Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Ron, you have experienced an altered state of consciousness being fully awake, induced by the strobe lights. The conditions for it happening are very individual. You cannot predict or calculate special strobe light frequencies in order to make the altered state happen foreseeable. You can train that type of alpha/theta repeating that strobe light protocol over and over. Sometimes your physiology may follow, sometimes not. After some time (in the scale of months) you get more practice to enter such states, your physiology learns to "handle" such states. Uwe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Checkout this study, I think it may be of interest. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:12 AM, duquesne97217 <ryon@...> wrote: In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly two days and still be awake and fully conscious. Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a purely random frequency but there were also times when that same strobe test produced no effects at all. While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. Ron ____________ " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange. " –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– 1 of 1 File(s) Lehtonen.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Thanks for the article, but that author was no more conclusive in reliably triggring a desired frequncy than anyone or anything else. Sigh... Ron > > > ** > > > > > > In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > > Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > > didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > > While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > > Ron > > > > ____________ > > > > " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is > > never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange. " > > > > –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Ron,I have to admit that I'm not too clear on why it is you want to walk around in a theta/delta state (8 Hz and 4Hz) state--something many people work with brain trainers to be able to STOP doing! Is there some goal in your life, something you want to be able to do faster, better or more easily than you do now, that you think will be changed by pushing your brain to sleep while it's awake? Second, how exactly did you know that you were " in " a particular frequency for up to 48 hours? And how did you define that term? 40% of the EEG, 60% was in a single frequency? The great majority of the brains I've seen over the years don't stay in one state or frequency for long periods. One great benefit of the brain lies in its very ability to shift states on a dime depending on what task lies before it, but that seems to disappoint and irritate you. You're basically seeking something that will shove this amazing organ into a state that's about as natural as teaching a killer whale to walk on its flippers (assuming they have flippers). So help me out here, if you will. What exactly are you hoping to achieve--other than higher amplitudes in 1 or 2 frequencies--with your quest?Thanks, Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895 BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:26 PM, duquesne97217 <ryon@...> wrote: Thanks for the article, but that author was no more conclusive in reliably triggring a desired frequncy than anyone or anything else. Sigh... Ron > > > ** > > > > > > In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > > Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > > didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > > While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > > Ron > > > > ____________ > > > > " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is > > never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange. " > > > > –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Pete,Thank you for coming to the same conclusion! When I read that I was like " they figured out how to trick the brain into " open focus " before Les Fehmi even knew what alpha synchrony was! " Of course it appears that they only did it in the occipital which makes sense since it's our optic center. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the logic behind the Roshi products I've seen around? (glasses with flashing LEDs? " ) Zumbach On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: ,Ah, thank god for researchers. Because alpha is largest in the posterior brain, it is related to visual processing. What these guys showed, without quite saying so, 40 years ago is that what Les Fehmi calls " open focus awareness " (no visual fixation, in their terms) produces synchronous alpha. When you close focus, which is a beta state, alpha goes away and it becomes desynchronized. Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Zumbach <zumbach@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Zumbach included below] Checkout this study, I think it may be of interest. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:12 AM, duquesne97217 <ryon@...> wrote: In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly two days and still be awake and fully conscious. Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a purely random frequency but there were also times when that same strobe test produced no effects at all. While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. Ron ____________ " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange. " –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 ,Photic stimulation has broader effects than just the posterior portions of the brain. A presentation several years ago showed increased perfusion in the frontal lobes after 10 hz photic stim. Similar results have been seen with the Roshi. Chuck has a session graph of HEG measures before and during a Roshi session and it shows marked increases in perfusion, The occipital may be the primary receptor for visual stimulus but the the networked effects are quite robust.On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Zumbach wrote:Pete,Thank you for coming to the same conclusion! When I read that I was like "they figured out how to trick the brain into "open focus" before Les Fehmi even knew what alpha synchrony was!" Of course it appears that they only did it in the occipital which makes sense since it's our optic center.Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the logic behind the Roshi products I've seen around? (glasses with flashing LEDs?") ZumbachOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: ,Ah, thank god for researchers. Because alpha is largest in the posterior brain, it is related to visual processing. What these guys showed, without quite saying so, 40 years ago is that what Les Fehmi calls "open focus awareness" (no visual fixation, in their terms) produces synchronous alpha. When you close focus, which is a beta state, alpha goes away and it becomes desynchronized.Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Zumbach <zumbach@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Zumbach included below]Checkout this study, I think it may be of interest. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:12 AM, duquesne97217 <ryon@...