Re: why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

[Guest guest]

Hi LIz,

Your graph does not show up to 60hz. The image cuts off just over 50 hz. However, it does look like an awful lot of artifact given the dark waves with frequent crossovers above zero on the raw wave. The look of artifact is also supicious in the 1hz bin spectrogram at the bottom in that its so uniform and high acrosss all the faster frequency bins.

Have you tried using eeg paste and comparing what you get?

DVD's can certainly cause artifacts in some computer systems due to cpu pinning and windows resource use. What's the cpu load when running the session/

My own biograph gives me warnings sometimes around data aquistion due to to CPU pinning and I it's due to some windows tasks eating up resources in the background. Some times with my system its the file indexing in windows that decides to do its thing. Other times it some new software for an external back up drive that starts chugging away.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no "sync errors," ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Unless I've missed something, you haven't said whether this is a case of one,

or all of the time?

Re: why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Here's another screenshot -- everything the same, except -- a different laptop! does this one look better? (I changed the range on the colored bar graph so that you can see the 60Hz now. Thanks for looking.Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Bruce, Thanks for your response. I just used EEG paste and got weird artifact also, even without using a DVD. Just running BE without any feedback at all. We moved to different rooms, too. Changed ALL electrodes and used paste with them. Even changed pendants! Driving me nuts. I will have to check CPU usage, thanks for the tip. I'm ready to buy the $50 Mattel toy where your brain pushes the ball around and call it a day. Well, almost.Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Bruce Z. Berman <MindFitness@...> wrote:

Hi LIz,

Your graph does not show up to 60hz. The image cuts off just over 50 hz. However, it does look like an awful lot of artifact given the dark waves with frequent crossovers above zero on the raw wave. The look of artifact is also supicious in the 1hz bin spectrogram at the bottom in that its so uniform and high acrosss all the faster frequency bins.

Have you tried using eeg paste and comparing what you get?

DVD's can certainly cause artifacts in some computer systems due to cpu pinning and windows resource use. What's the cpu load when running the session/

My own biograph gives me warnings sometimes around data aquistion due to to CPU pinning and I it's due to some windows tasks eating up resources in the background. Some times with my system its the file indexing in windows that decides to do its thing. Other times it some new software for an external back up drive that starts chugging away.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no "sync errors," ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Most of that stuff up to 3 Hz is proably artifact, the higher frequency stuff also looks like artifact.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no "sync errors," ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not.  In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " .  Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are.  I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery.  Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

 So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

[Guest guest]

It's the image to right that I sent in the attachment not the one on the left that is what I'm refering to. The one on the left was just a snap shot of eyes closed. The one on the right is eyes open at CZ which I believe is the placement and task that Liz has been using us for the images she is saying are typical.

Bruce Z. Berman Re: why oh why this signal??

Liz,

No, either way is good. I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in. The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem. If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen.

The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug. The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring. Grounding gets rid of that.

If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,

On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLiz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring.

http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web

www.lessemf.com

that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

It's the image to right that I sent in the attachment not the one on the left that is what I'm refering to. The one on the left was just a snap shot of eyes closed. The one on the right is eyes open at CZ which I believe is the placement and task that Liz has been using us for the images she is saying are typical.

Bruce Z. Berman Re: why oh why this signal??

Liz,

No, either way is good. I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in. The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem. If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen.

The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug. The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring. Grounding gets rid of that.

If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,

On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLiz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring.

http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web

www.lessemf.com

that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist