Re: Burt Bacharach- Angie Dickinson Daughter Comits Su...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/6/2007 11:24:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ravenmagic2003@... writes:

Here's my objection to such a statement. AS does not destroy the brain. A writer should reserve such comments for someone who dies of Mad Cow Disease or Brain Cancer where the brain truly is ravaged. AS does not ravage the brain.

Technically no, it doesn't damage the brain because the brain is wired differently than standard to begin with. It would be more accurate to say that AS, the sensory issues and her OCD made her life difficult and she reached a point where she couldn't stand it anymore.

I do agree though that suicide is not a peaceful way to go. Even with modern methods, there is no easy way to kill someone, especially not for the general public. Most suicides end up failing or are botched, leaving the person grievously injured.

[Guest guest]

,

The world is basically a game we are stuck in. We didn't write the rules or have any say in them, but they are there none the less. We have to live by them just like everyone else. The problem is that we don't get the social rules like most people do. That puts us at a disadvantage with them.

Take today. My cousins have come down to help clean up around the house but they are so flaming annoying. They talk all the time, repeat things 5 or 6 times and don't do things like they are told to. My mother doesn't help either. I spent about 20 minutes cleaning out a cabinet full of storage things she hadn't opened in years and threw out some of the stuff that was really nasty or was missing lids and such. I had the new items in place and the cabinet well organized. She comes in and looks and demands that I put a lot of the old stuff back up there. So, after an argument about it, mostly about me wanting to put the things not likely to be used in a cabinet in the basement, I put a lot of it back in there. Now the orderly cabinet is back to a jumbled mess. Its so frustrating.

I have been having to be polite to these people when they spend the day trying my patience. I'm not sure they mean to be doing it most of the time, but there are other times I know they are trying to get under my skin. Speaking of which, the house has gone quiet so I'd better go look for them.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/6/2007 12:02:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ravenmagic2003@... writes:

I agree. Unfortunately, most people do not know this or have any reason to learn more about this so when statements such as these are made, the fear mongering begins and misperceptions and inaccurate descriptions about persons with AS are propagated. That's what I hate about inaccurate reporting.

This is sloppy reporting, but I think I can see what is going on behind it.

First, few reporters are going to put forth the effort to explain it like I did. Part of the reason is that most people only read about the first paragraph or two of any story. If the reporter but in too much information like that, the reader would be less likely to read even that far.

Second, because this woman was from a famous family, they blamed the disease rather than the woman for her death. By saying AS caused her to kill herself as it had ravaged her mind, that protects the "integrity" of the woman and her family, by not implying that she was worn down, weak or whatever else. It could also have been worded that way to prevent a libel lawsuit. It has happened for less.

I agree with you that a family member reading an article like that would probably get pretty worried about their own kin. What they forget is that lots of people, even those with everything going for them, kill themselves. It is just people with AS.

Granted, sensory issues can be a real pain and drive you mad sometimes, as can people. I don't see that as too different from most people though. Everyone has things that bug them and the wrong noise at the wrong time can set anyone off. By the same token, the wrong action by someone at the wrong time can send another person flying off the handle. So, it isn't just AS, though sensory issues are harder for us to cope with.

This probably was a damaging story as such, but on the positive side, most people won't remember it after a few days. Then again, a barrage of stories like it, like those after a couple of Aspies killed people, and it will sink in.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/6/2007 3:16:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dpallordet@... writes:

The point is, the social rules were designed to provide a framework to make life easier for most people. But because we are different, they actually make life more difficult for us.If Aspies were in the majority, we would have developed our own social rules. I find it interesting to imagine what an Aspie world would be like.

Exactly.

No, my mother is not an Aspie, but she is a pack rat. She loves to get the house so full of junk that we have to have people, like the cousins, come in to clean up every other year or so. When they do, she doesn't like to get rid of a lot of the junk she has accumulated but never used and most likely never will. It mostly comes down to her having no resistance to the shopping channels, so she orders lots of pointless stuff and enough clothes to outfit a battalion.

[Guest guest]

Raven wrote: " Here's my objection to such a statement. AS does not

destroy the brain. A writer should reserve such comments for

someone who dies of Mad Cow Disease or Brain Cancer where the brain

truly is ravaged. AS does not ravage the brain. "

responded: " Technically no, it doesn't damage the brain

because the brain is wired differently than standard to begin with.

It would be more accurate to say that AS, the sensory issues and

her OCD made her life difficult and she reached a point where she

couldn't stand it anymore. "

I agree. Unfortunately, most people do not know this or have any

reason to learn more about this so when statements such as these are

made, the fear mongering begins and misperceptions and inaccurate

descriptions about persons with AS are propagated. That's what I

hate about inaccurate reporting.

Imagine a parent who reads this article and who then has their own

child diagnosed with AS. Instead of taking the time to learn what

AS really is, the immediate and very terrifying thing they will

default to is what they last heard about AS.

In this case, some parents will be unbelievably and needlessly

devastated by the misinformation from the article that states that

AS 'ravages the brain.'

Raven

[Guest guest]

>

> ,

>

> The world is basically a game we are stuck in. We didn't write the

rules or

> have any say in them, but they are there none the less. We have to

live by

> them just like everyone else. The problem is that we don't get the

social rules

> like most people do. That puts us at a disadvantage with them.

The point is, the social rules were designed to provide a framework

to make life easier for most people. But because we are different,

they actually make life more difficult for us.

If Aspies were in the majority, we would have developed our own

social rules. I find it interesting to imagine what an Aspie world

would be like.

Take today. My cousins have come down to help clean up around the

house but

> they are so flaming annoying. They talk all the time, repeat things

5 or 6

> times and don't do things like they are told to. My mother doesn't

help either.

> I spent about 20 minutes cleaning out a cabinet full of storage

things she

> hadn't opened in years and threw out some of the stuff that was

really nasty or

> was missing lids and such. I had the new items in place and the

cabinet well

> organized. She comes in and looks and demands that I put a lot of

the old

> stuff back up there. So, after an argument about it, mostly about

me wanting to

> put the things not likely to be used in a cabinet in the basement,

I put a

> lot of it back in there. Now the orderly cabinet is back to a

jumbled mess.