> wrote: In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/aretotally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe testpart of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that Iwas amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearlytwo days and still be awake and fully conscious.Th "problem" is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobedidn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at apurely random frequency but there were also times when that samestrobe test produced no effects at all. While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some bigflaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Doesanyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results fromthis technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache.Ron____________"Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange." –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 ,Thank you for the information! I think it may interest everyone reading this thread to know that Les Fehmi has embedded a form of " photic stimulation " into his stand-alone EEG that he sells. It is a box with a built in strobe, sensitivity knobs (for delay on feedback as well as sensitivity in micro-volts, as it uses a summed amplitude measure to detect synchrony), and a saline nylon head strap setup for OZ, CZ, FPZ, T3, and T4. Interesting right? I have been training synchrony with a similar setup but sans the strobe light feature and I have to say that when I finally had to chance to experience an hour long session with the photic stimulation the difference was amazingly apparent for several days following (though with strongly diminished effects on day 2). For clarification the strobe is pointed right at your eyes during the session and you have your eyes shut. I'm wondering now what pulse rate, pattern, or deliberate lack of pattern Fehmi decided to use in his form of photic stimulation....Any thoughts about what I have written would be greatly appreciated. ZumbachOn Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: ,Photic stimulation has broader effects than just the posterior portions of the brain. A presentation several years ago showed increased perfusion in the frontal lobes after 10 hz photic stim. Similar results have been seen with the Roshi. Chuck has a session graph of HEG measures before and during a Roshi session and it shows marked increases in perfusion, The occipital may be the primary receptor for visual stimulus but the the networked effects are quite robust. On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Zumbach wrote: Pete,Thank you for coming to the same conclusion! When I read that I was like " they figured out how to trick the brain into " open focus " before Les Fehmi even knew what alpha synchrony was! " Of course it appears that they only did it in the occipital which makes sense since it's our optic center. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the logic behind the Roshi products I've seen around? (glasses with flashing LEDs? " ) Zumbach On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: ,Ah, thank god for researchers. Because alpha is largest in the posterior brain, it is related to visual processing. What these guys showed, without quite saying so, 40 years ago is that what Les Fehmi calls " open focus awareness " (no visual fixation, in their terms) produces synchronous alpha. When you close focus, which is a beta state, alpha goes away and it becomes desynchronized. Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Zumbach <zumbach@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Zumbach included below] Checkout this study, I think it may be of interest. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:12 AM, duquesne97217 <ryon@...> wrote: In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe testpart of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearlytwo days and still be awake and fully conscious.Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobedidn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a purely random frequency but there were also times when that samestrobe test produced no effects at all. While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some bigflaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results fromthis technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. Ron____________ " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange. " –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 ,I was able to attend a open focus workshop at iSNR a few years ago and had a session with the Training and Photic stim. The session was not really long but the post session effects were very pleasing. At that time, if I remember right, the light strobed at 10 hz. He has created special analogue filters for his setup. I think the timing he uses on the flashes, delay, is really an important part of the his training approach.I remember the first time I had a Roshi session iSNR I had lasting effect for two or so days,It would be interesting to investigate the effects of his photic feedback.I have used the Roshi (not pRoshi), QDS photostim and the Spectra glasses from Sound Health Products (affiliated with Swingles clinic) All have had beneficial results with clients, and I have liked (and continue to use) them myself.On Apr 4, 2012, at 9:47 PM, Zumbach wrote:,Thank you for the information! I think it may interest everyone reading this thread to know that Les Fehmi has embedded a form of "photic stimulation" into his stand-alone EEG that he sells. It is a box with a built in strobe, sensitivity knobs (for delay on feedback as well as sensitivity in micro-volts, as it uses a summed amplitude measure to detect synchrony), and a saline nylon head strap setup for OZ, CZ, FPZ, T3, and T4. Interesting right?I have been training synchrony with a similar setup but sans the strobe light feature and I have to say that when I finally had to chance to experience an hour long session with the photic stimulation the difference was amazingly apparent for several days following (though with strongly diminished effects on day 2). For clarification the strobe is pointed right at your eyes during the session and you have your eyes shut.I'm wondering now what pulse rate, pattern, or deliberate lack of pattern Fehmi decided to use in his form of photic stimulation....Any thoughts about what I have written would be greatly appreciated. ZumbachOn Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: ,Photic stimulation has broader effects than just the posterior portions of the brain. A presentation several years ago showed increased perfusion in the frontal lobes after 10 hz photic stim. Similar results have been seen with the Roshi. Chuck has a session graph of HEG measures before and during a Roshi session and it shows marked increases in perfusion, The occipital may be the primary receptor for visual stimulus but the the networked effects are quite robust.On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Zumbach wrote:Pete,Thank you for coming to the same conclusion! When I read that I was like "they figured out how to trick the brain into "open focus" before Les Fehmi even knew what alpha synchrony was!" Of course it appears that they only did it in the occipital which makes sense since it's our optic center.Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the logic behind the Roshi products I've seen around? (glasses with flashing LEDs?") ZumbachOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: ,Ah, thank god for researchers. Because alpha is largest in the posterior brain, it is related to visual processing. What these guys showed, without quite saying so, 40 years ago is that what Les Fehmi calls "open focus awareness" (no visual fixation, in their terms) produces synchronous alpha. When you close focus, which is a beta state, alpha goes away and it becomes desynchronized.Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Zumbach <zumbach@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Zumbach included below]Checkout this study, I think it may be of interest. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:12 AM, duquesne97217 <ryon@...> wrote: In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/aretotally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe testpart of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that Iwas amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearlytwo days and still be awake and fully conscious.Th "problem" is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobedidn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at apurely random frequency but there were also times when that samestrobe test produced no effects at all. While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some bigflaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Doesanyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results fromthis technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache.Ron____________"Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange." –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 > I have to admit that I'm not too clear on why it is you want to walk around > in a theta/delta state (8 Hz and 4Hz) state--something many people work > with brain trainers to be able to STOP doing! LOL. I didn't want to be in 4 hz theta -- although that had some amazing consequences-- but it was the random result of an EEG strobe test. Overthe years I've had about five of them: initially because I had chronic headaches due to a head accident when I was a kid. More recently, because of fibromyalgia. Each EEG ended with the usual strobe test for epilepsy but three times nothing particular happened while one time I was locked onto 8 Hz for 24 to 48 hours, and another time at 4 Hz. The test starts at 2 Hz (technically, flashes per second) up and goes up to 20 fps with a ten second or so interlude between a shift in flash rate and sometimes accompanied with hyperventilation. No seizures but usually a worse headache and on some rare occasions my brain waves would lock onto some random frequency for a while. Because of the fibro my brainwaves are never normal beta but usually 9 to 10 Hz alpha with what the neurologists call " anomalous theta. " Over the years I have gone into spontaneous theta for brief periods but never as low as 4 Hz and still be awake. I was still terribly dizzy. It has been said that 30 minutes at 5 Hz theta is equal to eight hours of deep sleep; personally, I wouldn't know about that. When growing up besides headaches I had (and still have) ADD which I hear is caused by too much theta. And in normal healthy people, 7 Hz would lead to various fear and anxiety responses-- acoustically this would be the bogus " brown note " -- but studies have confirmed that that particularly frequency produces a variety of negative effects from aggression to anxiety in awake individuals. But not everybody is normal. > So help me out here, if you will. What exactly are you hoping to > achieve--other than higher amplitudes in 1 or 2 frequencies--with > your quest? In the movies and on TV you have freaks like , Annie Wheaton (Rose Red), Grey, Tyler (the 4400), and Xavier (the X-Men) and many people assume that's all just fiction. But somebody did a study way back in the arly '70s and decided that some 12 to 15 per cent of the world's population has some sort of " wild talents; " there's even a story-- said to be true-- about how Jung was discussing this with Freud and told him that he could do something amazing and a moment later a loud rapping noise suddenly came from Freud's bookcase. Jung did it again much to his friend's astonishment. I was thinking about that the day I was a taking a tortuous psych exam to get disability. It was a hot summer day over 100 F outside and I was sick, tired, and in no mood to spend two or more hours taking a test like that after having gon through so many before. I was wishing something would happen like with Jung and Freud when there was a rumbling and the picture on the opposite wall literally exploded. The psychologist stared at the wall for a long moment, and much to my surprise, asked me if I believed in ESP. Since I was desperately trying to get disability and my last chance, I didn't know what to say, I decided to take the neutral way out of a bizarre situation and lie, and said " no. " I don't think he believed me (here in Oregon, weird shit is fairly common and most " Webfoots " have no problem with anything paranormal), but much to my amazement, he actually *put it in his report* to the Social Security Administration: " The subject does not believe in ESP. " So okay, I might very well be crazy but if so, there are *a lot* of people like me who whn upset or bored seem to cause books to fall off of shelves, bend silverware, and the many other things so often attributed to " poltergeists. " But at least I can say that I'm in good company as there are people like the late Crichton and writer Cadin and many others who despites claims by the less than amazing Randi that such things is [scientifically] impossible and nothing but fakery, they learned to bend forks and spoons at will. The Monroe Institute people did an interesting but controversial study on a number of talented folks with various abilities and found that the majority of the 75 known wild talents are triggered by theta; the rest are alpha-basd. The late Elmer Greene did tests on a famous swami to see what was going on his brain when doing PK tricks for scientists and indeed, 7 Hz was the predominant frequency involved. There are probably better things to do one's time, but like Adam on MythBusters, when you learn a trick few others can do, it can be fun heh heh. Ron ___________ " Psychokinetics-- sometimes called psychodynamics or telekinetics-- is a subject to which very few nonpsis have given serious consideration. Nothing worthwhile concerning it is in general circulation, since it can be handled only in the esoteric symbology of paraphysics and paramechanics; both of which disciplines are closed books to non-psionic minds. " –– E.E. " Doc " (Subspace Encounters) — > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > > > totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > > > part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > > > lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > > > 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > > > was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > > > two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > > > > > > Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > > > > didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > > > purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > > > strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > > > > > > While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > > > flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > > > anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > > > this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > > > tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > ____________ > > > > > > > > " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know > > is > > > > never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and > > strange. " > > > > > > > > –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Synchrony is coherence in phase--a stable relationship over time between two sites in a frequency which is in phase.