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Shane~It has been proven that BST designs are EXACTLY some of the old TLC designs from years back. If you benefited from the BST training like you say then the same intensity with TLC training will do even more for you since the assessment one would work with would be more informative, not just the one page (heads page) Lee lifted from Pete's TLC assessment after he took Pete's training. ~From: "Shane " <tracyshane@...> , "mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>Cc: tracyshane@...Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:44:26 PMSubject: ...scoop on Les Fehmi. Good information, .

(mercado 83),That's a good comment you made below. I know that Van Deusen has reservations about Brain State Training because Les Gerdes studied under . told me over the phone that Gerdes' methods are identical to TLC's (please correct me if I'm wrong, )--but I know from personal experience that BST is NOT identical to TLC training because, as you comment in your posting, , BST is absorbed passively--it does not take active mental concentration, as does traditional NF. It is also much quicker than NF.And to ---you yourself, , said to me, "...maybe if you want to get there without doing any work for

it..." or words to that effect. Well, of course I want to 'get there' the easiest possible way, , and of course I want to get there as quickly as possible! So does everybody. People have other things to devote their 'work' time to--like 'work,' for instance. That doesn't mean people are lazy, , it just means that they have other importance things going on and they want to get on with their lives.MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH BST:I've personally gone through BST--8 days, or 16 sessions, of it--in January 2011. To be frank, I just plain benefited from BST beyond my wildest expectations. I had given up all hope of a transformation in my life, but BST provided me with just that--a transformation. I now have a sense of inner calm and self-confidence that I've never known before, much more than I ever

achieved with meditation techniques. And the results I achieved from BST have been permanent because once one achieves a higher level of consciousness, then all decisions and actions are made from this level and one deals with life with more maturity. Even my husband has noticed and has even made the unsolicited comment that I seem 'different' now--better--more in charge of my life--and, believe me, my husband has NEVER said anything like that to me before in the 30+ years we've known each other! And when I say 'never,' I don't mean 'hardly ever'--I mean 'NEVER.' My husband's surprise comment reflects what Gerdes says regarding many who undergo BST--"...they just look so much more present." [the word 'present' in italics].I urge all NF practitioners to research BST further. I have no reason to say this to you, except that the results of BST are often so dramatic, as they

were in my case. Perhaps this is because Les Gerdes used the brain wave frequencies of two Buddhist monks to set up his first model, rather than the median of brain wave samples taken throughout the world (NF).MY CONVERSATION WITH HERSHEL TOOMIM:I don't know if one can reach a higher level of consciousness through traditional NF techniques or not, but can one reach it through NF in just three days? I spoke with Hershel Toomim about my experience with BST for over an hour one day. Hershel was a true professional, and a good listener--he respected what I told him about my experience with BST, and he accepted my words on face value--after all, I had no reason to lie to him about my experience, and he recognized that. Hershel asked me how long it took me to achieve the profound

change I experienced with BST, and I told him '3 days.' He said, "Three days!" Hershel was clearly impressed, and he told me he was going to explore BST further. He told me that he was positive that he could duplicate the results of BST. To my sorrow, Hershel, who I believe was 94 years old when I spoke to him, passed away shortly after our conversation. I hope other NF practitioners will pick up Hershel's torch and find out how BST works and duplicate it so that it can become more available to the public. I know that Gerdes didn't seek to have BST copyrighted (or patented? I forget which) because it would be too easy for others to duplicate once his secret was out. A BST practitioner told me that Gerdes felt that BST had a '5 year window' before others figured it out. Hershel himself was so positive that he could easily figure it out himself, but

unfortunately he didn't live long enough to pursue it--so, one of you out there, please pick up Hershel's torch. BST works better than traditional NF--I'm sure of it. Read about it online; take the 5-day/10-session BST training yourself; watch the youtube videos of the severely involved child receiving BST in AZ; read the testimonials of soldiers suffering from PTSD.RE: LES GERDES:I have no allegiance to Les Gerdes himself--in fact, I fear his apparently-harsh business practices might 'do BST in'-- but I do know that his Brain State Training worked extremely well for me and for others, and that BST doesn't require dozens or hundreds of sessions to achieve desired results as does NF. And children can play with their toys if they want to, while undergoing BST, rather than be coerced into focusing on the computer screen

In his book "Limitless You," Gerdes explains that he achieved better results from NF for his PTSD than he did with other treatments, such as drugs or psychotherapy (he was attacked and beaten by a gang of kids in San Francisco); but, Gerdes said, NF just didn't work fast enough, and he wanted to get on with his life. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH 'BEING A GOOD MARKETER.' Van Deusen comments that Les Gerdes is a good "marketer," and I suppose Pete is right about that--but Gerdes' marketing skills DO NOT in any way diminish the genuine value of BST as a treatment. Marketing was Gerdes's forte to begin with, and he was good at it--he was a major force behind making Amazon.com the major force that it is today. But that's not an argument against the true value of BST.RE:

LENS:I intend to take further sessions of BST--but I, too, wonder whether I might benefit as much or more from LENS. From what I've been told, LENS tends to be of greatest benefit to those who have undergone recent severe trauma, such as a stroke. I also read somewhere--I think in the book "A Symphony in the Brain" by Jim Robbins--that LENS has even benefited dogs that had been emotionally traumatized as a result of Hurricane Katrina and were left abandoned. These traumatized dogs, who had started snapping at people in their fear, became calm enough to be adoptable again.In other words, with LENS, as with BST, one does not have to be actively engaged in the process in order to benefit from it. You can even benefit from BST if you fall asleep. I was told during my BST sessions to simply to imagine myself relaxing in

a pleasant surrounding. I chose to picture myself on a blanket on a beach in Galveston TX, where I lived for 2 years. There were a couple of other visualization things I was asked to follow for BST, but that was it. I didn't have to actively concentrate on anything, like make a submarine going up and down, or make an airplane fly, on the computer screen in front of me.STUDY BEING PERFORMED ON BST:I've considered trying traditional NF--which is why I'm on this site, to learn more about it--but, based on what I've read to date on this site, plus on Les Gerdes' book "Limitless You," plus on testimonials for BST that I've read, it sounds like BST is much faster than traditional NF and that it's the most cost-effective way to go.Another point worth mentioning: The U. of Va. is

currently conducting a study on BST, with the support and cooperation of the US Military, on 350 soldiers suffering from PTSD. The reason that the military chose to pursue this study is that they are desperate to find some effective means to deal with PTSD of their returning soldiers, and testimonials of soldiers with PTSD who have undergone BST have been impressive. IMPT FOR NEUROFEEDBACK PRACTITIONERS TO KNOW: SOLDIERS SUFFERING FROM PTSD CAN RECEIVE BST FOR FREE:Which brings to mind something else that NF practitioners need to know: MOST, IF NOT ALL, BRAIN STATE TRAINING CENTERS THROUGHOUT THE US, OFFER SOLDIERS WHO SERVED IN A WAR ZONE and who are now experiencing PTSD AS A RESULT, BST TREATMENT WITHOUT CHARGE. So if you know of any soldiers suffering from PTSD, whether it be from Viet Nam or Iraq or

Afghanistan, please call Brain State Technology's AZ office for more details.Being from a military family myself, I care a lot about our soldiers--a whole lot. If you know ANY soldier suffering from PTSD as a result of serving in a war zone, PLEASE pass this information on to the soldier or his family. Professional responsibility calls for it.I have great respect for all of you NF practitioners--you deserve more attention and respect than the medical community gives you. Thank you for all you've done to help people in need.Yours,Shane New Hope PAFrom: mercado_83 <mercado_83@...> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 2:19 PMSubject: Re: What's the scoop on Les Fehmi

I skimmed through the BST file Pete uploaded. From what I can tell, the BST software provides feedback in the form of sounds that reflect some aspects of the real-time activity of the brain, and the brain is hypothesized to automatically correct itself while listening to the sounds, and the user sits passively without actively trying to change anything (p. 9-11). To me, that sounds closer to the LENS approach than the TLC approach (the TLC approach being closer to "traditional" methods of neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for BST...well, I've already written that story several times, and I'm

> tired of it. Of course it "works" for some people, and doesn't for others.

> All NF does. But BST, and certainly Mr. Gerdes, are much more about

> marketing than about brain training. I have recently seen that they are now

> calling what they do (drum-roll)

> "High-resolution, Relational, Resonance-Based Electroencephalic Mirroring"

> or HIRREM (which name, by the way, is TRADEMARKED!! If you put salt in a

> fancy container and call it low-cal, all-natural, gluten-free NaCl

> flavoring, you'll probably be able to sell it for double the price to at

> least some of the market. And no matter what you call it, it still adds a

> salty taste to your food, so many people will like it--same as regular salt

> in a simple package. That's marketing. And if you can get a few

> "celebrities" to swear that they won't eat a bite without it, well, you'll

> sell even more.

>

> Anyone wants to read the 18-page "article" setting this forth, I've uploaded

> it to in the Files area

> /files/

> Anyone who is particularly interested might wish to glance through pp13-17,

> where they explain the difference between HIRREM (sorry, I can't find the TM

> key on my keyboard) and "regular" neurofeedback.

>

> Let the buyer beware, regardless of what he/she is buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305 433 3160

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

-- Watch for all that beauty reflecting from you and sing a love song to your existence. Rumi ♥

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Thank you, ,I'll have to ask Pete about that. Pete didn't mention that to me on the phone when I spoke to him a few months ago. In fact, Pete said he felt I'd be better off staying with BST (not just for myself, but for my 3 adult children).ShaneFrom: Duncan <karenduncan@...> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:57 PMSubject: Re: ...scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane~It has been proven that BST designs are EXACTLY some of the old TLC designs from years back. If you benefited from the BST training like you say then the same intensity with TLC training will do even more for you since the assessment one would work with would be more informative, not just the one page (heads page) Lee lifted from Pete's TLC assessment after he took Pete's training. ~From: "Shane " <tracyshane@...> , "mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>Cc: tracyshane@...Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:44:26 PMSubject: ...scoop on Les Fehmi. Good information, .

(mercado 83),That's a good comment you made below. I know that Van Deusen has reservations about Brain State Training because Les Gerdes studied under . told me over the phone that Gerdes' methods are identical to TLC's (please correct me if I'm wrong, )--but I know from personal experience that BST is NOT identical to TLC training because, as you comment in your posting, , BST is absorbed passively--it does not take active mental concentration, as does traditional NF. It is also much quicker than NF.And to ---you yourself, , said to me, "...maybe if you want to

get there without doing any work for

it..." or words to that effect. Well, of course I want to 'get there' the easiest possible way, , and of course I want to get there as quickly as possible! So does everybody. People have other things to devote their 'work' time to--like 'work,' for instance. That doesn't mean people are lazy, , it just means that they have other importance things going on and they want to get on with their lives.MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH BST:I've personally gone through BST--8 days, or 16 sessions, of it--in January 2011. To be frank, I just plain benefited from BST beyond my wildest expectations. I had given up all hope of a transformation in my life, but BST provided me with just that--a transformation. I now have a sense of inner calm and self-confidence that I've never known before, much more than I ever

achieved with meditation techniques. And the results I achieved from BST have been permanent because once one achieves a higher level of consciousness, then all decisions and actions are made from this level and one deals with life with more maturity. Even my husband has noticed and has even made the unsolicited comment that I seem 'different' now--better--more in charge of my life--and, believe me, my husband has NEVER said anything like that to me before in the 30+ years we've known each other! And when I say 'never,' I don't mean 'hardly ever'--I mean 'NEVER.' My husband's surprise comment reflects what Gerdes says regarding many who undergo BST--"...they just look so much more present." [the word 'present' in italics].I urge all NF practitioners to research BST further. I have no reason to say this to you, except that the results of BST are often so dramatic, as they

were in my case. Perhaps this is because Les Gerdes used the brain wave frequencies of two Buddhist monks to set up his first model, rather than the median of brain wave samples taken throughout the world (NF).MY CONVERSATION WITH HERSHEL TOOMIM:I don't know if one can reach a higher level of consciousness through traditional NF techniques or not, but can one reach it through NF in just three days? I spoke with Hershel Toomim about my experience with BST for over an hour one day. Hershel was a true professional, and a good listener--he respected what I told him about my experience with BST, and he accepted my words on face value--after all, I had no reason to lie to him about my experience, and he recognized that. Hershel asked me how long it took me to achieve the profound

change I experienced with BST, and I told him '3 days.' He said, "Three days!" Hershel was clearly impressed, and he told me he was going to explore BST further. He told me that he was positive that he could duplicate the results of BST. To my sorrow, Hershel, who I believe was 94 years old when I spoke to him, passed away shortly after our conversation. I hope other NF practitioners will pick up Hershel's torch and find out how BST works and duplicate it so that it can become more available to the public. I know that Gerdes didn't seek to have BST copyrighted (or patented? I forget which) because it would be too easy for others to duplicate once his secret was out. A BST practitioner told me that Gerdes felt that BST had a '5 year window' before others figured it out. Hershel himself was so positive that he could easily figure it out himself, but

unfortunately he didn't live long enough to pursue it--so, one of you out there, please pick up Hershel's torch. BST works better than traditional NF--I'm sure of it. Read about it online; take the 5-day/10-session BST training yourself; watch the youtube videos of the severely involved child receiving BST in AZ; read the testimonials of soldiers suffering from PTSD.RE: LES GERDES:I have no allegiance to Les Gerdes himself--in fact, I fear his apparently-harsh business practices might 'do BST in'-- but I do know that his Brain State Training worked extremely well for me and for others, and that BST doesn't require dozens or hundreds of sessions to achieve desired results as does NF. And children can play with their toys if they want to, while undergoing BST, rather than be coerced into focusing on the computer screen

In his book "Limitless You," Gerdes explains that he achieved better results from NF for his PTSD than he did with other treatments, such as drugs or psychotherapy (he was attacked and beaten by a gang of kids in San Francisco); but, Gerdes said, NF just didn't work fast enough, and he wanted to get on with his life. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH 'BEING A GOOD MARKETER.' Van Deusen comments that Les Gerdes is a good "marketer," and I suppose Pete is right about that--but Gerdes' marketing skills DO NOT in any way diminish the genuine value of BST as a treatment. Marketing was Gerdes's forte to begin with, and he was good at it--he was a major force behind making Amazon.com the major force that it is today. But that's not an argument against the true value of

BST.RE:

LENS:I intend to take further sessions of BST--but I, too, wonder whether I might benefit as much or more from LENS. From what I've been told, LENS tends to be of greatest benefit to those who have undergone recent severe trauma, such as a stroke. I also read somewhere--I think in the book "A Symphony in the Brain" by Jim Robbins--that LENS has even benefited dogs that had been emotionally traumatized as a result of Hurricane Katrina and were left abandoned. These traumatized dogs, who had started snapping at people in their fear, became calm enough to be adoptable again.In other words, with LENS, as with BST, one does not have to be actively engaged in the process in order to benefit from it. You can even benefit from BST if you fall asleep. I was told during my BST sessions to simply to imagine myself relaxing in

a pleasant surrounding. I chose to picture myself on a blanket on a beach in Galveston TX, where I lived for 2 years. There were a couple of other visualization things I was asked to follow for BST, but that was it. I didn't have to actively concentrate on anything, like make a submarine going up and down, or make an airplane fly, on the computer screen in front of me.STUDY BEING PERFORMED ON BST:I've considered trying traditional NF--which is why I'm on this site, to learn more about it--but, based on what I've read to date on this site, plus on Les Gerdes' book "Limitless You," plus on testimonials for BST that I've read, it sounds like BST is much faster than traditional NF and that it's the most cost-effective way to go.Another point worth mentioning: The U. of Va. is

currently conducting a study on BST, with the support and cooperation of the US Military, on 350 soldiers suffering from PTSD. The reason that the military chose to pursue this study is that they are desperate to find some effective means to deal with PTSD of their returning soldiers, and testimonials of soldiers with PTSD who have undergone BST have been impressive. IMPT FOR NEUROFEEDBACK PRACTITIONERS TO KNOW: SOLDIERS SUFFERING FROM PTSD CAN RECEIVE BST FOR FREE:Which brings to mind something else that NF practitioners need to know: MOST, IF NOT ALL, BRAIN STATE TRAINING CENTERS THROUGHOUT THE US, OFFER SOLDIERS WHO SERVED IN A WAR ZONE and who are now experiencing PTSD AS A RESULT, BST TREATMENT WITHOUT CHARGE. So if you know of any soldiers suffering from PTSD, whether it be from Viet Nam or Iraq or

Afghanistan, please call Brain State Technology's AZ office for more details.Being from a military family myself, I care a lot about our soldiers--a whole lot. If you know ANY soldier suffering from PTSD as a result of serving in a war zone, PLEASE pass this information on to the soldier or his family. Professional responsibility calls for it.I have great respect for all of you NF practitioners--you deserve more attention and respect than the medical community gives you. Thank you for all you've done to help people in need.Yours,Shane New Hope PAFrom: mercado_83 <mercado_83@...> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 2:19 PMSubject: Re: What's the scoop on Les Fehmi

I skimmed through the BST file Pete uploaded. From what I can tell, the BST software provides feedback in the form of sounds that reflect some aspects of the real-time activity of the brain, and the brain is hypothesized to automatically correct itself while listening to the sounds, and the user sits passively without actively trying to change anything (p. 9-11). To me, that sounds closer to the LENS approach than the TLC approach (the TLC approach being closer to "traditional" methods of neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for BST...well, I've already written that story several times, and I'm

> tired of it. Of course it "works" for some people, and doesn't for others.

> All NF does. But BST, and certainly Mr. Gerdes, are much more about

> marketing than about brain training. I have recently seen that they are now

> calling what they do (drum-roll)

> "High-resolution, Relational, Resonance-Based Electroencephalic Mirroring"

> or HIRREM (which name, by the way, is TRADEMARKED!! If you put salt in a

> fancy container and call it low-cal, all-natural, gluten-free NaCl

> flavoring, you'll probably be able to sell it for double the price to at

> least some of the market. And no matter what you call it, it still adds a

> salty taste to your food, so many people will like it--same as regular salt

> in a simple package. That's marketing. And if you can get a few

> "celebrities" to swear that they won't eat a bite without it, well, you'll

> sell even more.

>

> Anyone wants to read the 18-page "article" setting this forth, I've uploaded

> it to in the Files area

> /files/

> Anyone who is particularly interested might wish to glance through pp13-17,

> where they explain the difference between HIRREM (sorry, I can't find the TM

> key on my keyboard) and "regular" neurofeedback.

>

> Let the buyer beware, regardless of what he/she is buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305 433 3160

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

-- Watch for all that beauty reflecting from you and sing a love song to your existence. Rumi ♥

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Share on other sites

Shane,

as my mother used to say, " enough is enough", o.k.?

how about we change the subject?

Sue

On 10/27/2011 9:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Thank you, ,

I'll have to ask Pete about that. Pete didn't

mention that to me on the phone when I spoke to him a

few months ago. In fact, Pete said he felt I'd be

better off staying with BST (not just for myself, but

for my 3 adult children).

Shane

From: Duncan

<karenduncan@...>

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

10:57 PM

Subject: Re:

....scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane~

It has been proven that BST designs are

EXACTLY some of the old TLC designs from years

back. If you benefited from the BST training

like you say then the same intensity with TLC

training will do even more for you since the

assessment one would work with would be more

informative, not just the one page (heads

page) Lee lifted from Pete's TLC assessment

after he took Pete's training.

~

From: "Shane "

<tracyshane@...>

,

"mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>

Cc: tracyshane@...

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

10:44:26 PM

Subject: ...scoop on

Les Fehmi. Good information, .

(mercado 83),

That's a good comment you

made below.

I know that Van

Deusen has reservations about

Brain State Training because Les

Gerdes studied under .

told me over the phone that

Gerdes' methods are identical to

TLC's (please correct me if I'm

wrong, )--but I know from

personal experience that BST is

NOT identical to TLC training

because, as you comment in your

posting, , BST is absorbed

passively--it does not take active

mental concentration, as does

traditional NF. It is also much

quicker than NF.

And to ---you

yourself, , said to me,

"...maybe if you want to get there

without doing any work for it..."

or words to that effect. Well, of

course I want to 'get there' the

easiest possible way, , and

of course I want to get there as

quickly as possible! So does

everybody. People have other

things to devote their 'work' time

to--like 'work,' for instance.

That doesn't mean people are

lazy, , it just means that

they have other importance things

going on and they want to get on

with their lives.

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH

BST:

I've personally gone

through BST--8 days, or 16

sessions, of it--in January 2011.

To be frank, I just plain

benefited from BST beyond my

wildest expectations. I had given

up all hope of a transformation in

my life, but BST provided me with

just that--a transformation. I

now have a sense of inner calm and

self-confidence that I've never

known before, much more than I

ever achieved with meditation

techniques. And the results I

achieved from BST have been

permanent because once one

achieves a higher level of

consciousness, then all decisions

and actions are made from this

level and one deals with life with

more maturity. Even my husband

has noticed and has even made the

unsolicited comment that I seem

'different' now--better--more in

charge of my life--and, believe

me, my husband has NEVER said

anything like that to me before in

the 30+ years we've known each

other! And when I say 'never,' I

don't mean 'hardly ever'--I mean

'NEVER.' My husband's surprise

comment reflects what Gerdes says

regarding many who undergo

BST--"...they just look so much

more present." [the word 'present'

in italics].

I urge all NF practitioners

to research BST further. I have

no reason to say this to you,

except that the results of BST are

often so dramatic, as they were in

my case. Perhaps this is because

Les Gerdes used the brain wave

frequencies of two Buddhist monks

to set up his first model, rather

than the median of brain wave

samples taken throughout the world

(NF).

MY CONVERSATION WITH

HERSHEL TOOMIM:

I don't know if one can

reach a higher level of

consciousness through traditional

NF techniques or not, but can one

reach it through NF in just three

days?

I spoke with Hershel Toomim

about my experience with BST for

over an hour one day. Hershel was

a true professional, and a good

listener--he respected what I told

him about my experience with BST,

and he accepted my words on face

value--after all, I had no reason

to lie to him about my experience,

and he recognized that. Hershel

asked me how long it took me to

achieve the profound change I

experienced with BST, and I told

him '3 days.' He said, "Three

days!" Hershel was clearly

impressed, and he told me he was

going to explore BST further. He

told me that he was positive that

he could duplicate the results of

BST. To my sorrow, Hershel, who I

believe was 94 years old when I

spoke to him, passed away shortly

after our conversation.

I hope other NF

practitioners will pick up

Hershel's torch and find out how

BST works and duplicate it so that

it can become more available to

the public. I know that Gerdes

didn't seek to have BST

copyrighted (or patented? I

forget which) because it would be

too easy for others to duplicate

once his secret was out. A BST

practitioner told me that Gerdes

felt that BST had a '5 year

window' before others figured it

out. Hershel himself was so

positive that he could easily

figure it out himself, but

unfortunately he didn't live long

enough to pursue it--so, one of

you out there, please pick up

Hershel's torch. BST works better

than traditional NF--I'm sure of

it. Read about it online; take

the 5-day/10-session BST training

yourself; watch the youtube videos

of the severely involved child

receiving BST in AZ; read the

testimonials of soldiers suffering

from PTSD.

RE: LES GERDES:

I have no allegiance to Les

Gerdes himself--in fact, I fear

his apparently-harsh business

practices might 'do BST in'-- but

I do know that his Brain State

Training worked extremely well for

me and for others, and that BST

doesn't require dozens or hundreds

of sessions to achieve desired

results as does NF. And children

can play with their toys if they

want to, while undergoing BST,

rather than be coerced into

focusing on the computer screen

In his book "Limitless

You," Gerdes explains that he

achieved better results from NF

for his PTSD than he did with

other treatments, such as drugs or

psychotherapy (he was attacked and

beaten by a gang of kids in San

Francisco); but, Gerdes said, NF

just didn't work fast enough, and

he wanted to get on with his life.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH 'BEING

A GOOD MARKETER.'

Van Deusen comments that Les

Gerdes is a good "marketer," and I

suppose Pete is right about

that--but Gerdes' marketing skills

DO NOT in any way diminish the

genuine value of BST as a

treatment. Marketing was Gerdes's

forte to begin with, and he was

good at it--he was a major force

behind making Amazon.com

the major force that it is today.

But that's not an argument

against the true value of BST.

RE: LENS:

I intend to take further

sessions of BST--but I, too,

wonder whether I might benefit as

much or more from LENS. From what

I've been told, LENS tends to be

of greatest benefit to those who

have undergone recent severe

trauma, such as a stroke. I also

read somewhere--I think in the

book "A Symphony in the Brain" by

Jim Robbins--that LENS has even

benefited dogs that had been

emotionally traumatized as a

result of Hurricane Katrina and

were left abandoned. These

traumatized dogs, who had started

snapping at people in their fear,

became calm enough to be adoptable

again.

In other words, with LENS,

as with BST, one does not have to

be actively engaged in the process

in order to benefit from it. You

can even benefit from BST if you

fall asleep. I was told during my

BST sessions to simply to imagine

myself relaxing in a pleasant

surrounding. I chose to picture

myself on a blanket on a beach in

Galveston TX, where I lived for 2

years. There were a couple of

other visualization things I was

asked to follow for BST, but that

was it. I didn't have to actively

concentrate on anything, like make

a submarine going up and down, or

make an airplane fly, on the

computer screen in front of me.

STUDY BEING PERFORMED ON

BST:

I've considered trying

traditional NF--which is why I'm

on this site, to learn more about

it--but, based on what I've read

to date on this site, plus on Les

Gerdes' book "Limitless You," plus

on testimonials for BST that I've

read, it sounds like BST is much

faster than traditional NF and

that it's the most cost-effective

way to go.

Another point worth

mentioning: The U. of Va. is

currently conducting a study on

BST, with the support and

cooperation of the US Military, on

350 soldiers suffering from PTSD.

The reason that the military

chose to pursue this study is that

they are desperate to find some

effective means to deal with PTSD

of their returning soldiers, and

testimonials of soldiers with PTSD

who have undergone BST have been

impressive.

IMPT FOR NEUROFEEDBACK

PRACTITIONERS TO KNOW: SOLDIERS

SUFFERING FROM PTSD CAN RECEIVE

BST FOR FREE:

Which brings to mind

something else that NF

practitioners need to know: MOST,

IF NOT ALL, BRAIN STATE TRAINING

CENTERS THROUGHOUT THE US, OFFER

SOLDIERS WHO SERVED IN A WAR ZONE

and who are now experiencing PTSD

AS A RESULT, BST TREATMENT

WITHOUT CHARGE. So if you know

of any soldiers suffering from

PTSD, whether it be from Viet Nam

or Iraq or Afghanistan, please

call Brain State Technology's AZ

office for more details.

Being from a military

family myself, I care a lot about

our soldiers--a whole lot. If you

know ANY soldier suffering from

PTSD as a result of serving in a

war zone, PLEASE pass this

information on to the soldier or

his family. Professional

responsibility calls for it.

I have great respect for

all of you NF practitioners--you

deserve more attention and respect

than the medical community gives

you. Thank you for all you've

done to help people in need.

Yours,

Shane

New Hope PA

From:

mercado_83

<mercado_83@...>

To:

Sent:

Thursday, October 27, 2011 2:19 PM

Subject:

Re: What's the

scoop on Les Fehmi

I skimmed through the BST

file Pete uploaded. From

what I can tell, the BST

software provides feedback

in the form of sounds that

reflect some aspects of

the real-time activity of

the brain, and the brain

is hypothesized to

automatically correct

itself while listening to

the sounds, and the user

sits passively without

actively trying to change

anything (p. 9-11). To me,

that sounds closer to the

LENS approach than the TLC

approach (the TLC approach

being closer to

"traditional" methods of

neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for BST...well,

I've already written that

story several times, and

I'm

> tired of it. Of

course it "works" for some

people, and doesn't for

others.

> All NF does. But BST,

and certainly Mr. Gerdes,

are much more about

> marketing than about

brain training. I have

recently seen that they

are now

> calling what they do

(drum-roll)

> "High-resolution,

Relational,

Resonance-Based

Electroencephalic

Mirroring"

> or HIRREM (which

name, by the way, is

TRADEMARKED!! If you put

salt in a

> fancy container and

call it low-cal,

all-natural, gluten-free

NaCl

> flavoring, you'll

probably be able to sell

it for double the price to

at

> least some of the

market. And no matter what

you call it, it still adds

a

> salty taste to your

food, so many people will

like it--same as regular

salt

> in a simple package.

That's marketing. And if

you can get a few

> "celebrities" to

swear that they won't eat

a bite without it, well,

you'll

> sell even more.

>

> Anyone wants to read

the 18-page "article"

setting this forth, I've

uploaded

> it to in

the Files area

>

/files/

> Anyone who is

particularly interested

might wish to glance

through pp13-17,

> where they explain

the difference between

HIRREM (sorry, I can't

find the TM

> key on my keyboard)

and "regular"

neurofeedback.

>

> Let the buyer beware,

regardless of what he/she

is buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

>

http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305 433 3160

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve,

Inc.

--

Watch for all that

beauty reflecting from you and

sing a love song to your

existence.

Rumi

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.920 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3979 - Release Date: 10/27/11 12:35:00

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shane,

as my mother used to say, " enough is enough", o.k.?

how about we change the subject?

Sue

On 10/27/2011 9:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Thank you, ,

I'll have to ask Pete about that. Pete didn't

mention that to me on the phone when I spoke to him a

few months ago. In fact, Pete said he felt I'd be

better off staying with BST (not just for myself, but

for my 3 adult children).