> Its so frustrating.

Is your mother Aspie too? Being upset by having your things moved is

definitely an Aspie reaction.

>

> I have been having to be polite to these people when they spend the

day

> trying my patience. I'm not sure they mean to be doing it most of

the time, but

> there are other times I know they are trying to get under my skin.

Speaking of

> which, the house has gone quiet so I'd better go look for them.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> ,

>

> The world is basically a game we are stuck in. We didn't write the

rules or

> have any say in them, but they are there none the less. We have to

live by

> them just like everyone else. The problem is that we don't get the

social rules

> like most people do. That puts us at a disadvantage with them.

The point is, the social rules were designed to provide a framework

to make life easier for most people. But because we are different,

they actually make life more difficult for us.

If Aspies were in the majority, we would have developed our own

social rules. I find it interesting to imagine what an Aspie world

would be like.

Take today. My cousins have come down to help clean up around the

house but

> they are so flaming annoying. They talk all the time, repeat things

5 or 6

> times and don't do things like they are told to. My mother doesn't

help either.

> I spent about 20 minutes cleaning out a cabinet full of storage

things she

> hadn't opened in years and threw out some of the stuff that was

really nasty or

> was missing lids and such. I had the new items in place and the

cabinet well

> organized. She comes in and looks and demands that I put a lot of

the old

> stuff back up there. So, after an argument about it, mostly about

me wanting to

> put the things not likely to be used in a cabinet in the basement,

I put a

> lot of it back in there. Now the orderly cabinet is back to a

jumbled mess.

> Its so frustrating.

Is your mother Aspie too? Being upset by having your things moved is

definitely an Aspie reaction.

>

> I have been having to be polite to these people when they spend the

day

> trying my patience. I'm not sure they mean to be doing it most of

the time, but

> there are other times I know they are trying to get under my skin.

Speaking of

> which, the house has gone quiet so I'd better go look for them.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As soon as I first read the word ravages it occurred to me the journalist was confusing alzheimer's with aspergers. (They both begin with an a, have an s-z sound in the middle followed by an m-p closure of the lips, and end with ers.) Then the entire article kind of makes sense from that perspective. (Rule number one- Never underestimate the carelessness of some reporters.) I think some people in tragic situations try to avoid blaming anyone by blaming something like a disease- try to blame the disease for the suicide, and.... indirectly (?) the daughter I suspect? "It was the daughter's choice" to do so. Hmm... actually, I'm starting to get a little angry at the NT seeming compulsion to always blame the AS person for social interaction problems because "why can't they be like everyone else?"

idiocy. Heph ravenmagic2003 <ravenmagic2003@...> wrote: Raven wrote: "Here's my objection to such a statement. AS does not destroy the brain. A writer should reserve such comments for someone who dies of Mad Cow Disease or Brain Cancer where the brain truly is ravaged. AS does not ravage the brain." responded: "Technically no, it doesn't damage the brain because the brain is wired

differently than standard to begin with. It would be more accurate to say that AS, the sensory issues and her OCD made her life difficult and she reached a point where she couldn't stand it anymore."I agree. Unfortunately, most people do not know this or have any reason to learn more about this so when statements such as these are made, the fear mongering begins and misperceptions and inaccurate descriptions about persons with AS are propagated. That's what I hate about inaccurate reporting.Imagine a parent who reads this article and who then has their own child diagnosed with AS. Instead of taking the time to learn what AS really is, the immediate and very terrifying thing they will default to is what they last heard about AS. In this case, some parents will be unbelievably and needlessly devastated by the misinformation from the article that states that AS 'ravages the brain.'Raven

Everyone is raving about the all-new beta.

[Guest guest]

As soon as I first read the word ravages it occurred to me the journalist was confusing alzheimer's with aspergers. (They both begin with an a, have an s-z sound in the middle followed by an m-p closure of the lips, and end with ers.) Then the entire article kind of makes sense from that perspective. (Rule number one- Never underestimate the carelessness of some reporters.) I think some people in tragic situations try to avoid blaming anyone by blaming something like a disease- try to blame the disease for the suicide, and.... indirectly (?) the daughter I suspect? "It was the daughter's choice" to do so. Hmm... actually, I'm starting to get a little angry at the NT seeming compulsion to always blame the AS person for social interaction problems because "why can't they be like everyone else?"

idiocy. Heph ravenmagic2003 <ravenmagic2003@...> wrote: Raven wrote: "Here's my objection to such a statement. AS does not destroy the brain. A writer should reserve such comments for someone who dies of Mad Cow Disease or Brain Cancer where the brain truly is ravaged. AS does not ravage the brain." responded: "Technically no, it doesn't damage the brain because the brain is wired

differently than standard to begin with. It would be more accurate to say that AS, the sensory issues and her OCD made her life difficult and she reached a point where she couldn't stand it anymore."I agree. Unfortunately, most people do not know this or have any reason to learn more about this so when statements such as these are made, the fear mongering begins and misperceptions and inaccurate descriptions about persons with AS are propagated. That's what I hate about inaccurate reporting.Imagine a parent who reads this article and who then has their own child diagnosed with AS. Instead of taking the time to learn what AS really is, the immediate and very terrifying thing they will default to is what they last heard about AS. In this case, some parents will be unbelievably and needlessly devastated by the misinformation from the article that states that AS 'ravages the brain.'Raven

Everyone is raving about the all-new beta.

[Guest guest]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head, Heph. And yes, I

hate the " why can't they just be like us " mentality of so many who

are not AS.

Raven

>

>

> As soon as I first read the word ravages it occurred to me the

journalist

> was confusing alzheimer's with aspergers. (They both begin with

an a, have an s-z sound in the middle followed by an m-p closure of

the lips, and end with ers.) Then the entire article kind of makes

sense from that perspective. (Rule number one- Never underestimate

the carelessness of some reporters.)