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@... http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 2:34 PM, devidasbhonde <devidasbhonde@...> wrote: Hi Pete, Does " synchronous " alpha mean both in phase and frequency ? Having correlation maximum over time ? Regards, Devidas > > > >> ** > >> > >> > >> In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > >> totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > >> part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > >> lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > >> 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > >> was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > >> two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > >> > >> Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > >> didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > >> purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > >> strobe test produced no effects at all. > >> > >> While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > >> flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > >> anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > >> this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > >> tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > >> > >> Ron > >> > >> ____________ > >> > >> " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is > >> never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange. " > >> > >> –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > >> > >> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Thank you Pete, Means both the waves have same frequency and their starting point is at the same time. Right ? Regards, Devidas > > > > > > > >> ** > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > > >> totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > > >> part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > > >> lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > > >> 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > > >> was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > > >> two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > >> > > > >> Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > > > >> didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > > >> purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > > >> strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > >> > > > >> While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > > >> flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > > >> anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > > >> this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > > >> tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > >> > > > >> Ron > > > >> > > > >> ____________ > > > >> > > > >> " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to > > know is > > > >> never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and > > strange. " > > > >> > > > >> –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 right-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895 BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:16 AM, devidasbhonde <devidasbhonde@...> wrote: Thank you Pete, Means both the waves have same frequency and their starting point is at the same time. Right ? Regards, Devidas > > > > > > > >> ** > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > > >> totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > > >> part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > > >> lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > > >> 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > > >> was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > > >> two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > >> > > > >> Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > > > >> didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > > >> purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > > >> strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > >> > > > >> While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > > >> flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > > >> anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > > >> this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > > >> tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > >> > > > >> Ron > > > >> > > > >> ____________ > > > >> > > > >> " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to > > know is > > > >> never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and > > strange. " > > > >> > > > >> –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 And can you say something about the electrode placements, had mentioned ? Which one is most likely to be ground C3 or FPz ? And Bipolar or monopolar ? Could they be comparing Bipolar (Oz with FPz) And (T3 with T4) ? Or monopolar ? (so many possibilities) All looking very interesting. This set up sounds like a happiness charm :-) Best Regards, Devidas > > > > > > > > > > > >> ** > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > > > > >> totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > > > > >> part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > > > > >> lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > > > > >> 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > > > > >> was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > > > > >> two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the > > strobe > > > > > >> didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > > > > >> purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > > > > >> strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > > > > >> flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > > > > >> anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > > > > >> this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > > > > >> tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Ron > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ____________ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to > > > > know is > > > > > >> never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and > > > > strange. " > > > > > >> > > > > > >> –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Pete,What's another kind of coherence that's not synchrony?LizOn Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:46 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: right-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com USA 678 224 5895 BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:16 AM, devidasbhonde <devidasbhonde@...