Re: why oh why this signal??

April 19, 2011

Bruce, Thanks for your response. I just used EEG paste and got weird artifact also, even without using a DVD. Just running BE without any feedback at all. We moved to different rooms, too. Changed ALL electrodes and used paste with them. Even changed pendants!

Driving me nuts. I will have to check CPU usage, thanks for the tip. I'm ready to buy the $50 Mattel toy where your brain pushes the ball around and call it a day. Well, almost.Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Bruce Z. Berman <MindFitness@...> wrote:

Hi LIz,

Your graph does not show up to 60hz. The image cuts off just over 50 hz. However, it does look like an awful lot of artifact given the dark waves with frequent crossovers above zero on the raw wave. The look of artifact is also supicious in the 1hz bin spectrogram at the bottom in that its so uniform and high acrosss all the faster frequency bins.

Have you tried using eeg paste and comparing what you get?

DVD's can certainly cause artifacts in some computer systems due to cpu pinning and windows resource use. What's the cpu load when running the session/

My own biograph gives me warnings sometimes around data aquistion due to to CPU pinning and I it's due to some windows tasks eating up resources in the background. Some times with my system its the file indexing in windows that decides to do its thing. Other times it some new software for an external back up drive that starts chugging away.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 19, 2011

Here's another screenshot -- everything the same, except -- a different laptop! does this one look better? (I changed the range on the colored bar graph so that you can see the 60Hz now. Thanks for looking.Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Bruce, Thanks for your response. I just used EEG paste and got weird artifact also, even without using a DVD. Just running BE without any feedback at all. We moved to different rooms, too. Changed ALL electrodes and used paste with them. Even changed pendants!

Driving me nuts. I will have to check CPU usage, thanks for the tip. I'm ready to buy the $50 Mattel toy where your brain pushes the ball around and call it a day. Well, almost.Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Bruce Z. Berman <MindFitness@...> wrote:

Hi LIz,

Your graph does not show up to 60hz. The image cuts off just over 50 hz. However, it does look like an awful lot of artifact given the dark waves with frequent crossovers above zero on the raw wave. The look of artifact is also supicious in the 1hz bin spectrogram at the bottom in that its so uniform and high acrosss all the faster frequency bins.

Have you tried using eeg paste and comparing what you get?

DVD's can certainly cause artifacts in some computer systems due to cpu pinning and windows resource use. What's the cpu load when running the session/

My own biograph gives me warnings sometimes around data aquistion due to to CPU pinning and I it's due to some windows tasks eating up resources in the background. Some times with my system its the file indexing in windows that decides to do its thing. Other times it some new software for an external back up drive that starts chugging away.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 19, 2011

That still looks strange, although the raw looks somewhat better. That looks somewhat like the readings I used to get in my office when I had my notch filter disabled.

Are you using a notch filter?

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no "sync errors," ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 19, 2011

Bruce,I will try that next. Thank you for your advice.(I might also take everything to various places, since it's all so portable, to control for my house in general. Neurofeedback at Starbucks!)Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:02 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

Liz, you have probably tried this too but if not try unplugging everything from the outlets in the room your using. I went through the same thing in one of my offices several years ago. It took me 6 months to get a good signal, trying everything I could think of.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.

The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.

Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 19, 2011

Liz, though your problems are not funny, you did give me a good laugh imagining NF at Starbucks.

That first screenshot is pretty obviously electrical interference--you don't need to see the 60 hz line to know it. Moving your husband around the room wouldn't solve the problem if it is being received by the dongle or through the computer itself. If both the laptop and the power cord were unplugged at the time of your first screenshot, then wow. The only time I ever had a signal that bad that wouldn't resolve itself from basic troubleshooting, I had a set of ActivEEGs that had gone bad.

A few other thoughts for whatever they're worth: I once had a monitor that, even when off, caused interference in one of my laptops. Moving the laptop away from the monitor solved the problem. A cellphone on in someone's pocket once caused interference that looked more like your second, improved screenshot. I also once left my cellphone power cord plugged in (no, I don't usually do that--very bad for cords!) to the power strip, and it caused interference. A lamp once caused interference, too.

