also during a brain training session, how much of a change should I expect to

see after the training is over? Is it common to see the results go the other

way?

> For example after training F3F4 multiband coherence down, I noticed after the

15 minutes my coherence didn't change much and perhaps got a little worse. Then

the subsequent session I noticed the coherence had settled to a lower level over

the past 24 hours? Is this similar to a gym session where after working a

muscle you get tired but the bulk of the work occurs during the recovery stage?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

the areas around F3 and F4 are for motor planing

(for movements of the upper extremities = arm )

and are planing the movements.

Whereas the brain area in front of C3/Cz/C4

is called motor strip and is for execution of movements.

The point in between F3 - F4 is Fz and is where the working memory

is located. If in your case F3 and F4 have higher Amplitudes in HiBeta it

might be of interest whether or how much Fz is affected as well.

To predict precisely, which effect a normalization will have in a

particular case is hard to say or more in a way: the improvements should

have to do with: planing of movements and may be working memory

(concentration ?), particularly since higher amplitudes in HiBeta are

correlated with a kind of hyperactivity.

But in general: To judge whether " high amplitudes " or " high coherence "

are TO HIGH or not, can even better be estimated if the corresponding

Z-score-values are known.

Gottfried

-------------------------------------------

Internet: http://www.Soft-dynamics.com/sdef_introduction.html

Contact: http://www.soft-dynamics.com/sdf_kontakt.html

wg. eMail Samstag, 10. März 2012 , 07:38:

................................................

>  

> A couple of newbie questions from a new trainer. I'm still learning

> so I appreciate any help with these questions.

> My assessment and subsequent brain training using multiband coherence

> up and down shows high, beta and high beta coherence at F3 and F4, and

> Low coherence in the delta to alpha band along the midline (fz to Pz).

> What sort of changes should I expect when training these sites down and

> up?

> I've read many references that muscle artifact is notorious for

> interfering with coherence reading. Does that apply to both high and

> low coherence? I am very careful to be as relaxed as possible when I

> train.

> Also during a brain training session, how much of a change should I

> expect to see after the training is over? Is it common to see the

> results go the other way?

> For example after training F3F4 multiband coherence down, I noticed

> after the 15 minutes my coherence didn't change much and perhaps got a

> little worse. Then the subsequent session I noticed the coherence had

> settled to a lower level over the past 24 hours? Is this similar to a

> gym session where after working a muscle you get tired but the bulk of

> the work occurs during the recovery stage?

>

[Guest guest]

,It can be daunting to be both trainer and client at the same time.  Especially when you are just starting off as a trainer, you can easily spend a lot of energy fiddling with the electrodes or the software or ANYTHING to keep from just paying attention to the feedback, without judging or evaluating, without thinking or trying.  It's hard to do that--at least for very long.  So new trainers (and, I must confess, guys who've been training themselves for a couple decades as well) focus a lot on all the technical issues and hope to see " changes " in the EEG readings.

In 20 years I've never had a client come to me and say, " I want to get rid of this pesky fastwave coherence in my frontal lobes. "  When I do a training plan, if I see that pattern in a client with obsessive thinking or compulsive behaviors or anxiety or generally being tired and burned out, then I'll put it on the plan to try out.  Training it just because it's there may be helpful, but how will you know?

You know by asking the client--even if the client is yourself--what am I feeling? I do this in the breaks between training segments.  I notice and feedback changes I see in the client, posture, level of tension or fidgetiness, facial expression, ability to communicate with me.  And I ask him (and ideally an observant friend, partner or family member) to let me know any little changes they noticed in the 24 hours after a session.  I get them LOOKING for changes and reporting them (usually be email).  I just finished with a man who trained with me for a week.  We tried a number of different approaches based on his assessment, but though he loved the trainings, he didn't notice anything different.  In a break during the 10th session, when I asked him what had happened, he began explaining to me how he had been able to become the observer in his own mind for the first time he could ever remember, seeing thoughts as if they were encased in bubbles, and just letting them go by.  That told us how to continue, what to train, and he made remarkable progress.

As far as what results a client " should " experience from a training, I don't answer that question.  The question I'm interested in is " what DID the client experience),  If I tell a client, " this will make you feel X " ; then, when I ask in a training break, some portion of them will tell me they noticed X because they think they should have.  Another group looks so hard for X that they miss A, B and C appear.

If you are getting clean signals and have done an assessment and decided what to train based on that, then focus for a while on being the client instead of the trainer.  Most of the TLC designs are pretty automatic, setting thresholds for you, so once you feel the feedback level is comfortable, just forget the screen.  Set it to pause every 3 or 5 minutes, depending on what you are training, and look inside yourself.  Jot down notes.  Don't need to write an essay.  They do it again.  When you find something you like that you think is related to positive things happening for you, stay with it until you can not train it for a week or two, and the positive effect remains.  Then you know the brain has established a " new normal " state for itself.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 3:38 AM, davidkaus1975 <davidkaus1975@...> wrote:

 

A couple of newbie questions from a new trainer. I'm still learning so I appreciate any help with these questions.

My assessment and subsequent brain training using multiband coherence up and down shows high, beta and high beta coherence at F3 and F4, and Low coherence in the delta to alpha band along the midline (fz to Pz). What sort of changes should I expect when training these sites down and up?

I've read many references that muscle artifact is notorious for interfering with coherence reading. Does that apply to both high and low coherence? I am very careful to be as relaxed as possible when I train.

Also during a brain training session, how much of a change should I expect to see after the training is over? Is it common to see the results go the other way?

For example after training F3F4 multiband coherence down, I noticed after the 15 minutes my coherence didn't change much and perhaps got a little worse. Then the subsequent session I noticed the coherence had settled to a lower level over the past 24 hours? Is this similar to a gym session where after working a muscle you get tired but the bulk of the work occurs during the recovery stage?