Re: why oh why this signal??

[Guest guest]

Liz, can you send an image of the 3d spectra which covers the whole recording

session. Pete made a good point, which such an image might adress. The images

you have been sending only cover very brief time periods and any particular time

period can look good or bad or good given that you don't see the movement of the

data points through time.

It just occured to me that some of these images you have been sending only look

bad because of its one breif snap shot covering a very short period of time.

The magnitude of the low frequency in you last image is not realy wierd, for

such frequencies given it's only covering a period where it surged and surges of

magnitude are common. The 3d spectra over the entire recording session would

claifiy this for you.

Bruce Z. Berman

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

[Attachment(s)<#12f7dd1aafeb1d3b_12f7dc058af4a76d_12f7d7e197bd6860_12f7d6deb8fe5\

317_12f7c548f61cd876_12f7a844da5be29e_TopText>

> >>>>>> from Margoshes included below]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> An interesting development!

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that

> >>>>>> I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop

> >>>>>> before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with

these

> >>>>>> other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other

> >>>>>> activities.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips

> >>>>>> and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most

> >>>>>> importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one

that

> >>>>>> has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is

fine!

> >>>>>> (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up;

if,

> >>>>>> in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into

> >>>>>> each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same

old

> >>>>>> horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned

IBM

> >>>>>> T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale "

from

> >>>>>> some online outlet)

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a

> >>>>>> fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my

> >>>>>> crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or

something

> >>>>>> like that.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true

> >>>>>> that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded

or

> >>>>>> shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other

> >>>>>> computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been

giving

> >>>>>> me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Liz

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> --

> >>>>

> >>>> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >>>> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >>>> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> --

> >>> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >>> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >>> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>

> >>

> >> --

> >> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Margoshes, Ph.D.

> > New York State Licensed Psychologist

> > <http://www.finishingschool.org>

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

>

[Guest guest]

Liz.

I don’t think I was clear enough last night. Creating an antenna would be likely to make things worse, and attaching the wire at only one end would do that. The grounding wire should be attached at one end to the laptop as you describe. The other end needs to be attached to the ground of your house electrical supply. A typical three pronged plug that you insert into a wall receptacle has two round prongs and one flat prong.

They look like this:

O O

|

The flat one is the ground. Any hardware store will sell you an adapter to plug into the wall receptacle which will have a wire (usually green) sticking out of it to which you can easily make the ground connection,

If attaching it like this does not work, please let me know.

Larry

If this doesn’t work, please let me know.

From: Margoshes

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:46 AM

Subject: Re: why oh why this signal??

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities.So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Liz.

I don’t think I was clear enough last night. Creating an antenna would be likely to make things worse, and attaching the wire at only one end would do that. The grounding wire should be attached at one end to the laptop as you describe. The other end needs to be attached to the ground of your house electrical supply. A typical three pronged plug that you insert into a wall receptacle has two round prongs and one flat prong.

They look like this:

O O

|

The flat one is the ground. Any hardware store will sell you an adapter to plug into the wall receptacle which will have a wire (usually green) sticking out of it to which you can easily make the ground connection,

If attaching it like this does not work, please let me know.

Larry

If this doesn’t work, please let me know.

From: Margoshes

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:46 AM

Subject: Re: why oh why this signal??

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities.So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

 Larry,Thanks.Here's the rub:This is what Pete said in a prior response: " If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " . Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. "

That's the part I don't understand. It's not plugged in, so why does it have to be grounded?LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Larry <llewis@...> wrote:

 

Liz.

 

I don’t think I was clear enough last night. Creating an antenna would be likely to make things worse, and attaching the wire at only one end would do that. The grounding wire should be attached at one end to the laptop as you describe. The other end needs to be attached to the ground of your house electrical supply. A typical three pronged plug that you insert into a wall receptacle has two round prongs and one flat prong.

 

They look like this:

O    O

    |

 

The flat one is the ground. Any hardware store will sell you an adapter to plug into the wall receptacle which will have a wire (usually green) sticking out of it to which you can easily make the ground connection,

 

If attaching it like this does not work, please let me know.

 

Larry

 

 

 

If this doesn’t work, please let me know.

 

From: Margoshes

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:46 AM

Subject: Re: why oh why this signal??

 

 

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of  antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz 

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not.  In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " .  Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are.  I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery.  Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

[Guest guest]

 Larry,Thanks.Here's the rub:This is what Pete said in a prior response: " If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " . Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. "

That's the part I don't understand. It's not plugged in, so why does it have to be grounded?LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Larry <llewis@...> wrote:

 

Liz.