> wrote: Thank you Pete, Means both the waves have same frequency and their starting point is at the same time. Right ? Regards, Devidas > > > > > > > >> ** > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > > >> totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > > >> part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > > >> lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > > >> 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > > >> was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > > >> two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > >> > > > >> Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > > > >> didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > > >> purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > > >> strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > >> > > > >> While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > > >> flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > > >> anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > > >> this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > > >> tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > >> > > > >> Ron > > > >> > > > >> ____________ > > > >> > > > >> " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to > > know is > > > >> never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and > > strange. " > > > >> > > > >> –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Coherence just means the relationship is stable. It could be in phase (zero phase angle), 180 degrees out of phase (peak lined up with trough or anywhere in between. Coherence speaks to stability of the relationship. Phase speaks to the timing. Synchrony is when the timing relationship between two signals is consistently the same and the firing and recharge periods line up. -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA'>http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235 The Learning Curve, Inc. On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: Pete,What's another kind of coherence that's not synchrony?LizOn Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:46 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: right-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com USA 678 224 5895 BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:16 AM, devidasbhonde <devidasbhonde@...> wrote: Thank you Pete, Means both the waves have same frequency and their starting point is at the same time. Right ? Regards, Devidas > > > > > > > >> ** > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > > >> totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > > >> part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > > >> lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > > >> 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > > >> was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > > >> two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > >> > > > >> Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > > > >> didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > > >> purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > > >> strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > >> > > > >> While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > > >> flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > > >> anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > > >> this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > > >> tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > >> > > > >> Ron > > > >> > > > >> ____________ > > > >> > > > >> " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to > > know is > > > >> never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and > > strange. " > > > >> > > > >> –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 It is neither monopolar or bipolar Devidas. You can put the ground on the back of the neck, you need both ear references to be linked in order for the setup to work as well... how many channels do you have on your EEG? On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:01 PM, devidasbhonde <devidasbhonde@...> wrote: And can you say something about the electrode placements, had mentioned ? Which one is most likely to be ground C3 or FPz ? And Bipolar or monopolar ? Could they be comparing Bipolar (Oz with FPz) And (T3 with T4) ? Or monopolar ? (so many possibilities) All looking very interesting. This set up sounds like a happiness charm :-) Best Regards, Devidas > > > > > > > > > > > >> ** > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > > > > >> totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > > > > >> part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > > > > >> lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > > > > >> 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > > > > >> was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > > > > >> two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the > > strobe > > > > > >> didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > > > > >> purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > > > > >> strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > > > > >> flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > > > > >> anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > > > > >> this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > > > > >> tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Ron > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ____________ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to > > > > know is > > > > > >> never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and > > > > strange. " > > > > > >> > > > > > >> –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Thanks, Pete! Margoshes, Ph.D.NY State Licensed PsychologistOn Apr 6, 2012, at 1:29 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: Coherence just means the relationship is stable. It could be in phase (zero phase angle), 180 degrees out of phase (peak lined up with trough or anywhere in between. Coherence speaks to stability of the relationship. Phase speaks to the timing. Synchrony is when the timing relationship between two signals is consistently the same and the firing and recharge periods line up. -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA'>http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235 The Learning Curve, Inc. On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote: Pete,What's another kind of coherence that's not synchrony?LizOn Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:46 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: right-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com USA 678 224 5895 BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:16 AM, devidasbhonde <devidasbhonde@...> wrote: Thank you Pete, Means both the waves have same frequency and their starting point is at the same time. Right ? Regards, Devidas > > > > > > > >> ** > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are > > > >> totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe test > > > >> part of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states > > > >> lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at > > > >> 4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I > > > >> was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearly > > > >> two days and still be awake and fully conscious. > > > >> > > > >> Th "problem" is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobe > > > >> didn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a > > > >> purely random frequency but there were also times when that same > > > >> strobe test produced no effects at all. > > > >> > > > >> While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some big > > > >> flaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does > > > >> anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results from > > > >> this technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've > > > >> tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. > > > >> > > > >> Ron > > > >> > > > >> ____________ > > > >> > > > >> "Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to > > know