If you unplug everything and the connection still looks like that first one, consider things outside the room. A dental tool in the office next to mine used to cause all kinds of problems, and moving my desk across the room helped...though the problem didn't go away entirely until the dentist moved out of the suite. I presume you don't have random dental surgery equipment in your house (!), but something on a wall shared with your laptop might be enough to cause interference

April 20, 2011

I have seen three places where there was severe electromagnetic noise we could not get rid of. In 20 years of working with a LOT of systems and places: one was a block from a TV transmitter in Sao o; one was downstairs from a police station with lots of ratio equipment going all the time in Zurich; one was...well, we never did figure out what THAT one was, but it was in central California.

80+% of the 60 Hz problems I've seen were resolved with excellent prepping and keeping the hair out from under the electrodes as much as possible. If you are using saline, by careful not to over-wet the electrodes, as the water can run on the scalp and create " antennae " to pick up signals from the environment--or actually connect two electrodes by mistake. Another 10% were resolved by changing electrodes that had gotten a scratch (something other than pure silver) or a nick in the insulation of one of the wires.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

2-prongs, Pete, but I did unplug the power supply and the laptop, and walked around the rooms with it (with my husband walking around, hooked up) -- this is so frustrating. Sometimes I get a decent signal, but mostly I don't. And there are 3 different laptops we keep trying.

Will keep working on it, thanks.LizOn Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:44 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Are you using a laptop with a 2-prong or 3-prong plug? Try unplugging the AC adaptor from the wall and the computer while you are running and see if the signal cleans up. If you are using a 2-prong plug, even in a grounded outlet, you won't get the benefit of the grounding, and you are likely to have a noisy signal.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

That still looks strange, although the raw looks somewhat better. That looks somewhat like the readings I used to get in my office when I had my notch filter disabled.

Are you using a notch filter?

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.

The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.

Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 21, 2011

I believe I've gotten decent signals at other times.I'm attaching yet another screenshot -- everything the same but in my garden! What is the tall green on the spectrograph at 0? Also you can see that there isn't much 60-cycle. I used another pendant and dongle set, too! (I bought a few used ones awhile back). I just don't understand, except if it is actually...DEMONIC POSSESSION...

LizOn Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 6:04 AM, <hobs27458@...> wrote:

Unless I've missed something, you haven't said whether this is a case of one,

or all of the time?

Re: why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Here's another screenshot -- everything the same, except -- a different laptop! does this one look better? (I changed the range on the colored bar graph so that you can see the 60Hz now. Thanks for looking.

Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Bruce, Thanks for your response. I just used EEG paste and got weird artifact also, even without using a DVD. Just running BE without any feedback at all. We moved to different rooms, too. Changed ALL electrodes and used paste with them. Even changed pendants!

Driving me nuts. I will have to check CPU usage, thanks for the tip. I'm ready to buy the $50 Mattel toy where your brain pushes the ball around and call it a day. Well, almost.Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Bruce Z. Berman <MindFitness@...> wrote:

Hi LIz,

Your graph does not show up to 60hz. The image cuts off just over 50 hz. However, it does look like an awful lot of artifact given the dark waves with frequent crossovers above zero on the raw wave. The look of artifact is also supicious in the 1hz bin spectrogram at the bottom in that its so uniform and high acrosss all the faster frequency bins.

Have you tried using eeg paste and comparing what you get?

DVD's can certainly cause artifacts in some computer systems due to cpu pinning and windows resource use. What's the cpu load when running the session/

My own biograph gives me warnings sometimes around data aquistion due to to CPU pinning and I it's due to some windows tasks eating up resources in the background. Some times with my system its the file indexing in windows that decides to do its thing. Other times it some new software for an external back up drive that starts chugging away.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.

The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.

Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 21, 2011

oh dear, I sent the wrong screenshot before! here is the right one, attachedOn Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

I believe I've gotten decent signals at other times.I'm attaching yet another screenshot -- everything the same but in my garden! What is the tall green on the spectrograph at 0? Also you can see that there isn't much 60-cycle. I used another pendant and dongle set, too! (I bought a few used ones awhile back). I just don't understand, except if it is actually...DEMONIC POSSESSION...

LizOn Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 6:04 AM, <hobs27458@...> wrote:

Unless I've missed something, you haven't said whether this is a case of one,

or all of the time?

Re: why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Here's another screenshot -- everything the same, except -- a different laptop! does this one look better? (I changed the range on the colored bar graph so that you can see the 60Hz now. Thanks for looking.

Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Bruce, Thanks for your response. I just used EEG paste and got weird artifact also, even without using a DVD. Just running BE without any feedback at all. We moved to different rooms, too. Changed ALL electrodes and used paste with them. Even changed pendants!