 

I don’t think I was clear enough last night. Creating an antenna would be likely to make things worse, and attaching the wire at only one end would do that. The grounding wire should be attached at one end to the laptop as you describe. The other end needs to be attached to the ground of your house electrical supply. A typical three pronged plug that you insert into a wall receptacle has two round prongs and one flat prong.

 

They look like this:

O    O

    |

 

The flat one is the ground. Any hardware store will sell you an adapter to plug into the wall receptacle which will have a wire (usually green) sticking out of it to which you can easily make the ground connection,

 

If attaching it like this does not work, please let me know.

 

Larry

 

 

 

If this doesn’t work, please let me know.

 

From: Margoshes

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:46 AM

Subject: Re: why oh why this signal??

 

 

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of  antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz 

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not.  In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " .  Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are.  I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery.  Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

[Guest guest]

Liz,No, either way is good. I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in. The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem. If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen. The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug. The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring. Grounding gets rid of that.If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer. Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigateHere is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.htmlOn Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Liz,No, either way is good. I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in. The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem. If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen. The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug. The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring. Grounding gets rid of that.If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer. Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigateHere is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.htmlOn Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

,

I have include an image from the Demos book that shows a normative view of of eyes open from a 3d spectrogram. Note that there is a point in the middle of the recording where delta,(the green) is pritty close to the value of Liz's image.

So backing up, for a moment, I don't neccessarily see a problem in the last image that Liz sent us that she said was typical.

Bruce Z. Berman

Re: why oh why this signal??

Liz,

No, either way is good. I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in. The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem. If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen.

The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug. The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring. Grounding gets rid of that.

If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,

On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLiz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring.

http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web

www.lessemf.com

that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

1 of 1 Photo(s)

[Guest guest]

,

I have include an image from the Demos book that shows a normative view of of eyes open from a 3d spectrogram. Note that there is a point in the middle of the recording where delta,(the green) is pritty close to the value of Liz's image.

So backing up, for a moment, I don't neccessarily see a problem in the last image that Liz sent us that she said was typical.

Bruce Z. Berman

Re: why oh why this signal??

Liz,

No, either way is good. I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in. The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem. If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen.

The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug. The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring. Grounding gets rid of that.

If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,

On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLiz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring.

http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web

www.lessemf.com

that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

1 of 1 Photo(s)

[Guest guest]

I'm going to try to figure out how to send a session to you, .Meanwhile, I posted my dilemma to a website I frequent called metafilter.com.  They sort of know everything. I've gotten some amazing answers which my husband (a software person) is now attempting to decode from Electrical Geek Language.

Here's what somebody says who works with EEG equipment: " Honestly, your EEG looks pretty good to me, for raw, unfiltered EEG. (It

is unfiltered, right?) You're getting good enough signal to sort of see

alpha waves. If you want it to be smooth waves, you need to filter it. I know very little about neurofeedback; what frequency ranges are you interested in? Theta, beta, alpha, gamma? If you don't care about gamma, and you want to get rid of the low frequency components, just bandpass your signal from 1-20 Hz. " QUESTION: So -- is this EEG being filtered at all?People also want to know the sampling rate of the pendant. Where do I find that info?Here's some more, from somebody else, which I barely understand:

" I'm not sure grounding is really the issue here though. On the laptop that works properly, are the vertical divisions about the same (i.e. 10 uV/div)? By that I mean is the output in the same general range? If you run an amplifier with very low inputs then the natural DC offset of the instrumentation op-amp will contribute. Is this thing powered entirely by a COM port, or something else? If so, then check the rails of the COM port with a DMM to see if they are stable and correct. Often

modern computers skimp on proper COM/LPT voltages because for signaling

it doesn't really matter if you don't have the full 12V, but if this thing expects to draw power from a COM port then it will matter. That is one area where older hardware generally is better. " Hmm. Also several people have asked me, " is your rig optically isolated? " Uh...duh.... Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:47 PM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

 

Liz,No, either way is good.  I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in.  The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem.  If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen.   

The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug.  The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring.  Grounding gets rid of that.

If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM,  <gmartin@...> wrote:

 Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong).  If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.  

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer.  Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded.   Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM,  <gmartin@...> wrote:

 Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords.  They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug.  One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring.  http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM,  <gmartin@...> wrote:

 Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago.  It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way,  A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of  antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.