>

> I think some people in tragic situations try to avoid blaming

anyone by blaming something like a disease- try to blame the disease

for the suicide, and.... indirectly (?) the daughter I

> suspect? " It was the daughter's choice " to do so. Hmm...

actually, I'm starting to

> get a little angry at the NT seeming compulsion to always blame

the AS person for

> social interaction problems because " why can't they be like

everyone else? " idiocy.

>

> Heph

[Guest guest]

I have decided to relate something that happened today after yarahui

disagreed with me earlier by way of demonstrating how it is that

OTHER people can drive people nuts.

, you have basically done what I was going to do, but I shall

post anyway.

Today I decided to be an observer and not " rock the boat " here with

my parents to see if it is their behavior or my AS that makes me

suicidal. (On any given day I may have suicidal thoughts and I

generally attribute this to other people. Yarahui would have us

believe that it may be me that makes me think this way.)

My parents went to a large brunch today which lasted about three

hours during which they had in essence a seven course meal during

that whole time. They came back " stuffed " at about 4:30 PM having

had, by their own hyperbolic description, more food to eat in one

meal than they normally eat in two days.

I decided to eat about an hour and a half later being generally

pleased that my meal would be alone. For the first time in a long

time, I could cook at mmy leisure and then eat in peace.

" Cooking " this time would not be a big meal however. I am an artist

and am in the middle of a painting. I decided at the last moment to

curtail anything too time consuming to make and just made hot dogs

and fries.

Once I had the hotdogs boiling and the fries frying, both my dad and

mom came into the kitchen and decided to make dinner for themselves.

They said the smell of food had made them hungry.

So here we have two " overstuffed " (by their own description)

Pavlovian dogs salivating at the smell of hot dogs and fries and

wanting to eat dinner one and a half hours after their huge seven

course meal brunch ended.

Now one thing I hate is the spices in bratwurst, and so I will not

allow my hot dogs to be cooked with them. My parents remember this

fact ONLY when I am NOT cooking hot dogs.

My father, seeing that I was cooking hot dogs, decided to make hot

dogs because I was cooking the last two hot dogs for myself. He

wanted to throw his bratwurst in with my hot dogs. I was about to

remind him for probably the thousandth time in my life (I have told

him this EVERY time he wants to put his bratwurst in with my

hotdogs) that I do not like how the spices from the bratwurst

transfer to the hot dogs and if he would wait until I am finished he

can have the boiling water.

Then my mother remided him that the bratwurst were micorwavable.

Thing is, I had my hot dog buns defrosting in the microwave. When I

took them out half defrosted to turn them over, he put in his

bratwurst and heated them up. So I had to wait about five minutes

before I could finish defrosting my hot dog buns.

After I did, I got everything ready and sat down at the counter

where my dad was blocking the TV set and changing channels every two

or three minutes during the only one of two programs I watch on TV

all week. He was replaced by my mother who did the same shortly

therafter.

Both complained halfway through their meals that they were full and

they didn't know what possessed them to cook in the first place.

Noticing my increasing irritability as the meal went on, my mom

asked if anything was wrong and told me to be in better spirits.

This sort of thing and other situations like it are a daily

occurrence. It seems to me that most people who are NOT AS have

little or no self knowledge of their bodies or minds and have no

self-control over how they work. It is just stimulus-response,

stimulus-response and impulse, impulse, impulse.

Even when I was a young child I recognized this and hated people for

it. And to think that THESE were the people who made the rules and

called ME names such as " stupid " " Idiot " " moron " and " cretin. "

These are the sorts of people that can drive someone to suicide

after they experience years of this behavior, subjugation,

prejudice, and ridicule.

Tom

Administrator

,

The world is basically a game we are stuck in. We didn't write the

rules or have any say in them, but they are there none the less. We

have to live by them just like everyone else. The problem is that we

don't get the social rules like most people do. That puts us at a

disadvantage with them.

Take today. My cousins have come down to help clean up around the

house but they are so flaming annoying. They talk all the time,

repeat things 5 or 6 times and don't do things like they are told

to. My mother doesn't help either. I spent about 20 minutes cleaning

out a cabinet full of storage things she hadn't opened in years and

threw out some of the stuff that was really nasty or was missing

lids and such. I had the new items in place and the cabinet well

organized. She comes in and looks and demands that I put a lot of

the old stuff back up there. So, after an argument about it, mostly

about me wanting to put the things not likely to be used in a

cabinet in the basement, I put a lot of it back in there. Now the

orderly cabinet is back to a jumbled mess. Its so frustrating.

I have been having to be polite to these people when they spend the

day trying my patience. I'm not sure they mean to be doing it most

of the time, but there are other times I know they are trying to get

under my skin. Speaking of which, the house has gone quiet so I'd

better go look for them.

[Guest guest]

It is assumed that a person must be in a poor mental state if they

wish to commit suicide.

But think about this carefully.

In recent years it has become acceptable (and legal in some states

here in the US) in cases where people are suffering medically to ask

their doctors to kill them.

Medically assisted suicide was vehemently opposed decades ago.

Dr. Jack Kevorkian was jailed for his role in killing patients in

this fashion.

Now it's legal in some states.

My assertion is that the reason is it is legal is NOT because some

doctors and lawmakers have agreed that it is acceptable in some

cases, but because the general public is sappy and can be easily

swayed by spurious arguments.

Campaigns for medically assisted suicide always appealed to this

sappiness and the euphemisim " medically assisted suicide " in

exchange for the term " mercy killing " was invented to make the whole

process politically correct.

Ergo it is becoming taboo to disagree with the concept of mercy

killings because mercy killing is now becoming a social norm.

" Suicide " (all by itself) however, is still an anti-social term.

Look at the irony:

If one person wants to kill himsel or herself, then that person is

crazy.

But if three flabby-brained medical professionals can be appealed to

emotionally to end a person's life whilst being legally protected,

they will do so, and be judged of sound mind.