Shane

From: Duncan

<karenduncan@...>

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

10:57 PM

Subject: Re:

....scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane~

It has been proven that BST designs are

EXACTLY some of the old TLC designs from years

back. If you benefited from the BST training

like you say then the same intensity with TLC

training will do even more for you since the

assessment one would work with would be more

informative, not just the one page (heads

page) Lee lifted from Pete's TLC assessment

after he took Pete's training.

~

From: "Shane "

<tracyshane@...>

,

"mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>

Cc: tracyshane@...

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

10:44:26 PM

Subject: ...scoop on

Les Fehmi. Good information, .

(mercado 83),

That's a good comment you

made below.

I know that Van

Deusen has reservations about

Brain State Training because Les

Gerdes studied under .

told me over the phone that

Gerdes' methods are identical to

TLC's (please correct me if I'm

wrong, )--but I know from

personal experience that BST is

NOT identical to TLC training

because, as you comment in your

posting, , BST is absorbed

passively--it does not take active

mental concentration, as does

traditional NF. It is also much

quicker than NF.

And to ---you

yourself, , said to me,

"...maybe if you want to get there

without doing any work for it..."

or words to that effect. Well, of

course I want to 'get there' the

easiest possible way, , and

of course I want to get there as

quickly as possible! So does

everybody. People have other

things to devote their 'work' time

to--like 'work,' for instance.

That doesn't mean people are

lazy, , it just means that

they have other importance things

going on and they want to get on

with their lives.

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH

BST:

I've personally gone

through BST--8 days, or 16

sessions, of it--in January 2011.

To be frank, I just plain

benefited from BST beyond my

wildest expectations. I had given

up all hope of a transformation in

my life, but BST provided me with

just that--a transformation. I

now have a sense of inner calm and

self-confidence that I've never

known before, much more than I

ever achieved with meditation

techniques. And the results I

achieved from BST have been

permanent because once one

achieves a higher level of

consciousness, then all decisions

and actions are made from this

level and one deals with life with

more maturity. Even my husband

has noticed and has even made the

unsolicited comment that I seem

'different' now--better--more in

charge of my life--and, believe

me, my husband has NEVER said

anything like that to me before in

the 30+ years we've known each

other! And when I say 'never,' I

don't mean 'hardly ever'--I mean

'NEVER.' My husband's surprise

comment reflects what Gerdes says

regarding many who undergo

BST--"...they just look so much

more present." [the word 'present'

in italics].

I urge all NF practitioners

to research BST further. I have

no reason to say this to you,

except that the results of BST are

often so dramatic, as they were in

my case. Perhaps this is because

Les Gerdes used the brain wave

frequencies of two Buddhist monks

to set up his first model, rather

than the median of brain wave

samples taken throughout the world

(NF).

MY CONVERSATION WITH

HERSHEL TOOMIM:

I don't know if one can

reach a higher level of

consciousness through traditional

NF techniques or not, but can one

reach it through NF in just three

days?

I spoke with Hershel Toomim

about my experience with BST for

over an hour one day. Hershel was

a true professional, and a good

listener--he respected what I told

him about my experience with BST,

and he accepted my words on face

value--after all, I had no reason

to lie to him about my experience,

and he recognized that. Hershel

asked me how long it took me to

achieve the profound change I

experienced with BST, and I told

him '3 days.' He said, "Three

days!" Hershel was clearly

impressed, and he told me he was

going to explore BST further. He

told me that he was positive that

he could duplicate the results of

BST. To my sorrow, Hershel, who I

believe was 94 years old when I

spoke to him, passed away shortly

after our conversation.

I hope other NF

practitioners will pick up

Hershel's torch and find out how

BST works and duplicate it so that

it can become more available to

the public. I know that Gerdes

didn't seek to have BST

copyrighted (or patented? I

forget which) because it would be

too easy for others to duplicate

once his secret was out. A BST

practitioner told me that Gerdes

felt that BST had a '5 year

window' before others figured it

out. Hershel himself was so

positive that he could easily

figure it out himself, but

unfortunately he didn't live long

enough to pursue it--so, one of

you out there, please pick up

Hershel's torch. BST works better

than traditional NF--I'm sure of

it. Read about it online; take

the 5-day/10-session BST training

yourself; watch the youtube videos

of the severely involved child

receiving BST in AZ; read the

testimonials of soldiers suffering

from PTSD.

RE: LES GERDES:

I have no allegiance to Les

Gerdes himself--in fact, I fear

his apparently-harsh business

practices might 'do BST in'-- but

I do know that his Brain State

Training worked extremely well for

me and for others, and that BST

doesn't require dozens or hundreds

of sessions to achieve desired

results as does NF. And children

can play with their toys if they

want to, while undergoing BST,

rather than be coerced into

focusing on the computer screen

In his book "Limitless

You," Gerdes explains that he

achieved better results from NF

for his PTSD than he did with

other treatments, such as drugs or

psychotherapy (he was attacked and

beaten by a gang of kids in San

Francisco); but, Gerdes said, NF

just didn't work fast enough, and

he wanted to get on with his life.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH 'BEING

A GOOD MARKETER.'

Van Deusen comments that Les

Gerdes is a good "marketer," and I

suppose Pete is right about

that--but Gerdes' marketing skills

DO NOT in any way diminish the

genuine value of BST as a

treatment. Marketing was Gerdes's

forte to begin with, and he was

good at it--he was a major force

behind making Amazon.com

the major force that it is today.

But that's not an argument

against the true value of BST.

RE: LENS:

I intend to take further

sessions of BST--but I, too,

wonder whether I might benefit as

much or more from LENS. From what

I've been told, LENS tends to be

of greatest benefit to those who

have undergone recent severe

trauma, such as a stroke. I also

read somewhere--I think in the

book "A Symphony in the Brain" by

Jim Robbins--that LENS has even

benefited dogs that had been

emotionally traumatized as a

result of Hurricane Katrina and

were left abandoned. These

traumatized dogs, who had started

snapping at people in their fear,

became calm enough to be adoptable

again.

In other words, with LENS,

as with BST, one does not have to

be actively engaged in the process

in order to benefit from it. You

can even benefit from BST if you

fall asleep. I was told during my

BST sessions to simply to imagine

myself relaxing in a pleasant

surrounding. I chose to picture

myself on a blanket on a beach in

Galveston TX, where I lived for 2

years. There were a couple of

other visualization things I was

asked to follow for BST, but that

was it. I didn't have to actively

concentrate on anything, like make

a submarine going up and down, or

make an airplane fly, on the

computer screen in front of me.

STUDY BEING PERFORMED ON

BST:

I've considered trying

traditional NF--which is why I'm

on this site, to learn more about

it--but, based on what I've read

to date on this site, plus on Les

Gerdes' book "Limitless You," plus

on testimonials for BST that I've

read, it sounds like BST is much

faster than traditional NF and

that it's the most cost-effective

way to go.

Another point worth

mentioning: The U. of Va. is

currently conducting a study on

BST, with the support and

cooperation of the US Military, on

350 soldiers suffering from PTSD.

The reason that the military

chose to pursue this study is that

they are desperate to find some

effective means to deal with PTSD

of their returning soldiers, and

testimonials of soldiers with PTSD

who have undergone BST have been

impressive.

IMPT FOR NEUROFEEDBACK

PRACTITIONERS TO KNOW: SOLDIERS

SUFFERING FROM PTSD CAN RECEIVE

BST FOR FREE:

Which brings to mind

something else that NF

practitioners need to know: MOST,

IF NOT ALL, BRAIN STATE TRAINING

CENTERS THROUGHOUT THE US, OFFER

SOLDIERS WHO SERVED IN A WAR ZONE

and who are now experiencing PTSD

AS A RESULT, BST TREATMENT

WITHOUT CHARGE. So if you know

of any soldiers suffering from

PTSD, whether it be from Viet Nam

or Iraq or Afghanistan, please

call Brain State Technology's AZ

office for more details.