is > > > >> never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and > > strange." > > > >> > > > >> –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 ,If you were to recommend a photo-stim device which would you recommend? I can't find the QDS photo-stim for sale anywhere, I have an Excalibur so I assume I would need to have that in order to have the photo stimulation tied to particular EEG events (synchrony). The Roshi is constant photo stimulation correct? The spectra glasses are fairly cheap but I can't tell if they are really supposed to cause the same effect as the other strobes as they are marketed as having a variety of different uses... and it says that they are to be used with eyes open too which is really confusing to me. To me the whole point of the photo stimulation is to trick the occipital regions into entering synchrony and then to get the rest of the brain to follow suit, not to just have lights blinking while reading a book or something. I really focus all of my efforts on trying to teach people attention training/meditation through different alpha synchrony feedback setups and I really think that some sort of photo-stim product would drastically improve results. Thanks for any help sussing out the various products. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 10:26 PM, <gmartin@...> wrote: ,I was able to attend a open focus workshop at iSNR a few years ago and had a session with the Training and Photic stim. The session was not really long but the post session effects were very pleasing. At that time, if I remember right, the light strobed at 10 hz. He has created special analogue filters for his setup. I think the timing he uses on the flashes, delay, is really an important part of the his training approach. I remember the first time I had a Roshi session iSNR I had lasting effect for two or so days,It would be interesting to investigate the effects of his photic feedback. I have used the Roshi (not pRoshi), QDS photostim and the Spectra glasses from Sound Health Products (affiliated with Swingles clinic) All have had beneficial results with clients, and I have liked (and continue to use) them myself. On Apr 4, 2012, at 9:47 PM, Zumbach wrote: ,Thank you for the information! I think it may interest everyone reading this thread to know that Les Fehmi has embedded a form of " photic stimulation " into his stand-alone EEG that he sells. It is a box with a built in strobe, sensitivity knobs (for delay on feedback as well as sensitivity in micro-volts, as it uses a summed amplitude measure to detect synchrony), and a saline nylon head strap setup for OZ, CZ, FPZ, T3, and T4. Interesting right? I have been training synchrony with a similar setup but sans the strobe light feature and I have to say that when I finally had to chance to experience an hour long session with the photic stimulation the difference was amazingly apparent for several days following (though with strongly diminished effects on day 2). For clarification the strobe is pointed right at your eyes during the session and you have your eyes shut. I'm wondering now what pulse rate, pattern, or deliberate lack of pattern Fehmi decided to use in his form of photic stimulation....Any thoughts about what I have written would be greatly appreciated. ZumbachOn Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: ,Photic stimulation has broader effects than just the posterior portions of the brain. A presentation several years ago showed increased perfusion in the frontal lobes after 10 hz photic stim. Similar results have been seen with the Roshi. Chuck has a session graph of HEG measures before and during a Roshi session and it shows marked increases in perfusion, The occipital may be the primary receptor for visual stimulus but the the networked effects are quite robust. On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Zumbach wrote: Pete,Thank you for coming to the same conclusion! When I read that I was like " they figured out how to trick the brain into " open focus " before Les Fehmi even knew what alpha synchrony was! " Of course it appears that they only did it in the occipital which makes sense since it's our optic center. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the logic behind the Roshi products I've seen around? (glasses with flashing LEDs? " ) Zumbach On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: ,Ah, thank god for researchers. Because alpha is largest in the posterior brain, it is related to visual processing. What these guys showed, without quite saying so, 40 years ago is that what Les Fehmi calls " open focus awareness " (no visual fixation, in their terms) produces synchronous alpha. When you close focus, which is a beta state, alpha goes away and it becomes desynchronized. Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Zumbach <zumbach@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Zumbach included below] Checkout this study, I think it may be of interest. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:12 AM, duquesne97217 <ryon@...> wrote: In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/are totally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe testpart of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that I was amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearlytwo days and still be awake and fully conscious.Th " problem " is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobedidn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at a purely random frequency but there were also times when that samestrobe test produced no effects at all. While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some bigflaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Does anyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results fromthis technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache. Ron____________ " Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange. " –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 , Thanks for coming in, Montage has to be either monopolar or bipolar. To me it seems mono. How many active channels, does Les use ? can you say ? Oh. My current eeg has only two. I am planning for many more... Regards, Devidas > > > ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 ,Unfortunately the QDS photostim is no longer available. Lack of interest/low sales were the problem.The EEG driven Roshi is also out of production.The Spectra glasses are used eyes open for the attention flicker It works much like Swingle's attend audio files, reducing theta. Another setting can be used eyes closed and that is how I have used it. It sweeps from one eye to another. It does quite well at reducing anxiety for some people.As far as I know there is only one system out there that does eeg driven stimulation. That is the Mind Workstation by Transparent Corporation.I have never used any of the AVE units from Photosonix or the DAVID units so I can't comment on how they would suit your purposes.I have been in communication with another person who has some prototype designs he uses for synchrony with BioEra and BioExplorer. He has some really creative routines. I'll share your email with him.On Apr 6, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Zumbach wrote:,If you were to recommend a photo-stim device which would you recommend? I can't find the QDS photo-stim for sale anywhere, I have an Excalibur so I assume I would need to have that in order to have the photo stimulation tied to particular EEG events (synchrony). The Roshi is constant photo stimulation correct? The spectra glasses are fairly cheap but I can't tell if they are really supposed to cause the same effect as the other strobes as they are marketed as having a variety of different uses... and it says that they are to be used with eyes open too which is really confusing to me. To me the whole point of the photo stimulation is to trick the occipital regions into entering synchrony and then to get the rest of the brain to follow suit, not to just have lights blinking while reading a book or something.I really focus all of my efforts on trying to teach people attention training/meditation through different alpha synchrony feedback setups and I really think that some sort of photo-stim product would drastically improve results.Thanks for any help sussing out the various products. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 10:26 PM, <gmartin@...> wrote: ,I was able to attend a open focus workshop at iSNR a few years ago and had a session with the Training and Photic stim. The session was not really long but the post session effects were very pleasing. At that time, if I remember right, the light strobed at 10 hz. He has created special analogue filters for his setup. I think the timing he uses on the flashes, delay, is really an important part of the his training approach.I remember the first time I had a Roshi session iSNR I had lasting effect for two or so days,It would be interesting to investigate the effects of his photic feedback.I have used the Roshi (not pRoshi), QDS photostim and the Spectra glasses from Sound Health Products (affiliated with Swingles clinic) All have had beneficial results with clients, and I have liked (and continue to use) them myself.On Apr 4, 2012, at 9:47 PM, Zumbach wrote:,Thank you for the information! I think it may interest everyone reading this thread to know that Les Fehmi has embedded a form of "photic stimulation" into his stand-alone EEG that he sells. It is a box with a built in strobe, sensitivity knobs (for delay on feedback as well as sensitivity in micro-volts, as it uses a summed amplitude measure to detect synchrony), and a saline nylon head strap setup for OZ, CZ, FPZ, T3, and T4. Interesting right?I have been training synchrony with a similar setup but sans the strobe light feature and I have to say that when I finally had to chance to experience an hour long session with the photic stimulation the difference was amazingly apparent for several days following (though with strongly diminished effects on day 2). For clarification the strobe is pointed right at your eyes during the session and you have your eyes shut.I'm wondering now what pulse rate, pattern, or deliberate lack of pattern Fehmi decided to use in his form of photic stimulation....Any thoughts about what I have written would be greatly appreciated. ZumbachOn Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, <gmartin@...> wrote: ,Photic stimulation has broader effects than just the posterior portions of the brain. A presentation several years ago showed increased perfusion in the frontal lobes after 10 hz photic stim. Similar results have been seen with the Roshi. Chuck has a session graph of HEG measures before and during a Roshi session and it shows marked increases in perfusion, The occipital may be the primary receptor for visual stimulus but the the networked effects are quite robust.On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Zumbach wrote:Pete,Thank you for coming to the same conclusion! When I read that I was like "they figured out how to trick the brain into "open focus" before Les Fehmi even knew what alpha synchrony was!" Of course it appears that they only did it in the occipital which makes sense since it's our optic center.Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the logic behind the Roshi products I've seen around? (glasses with flashing LEDs?") ZumbachOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote: ,Ah, thank god for researchers. Because alpha is largest in the posterior brain, it is related to visual processing. What these guys showed, without quite saying so, 40 years ago is that what Les Fehmi calls "open focus awareness" (no visual fixation, in their terms) produces synchronous alpha. When you close focus, which is a beta state, alpha goes away and it becomes desynchronized.Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Zumbach <zumbach@...> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Zumbach included below]Checkout this study, I think it may be of interest. ZOn Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:12 AM, duquesne97217 <ryon@...> wrote: In my quest for theta, I found that binaural beats is/aretotally ineffectual with me but that on occasion, the strobe testpart of EEG exams has put in me in both alpha and theta states lasting up to 48 hours; the first time at 8 Hz and once again at4 Hz. I had heard that it was possible but I hav to say that Iwas amazed that I could walk around on the dge of delta for nearlytwo days and still be awake and fully conscious.Th "problem" is that such entrainment was unpredictable: the strobedidn't always produce an effect, and when it did, it was at apurely random frequency but there were also times when that samestrobe test produced no effects at all. While in some ways better than biofeedback, there are some bigflaws associated with this kind of visual entrainment. Doesanyone here have any ideas on how to get reliable results fromthis technique to get the brain wave frequncy that I want; I've tried using a small strobe light but got nothing but a headache.Ron____________"Some success, some failure; but either way the gnawing hunger to know is never sated, and the road to the Unknown continues to be dark and strange." –– Control Voice (The Outer Limits) –– Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 , I´m one of the most experienced AVE specialists in Europe. I was a dealer of Photosonix. The "Innerpulse" is a device I can recommend. If the fixed programs are not suited enough for your goals, you can make your own ones. The DAVID devices certainly are of similar quality. As I know those only have white LED`s in the glasses, that`s a point of critics. Another splendid technique are Audiostrobe devices together with the software "Mindexplorer". The latter are my favourites today. Uwe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 > > And can you say something about the electrode placements, had mentioned ? > > Which one is most likely to be ground C3 or FPz ? > And Bipolar or monopolar ? > > Could they be comparing Bipolar (Oz with FPz) And (T3 with T4) ? > > Or monopolar ? (so many possibilities) > > All looking very interesting. > > This set up sounds like a happiness charm :-) The problem with biofedback is that it's effects are far from permanent; you can eventually get the theta (or alpha) state you might want but you have to keep at it day after day or you lose it. Bummer. ____________ " Hard-headed, practical people, luckily, were inclined to consider stories about psis to be at least ninety-nine percent superstitious nonsense. However, the ones who didn't share that belief sometimes reacted undesirably. " –– Telzey Amberdon (Company Planet) –– Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 It may be worth mentioning here that this kind of brain driving can be done with sound (binaural beats) or light. In my experience, the audio is not as insistent as the light. Len Ochs' experience with visual