Question:

Who are the people who are NOT of sound mind in the above scenario?

The suicidal person, or the three doctors who believe that THEY are

capable of judging who lives or who dies?

It's crzy that people cannot see things the way they really are.

Tom

Administrator

I think some people in tragic situations try to avoid blaming

anyone by blaming something like a disease- try to blame the disease

for the suicide, and.... indirectly (?) the daughter I suspect? " It

was the daughter's choice " to do so. Hmm... actually, I'm starting

to get a little angry at the NT seeming compulsion to always blame

the AS person for social interaction problems because " why can't

they be like everyone else? " idiocy.

Heph

[Guest guest]

>From: VISIGOTH@...

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Re: Burt Bacharach- Angie Dickinson

>Daughter Comits Su...

>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 15:21:34 EST

>

>In a message dated 1/6/2007 3:16:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>dpallordet@... writes:

>

>The point is, the social rules were designed to provide a framework

>to make life easier for most people. But because we are different,

>they actually make life more difficult for us.

>If Aspies were in the majority, we would have developed our own

>social rules. I find it interesting to imagine what an Aspie world

>would be like.

>Exactly.

>

>No, my mother is not an Aspie, but she is a pack rat. She loves to get the

>house so full of junk that we have to have people, like the cousins, come

>in to

> clean up every other year or so. When they do, she doesn't like to get

>rid

>of a lot of the junk she has accumulated but never used and most likely

>never

>will. It mostly comes down to her having no resistance to the shopping

>channels, so she orders lots of pointless stuff and enough clothes to

>outfit a

>battalion.

>

>

I'm not sure whether you're amused or angry while you're writing that.

If I had to live with someone like your mother, one of two things would

happen: either I would be driven mad, or I would end up in depression.

And by the way, my mother is an Aspie and a control freak - at least that's

how I perceive her. I find her so difficult and oppressive, I haven't been

talking to her for the past five years.

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Hotmail is evolving – check out the new Windows Live Mail

http://ideas.live.com

[Guest guest]

On the subject of whether nasty feelings originate from other people or from

oneself, I would like to relate a common experience of mine.

Over the past 4/5 years I have had the misfortune to acquaint myself with

the wrong people. Some of the things they have said and done to me make me

angry, and recollections of these incidents keep cropping up in my mind, I

cannot get rid of them. Their voices resonate in my head most days, and I

spend most of the time feeling very angry about these incidents.

However, I have thought about it and realized that these intense flashbacks

only happen when I haven't slept well. When I have slept well - which is not

very often - I feel quite happy.

I am then able to realize that it is not just what other people have done to

me that makes me angry - lack of quality sleep plays a big part too.

>From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Burt Bacharach- Angie Dickinson Daughter

>Comits Su...

>Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 06:18:26 -0000

>

>I have decided to relate something that happened today after yarahui

>disagreed with me earlier by way of demonstrating how it is that

>OTHER people can drive people nuts.

>

>, you have basically done what I was going to do, but I shall

>post anyway.

>

>Today I decided to be an observer and not " rock the boat " here with

>my parents to see if it is their behavior or my AS that makes me

>suicidal. (On any given day I may have suicidal thoughts and I

>generally attribute this to other people. Yarahui would have us

>believe that it may be me that makes me think this way.)

>

>My parents went to a large brunch today which lasted about three

>hours during which they had in essence a seven course meal during

>that whole time. They came back " stuffed " at about 4:30 PM having

>had, by their own hyperbolic description, more food to eat in one

>meal than they normally eat in two days.

>

>I decided to eat about an hour and a half later being generally

>pleased that my meal would be alone. For the first time in a long

>time, I could cook at mmy leisure and then eat in peace.

>

> " Cooking " this time would not be a big meal however. I am an artist

>and am in the middle of a painting. I decided at the last moment to

>curtail anything too time consuming to make and just made hot dogs

>and fries.

>

>Once I had the hotdogs boiling and the fries frying, both my dad and

>mom came into the kitchen and decided to make dinner for themselves.

>They said the smell of food had made them hungry.

>

>So here we have two " overstuffed " (by their own description)

>Pavlovian dogs salivating at the smell of hot dogs and fries and

>wanting to eat dinner one and a half hours after their huge seven

>course meal brunch ended.

>

>Now one thing I hate is the spices in bratwurst, and so I will not

>allow my hot dogs to be cooked with them. My parents remember this

>fact ONLY when I am NOT cooking hot dogs.

>

>My father, seeing that I was cooking hot dogs, decided to make hot

>dogs because I was cooking the last two hot dogs for myself. He

>wanted to throw his bratwurst in with my hot dogs. I was about to

>remind him for probably the thousandth time in my life (I have told

>him this EVERY time he wants to put his bratwurst in with my

>hotdogs) that I do not like how the spices from the bratwurst

>transfer to the hot dogs and if he would wait until I am finished he

>can have the boiling water.

>

>Then my mother remided him that the bratwurst were micorwavable.

>

>Thing is, I had my hot dog buns defrosting in the microwave. When I

>took them out half defrosted to turn them over, he put in his

>bratwurst and heated them up. So I had to wait about five minutes

>before I could finish defrosting my hot dog buns.

>

>After I did, I got everything ready and sat down at the counter

>where my dad was blocking the TV set and changing channels every two

>or three minutes during the only one of two programs I watch on TV

>all week. He was replaced by my mother who did the same shortly

>therafter.

>

>Both complained halfway through their meals that they were full and

>they didn't know what possessed them to cook in the first place.

>

>Noticing my increasing irritability as the meal went on, my mom

>asked if anything was wrong and told me to be in better spirits.

>

>This sort of thing and other situations like it are a daily

>occurrence. It seems to me that most people who are NOT AS have

>little or no self knowledge of their bodies or minds and have no

>self-control over how they work. It is just stimulus-response,

>stimulus-response and impulse, impulse, impulse.