Being from a military

family myself, I care a lot about

our soldiers--a whole lot. If you

know ANY soldier suffering from

PTSD as a result of serving in a

war zone, PLEASE pass this

information on to the soldier or

his family. Professional

responsibility calls for it.

I have great respect for

all of you NF practitioners--you

deserve more attention and respect

than the medical community gives

you. Thank you for all you've

done to help people in need.

Yours,

Shane

New Hope PA

From:

mercado_83

<mercado_83@...>

To:

Sent:

Thursday, October 27, 2011 2:19 PM

Subject:

Re: What's the

scoop on Les Fehmi

I skimmed through the BST

file Pete uploaded. From

what I can tell, the BST

software provides feedback

in the form of sounds that

reflect some aspects of

the real-time activity of

the brain, and the brain

is hypothesized to

automatically correct

itself while listening to

the sounds, and the user

sits passively without

actively trying to change

anything (p. 9-11). To me,

that sounds closer to the

LENS approach than the TLC

approach (the TLC approach

being closer to

"traditional" methods of

neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for BST...well,

I've already written that

story several times, and

I'm

> tired of it. Of

course it "works" for some

people, and doesn't for

others.

> All NF does. But BST,

and certainly Mr. Gerdes,

are much more about

> marketing than about

brain training. I have

recently seen that they

are now

> calling what they do

(drum-roll)

> "High-resolution,

Relational,

Resonance-Based

Electroencephalic

Mirroring"

> or HIRREM (which

name, by the way, is

TRADEMARKED!! If you put

salt in a

> fancy container and

call it low-cal,

all-natural, gluten-free

NaCl

> flavoring, you'll

probably be able to sell

it for double the price to

at

> least some of the

market. And no matter what

you call it, it still adds

a

> salty taste to your

food, so many people will

like it--same as regular

salt

> in a simple package.

That's marketing. And if

you can get a few

> "celebrities" to

swear that they won't eat

a bite without it, well,

you'll

> sell even more.

>

> Anyone wants to read

the 18-page "article"

setting this forth, I've

uploaded

> it to in

the Files area

>

/files/

> Anyone who is

particularly interested

might wish to glance

through pp13-17,

> where they explain

the difference between

HIRREM (sorry, I can't

find the TM

> key on my keyboard)

and "regular"

neurofeedback.

>

> Let the buyer beware,

regardless of what he/she

is buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

>

http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305 433 3160

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve,

Inc.

--

Watch for all that

beauty reflecting from you and

sing a love song to your

existence.

Rumi

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.920 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3979 - Release Date: 10/27/11 12:35:00

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Sue,With all due respect, I'm here to learn from others and to convey my own personal experiences regarding NF. Sites like this chat group allow an exchange of information that one simply can't get by reading a textbook. I'm grateful to those individuals who have posted their comments and have shown interest in my personal experiences. But no one is obligated to read my (or anyone else's) postings, Sue, so feel free to skip over mine in the future.However, Sue, I hope you DID take in what I said about most BST centers offering free services to US soldiers who served in a war zone and who are suffering PTSD. We owe it to our soldiers and their families to inform them of this. Let the

soldiers decide for themselves whether they want to pursue BST or not.Thanks,ShaneFrom: Sue Breazeale <grams@...> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:05 PMSubject: Re: ...scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane,

as my mother used to say, " enough is enough", o.k.?

how about we change the subject?

Sue

On 10/27/2011 9:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Thank you, ,

I'll have to ask Pete about that. Pete didn't

mention that to me on the phone when I spoke to him a

few months ago. In fact, Pete said he felt I'd be

better off staying with BST (not just for myself, but

for my 3 adult children).

Shane

From: Duncan

<karenduncan@...>

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

10:57 PM

Subject: Re:

....scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane~

It has been proven that BST designs are

EXACTLY some of the old TLC designs from years

back. If you benefited from the BST training

like you say then the same intensity with TLC

training will do even more for you since the

assessment one would work with would be more

informative, not just the one page (heads

page) Lee lifted from Pete's TLC assessment

after he took Pete's training.

~

From: "Shane "

<tracyshane@...>

,

"mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>

Cc: tracyshane@...

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

10:44:26 PM

Subject: ...scoop on

Les Fehmi. Good information, .

(mercado 83),

That's a good comment you

made below.

I know that Van

Deusen has reservations about

Brain State Training because Les

Gerdes studied under .

told me over the phone that

Gerdes' methods are identical to

TLC's (please correct me if I'm

wrong, )--but I know from

personal experience that BST is

NOT identical to TLC training

because, as you comment in your

posting, , BST is absorbed

passively--it does not take active

mental concentration, as does

traditional NF. It is also much

quicker than NF.

And to ---you

yourself, , said to me,

"...maybe if you want to get there

without doing any work for it..."

or words to that effect. Well, of

course I want to 'get there' the

easiest possible way, , and

of course I want to get there as

quickly as possible! So does

everybody. People have other

things to devote their 'work' time

to--like 'work,' for instance.

That doesn't mean people are

lazy, , it just means that

they have other importance things

going on and they want to get on

with their lives.

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH

BST:

I've personally gone

through BST--8 days, or 16

sessions, of it--in January 2011.

To be frank, I just plain

benefited from BST beyond my

wildest expectations. I had given

up all hope of a transformation in

my life, but BST provided me with

just that--a transformation. I

now have a sense of inner calm and

self-confidence that I've never

known before, much more than I

ever achieved with meditation

techniques. And the results I

achieved from BST have been

permanent because once one

achieves a higher level of

consciousness, then all decisions

and actions are made from this

level and one deals with life with

more maturity. Even my husband

has noticed and has even made the

unsolicited comment that I seem

'different' now--better--more in

charge of my life--and, believe

me, my husband has NEVER said

anything like that to me before in

the 30+ years we've known each

other! And when I say 'never,' I

don't mean 'hardly ever'--I mean

'NEVER.' My husband's surprise

comment reflects what Gerdes says

regarding many who undergo

BST--"...they just look so much

more present." [the word 'present'

in italics].

I urge all NF practitioners

to research BST further. I have

no reason to say this to you,

except that the results of BST are

often so dramatic, as they were in

my case. Perhaps this is because

Les Gerdes used the brain wave

frequencies of two Buddhist monks

to set up his first model, rather

than the median of brain wave

samples taken throughout the world

(NF).

MY CONVERSATION WITH

HERSHEL TOOMIM:

I don't know if one can

reach a higher level of

consciousness through traditional

NF techniques or not, but can one

reach it through NF in just three

days?

I spoke with Hershel Toomim

about my experience with BST for

over an hour one day. Hershel was

a true professional, and a good

listener--he respected what I told

him about my experience with BST,

and he accepted my words on face

value--after all, I had no reason

to lie to him about my experience,

and he recognized that. Hershel

asked me how long it took me to

achieve the profound change I

experienced with BST, and I told

him '3 days.' He said, "Three

days!" Hershel was clearly

impressed, and he told me he was

going to explore BST further. He

told me that he was positive that

he could duplicate the results of

BST. To my sorrow, Hershel, who I

believe was 94 years old when I

spoke to him, passed away shortly

after our conversation.

