Re: Re: Where's the love?

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In a message dated 8/31/2006 9:56:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, julie.stevenson16@... writes:

I watched part of some film on TV last night and in it was potrayed the American Prom and inevitable prom night. To my knowledge there are not proms in England, although I think the upper classes have debuton(sp?) balls.What I was wondering with all these films potraying the American Prom, is it really accurate? Is it true that most are wanting to have sex on prom night?

It does seem that way doesn't it? It is not uncommon for parties to get raided by the police and it be found that parents have supplied alcohol to minors and sometimes even "make out rooms". There is inevitably a storm about this. On the one hand are the people condemning the parents for what they did, and on the other are the people saying the kids were going to be doing that anyway. I'm in the first camp, that if the parents had raised the kids properly, then they wouldn't be acting like that in the first place.

Not too long ago kids didn't act like this, at least not in the numbers they do now. Time was that getting a kiss was a big deal and virginity was a good thing. These days though college lots of college girls are looking to have sex so they will fit in and won't be considered outcasts. Think about that. It used to be being called a slut was a major insult, now being called a virgin is. Its actually interesting to read stories about men turning down sex from female friends in college because the girl wants to build up her "rep."

That's not too surprising though. Colleges aren't about education anymore. They are about getting those federally backed student loans, the more the better. That half of those students don't even complete their second year is of no importance, they have their money. So, they do what they can to draw in the biggest numbers. It used to be being called a party school was a derogatory, but now that designation is sought after as a recruiting device. Add to that Coed dorms, coed down to the individual floors with unisex bathrooms and showers and liberal placement of condom dispensers, minimal supervision and shacking up accepted, and it is little wonder more isn't going on. What can you expect when you have commoners unfit for college taken away from home and put into an environment like ancient Rome?

I'm just glad I've got my degree and don't have to fool with that mess. College was bad enough 15 years ago when I started, and dropped out because of the vermin. I would probably kill myself or someone else these days.

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Forgot to mention. There are also Debutante balls, but they aren't the same thing as proms. Debs are where the upper classes girls are officially introduced to society. They are supposed to be prim and proper events, but from my understanding they have often degenerated like so much else, especially in the after the ball parties which would be just like those after the prom: much drinking and sex.

I've long said that one of the best moves the powers that be could ever make was to encourage sexual promiscuity and hedonism in the masses. If the people are so busy indulging their base instincts, they will pay less attention to what the leaders are doing to control them. Nothing new about that though. The Romans had bread and circuses to distract the masses and even Hitler was told by his mentors that people would give up personal liberty for economic stability. They were right. Get people so wrapped up in sex and consumerism, they won't care about much as long as they can shag without consequence and get low prices. Of course in the long run, that leads to the what happened to the Romans, decadence and decay leading to collapse.

PS It always annoys me to hear people talk about chocolate and things as decadent. That's not what the word means.

Main Entry: 1dec·a·dentFunction: adjectivePronunciation: 'de-k & -d & nt also di-'kA-Etymology: back-formation from decadence1 : marked by decay or decline 2 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of the decadents 3 : characterized by or appealing to self-indulgence - dec·a·dent·ly adverb

Main Entry: dec·a·denceFunction: nounPronunciation: 'de-k & -d & n(t)s also di-'kA-Etymology: Middle French, from Medieval Latin decadentia, from Late Latin decadent-, decadens, present participle of decadere to fall, sink -- more at DECAY 1 : the process of becoming decadent : the quality or state of being decadent 2 : a period of decline synonym see DETERIORATION

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In a message dated 8/31/2006 4:27:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

Then...no.Now...yes.TomAministrator

This is what I was saying too. Since the 1960s and "sexual revolution," society has become much more base and course. It hasn't been liberation of any kind but rather a widespread slavery to humanity's baser instincts.