>

>Even when I was a young child I recognized this and hated people for

>it. And to think that THESE were the people who made the rules and

>called ME names such as " stupid " " Idiot " " moron " and " cretin. "

>

>These are the sorts of people that can drive someone to suicide

>after they experience years of this behavior, subjugation,

>prejudice, and ridicule.

>

>Tom

>Administrator

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>,

>

>The world is basically a game we are stuck in. We didn't write the

>rules or have any say in them, but they are there none the less. We

>have to live by them just like everyone else. The problem is that we

>don't get the social rules like most people do. That puts us at a

>disadvantage with them.

>

>Take today. My cousins have come down to help clean up around the

>house but they are so flaming annoying. They talk all the time,

>repeat things 5 or 6 times and don't do things like they are told

>to. My mother doesn't help either. I spent about 20 minutes cleaning

>out a cabinet full of storage things she hadn't opened in years and

>threw out some of the stuff that was really nasty or was missing

>lids and such. I had the new items in place and the cabinet well

>organized. She comes in and looks and demands that I put a lot of

>the old stuff back up there. So, after an argument about it, mostly

>about me wanting to put the things not likely to be used in a

>cabinet in the basement, I put a lot of it back in there. Now the

>orderly cabinet is back to a jumbled mess. Its so frustrating.

>

>I have been having to be polite to these people when they spend the

>day trying my patience. I'm not sure they mean to be doing it most

>of the time, but there are other times I know they are trying to get

>under my skin. Speaking of which, the house has gone quiet so I'd

>better go look for them.

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

One thing I have learnt recently is that most people will actively start to

bicker because they enjoy it.

I don't. I like peace and quiet, and seeking the truth.

>From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Burt Bacharach- Angie Dickinson Daughter

>Comits Su...

>Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 06:18:26 -0000

>

>I have decided to relate something that happened today after yarahui

>disagreed with me earlier by way of demonstrating how it is that

>OTHER people can drive people nuts.

>

>, you have basically done what I was going to do, but I shall

>post anyway.

>

>Today I decided to be an observer and not " rock the boat " here with

>my parents to see if it is their behavior or my AS that makes me

>suicidal. (On any given day I may have suicidal thoughts and I

>generally attribute this to other people. Yarahui would have us

>believe that it may be me that makes me think this way.)

>

>My parents went to a large brunch today which lasted about three

>hours during which they had in essence a seven course meal during

>that whole time. They came back " stuffed " at about 4:30 PM having

>had, by their own hyperbolic description, more food to eat in one

>meal than they normally eat in two days.

>

>I decided to eat about an hour and a half later being generally

>pleased that my meal would be alone. For the first time in a long

>time, I could cook at mmy leisure and then eat in peace.

>

> " Cooking " this time would not be a big meal however. I am an artist

>and am in the middle of a painting. I decided at the last moment to

>curtail anything too time consuming to make and just made hot dogs

>and fries.

>

>Once I had the hotdogs boiling and the fries frying, both my dad and

>mom came into the kitchen and decided to make dinner for themselves.

>They said the smell of food had made them hungry.

>

>So here we have two " overstuffed " (by their own description)

>Pavlovian dogs salivating at the smell of hot dogs and fries and

>wanting to eat dinner one and a half hours after their huge seven

>course meal brunch ended.

>

>Now one thing I hate is the spices in bratwurst, and so I will not

>allow my hot dogs to be cooked with them. My parents remember this

>fact ONLY when I am NOT cooking hot dogs.

>

>My father, seeing that I was cooking hot dogs, decided to make hot

>dogs because I was cooking the last two hot dogs for myself. He

>wanted to throw his bratwurst in with my hot dogs. I was about to

>remind him for probably the thousandth time in my life (I have told

>him this EVERY time he wants to put his bratwurst in with my

>hotdogs) that I do not like how the spices from the bratwurst

>transfer to the hot dogs and if he would wait until I am finished he

>can have the boiling water.

>

>Then my mother remided him that the bratwurst were micorwavable.

>

>Thing is, I had my hot dog buns defrosting in the microwave. When I

>took them out half defrosted to turn them over, he put in his

>bratwurst and heated them up. So I had to wait about five minutes

>before I could finish defrosting my hot dog buns.

>

>After I did, I got everything ready and sat down at the counter

>where my dad was blocking the TV set and changing channels every two

>or three minutes during the only one of two programs I watch on TV

>all week. He was replaced by my mother who did the same shortly

>therafter.

>

>Both complained halfway through their meals that they were full and

>they didn't know what possessed them to cook in the first place.

>

>Noticing my increasing irritability as the meal went on, my mom

>asked if anything was wrong and told me to be in better spirits.

>

>This sort of thing and other situations like it are a daily

>occurrence. It seems to me that most people who are NOT AS have

>little or no self knowledge of their bodies or minds and have no

>self-control over how they work. It is just stimulus-response,

>stimulus-response and impulse, impulse, impulse.

>

>Even when I was a young child I recognized this and hated people for

>it. And to think that THESE were the people who made the rules and

>called ME names such as " stupid " " Idiot " " moron " and " cretin. "

>

>These are the sorts of people that can drive someone to suicide

>after they experience years of this behavior, subjugation,

>prejudice, and ridicule.

>

>Tom

>Administrator

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>,

>

>The world is basically a game we are stuck in. We didn't write the

>rules or have any say in them, but they are there none the less. We

>have to live by them just like everyone else. The problem is that we

>don't get the social rules like most people do. That puts us at a

>disadvantage with them.

>

>Take today. My cousins have come down to help clean up around the

>house but they are so flaming annoying. They talk all the time,

>repeat things 5 or 6 times and don't do things like they are told

>to. My mother doesn't help either. I spent about 20 minutes cleaning

>out a cabinet full of storage things she hadn't opened in years and

>threw out some of the stuff that was really nasty or was missing

>lids and such. I had the new items in place and the cabinet well

>organized. She comes in and looks and demands that I put a lot of

>the old stuff back up there. So, after an argument about it, mostly

>about me wanting to put the things not likely to be used in a

>cabinet in the basement, I put a lot of it back in there. Now the

>orderly cabinet is back to a jumbled mess. Its so frustrating.