I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.

thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not.  In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " .  Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are.  I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery.  Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

 So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

--  Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

--  Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist 

--  Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

 

--  Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

[Guest guest]

Here is the typical mess I'm getting:http://www.echonyc.com/~neander/morewhy.bmpI can't believe I can train with this going on!Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:23 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

 

It's the image to right that I sent in the attachment not the one on the left that is what I'm refering to. The one on the left was just a snap shot of eyes closed. The one on the right is eyes open at CZ which I believe is the placement and task that Liz has been using us for the images she is saying are typical.

 

Bruce Z. Berman Re: why oh why this signal?? 

Liz,

No, either way is good.  I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in.  The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem.  If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen.   

The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug.  The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring.  Grounding gets rid of that.

If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,

On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

ThanksLiz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM,  <gmartin@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong).  If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.  

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer.  Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded.   Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM,  <gmartin@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords.  They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug.  One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring.  

http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM,  <gmartin@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago.  It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web

 www.lessemf.com 

that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way,  A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of  antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.

I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.

thanks for your info.Liz 

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not.  In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " .  Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are.  I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery.  Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

 So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

--  Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

--  Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

--  Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

--  Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

[Guest guest]

If the is sent straight from the source element to the oscilloscope then it is not filtered. If you can find the .bxs file that was recorded for the session that produced the images then you can send that as an attachment,.On Apr 22, 2011, at 12:25 PM, Margoshes wrote:I'm going to try to figure out how to send a session to you, .Meanwhile, I posted my dilemma to a website I frequent called metafilter.com. They sort of know everything. I've gotten some amazing answers which my husband (a software person) is now attempting to decode from Electrical Geek Language. Here's what somebody says who works with EEG equipment:"Honestly, your EEG looks pretty good to me, for raw, unfiltered EEG. (It is unfiltered, right?) You're getting good enough signal to sort of see alpha waves. If you want it to be smooth waves, you need to filter it. I know very little about neurofeedback; what frequency ranges are you interested in? Theta, beta, alpha, gamma? If you don't care about gamma, and you want to get rid of the low frequency components, just bandpass your signal from 1-20 Hz."QUESTION: So -- is this EEG being filtered at all?People also want to know the sampling rate of the pendant. Where do I find that info?Here's some more, from somebody else, which I barely understand:"I'm not sure grounding is really the issue here though. On the laptop that works properly, are the vertical divisions about the same (i.e. 10 uV/div)? By that I mean is the output in the same general range? If you run an amplifier with very low inputs then the natural DC offset of the instrumentation op-amp will contribute. Is this thing powered entirely by a COM port, or something else? If so, then check the rails of the COM port with a DMM to see if they are stable and correct. Often modern computers skimp on proper COM/LPT voltages because for signaling it doesn't really matter if you don't have the full 12V, but if this thing expects to draw power from a COM port then it will matter. That is one area where older hardware generally is better."Hmm. Also several people have asked me, "is your rig optically isolated?" Uh...duh.... LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:47 PM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,No, either way is good. I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in. The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem. If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen. The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug. The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring. Grounding gets rid of that.If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer. Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigateHere is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.htmlOn Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

What criteron are you using that makes you think that you can't train with this or that what you are seeing is too much EMG or any other artifact to be training with? Have you looked at the normative image I sent from the Demos group?

Also in terms of training, we are training for changes and shifts in signal which are relative. So even when there is some artifact, as long as it's not flooding everything else with it's magnitude, we still getting what we need to train.

Although it looks like you have some level of EMG activity going on in the images, there is no way to completely get rid of that nor does it look like it's an awful lot of it.

Does any of this makes sense to you or am I missing something still?

Bruce Z. Berman

Re: why oh why this signal??

Liz,

No, either way is good. I was under the impression that you were having 60 hz problems when plugged in. The grounding routine will allow you to plug in and still avoid the problem. If running on batteries is not a problem for you then the grounding does not need to happen.

The problem with 60 hz happens only if you have a laptop plugged in with a two pronged plug. The interference is caused by the noise in the wiring. Grounding gets rid of that.

If I can see the bxs for sessions in question it would be easier to look at the raw signal over time to see what is happening,

On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLiz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring.

http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,

I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web

www.lessemf.com

that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!

Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Liz,Once again--and agreeing with the geeks and others--it doesn't look like you have a signal problem.  You haven't told us where this hook up is.  You are going down to 0 Hz on the power spectrum.  Try setting the properties from 2-60 Hz.  Any kind of movement at all will result in super-low frequency surges.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

[Guest guest]

Ok, will reset properties. I thought the spiky lines, as opposed to waves, were signs of interference. I hooked up one active at cz for my tests, to keep it simple, with one ear ground and one ear reference. Thanks. I don't want to have signal problems!Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.NY State Licensed PsychologistOn Apr 22, 2011, at 4:04 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Liz,Once again--and agreeing with the geeks and others--it doesn't look like you have a signal problem. You haven't told us where this hook up is. You are going down to 0 Hz on the power spectrum. Try setting the properties from 2-60 Hz. Any kind of movement at all will result in super-low frequency surges.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

[Guest guest]

Liz, one common of spikey lines is espeacialy prevelent with use of the ear lobes. It's the pulse artifact. Try using the mastoid or the upper ear instead.

Bruce Z. Berman

Re: why oh why this signal??

Ok, will reset properties. I thought the spiky lines, as opposed to waves, were signs of interference. I hooked up one active at cz for my tests, to keep it simple, with one ear ground and one ear reference. Thanks. I don't want to have signal problems!

Liz Margoshes, Ph.D. NY State Licensed Psychologist

On Apr 22, 2011, at 4:04 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Liz,Once again--and agreeing with the geeks and others--it doesn't look like you have a signal problem. You haven't told us where this hook up is. You are going down to 0 Hz on the power spectrum. Try setting the properties from 2-60 Hz. Any kind of movement at all will result in super-low frequency surges.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Bruce, I will do that. Lizand I appreciate everybody's help on this list!On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:27 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

 

Liz, one common of spikey lines is espeacialy prevelent with use of the ear lobes. It's the pulse artifact. Try using the mastoid or the upper ear instead.

 

Bruce Z. Berman

 

Re: why oh why this signal??

 

Ok, will reset properties. I thought the spiky lines, as opposed to waves, were signs of interference. I hooked up one active at cz for my tests, to keep it simple, with one ear ground and one ear reference. Thanks. I don't want to have signal problems!

Liz Margoshes, Ph.D. NY State Licensed Psychologist

On Apr 22, 2011, at 4:04 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Once again--and agreeing with the geeks and others--it doesn't look like you have a signal problem.  You haven't told us where this hook up is.  You are going down to 0 Hz on the power spectrum.  Try setting the properties from 2-60 Hz.  Any kind of movement at all will result in super-low frequency surges.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

I'm a tech at Pocket Neurobics.

There was clear fuzziness on the first attachement you sent thru very suggestive

of 60Hz interference (however the spectogram for this image didn't go to 60Hz),

yet on the three(?) subsequent images (whose spectogram did go up to 60Hz) the

fuzziness was gone and indeed there was just a small amount of residual

interference at 60Hz.

In general 60Hz interference is not a big problem with the Pendants. And since

it got them second hand (?) it suggests to me that their " Profile " may have been

changed. Profiling allows the user to change the sampling rate and the bandwidth

of the EEG signal. Bandwidth can be changed between 40 (default), 48 and 56Hz.

If 56Hz is chosen, then some 60Hz interference will get thru and can cause

problems.

It's not easy to tell what the current setting is, however it is relatively easy

to change the setting with BioExplorer.

First set the Pendant to Program mode. Depends on the model - but generally by

pressing the mode button on the side and having the green light (which will have

been mostly on, blinking off), to either mostly off and blinking on, or changing

color.

Then in BioExplorer, go into the Device Manager (in the " BioExplorer " drop down

menu), highlighting " Pendant EEG " , going to Properties, click the " Pendant " tab,

then click the drop down list of all possible Preofiles. Choose 256sps & 40Hz

(the default). Then click " Set Profile " .

If successful, the Pendant will automatically start transmitting in the new

Profile. If unsuccesful it will sit there waiting for another attempt (it is

wireless so the update can get interrupted).

Also,

you will note from the oscilloscope images that the mean eeg signal is not

sitting exactly on 0V. In this case it sits on a baseline a little below 0V.

This constant DC offset reflects itself as what can be a fairly large spectra at

0V. This is normal behaviour for the Pendant and does not affect training.

Hope this does the trick

bruce

PN

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

[Attachment(s)<http://sz0029.wc.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/public/blank.html#12f7dc\

058af4a76d_12f7d7e197bd6860_12f7d6deb8fe5317_12f7c548f61cd876_12f7a844da5be29e_T\

opText>

> >>>>>> from Margoshes included below]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> An interesting development!