I hope other NF

practitioners will pick up

Hershel's torch and find out how

BST works and duplicate it so that

it can become more available to

the public. I know that Gerdes

didn't seek to have BST

copyrighted (or patented? I

forget which) because it would be

too easy for others to duplicate

once his secret was out. A BST

practitioner told me that Gerdes

felt that BST had a '5 year

window' before others figured it

out. Hershel himself was so

positive that he could easily

figure it out himself, but

unfortunately he didn't live long

enough to pursue it--so, one of

you out there, please pick up

Hershel's torch. BST works better

than traditional NF--I'm sure of

it. Read about it online; take

the 5-day/10-session BST training

yourself; watch the youtube videos

of the severely involved child

receiving BST in AZ; read the

testimonials of soldiers suffering

from PTSD.

RE: LES GERDES:

I have no allegiance to Les

Gerdes himself--in fact, I fear

his apparently-harsh business

practices might 'do BST in'-- but

I do know that his Brain State

Training worked extremely well for

me and for others, and that BST

doesn't require dozens or hundreds

of sessions to achieve desired

results as does NF. And children

can play with their toys if they

want to, while undergoing BST,

rather than be coerced into

focusing on the computer screen

In his book "Limitless

You," Gerdes explains that he

achieved better results from NF

for his PTSD than he did with

other treatments, such as drugs or

psychotherapy (he was attacked and

beaten by a gang of kids in San

Francisco); but, Gerdes said, NF

just didn't work fast enough, and

he wanted to get on with his life.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH 'BEING

A GOOD MARKETER.'

Van Deusen comments that Les

Gerdes is a good "marketer," and I

suppose Pete is right about

that--but Gerdes' marketing skills

DO NOT in any way diminish the

genuine value of BST as a

treatment. Marketing was Gerdes's

forte to begin with, and he was

good at it--he was a major force

behind making Amazon.com

the major force that it is today.

But that's not an argument

against the true value of BST.

RE: LENS:

I intend to take further

sessions of BST--but I, too,

wonder whether I might benefit as

much or more from LENS. From what

I've been told, LENS tends to be

of greatest benefit to those who

have undergone recent severe

trauma, such as a stroke. I also

read somewhere--I think in the

book "A Symphony in the Brain" by

Jim Robbins--that LENS has even

benefited dogs that had been

emotionally traumatized as a

result of Hurricane Katrina and

were left abandoned. These

traumatized dogs, who had started

snapping at people in their fear,

became calm enough to be adoptable

again.

In other words, with LENS,

as with BST, one does not have to

be actively engaged in the process

in order to benefit from it. You

can even benefit from BST if you

fall asleep. I was told during my

BST sessions to simply to imagine

myself relaxing in a pleasant

surrounding. I chose to picture

myself on a blanket on a beach in

Galveston TX, where I lived for 2

years. There were a couple of

other visualization things I was

asked to follow for BST, but that

was it. I didn't have to actively

concentrate on anything, like make

a submarine going up and down, or

make an airplane fly, on the

computer screen in front of me.

STUDY BEING PERFORMED ON

BST:

I've considered trying

traditional NF--which is why I'm

on this site, to learn more about

it--but, based on what I've read

to date on this site, plus on Les

Gerdes' book "Limitless You," plus

on testimonials for BST that I've

read, it sounds like BST is much

faster than traditional NF and

that it's the most cost-effective

way to go.

Another point worth

mentioning: The U. of Va. is

currently conducting a study on

BST, with the support and

cooperation of the US Military, on

350 soldiers suffering from PTSD.

The reason that the military

chose to pursue this study is that

they are desperate to find some

effective means to deal with PTSD

of their returning soldiers, and

testimonials of soldiers with PTSD

who have undergone BST have been

impressive.

IMPT FOR NEUROFEEDBACK

PRACTITIONERS TO KNOW: SOLDIERS

SUFFERING FROM PTSD CAN RECEIVE

BST FOR FREE:

Which brings to mind

something else that NF

practitioners need to know: MOST,

IF NOT ALL, BRAIN STATE TRAINING

CENTERS THROUGHOUT THE US, OFFER

SOLDIERS WHO SERVED IN A WAR ZONE

and who are now experiencing PTSD

AS A RESULT, BST TREATMENT

WITHOUT CHARGE. So if you know

of any soldiers suffering from

PTSD, whether it be from Viet Nam

or Iraq or Afghanistan, please

call Brain State Technology's AZ

office for more details.

Being from a military

family myself, I care a lot about

our soldiers--a whole lot. If you

know ANY soldier suffering from

PTSD as a result of serving in a

war zone, PLEASE pass this

information on to the soldier or

his family. Professional

responsibility calls for it.

I have great respect for

all of you NF practitioners--you

deserve more attention and respect

than the medical community gives

you. Thank you for all you've

done to help people in need.

Yours,

Shane

New Hope PA

From:

mercado_83

<mercado_83@...>

To:

Sent:

Thursday, October 27, 2011 2:19 PM

Subject:

Re: What's the

scoop on Les Fehmi

I skimmed through the BST

file Pete uploaded. From

what I can tell, the BST

software provides feedback

in the form of sounds that

reflect some aspects of

the real-time activity of

the brain, and the brain

is hypothesized to

automatically correct

itself while listening to

the sounds, and the user

sits passively without

actively trying to change

anything (p. 9-11). To me,

that sounds closer to the

LENS approach than the TLC

approach (the TLC approach

being closer to

"traditional" methods of

neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for BST...well,

I've already written that

story several times, and

I'm

> tired of it. Of

course it "works" for some

people, and doesn't for

others.

> All NF does. But BST,

and certainly Mr. Gerdes,

are much more about

> marketing than about

brain training. I have

recently seen that they

are now

> calling what they do

(drum-roll)

> "High-resolution,

Relational,

Resonance-Based

Electroencephalic

Mirroring"

> or HIRREM (which

name, by the way, is

TRADEMARKED!! If you put

salt in a

> fancy container and

call it low-cal,

all-natural, gluten-free

NaCl

> flavoring, you'll

probably be able to sell

it for double the price to

at

> least some of the

market. And no matter what

you call it, it still adds

a

> salty taste to your

food, so many people will

like it--same as regular

salt

> in a simple package.

That's marketing. And if

you can get a few

> "celebrities" to

swear that they won't eat

a bite without it, well,

you'll

> sell even more.

>

> Anyone wants to read

the 18-page "article"

setting this forth, I've

uploaded

> it to in

the Files area

>

/files/

> Anyone who is

particularly interested

might wish to glance

through pp13-17,

> where they explain

the difference between

HIRREM (sorry, I can't

find the TM

> key on my keyboard)

and "regular"

neurofeedback.

>

> Let the buyer beware,

regardless of what he/she

is buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

>

http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305 433 3160

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve,

Inc.

--

Watch for all that

beauty reflecting from you and

sing a love song to your

existence.

Rumi

♥

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 9.0.920 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3979 - Release Date: 10/27/11 12:35:00

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Sue,With all due respect, I'm here to learn from others and to convey my own personal experiences regarding NF. Sites like this chat group allow an exchange of information that one simply can't get by reading a textbook. I'm grateful to those individuals who have posted their comments and have shown interest in my personal experiences. But no one is obligated to read my (or anyone else's) postings, Sue, so feel free to skip over mine in the future.However, Sue, I hope you DID take in what I said about most BST centers offering free services to US soldiers who served in a war zone and who are suffering PTSD. We owe it to our soldiers and their families to inform them of this. Let the

soldiers decide for themselves whether they want to pursue BST or not.Thanks,ShaneFrom: Sue Breazeale <grams@...> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:05 PMSubject: Re: ...scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane,

as my mother used to say, " enough is enough", o.k.?

how about we change the subject?