Driving me nuts. I will have to check CPU usage, thanks for the tip. I'm ready to buy the $50 Mattel toy where your brain pushes the ball around and call it a day. Well, almost.Liz

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Bruce Z. Berman <MindFitness@...> wrote:

Hi LIz,

Your graph does not show up to 60hz. The image cuts off just over 50 hz. However, it does look like an awful lot of artifact given the dark waves with frequent crossovers above zero on the raw wave. The look of artifact is also supicious in the 1hz bin spectrogram at the bottom in that its so uniform and high acrosss all the faster frequency bins.

Have you tried using eeg paste and comparing what you get?

DVD's can certainly cause artifacts in some computer systems due to cpu pinning and windows resource use. What's the cpu load when running the session/

My own biograph gives me warnings sometimes around data aquistion due to to CPU pinning and I it's due to some windows tasks eating up resources in the background. Some times with my system its the file indexing in windows that decides to do its thing. Other times it some new software for an external back up drive that starts chugging away.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.

The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.

Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

1 of 1 Photo(s)

April 21, 2011

Thanks, Bruce. I'm trying to set up a supervision session with somebody I work with sometimes in New York and I'm going to bring everything to his office and try to start all over again setting things up.Liz

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 3:57 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

Most of that stuff up to 3 Hz is proably artifact, the higher frequency stuff also looks like artifact.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.

The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.

Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 21, 2011

Pete, I'm going to think about all that -- the electrodes, not too much saline. Hair, as far as my husband is concerned, is, um, not a problem.However, in the new screenshot I attached, you can see that there is no 60-cycle. But there is this very tall green line at the far left of the spectroscope. Do you know what type of interference that might indicate? and are there any sorts of filters out there that I might try? Thanks.

LizOn Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:17 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

I have seen three places where there was severe electromagnetic noise we could not get rid of. In 20 years of working with a LOT of systems and places: one was a block from a TV transmitter in Sao o; one was downstairs from a police station with lots of ratio equipment going all the time in Zurich; one was...well, we never did figure out what THAT one was, but it was in central California.

80+% of the 60 Hz problems I've seen were resolved with excellent prepping and keeping the hair out from under the electrodes as much as possible. If you are using saline, by careful not to over-wet the electrodes, as the water can run on the scalp and create " antennae " to pick up signals from the environment--or actually connect two electrodes by mistake. Another 10% were resolved by changing electrodes that had gotten a scratch (something other than pure silver) or a nick in the insulation of one of the wires.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

2-prongs, Pete, but I did unplug the power supply and the laptop, and walked around the rooms with it (with my husband walking around, hooked up) -- this is so frustrating. Sometimes I get a decent signal, but mostly I don't. And there are 3 different laptops we keep trying.

Will keep working on it, thanks.LizOn Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:44 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Are you using a laptop with a 2-prong or 3-prong plug? Try unplugging the AC adaptor from the wall and the computer while you are running and see if the signal cleans up. If you are using a 2-prong plug, even in a grounded outlet, you won't get the benefit of the grounding, and you are likely to have a noisy signal.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

That still looks strange, although the raw looks somewhat better. That looks somewhat like the readings I used to get in my office when I had my notch filter disabled.

Are you using a notch filter?

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.

The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.

Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 21, 2011

Liz, in looking over my own QEEG report from Jay gunkalman, it had a qualifier like what shows up in psych testing reports about generilizablility from clinical samples to non clinical samples. In terms of the qualifier that for QEEG that is relevent to what you might be seeing, it mentioned that anything below 4hz could be do to pulse artifacts and other such artifacts. Are you using the lower earlobe as a reference? If so try the upper earlobe or the mastoid and see if that goes down alot.

I also think that the higher freeqency aspects of your spectrogram might have some EMG going on(swallowing, gulping, forehead tension, etc.

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no "sync errors," ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 21, 2011

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.LizOn Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Pete, I'm going to think about all that -- the electrodes, not too much saline. Hair, as far as my husband is concerned, is, um, not a problem.

However, in the new screenshot I attached, you can see that there is no 60-cycle. But there is this very tall green line at the far left of the spectroscope. Do you know what type of interference that might indicate? and are there any sorts of filters out there that I might try? Thanks.