entrainment suggests that it is crucial to use setups (if you choose light) with the ability to turn the light intensity way down. In fact, in his device prior to the current LENS machine, he ended up putting black electrician's tape over the eye holes on the glasses so the light couldn't be seen at all and claimed that many of his clients got improved results, leading him to decide it was the (theoretically imperceptible) electromagnetic pulses, not the light, that was effective in entraining the brain. Hence, the LENS unit doesn't use light at all; rather it sends a tiny pulse back down the same electrode from which the EEG signal was gathered. Chuck ' p_ROSHI also has a pulse mode that many trainers prefer. Swingle uses sound, and I thought Les did as well. It's also worth mentioning that both the LENS and the original ROSHI based their pulses on current EEG reading.We have long included binaural beats in many of the TLC designs in the design package, and the current package has built in to the Options protocols " sweeping " . When the peak frequency of the EEG is below a certain point, the binarual beats add to the existing peak frequency and provide a pulse rate just above it, theoretically coaxing it up. When the peak frequency is above a certain point the beat rate is reduced just below the existing frequency, coaxing it down. In short, the beats are set up to sweep the EEG up or down into a band between 6 and14 Hz (that's from memory, but it's close). If the peak frequency is already IN that range, then there are no beats at all. It's possible to use these beats in BioExplorer to drive glasses ( or Uwe can probably explain how that is done, since I'm not a fan of the glasses, though I've used a variety of them over the years).. In other designs, like AlphaUp or Alpha Theta, there are binaural beats set at the appropriate frequenct (10 Hz or 7 Hz in those two cases). Pete-- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 8:46 PM, <uwegerlach@...> wrote: , I´m one of the most experienced AVE specialists in Europe. I was a dealer of Photosonix. The " Innerpulse " is a device I can recommend. If the fixed programs are not suited enough for your goals, you can make your own ones. The DAVID devices certainly are of similar quality. As I know those only have white LED`s in the glasses, that`s a point of critics. Another splendid technique are Audiostrobe devices together with the software " Mindexplorer " . The latter are my favourites today. Uwe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 Hi, This has been a very interesting exchange of information. I thought to come in here because the comment made below, which it says that the BF/NF process is not permanent. I have to say that my own experience says otherwise as I have clients which come once a year after receiving NF 4 years ago (they want a checkup), and the EEG pattern is very much the same. In fact it has to stay permanent because if we are our brain, changing the way the brain works will change our behaviour. Therefore if we change our behaviour the brain just carry on doing the sort of activity related to the type of behaviour.we do after the NF/BF interventions and does not go back. For instances, training someone for ADHD will increase the span/time of attention that person was doing before the interventions. This new activity will make the person to spend more time reading and other cognitive behaviours which in term will make the brain to maintain the level of cognitive activity is now doing and so does not go back to what it did before the NF. Bye for now, ----- Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK) 2000-119 Santarem, Portugal E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@... http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/ ________________________________ De: em nome de duquesne97217 Enviada: sáb 07-04-2012 02:51 Para: Assunto: Re: Alternative Methods? > > And can you say something about the electrode placements, had mentioned ? > > Which one is most likely to be ground C3 or FPz ? > And Bipolar or monopolar ? > > Could they be comparing Bipolar (Oz with FPz) And (T3 with T4) ? > > Or monopolar ? (so many possibilities) > > All looking very interesting. > > This set up sounds like a happiness charm :-) The problem with biofedback is that it's effects are far from permanent; you can eventually get the theta (or alpha) state you might want but you have to keep at it day after day or you lose it. Bummer. ____________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 , I agree with your assessment of permanence. The relief of symptoms and increase in function lasts. In the context of the ongoing discussion relating to alpha and theta states I have to say that permanence is a whole different issue. AT training or alpha, alpha sync training are helpful and long lasting as clinical interventions, They may not be helpful in readily accessing the desired " altered " state. This seems to me to be a use of NFB or BFB to attain a meditative or hypnotic state. Wanting NFB to be a permanent means of doing this seems to me to be akin to learning to meditate, doing so for a short time, then wanting the effects to persist with no further meditation. It is called the practice of meditation for a reason. On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:04 PM, <jorge.alvoeiro@...> wrote: > Hi, > > This has been a very interesting exchange of information. > > I thought to come in here because the comment made below, which it says that the BF/NF process > is not permanent. I have to say that my own experience says otherwise as I have clients which come > once a year after receiving NF 4 years ago (they want a checkup), and the EEG pattern is very much > the same. In fact it has to stay permanent because if we are our brain, changing the way the brain works > will change our behaviour. Therefore if we change our behaviour the brain just carry on doing the sort > of activity related to the type of behaviour.we do after the NF/BF interventions and does not go back. > > For instances, training someone for ADHD will increase the span/time of attention that person was doing > before the interventions. This new activity will make the person to spend more time reading and other > cognitive behaviours which in term will make the brain to maintain the level of cognitive activity is now > doing and so does not go back to what it did before the NF. > > Bye for now, > > ----- > Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK) > 2000-119 Santarem, > Portugal > E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@... > http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/ > > > ________________________________ > > De: em nome de duquesne97217 > Enviada: sáb 07-04-2012 02:51 > Para: > Assunto: Re: Alternative Methods? > > > > > > >> >> And can you say something about the electrode placements, had mentioned ? >> >> Which one is most likely to be ground C3 or FPz ? >> And Bipolar or monopolar ? >> >> Could they be comparing Bipolar (Oz with FPz) And (T3 with T4) ? >> >> Or monopolar ? (so many possibilities) >> >> All looking very interesting. >> >> This set up sounds like a happiness charm :-) > > The problem with biofedback is that it's effects are far from permanent; you can eventually get the theta (or alpha) state you might want but you have to keep at it day after day or you lose it. > Bummer. > ____________ > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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