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that

> >>>>>> I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop

> >>>>>> before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with

these

> >>>>>> other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other

> >>>>>> activities.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips

> >>>>>> and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most

> >>>>>> importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one

that

> >>>>>> has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is

fine!

> >>>>>> (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up;

if,

> >>>>>> in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into

> >>>>>> each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same

old

> >>>>>> horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned

IBM

> >>>>>> T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale "

from

> >>>>>> some online outlet)

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a

> >>>>>> fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my

> >>>>>> crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or

something

> >>>>>> like that.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true

> >>>>>> that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded

or

> >>>>>> shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other

> >>>>>> computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been

giving

> >>>>>> me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Liz

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> --

> >>>>

> >>>> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >>>> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >>>> <http://www.finishingschool.org/>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> --

> >>> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >>> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >>> <http://www.finishingschool.org/>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>

> >>

> >> --

> >> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >> <http://www.finishingschool.org/>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> > --

> > Margoshes, Ph.D.

> > New York State Licensed Psychologist

> > <http://www.finishingschool.org/>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

>

[Guest guest]

Liz,I'm so sorry you are having this trouble. Rest assured, problems of interference are not terribly uncommon. I thought I would chime in on an electronics perspective. Whenever alternating current is run through anything, there is a corresponding electromagnetic field (EMF) that is generated - that's the stuff we deal with - the invisible EMF that travels through the air. (It is also precisely the the thing we are picking up from the brain.) And it is everywhere else in our modern world as well. There are really two different types of interference we deal with. The first is the 60hz problem (and associated harmonics) which comes from our power source at the wall. Grounding sometimes helps (this is the " correct, safest, and, usual " way.) However, due to looping and antenna effects, grounding can make matters worse.....so UN-grounding helps in those situations. (This is why you may have read what appears to be conflicting solutions.)

The other kind of interference is the EMF that comes from electronics of all kinds, including the computer itself. As another member posted, it can come from many various sources including lights (especially florescent,) far away radios, pumps, motors, monitors, etc. The FCC regulates the design of devices to reduce the levels of these things, but faults in them, poor manufacturing, or an inadequate design that got by the FCC can let signals stray.

Considering that our equipment is meant to pick up the very tiniest of signals, it is a wonder we can work at all! The best place to function would be WAY out in the wilderness with battery-only power. Having said that, the pendant and other devices are very good at rejecting signals that aren't what we are looking for.

It is my opinion that you are suffering from interference from the computer itself. My guess is that

your older laptop is well shielded in its design (older equipment is often less noisy.) Faster processors, more processors, more powerful switching power supplies, all getting smashed inside smaller, cheaper, and lighter plastic cases with poor shielding, can add up to a computer that radiates stray signals. (On the underside of the plastic case is a metallic paint that is supposed to act as metal shielding.)Some of the devices listed on the lessEMF web site may work. It sounds ridiculous and I wouldn't recommend it, but wrapping the whole thing tightly in aluminum foil would probably reduce the stray signals. (I'm just making the point that adding shielding - surrounding metal- reduces stray signals.)

So Pete is correct, it becomes a tough problem if this is the case. You can't easily re-design the laptop case for better shielding, but you may be able to " cobble something together " as did.

I would also venture to say that an aluminum Mac laptop running Windows probably radiates the least amount of EMF just because the whole thing is surrounded by metal. (Or any other all-metal case laptop.) I hope this helps others who may search for these problems in the forum.

HelveyTaos, NM

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Thanks, Bruce, I will do that. Lizand I appreciate everybody's help on this list!On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:27 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

 

Liz, one common of spikey lines is espeacialy prevelent with use of the ear lobes. It's the pulse artifact. Try using the mastoid or the upper ear instead.

 

Bruce Z. Berman

 

Re: why oh why this signal??

 

Ok, will reset properties. I thought the spiky lines, as opposed to waves, were signs of interference. I hooked up one active at cz for my tests, to keep it simple, with one ear ground and one ear reference. Thanks. I don't want to have signal problems!

Liz Margoshes, Ph.D. NY State Licensed Psychologist

On Apr 22, 2011, at 4:04 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,Once again--and agreeing with the geeks and others--it doesn't look like you have a signal problem.  You haven't told us where this hook up is.  You are going down to 0 Hz on the power spectrum.  Try setting the properties from 2-60 Hz.  Any kind of movement at all will result in super-low frequency surges.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist 

-- Helveychelvey@...