LizOn Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:17 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

I have seen three places where there was severe electromagnetic noise we could not get rid of. In 20 years of working with a LOT of systems and places: one was a block from a TV transmitter in Sao o; one was downstairs from a police station with lots of ratio equipment going all the time in Zurich; one was...well, we never did figure out what THAT one was, but it was in central California.

80+% of the 60 Hz problems I've seen were resolved with excellent prepping and keeping the hair out from under the electrodes as much as possible. If you are using saline, by careful not to over-wet the electrodes, as the water can run on the scalp and create " antennae " to pick up signals from the environment--or actually connect two electrodes by mistake. Another 10% were resolved by changing electrodes that had gotten a scratch (something other than pure silver) or a nick in the insulation of one of the wires.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

2-prongs, Pete, but I did unplug the power supply and the laptop, and walked around the rooms with it (with my husband walking around, hooked up) -- this is so frustrating. Sometimes I get a decent signal, but mostly I don't. And there are 3 different laptops we keep trying.

Will keep working on it, thanks.LizOn Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:44 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Are you using a laptop with a 2-prong or 3-prong plug? Try unplugging the AC adaptor from the wall and the computer while you are running and see if the signal cleans up. If you are using a 2-prong plug, even in a grounded outlet, you won't get the benefit of the grounding, and you are likely to have a noisy signal.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

That still looks strange, although the raw looks somewhat better. That looks somewhat like the readings I used to get in my office when I had my notch filter disabled.

Are you using a notch filter?

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.

The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.

Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

1 of 1 Photo(s)

April 22, 2011

Liz,It's hard to tell much from a single screen shot. If I can play and pause, I can make most any EEG spectrogram look wonderful or horrible. I also can't tell from the screenshot what the low end of the spectrogram is set to. Large surges in very slow activity can be eye blinks or movement or just surges in slow activity or, as Bruce suggested, other types of artifact. If you have tried new electrodes and are still getting it, then it might be the brain.

The question for me is whether you have actually trained, and if so what kind of response you've had. If you don't have 60 Hz interference, and the EEG is shifting smoothly and organically (no constant spikes at regular intervals) then forget about all the time spent trying to verify that the signal is okay or what's wrong with the hardware or software and just train the brain.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Pete, I'm going to think about all that -- the electrodes, not too much saline. Hair, as far as my husband is concerned, is, um, not a problem.However, in the new screenshot I attached, you can see that there is no 60-cycle. But there is this very tall green line at the far left of the spectroscope. Do you know what type of interference that might indicate? and are there any sorts of filters out there that I might try? Thanks.

LizOn Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:17 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

I have seen three places where there was severe electromagnetic noise we could not get rid of. In 20 years of working with a LOT of systems and places: one was a block from a TV transmitter in Sao o; one was downstairs from a police station with lots of ratio equipment going all the time in Zurich; one was...well, we never did figure out what THAT one was, but it was in central California.

80+% of the 60 Hz problems I've seen were resolved with excellent prepping and keeping the hair out from under the electrodes as much as possible. If you are using saline, by careful not to over-wet the electrodes, as the water can run on the scalp and create " antennae " to pick up signals from the environment--or actually connect two electrodes by mistake. Another 10% were resolved by changing electrodes that had gotten a scratch (something other than pure silver) or a nick in the insulation of one of the wires.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

2-prongs, Pete, but I did unplug the power supply and the laptop, and walked around the rooms with it (with my husband walking around, hooked up) -- this is so frustrating. Sometimes I get a decent signal, but mostly I don't. And there are 3 different laptops we keep trying.

Will keep working on it, thanks.LizOn Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:44 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Are you using a laptop with a 2-prong or 3-prong plug? Try unplugging the AC adaptor from the wall and the computer while you are running and see if the signal cleans up. If you are using a 2-prong plug, even in a grounded outlet, you won't get the benefit of the grounding, and you are likely to have a noisy signal.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

That still looks strange, although the raw looks somewhat better. That looks somewhat like the readings I used to get in my office when I had my notch filter disabled.

Are you using a notch filter?

Bruce Z. Berman

why oh why this signal?? [1 Attachment]

I'm attaching a screenshot from a session I just did with my son. I wish I could say this was NOT typical, but, alas, I cannot. The details: 1 ch at CZ (I figured it was the easiest place to do it and to prep); 1 ear is a reference and the other is a ground. Everything's prepped with prepping paste. I DO, however, use saline with a Neuroband, not electrode paste, but I have wrapped the electrodes in fluffy felt before sticking them in the Vecro band. Everything is soaked with saline solution.