>

>I have been having to be polite to these people when they spend the

>day trying my patience. I'm not sure they mean to be doing it most

>of the time, but there are other times I know they are trying to get

>under my skin. Speaking of which, the house has gone quiet so I'd

>better go look for them.

>

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

wrote: " On the subject of whether nasty feelings originate

from other people or from oneself, I would like to relate a common

experience of mine. Over the past 4/5 years I have had the misfortune

to acquaint myself with the wrong people. Some of the things they have

said and done to me make me angry, and recollections of these

incidents keep cropping up in my mind, I cannot get rid of them. Their

voices resonate in my head most days, and I spend most of the time

feeling very angry about these incidents. However, I have thought

about it and realized that these intense flashbacks only happen when I

haven't slept well. When I have slept well - which is not very often -

I feel quite happy. I am then able to realize that it is not just

what other people have done to me that makes me angry - lack of

quality sleep plays a big part too. "

I understand what you are saying however I would like to comment on

your post.

First off, as nearly everyone here knows, I believe in the Law of

Neutrality ... that being that everything that happens in life is

neither positive nor negative and the emotion we attach to the event

determines if it is viewed as positive or negative.

That being said, there are certain actions that are, despite the Law

of Neutrality, evil or intended to cause negative reactions. In other

words, cutting a perfectly healthy tree down just because is neither

positive nor negative. The impact of cutting down a perfectly healthy

tree, however, could be either positive or negative even with no

emotion attached to the event. That the cut tree could be used for

lumber or paper is a moot point if the initial act of cutting down

this tree negatively impacts the environment.

This being said, perhaps now you can see how the actions of others --

while neither positive nor negative -- can impact negatively due

specifically and expressly to these very actions.

Killing Saddam Hussein was an action that took place recently. Had he

been tortured to death, one could certainly not claim that it was

his 'lack of sleep' that made the ordeal worse and more 'personal'

than if he had had a good night's sleep. The example is extreme but

it was meant to make you think, .

In this world, there are those who enjoy causing as much trouble for

specific others as they possibly can and then to blame their victims

for the victims' reactions.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Causal direction of aggravation in families... Over a decade ago when I first learned about aspergers I was immediately struck on how accurately it fit my mom. And as it happens she drives everybody crazy! (Perhaps it would be informative to the list to describe just how, in a few hundred pages!... but I think it would be extremely depressing for me.) I saw my brothers and sister as just being milder forms of the same thing. I always figured I was ADHD, and much more like Dad, -not at all like the others. Then less than a year ago I was, much to my consternation, doctor-diagnosed with aspergers, and not ADHD. (Though I think the psychiatrist now appreciates how very much ADHD I am- though within the subtype of AS that is high in ADHD traits.) I've been doing a lot of

thinking about my past and now realize I'm probably by far the most ASD in the family! The point this is leading up to is, we should be careful when looking at causal directions of being driven crazy when we use examples involving family members. Because of the involvement of many genes in ASD, and the high heritability measurements for autism among monozygotic twin studies, a lot of the research literature I been perusing lately is using the phrase "broader phenotype" in discussing ASDs. Namely, for example, brothers of autistic kids on average score high in terms eye-gaze avoidance. Etc. Summary- if you have an ASD person in the family, then the rest are ~possibly~ not "fully" neurotypical. I think there is an interaction between certain ASD traits and developing into a nice, or considerate person. And

similarly for NTs. And there is almost certainly differences in how that works for the two groups. But blanket descriptions of all ASDs as being one way, or NTs for that matter, are not always helpful? Although we're of course concerned about the nature of ASD and therefore our own "essential" natures... I wonder if sometimes it might be more useful to focus on actions instead of essences when it comes to dealing with troublesome behavioral interactions. Hmm... one definition of "constructive criticism" I heard awhile back that I really like... Negative criticism typically just focuses on the nature of a person. Constructive criticism focuses on the ~specific~ behavior and includes suggestions (politely worded suggestions?...achievable and manageable suggestions?...) and what might be done differently in the future. And I wonder- How much of the difficulty of being "functional" involves having been raised in a family of possibly less than functional others? Does that accentuate the tendency to be diagnosed as ASD any? I think there are a lot of complex family dynamics issues beyond the scope of my imagination going on here. ...psychological projection...blame-placing... and so on. I see my mother as having had a big load of problems from her upbringing, and they seriously impacted her own functioning as a parent. Well, as I'm starting to ramble I'll just sign off. (I wonder if an adoption study comparing kids adopted out of families high in ASD traits with kids adopted out of families low in such traits would show less problems in terms of being able to be what the clinicians call "functional" in the world.) Heph Pallordet

<dpallordet@...> wrote: One thing I have learnt recently is that most people will actively start to bicker because they enjoy it.I don't. I like peace and quiet, and seeking the truth.>From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >>Reply- > >Subject: Re: Burt Bacharach- Angie Dickinson Daughter >Comits Su...>Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 06:18:26 -0000>>I have decided to relate something that happened today after yarahui>disagreed with me earlier by way of demonstrating how it is that>OTHER people can drive people nuts.>>, you have basically done what I was going to do, but I shall>post anyway.>>Today I decided to be an observer and not "rock the boat" here with>my parents to see if it is their behavior or my AS that makes me>suicidal. (On any given day I may have suicidal thoughts and I>generally attribute this to other people. Yarahui would have us>believe that it may be me that makes me think this way.)>>My parents went to a large brunch today which lasted about

three>hours during which they had in essence a seven course meal during>that whole time. They came back "stuffed" at about 4:30 PM having>had, by their own hyperbolic description, more food to eat in one>meal than they normally eat in two days.>>I decided to eat about an hour and a half later being generally>pleased that my meal would be alone. For the first time in a long>time, I could cook at mmy leisure and then eat in peace.>>"Cooking" this time would not be a big meal however. I am an artist>and am in the middle of a painting. I decided at the last moment to>curtail anything too time consuming to make and just made hot dogs>and fries.>>Once I had the hotdogs boiling and the fries frying, both my dad and>mom came into the kitchen and decided to make dinner for themselves.>They said the smell of food had made them hungry.>>So here we have