[Guest guest]

Oh, I know! It pisses me off when people call chocolate 'decadent'. I'd like to stick their decadence right up their nose! VISIGOTH@... wrote: Forgot to mention. There are also Debutante balls, but they aren't the same thing as proms. Debs are where the upper classes girls are officially introduced to society. They are supposed to be prim and proper events, but from my understanding they have often degenerated like so much else, especially in the after the ball parties

which would be just like those after the prom: much drinking and sex. I've long said that one of the best moves the powers that be could ever make was to encourage sexual promiscuity and hedonism in the masses. If the people are so busy indulging their base instincts, they will pay less attention to what the leaders are doing to control them. Nothing new about that though. The Romans had bread and circuses to distract the masses and even Hitler was told by his mentors that people would give up personal liberty for economic stability. They were right. Get people so wrapped up in sex and consumerism, they won't care about much as long as they can shag without consequence and get low prices. Of course in the long run, that leads to the what happened to the Romans, decadence and decay leading to collapse. PS It always annoys me to hear people talk about chocolate and things

as decadent. That's not what the word means. Main Entry: 1dec·a·dentFunction: adjectivePronunciation: 'de-k & -d & nt also di-'kA-Etymology: back-formation from decadence1 : marked by decay or decline 2 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of the decadents 3 : characterized by or appealing to self-indulgence - dec·a·dent·ly adverb Main Entry: dec·a·denceFunction: nounPronunciation: 'de-k & -d & n(t)s also di-'kA-Etymology: Middle French, from Medieval Latin decadentia, from Late Latin decadent-,

decadens, present participle of decadere to fall, sink -- more at DECAY 1 : the process of becoming decadent : the quality or state of being decadent 2 : a period of decline synonym see DETERIORATION

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In a message dated 8/31/2006 8:06:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ron18255@... writes:

Like anything else, I think the media latches onto the most sensational, scandalous behavior. Then, when that's the only behavior being depicted, it APPEARS to be the norm. Of course, LOTS of high school and college students are degrading themselves, and others, with intoxication and meaningless sexual encounters. There are also many others who AREN'T indulging in such behavior. Those of us who DON'T act that way (me included) should feel proud of ourselves, and should have our resolve strengthened by such media depictions.Lust IS NOT love, although it can be a wonderful component of the romantic love experience.If you MUST become inebriated to have fun, you're NOT really having fun.

I agree. Not all of them do, but it seems to be an increasing number. I also agree very strongly that if you have to get drunk to have fun, then you're not really having fun, but I would say rather that there is something very wrong with you.

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In a message dated 8/31/2006 9:42:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, acsnag@... writes:

Wow, now there is an arrogant attitude, Commoners!!!!!!!!! I didn't think we had a class system in America. Certainly everybody has every bit as much right to attend college as you did. How dare you use such a derogatory term.Ace

Not like the Europeans or the Hindu, but we do have a social order. Many people are "commoners" based on their behavior rather than social standing, though the two are sometimes combined. It is possible to come from a wealthy family and still be dead common as trailer trash based on their behavior.

I don't think everyone has a right to go to college. When I was there, there were many kids who were there simply because their parents told them it was either go to college (which the parents would pay for) or get a job. Then there were the party people who partied all night and came to class hungover and chatted and carried on with their friends during lectures. These and other people were represented in the large portion of each class that would get "D" and "F" marks. If they weren't going to be serious, they shouldn't have been there at all. That would have made for a much better environment for those of us who really wanted an education.

When I took my business courses, it was all working adults. The atmosphere was totally different from regular college. There wasn't all this party, party nonsense and everyone worked together. Most of all, excellence was cheered rather than jeered.

College would be much better if it were like in the old days when it was only for those who qualified. The rest could come back as adults or after a few years out from high school. That should give them time to wise up and be serious students.

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VISIGOTH@... wrote: What can you

> expect when you have commoners unfit for college taken away from home

> and put into an environment like ancient Rome?

Wow, now there is an arrogant attitude, Commoners!!!!!!!!! I didn't

think we had a class system in America. Certainly everybody has every

bit as much right to attend college as you did. How dare you use such a

derogatory term.

Ace

[Guest guest]

VISIGOTH@... wrote:

> PS It always annoys me to hear people talk about chocolate and things as

> decadent. That's not what the word means.

>

> *Main Entry:* ^1 dec·a·dent

> *Function:* /adjective/

> *Pronunciation:* 'de-k & -d & nt /also /di-'kA-

> *Etymology:* back-formation from /decadence/

> *1* *:* marked by decay or decline

> *2* *:* of, relating to, or having the characteristics of the decadents

> *3* *:* characterized by or appealing to self-indulgence

> *- dec·a·dent·ly* /adverb/

>

I think it refers to #3, self-indulgence. I'd say it fits very well.