The pendant is saying everything is connected properly. no " sync errors, " ch 1 is green all the time, ch 2 is sometimes flashing red, but since I'm not using it I figure that's not a problem.

Using a DVD for feedback but that wouldn't be an issue, right?Using a TLC design, 1 ch, reinforcing theta down, hibeta down, and Good Beta up.spectrogram does NOT show much 60Hz, right??So why do I have a big mess of a signal???

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.

I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.

thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " . Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com

that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.

I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.

thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " . Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigateHere is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.htmlOn Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigateHere is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring.

http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!

LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.

I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.

thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " . Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer. Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigateHere is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.htmlOn Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.

I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.

thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " . Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

,Just in case you're in the mood, here is the screenshot of the typical lousy EEG I'm getting, now conveniently on the web:http://www.echonyc.com/~neander/EEG.jpg

You can see that there is no significant 60-cycle, yet there is a very strange signal and there is a spike of very low frequency.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?

The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.

I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.

thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " . Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

,Just in case you're in the mood, here is the screenshot of the typical lousy EEG I'm getting, now conveniently on the web:http://www.echonyc.com/~neander/EEG.jpg

You can see that there is no significant 60-cycle, yet there is a very strange signal and there is a spike of very low frequency.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?

The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?

ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer.

Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.

On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigate

Here is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.html

On Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:

,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote:

Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.

THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solution

On Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:

Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.

I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my " old trusty " laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.

thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz " noise " . Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a " battery effect " from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]

An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other activities.

So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale " from some online outlet)

So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.

Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

Liz,The grounding device is for use with laptops that do not have 3 pronged plugs. Using it allows you to plug the laptop in, get a clean signal and not have to rely on batter power.A static image is hard to decipher. If you send the actual saved session (if you have it) it would be easier to see what was wrong.On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Margoshes wrote:,Just in case you're in the mood, here is the screenshot of the typical lousy EEG I'm getting, now conveniently on the web:http://www.echonyc.com/~neander/EEG.jpgYou can see that there is no significant 60-cycle, yet there is a very strange signal and there is a spike of very low frequency.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer. Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigateHere is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.htmlOn Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

Liz,The grounding device is for use with laptops that do not have 3 pronged plugs. Using it allows you to plug the laptop in, get a clean signal and not have to rely on batter power.A static image is hard to decipher. If you send the actual saved session (if you have it) it would be easier to see what was wrong.On Apr 22, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Margoshes wrote:,Just in case you're in the mood, here is the screenshot of the typical lousy EEG I'm getting, now conveniently on the web:http://www.echonyc.com/~neander/EEG.jpgYou can see that there is no significant 60-cycle, yet there is a very strange signal and there is a spike of very low frequency.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:,I will try that. I guess you're saying that a grounded plugged-in laptop is more grounded than a laptop running on a battery?The thing is, though, I'm not always getting any 60-cycle! I'm getting something in the very low frequences, like 0-1 -- there is a line that is shooting up all the way on my spectrograph, that is in that very very low range, even when I don't have 60-cycle. Do you know what that type of interference might signify?ThanksLizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:06 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,Plug the cord into a grounded outlet. (three prong). If you have an old computer cord that you are not using, take out of it one of the long screws that tighten it to the port on the back of the computer. Screw this screw into place alongside any open port on the back of your computer. Attach the alligator clip to it and your computer will be grounded. Then using it plugged in will be free of 60 hz interference.On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Margoshes wrote:,Where would I place the cord? I am using a laptop running on a battery. Nothing is plugged in. Thanks.LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:54 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,THe site is a mess and hard to navigateHere is a page with grounding cords. They use only the ground wire off a 3 pronged plug. One terminates with an alligator clip, one terminates with a small ring. http://www.lessemf.com/ground.htmlOn Apr 22, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Margoshes wrote:,That's a website with hundreds of products. Can you tell me which product you're referring to? Thanks!LizOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: Liz,I cobbled together a means of doing this years ago. It was crude and ugly but it worked.THere is a place on the web www.lessemf.com that sells an adaptor that you can use in the same way, A much more elegant solutionOn Apr 22, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Margoshes wrote:Pete,Wow. So...not sure what to do now. I had a phone consultation with someone who supervises me sometimes (Larry ) and he read me something that wrote some years ago about grounding a machine using copper wire attached to the screws on the sides of the serial port -- that is, making a kind of antenna. That was going to be my next plan for the two laptops that are still un-usable.I can't see that the problem is with my electrodes, since they work fine with my "old trusty" laptop.I guess I will try to do the antenna thing with the other laptops and see what happens.thanks for your info.Liz On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:29 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: If you are not using the laptop plugged in (you said you were using them on batteries), it makes no difference whether the adaptor is grounded or not. In any case, I can't come up with a way that the computer would cause 2-5 Hz "noise". Noise is up in the 60 Hz range where you are. I have never run into a computer that created a problem with signal quality on battery. Electrodes can, if the offset is bad or if they are other than pure silver or pure tin and you have developed a "battery effect" from bi-metallic electrodes resulting from scratched or flaking plating.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Margoshes included below]An interesting development!Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop before, but I am trying to set up a "workstation" devoted to NF with these other machines so I could preserve use of the "trusty old" for other activities. So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one that has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is fine! (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up; if, in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same old horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned IBM T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got "on sale" from some online outlet)So -- what I learned -- I learned that my "trusty old" still gives a fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or something like that.Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded or shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other computers to do NF with -- especially since the "trusty old" has been giving me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