two "overstuffed" (by their own description)>Pavlovian dogs salivating at the smell of hot dogs and fries and>wanting to eat dinner one and a half hours after their huge seven>course meal brunch ended.>>Now one thing I hate is the spices in bratwurst, and so I will not>allow my hot dogs to be cooked with them. My parents remember this>fact ONLY when I am NOT cooking hot dogs.>>My father, seeing that I was cooking hot dogs, decided to make hot>dogs because I was cooking the last two hot dogs for myself. He>wanted to throw his bratwurst in with my hot dogs. I was about to>remind him for probably the thousandth time in my life (I have told>him this EVERY time he wants to put his bratwurst in with my>hotdogs) that I do not like how the spices from the bratwurst>transfer to the hot dogs and if he would wait until I am finished he>can have the boiling

water.>>Then my mother remided him that the bratwurst were micorwavable.>>Thing is, I had my hot dog buns defrosting in the microwave. When I>took them out half defrosted to turn them over, he put in his>bratwurst and heated them up. So I had to wait about five minutes>before I could finish defrosting my hot dog buns.>>After I did, I got everything ready and sat down at the counter>where my dad was blocking the TV set and changing channels every two>or three minutes during the only one of two programs I watch on TV>all week. He was replaced by my mother who did the same shortly>therafter.>>Both complained halfway through their meals that they were full and>they didn't know what possessed them to cook in the first place.>>Noticing my increasing irritability as the meal went on, my mom>asked if anything was wrong and told me to be in better

spirits.>>This sort of thing and other situations like it are a daily>occurrence. It seems to me that most people who are NOT AS have>little or no self knowledge of their bodies or minds and have no>self-control over how they work. It is just stimulus-response,>stimulus-response and impulse, impulse, impulse.>>Even when I was a young child I recognized this and hated people for>it. And to think that THESE were the people who made the rules and>called ME names such as "stupid" "Idiot" "moron" and "cretin.">>These are the sorts of people that can drive someone to suicide>after they experience years of this behavior, subjugation,>prejudice, and ridicule.>>Tom>Administrator>>>>>>>>>>>>>,>>The world is basically a game we are stuck in. We didn't write the>rules or have any say in them, but they are there none the less. We>have to live by them just like everyone else. The problem is that we>don't get the social rules like most people do. That puts us at a>disadvantage with them.>>Take today. My cousins have come down to help clean up around the>house but they are so flaming annoying. They talk all the time,>repeat things 5 or 6 times and don't do things like they are told>to. My mother doesn't help either. I spent about 20 minutes cleaning>out a cabinet full of storage things she hadn't opened in years and>threw out some of the stuff that was really nasty or was missing>lids and such. I had the new items in place and the

cabinet well>organized. She comes in and looks and demands that I put a lot of>the old stuff back up there. So, after an argument about it, mostly>about me wanting to put the things not likely to be used in a>cabinet in the basement, I put a lot of it back in there. Now the>orderly cabinet is back to a jumbled mess. Its so frustrating.>>I have been having to be polite to these people when they spend the>day trying my patience. I'm not sure they mean to be doing it most>of the time, but there are other times I know they are trying to get>under my skin. Speaking of which, the house has gone quiet so I'd>better go look for them.>>>>>__________________________________________________________Find Singles In Your Area This Christmas With Match.com!

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Answers.

[Guest guest]

It is not always about you Tom :-)

You stated in your post that being an Asperger is not a burden. I

just wanted to say that this might feel like no burden to you, but

there might be other Aspergers than you that feel it can be a burden.

That was all.

If I want to say something different from that, I would have said

something different. Maybe I understand you wrong, but I think you

are putting words in my mouth. Especially when you write : " Yarahui

would have us believe that it may be me that makes me think this

way. " If you write that, you are putting words in my mouth. 'Would

have us believe' ? Please, I am not doing any harm, am I?

> Today I decided to be an observer and not " rock the boat " here with

> my parents to see if it is their behavior or my AS that makes me

> suicidal. (On any given day I may have suicidal thoughts and I

> generally attribute this to other people. Yarahui would have us

> believe that it may be me that makes me think this way.)

>

[Guest guest]

For some reason I think memory tends to work better first thing in

the morning. Sometimes when I am having trouble remembering a

person's name, or if there is something " on the tip of my tongue "

that I cannot remember, I write it down before I go to bed and look

at the piece of paper the next morning. I almost always remember

whatever I could not remember the previous day first thing, no

matter how bleary I am.

The downside of this is that bad memories can come to the forefront

with equal ease. This holds true whether I have slept or not.

Tom

Administrator

" However, I have thought about it and realized that these intense

flashbacks only happen when I haven't slept well. When I have slept

well - which is not very often - I feel quite happy.

" I am then able to realize that it is not just what other people

have done to me that makes me angry - lack of quality sleep plays a

big part too. "

[Guest guest]

" If anything, the US should have walked away from Iraq and the

sanctions and given the job of making Saddam behave to the UN and his

under the table allies directly. if he misbehaved he would be their

problem. In addition, he would still be serving as a check against

Iran. Granted, it would be another whole kettle of rotten fish to deal

with, but just like the old Soviet Union: the Devil you know is better

than the Devil you don't. "

The biggest mistake Bush and Blair made was not admitting to the

public why it is we really went in there: To get rid of a man who was

committing slow genocide against the Kurds and Shias.

Saddaam did have WMD and I am still convinced they are hidden. I am

also convinced there are members of the Iraqui government who knows

where they are. So they used the WMD ploy as a cvalid reason to go to

war.

But I really think they just wanted Saddam out on moral principles,

yet such principles are not something the UN can agree to as a reason

for going to war.

On the one hand, it would be a lesson to the world if we did

absolutely nothing and let the UN handle it.

On the other hand, the UN would have done nothing as Saddam killed off

more Kurds and Shias.

Granted, many US troops have been killed, and the violence going on in

Iraq is killing thousands of civilians. Perhaps now more people are

getting killed than when Saddam was in power. Yet morally, we did the

right thing, and we cannot bear the responsibility for what the

immoral people in Iraq's population choose to do now that we have done

our job.

I have been giving this a lot of thought lately and actually learning

toward a democratic standpoint on this. Perhaps we should pull out of

Iraq.

What would happen if we did would be a civil war, a huge spike in oil

prices, Iran and Syria squabbling over the remains of Iraq, Genocide,

and a whole lot of other chaos that would affect the region and the

world.

But all those things would be the result of immoral people doing

immoral things. Our hands would be free because we tried to do what

was right. It's not our fault that no one else -including Iraq's own

population (which begged for us to overthrow Saddam at the end of the

first Gulf War)- decided to get on board with us.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

wrote: " I have to disagree with you there. My family has been

in the timber business for close to 100 years and logging, when done

properly, does not harm the environment ... <snip> ... "

You read too quickly and missed what I wrote, . I

wrote: " That the cut tree could be used for lumber or paper is a moot

point *IF* the initial act of cutting down this tree negatively

impacts the environment.

The key word is " IF " and since your family has been logging in a way

that is not harmful to the environment, the negative impact of which I

spoke is not there.

And thank you for adding so much information on logging, the

environment and other factors. It was interesting and informative.

Raven

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/8/2007 10:22:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mnmimi@... writes:

The NATURE of the world we cause disruption. We concentrate on a myrid of micro issues without looking at the "BIG" picture. The Earth is a whole unit and we have to look at it as that entity and follow the path of an action to it's consequence.

In terms of the big picture, Alabama is still very heavily forested and that proportion is larger than it was 50 years ago. This trend is the same in several other neighboring states. Logging in the US is very regulated and there are many rules to be followed.

The problem areas are places like Brazil, Chile and a number of other countries where there is no real regulation and forests are lost in vast acreages. Rainforests don't grow back like Eastern Woodland in the US. Turing a rainforest into farmland for a decade or two might mean a century or more to regrow. Eastern Forests, if left completely alone, will regrow in about 20 to 30 years, with small growth starting within weeks. Of course, we don't leave them barren like that anyway. They get replanted shortly after the final cutting.

Basically though we follow scientific management that has been tested and refined over decades of work. The forests are very healthy and productive. It is their productivity that helps keep them healthy. Because they are a resource, people take care of them. One sign of this is that we have very few forest fires and most of them are quite small. That is compared to the vast fires on National Park lands, in Florida and California where there are onerous regulations, such as those preventing the construction of fire breaks or allowing people to clear up around their houses.

We are well aware of the big picture too. That is why we don't complain too much about the regulations we have, though they are increasing in number to the point of being problematic. We also face problems from politicians seeking to increase tax revenues. Several years ago the Alabama Governor sought to increase tax revenue by having land rezoned for the highest tax revenue it could generate. That means many farms and woodland would have been designated commercial or more likely residential (the highest tax base). Along with land use restrictions, it would have result in many farms and woodlands being sold to developers and lost to more development.

The deer population is probably affected somewhat by farming. However, the numbers are high even in places where there is little farming or ranching. Deer are just very prolific breeders with no real natural enemies in most places aside from humans. That will probably be a continuing problem for a while yet.

[Guest guest]

You have hit upon a topic close to my heart. As any reader of the

bible knows we are (humans) are the administrators of the earth. We

are the tenders of this world and without concideration to the cycle of

things. The NATURE of the world we cause disruption. We concentrate

on a myrid of micro issues without looking at the " BIG " picture. The

Earth is a whole unit and we have to look at it as that entity and

follow the path of an action to it's consequence. There can be no

single fingure pointing because everything depends on everything else.

An ever moving complex web of actions and reactions. management

involves looking at how each action effects the nest. And so like so

much of my beloved sci-fi, the smallest event may have an enormous

outcome elsewhere. In that the effect of the deer population might

actually be caused by the increase of grazing animal use in the world.

Because pasture attracts deer and they feed and have more offspring, On

and on. I am not asserting this is the case I am just saying the real

problem may stem from something previously thought unrelated. There

are several books with this theme. But the Bible states that we are

the keepers of the Earth. We have to return to Eden by recreating it

ourselves in the complementarty exsistance of all things

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't like " intruders " in the house in the first place, and I

don't

> particularly like these people, so it was rather tiring. Worst horror

was when they

> used my bathroom. I hate people using my bathroom. No details, but

suffice

> it to say, I was NOT pleased after they left.

>

>

>

These are the events that cause people to say I have a lot of hang-

ups. I HATE to be invaded, What I hate is the lack of consideration.

I do not touch other people things unless I am asked. I cook what by

BF likes to eat. I prefer to do the cleaning myself so that I know it

is the level of work that I can live with. If someone were willing to

have a standard then I would not be so rigid. However like

states: no details (I don't want to swim in other peoples microbial

leavings) well just wanted to say you are not alone in your desire to

keep your environment untainted

[Guest guest]

I think that the diagnostic criteria is one most have a set number of

traits (whatever) and that they are to the extent that they cause one

some difficulty, have a marked impairment on one's life - or

something like that.

>

> I keep hearing a lot of people saying that other people have AS

> traits. With so many people having AS traits, I wonder where

> professional psychologists draw the line at someone being

> definitively AS.

>

> If it is true that so many people have AS traits, then perhaps the

> specific designation should be done away with since even

> psychologists admit that not all people with AS have all the

traits,

> and some forms of AS are milder than others anyway.

>

> Thus at what point do AS traits cross the threshhold into an AS

> diagnosis and at one point does having some AS traits make someone

> not AS but just someone with AS trraits?

>

> Tom

> Administrator