Ace

[Guest guest]

On 31 Aug 2006 VISIGOTH@... wrote:

> They were right. Get people so wrapped up in sex and consumerism,

> they won't care about much as long as they can shag without consequence and

get

> low prices. Of course in the long run, that leads to the what happened to the

> Romans, decadence and decay leading to collapse.

The Roman Empire lasted some 1200 years. If one counts the

founding of Rome and the end of the Byzantine Empire it works

out to 2214 years.

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greebohere wrote:

> What I was wondering with all these films potraying the American

> Prom, is it really accurate? Is it true that most are wanting to have

> sex on prom night?

>

>

Depends on the film, but they're all more or less accurate. Sadly

enough, even the portrayal of the prom in " " wasn't far off the mark.

Proms have, for the last 30 years at least, been mostly excuses to have

a school-sanctioned night of partying and sex. I'm not sure how far back

you'd have to go before you find a time when it's not true, but I know

it was true when I was in high school, back in the 70s.

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In a message dated 9/1/2006 12:07:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, vze2vfni1@... writes:

The Roman Empire lasted some 1200 years. If one counts the founding of Rome and the end of the Byzantine Empire it works out to 2214 years.

It is interesting that it managed to last as something of a political unit for that long. However, if you look at the details of that history, you will see that much of the time it was very turbulent and unstable. There were several rounds of reformers who would steady things for a while, but once they died or were put out of power, the corruption settled right back in. The Western Empire did finally fall around 400 AD, probably largely due to climate disruption that pushed the already tottering empire over the edge. About that time there was probably either a large asteroid impact or major volcanic eruption that changed the weather for a number of years. This lead to crop failures and the movement of the Mongol tribes westward, which had a domino effect of pushing all the other tribes west. This lead to many of the Germanic tribes crossing the Rhine and going as far as Spain and North Africa. On the way several tribes sacked Rome itself, easy since the empire could no longer defend itself.

Byzantium was much the same. Corruption and political intrigue was crazy. The only way it held on to power was its very effective cavalry which could travel anywhere in the Eastern Empire very rapidly and defeat most enemies. Eventually they were undone by the Mamalukes and some other steppes tribes that came in, pushing all the way to the gates of Byzantium itself. The leaders in the city were offered certain weapons which they used to defeat their enemy. Not long after, they turned down another new technology, cannon, but their enemy took it. These cannon, large enough to fire a 3 foot diameter stone ball, easily breached the city walls and took the city.

Both were eventually undone by the moral and political corruption within that rotted the empire. You can even see the decadence setting in in Roman poetry. Early poetry was quite lyrical and impressive, not to mention rather upbeat. As time progressed, the poetry became less and less accomplished and pretty pathetic. Now, I've not done a detailed study on this myself, but have read a study or two on it.

I see this happening today. Most movies are pretty terrible, even those made based on old TV shows and comic books. Music is mostly pretty banal too. Even rap music used to be lyrical and interesting, but now its all booming base and cussing. Society is also coarsening and becoming less positive in outlook. I think this is reflected not only in the rudeness we see, but the stupidity the kids are up to from the stunts, backyard wrestling, drinking and wild sex, but also the low value they place on education which is their future, backs this up too.

Hopefully it will turn around, but I fear it will take one heck of shock and fearful hard times.

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RE respect and earning it. Here is something of a minor point perhaps- but it looms large in my mind. There was a group of members in a trades-union arguing for demanding a small increase in wages. There was another demanding a larger increase. Those advocating for a small increase won out in the union, and that was the proposal delivered to management. Management refused, and the trades-union went on strike, and since they were joined by the Teamsters and AFL-CIO it was a major state-wide strike that year. (...Back in the 1960s.) Decades later, one of those in the union who had advocated demanding a big raise happen to socially meet in friendly circumstances one of those who had been making the decisions on the management side of the bargaining table. He asked "Why didn't you agree to the small wage increase?" The answer: "Because we didn't have to." That phrase has always stuck