April 22, 2011

Liz, can you send an image of the 3d spectra which covers the whole recording

session. Pete made a good point, which such an image might adress. The images

you have been sending only cover very brief time periods and any particular time

period can look good or bad or good given that you don't see the movement of the

data points through time.

It just occured to me that some of these images you have been sending only look

bad because of its one breif snap shot covering a very short period of time.

The magnitude of the low frequency in you last image is not realy wierd, for

such frequencies given it's only covering a period where it surged and surges of

magnitude are common. The 3d spectra over the entire recording session would

claifiy this for you.

Bruce Z. Berman

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>

[Attachment(s)<#12f7dd1aafeb1d3b_12f7dc058af4a76d_12f7d7e197bd6860_12f7d6deb8fe5\

317_12f7c548f61cd876_12f7a844da5be29e_TopText>

> >>>>>> from Margoshes included below]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> An interesting development!

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Okay, so those horrible signals were from two different laptops, that

> >>>>>> I have not used for NF before. I had always used my trusty old laptop

> >>>>>> before, but I am trying to set up a " workstation " devoted to NF with

these

> >>>>>> other machines so I could preserve use of the " trusty old " for other

> >>>>>> activities.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- here was my experiment: I got out new electrodes (new earclips

> >>>>>> and 1 new regular electrode); I used paste, not saline; and, most

> >>>>>> importantly, I connected everything to my OLD trusty laptop, the one

that

> >>>>>> has given me decent readings, and I believe that the EEG signal is

fine!

> >>>>>> (Note: I am attaching a screenshot of some of the EEG with this set-up;

if,

> >>>>>> in fact, it's NOT good, please tell me!) --

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- I then transferred the pendant's dongle and the BE hasp into

> >>>>>> each of the laptops I got the bad signal with, and --- voila! the same

old

> >>>>>> horrible lousy interference, with both of them! (one's a reconditioned

IBM

> >>>>>> T42, and the other is a pretty darned new Toshiba that I got " on sale "

from

> >>>>>> some online outlet)

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> So -- what I learned -- I learned that my " trusty old " still gives a

> >>>>>> fine signal! (at least I think it's fine) -- but my old IBM and my

> >>>>>> crappy-outlet new Toshiba are, somehow, not properly grounded!! or

something

> >>>>>> like that.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Does anyone have any idea what to do about this? Is it really true

> >>>>>> that there are laptops that you can't use because they're not grounded

or

> >>>>>> shielded enough or something?? I would like to be able to use other

> >>>>>> computers to do NF with -- especially since the " trusty old " has been

giving

> >>>>>> me some problems lately and I'm afraid it doesn't have much time left!

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Thanks, as usual, for any suggestions.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Liz

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> --

> >>>>

> >>>> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >>>> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >>>> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

> >>>>

> >>>

> >>> --

> >>> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >>> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >>> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

> >>>

> >>

> >> --

> >> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

> >>

> >

> > --

> > Margoshes, Ph.D.

> > New York State Licensed Psychologist

> > <http://www.finishingschool.org>

> >

>

> --

> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> <http://www.finishingschool.org>

>

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Re: why oh why this signal??

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