in my mind, everywhere I go. I see people applying that logic over and over again. (Story told to me by my Dad.) .. So the idea that we have to "earn" respect... yes, in a sense. Especially in the current context about behaving somewhat soberly, and with civility toward one another. But I personally prefer to phrase it as "taking" respect. You have to ~make~ it so blooming obvious, they ~have~ to respect you. Never cared for the "earn" word generally...too...too... feudal or something. Like a King granting you a boon for having served him. Hmmm... I suppose win respect is more workable for me. And again, this is just me probably. With perhaps a wee bit of the anti-authority streak in me, Heph environmental1st2003 <no_reply > wrote: I agree with both of these opinions. Thanks for posting them.Additionally, I think that if Aspies are to give autism and Asperger's Syndrome a good name, we should refrain from falling into the lustul and inebriating activities that our neurotypical counterparts seem to enjoy so often. If we want respect from the non-Aspie community, we have to earn it.TomAdministratorLust IS NOT love, although it

can be a wonderful component of the romantic love experience.If you MUST become inebriated to have fun, you're NOT really having fun.Hephaestus

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Ah...I've been catching up reading posts in reverse chronological order again. A bad habit. May have just written some things that might be taken ~in~ the context of the overall thread that has been going on. Sorry- Not intended. I was just focussing on the detail of the words "earn respect" is all. Heph Hephaestus Clubfoot <lemnosforge@...> wrote: RE respect and earning it. Here is

something of a minor point perhaps- but it looms large in my mind. There was a group of members in a trades-union arguing for demanding a small increase in wages. There was another demanding a larger increase. Those advocating for a small increase won out in the union, and that was the proposal delivered to management. Management refused, and the trades-union went on strike, and since they were joined by the Teamsters and AFL-CIO it was a major state-wide strike that year. (...Back in the 1960s.) Decades later, one of those in the union who had advocated demanding a big raise happen to socially meet in friendly circumstances one of those who had been making the decisions on the management side of the bargaining table. He asked "Why didn't you agree to the small wage increase?" The answer: "Because we didn't have to." That phrase has always stuck in my mind, everywhere I go. I see people applying that logic over and over

again. (Story told to me by my Dad.) .. So the idea that we have to "earn" respect... yes, in a sense. Especially in the current context about behaving somewhat soberly, and with civility toward one another. But I personally prefer to phrase it as "taking" respect. You have to ~make~ it so blooming obvious, they ~have~ to respect you. Never cared for the "earn" word generally...too...too... feudal or something. Like a King granting you a boon for having served him. Hmmm... I suppose win respect is more workable for me. And again, this is just me probably. With perhaps a wee bit of the anti-authority streak in me, Heph environmental1st2003 <no_reply > wrote: I agree with both of these opinions. Thanks for posting them.Additionally, I think that if Aspies are to give autism and Asperger's Syndrome a good name, we should refrain from falling into the lustul and inebriating activities that our neurotypical counterparts seem to enjoy so often. If we want respect from the non-Aspie community, we have to earn it.TomAdministratorLust IS NOT love, although it can be a wonderful component of the romantic love experience.If you MUST become inebriated to have fun, you're NOT really having fun.Hephaestus

Clubfoothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestushttp://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hephaestus.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Hephaestus Clubfoothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestushttp://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hephaestus.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi

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At the military school I went to we did not have prom. Instead, we had the military ball. The cadets who had dates could go to the ball, which was held in the gym/performing arts building and they could also go to the PX which was nearby. Faculty and others were also all over the place keeping a close eye on things. The rest of us were confined to the barracks area of campus, but otherwise had little supervision. That was because anyone who caused trouble or went to harass the ball goers, was in deep trouble.

I never went to the ball myself. I was usually a barracks guard looking after our particular barrack or when I had rank I would patrol looking both for troublemakers and couples trying to sneak off in the shadows. It was always fun to appear out of nowhere and scare the daylights out of them. I knew the most likely places they would go and there was a place I could see several of them at one time and their approaches. If I saw someone sneaking around, I could beat them to where they were going and surprise surprise. Since the guys going to the ball teased those of us who weren't, I rather enjoyed being able to legally make a pain of myself that way.