Sue

On 10/27/2011 9:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Thank you, ,

I'll have to ask Pete about that. Pete didn't

mention that to me on the phone when I spoke to him a

few months ago. In fact, Pete said he felt I'd be

better off staying with BST (not just for myself, but

for my 3 adult children).

Shane

From: Duncan

<karenduncan@...>

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

10:57 PM

Subject: Re:

....scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane~

It has been proven that BST designs are

EXACTLY some of the old TLC designs from years

back. If you benefited from the BST training

like you say then the same intensity with TLC

training will do even more for you since the

assessment one would work with would be more

informative, not just the one page (heads

page) Lee lifted from Pete's TLC assessment

after he took Pete's training.

~

From: "Shane "

<tracyshane@...>

,

"mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>

Cc: tracyshane@...

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

10:44:26 PM

Subject: ...scoop on

Les Fehmi. Good information, .

(mercado 83),

That's a good comment you

made below.

I know that Van

Deusen has reservations about

Brain State Training because Les

Gerdes studied under .

told me over the phone that

Gerdes' methods are identical to

TLC's (please correct me if I'm

wrong, )--but I know from

personal experience that BST is

NOT identical to TLC training

because, as you comment in your

posting, , BST is absorbed

passively--it does not take active

mental concentration, as does

traditional NF. It is also much

quicker than NF.

And to ---you

yourself, , said to me,

"...maybe if you want to get there

without doing any work for it..."

or words to that effect. Well, of

course I want to 'get there' the

easiest possible way, , and

of course I want to get there as

quickly as possible! So does

everybody. People have other

things to devote their 'work' time

to--like 'work,' for instance.

That doesn't mean people are

lazy, , it just means that

they have other importance things

going on and they want to get on

with their lives.

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH

BST:

I've personally gone

through BST--8 days, or 16

sessions, of it--in January 2011.

To be frank, I just plain

benefited from BST beyond my

wildest expectations. I had given

up all hope of a transformation in

my life, but BST provided me with

just that--a transformation. I

now have a sense of inner calm and

self-confidence that I've never

known before, much more than I

ever achieved with meditation

techniques. And the results I

achieved from BST have been

permanent because once one

achieves a higher level of

consciousness, then all decisions

and actions are made from this

level and one deals with life with

more maturity. Even my husband

has noticed and has even made the

unsolicited comment that I seem

'different' now--better--more in

charge of my life--and, believe

me, my husband has NEVER said

anything like that to me before in

the 30+ years we've known each

other! And when I say 'never,' I

don't mean 'hardly ever'--I mean

'NEVER.' My husband's surprise

comment reflects what Gerdes says

regarding many who undergo

BST--"...they just look so much

more present." [the word 'present'

in italics].

I urge all NF practitioners

to research BST further. I have

no reason to say this to you,

except that the results of BST are

often so dramatic, as they were in

my case. Perhaps this is because

Les Gerdes used the brain wave

frequencies of two Buddhist monks

to set up his first model, rather

than the median of brain wave

samples taken throughout the world

(NF).

MY CONVERSATION WITH

HERSHEL TOOMIM:

I don't know if one can

reach a higher level of

consciousness through traditional

NF techniques or not, but can one

reach it through NF in just three

days?

I spoke with Hershel Toomim

about my experience with BST for

over an hour one day. Hershel was

a true professional, and a good

listener--he respected what I told

him about my experience with BST,

and he accepted my words on face

value--after all, I had no reason

to lie to him about my experience,

and he recognized that. Hershel

asked me how long it took me to

achieve the profound change I

experienced with BST, and I told

him '3 days.' He said, "Three

days!" Hershel was clearly

impressed, and he told me he was

going to explore BST further. He

told me that he was positive that

he could duplicate the results of

BST. To my sorrow, Hershel, who I

believe was 94 years old when I

spoke to him, passed away shortly

after our conversation.

I hope other NF

practitioners will pick up

Hershel's torch and find out how

BST works and duplicate it so that

it can become more available to

the public. I know that Gerdes

didn't seek to have BST

copyrighted (or patented? I

forget which) because it would be

too easy for others to duplicate

once his secret was out. A BST

practitioner told me that Gerdes

felt that BST had a '5 year

window' before others figured it

out. Hershel himself was so

positive that he could easily

figure it out himself, but

unfortunately he didn't live long

enough to pursue it--so, one of

you out there, please pick up

Hershel's torch. BST works better

than traditional NF--I'm sure of

it. Read about it online; take

the 5-day/10-session BST training

yourself; watch the youtube videos

of the severely involved child

receiving BST in AZ; read the

testimonials of soldiers suffering

from PTSD.

RE: LES GERDES:

I have no allegiance to Les

Gerdes himself--in fact, I fear

his apparently-harsh business

practices might 'do BST in'-- but

I do know that his Brain State

Training worked extremely well for

me and for others, and that BST

doesn't require dozens or hundreds

of sessions to achieve desired

results as does NF. And children

can play with their toys if they

want to, while undergoing BST,

rather than be coerced into

focusing on the computer screen

In his book "Limitless

You," Gerdes explains that he

achieved better results from NF

for his PTSD than he did with

other treatments, such as drugs or

psychotherapy (he was attacked and

beaten by a gang of kids in San

Francisco); but, Gerdes said, NF

just didn't work fast enough, and

he wanted to get on with his life.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH 'BEING

A GOOD MARKETER.'

Van Deusen comments that Les

Gerdes is a good "marketer," and I

suppose Pete is right about

that--but Gerdes' marketing skills

DO NOT in any way diminish the

genuine value of BST as a

treatment. Marketing was Gerdes's

forte to begin with, and he was

good at it--he was a major force

behind making Amazon.com

the major force that it is today.

But that's not an argument

against the true value of BST.

RE: LENS:

I intend to take further

sessions of BST--but I, too,

wonder whether I might benefit as

much or more from LENS. From what

I've been told, LENS tends to be

of greatest benefit to those who

have undergone recent severe

trauma, such as a stroke. I also

read somewhere--I think in the

book "A Symphony in the Brain" by

Jim Robbins--that LENS has even

benefited dogs that had been

emotionally traumatized as a

result of Hurricane Katrina and

were left abandoned. These

traumatized dogs, who had started

snapping at people in their fear,

became calm enough to be adoptable

again.

In other words, with LENS,

as with BST, one does not have to

be actively engaged in the process

in order to benefit from it. You

can even benefit from BST if you

fall asleep. I was told during my

BST sessions to simply to imagine

myself relaxing in a pleasant

surrounding. I chose to picture

myself on a blanket on a beach in

Galveston TX, where I lived for 2

years. There were a couple of

other visualization things I was

asked to follow for BST, but that

was it. I didn't have to actively

concentrate on anything, like make

a submarine going up and down, or

make an airplane fly, on the

computer screen in front of me.

STUDY BEING PERFORMED ON

BST:

I've considered trying

traditional NF--which is why I'm

on this site, to learn more about

it--but, based on what I've read

to date on this site, plus on Les

Gerdes' book "Limitless You," plus

on testimonials for BST that I've

read, it sounds like BST is much

faster than traditional NF and

that it's the most cost-effective

way to go.

Another point worth

mentioning: The U. of Va. is

currently conducting a study on

BST, with the support and

cooperation of the US Military, on

350 soldiers suffering from PTSD.

The reason that the military

chose to pursue this study is that

they are desperate to find some

effective means to deal with PTSD

of their returning soldiers, and

testimonials of soldiers with PTSD

who have undergone BST have been

impressive.

IMPT FOR NEUROFEEDBACK

PRACTITIONERS TO KNOW: SOLDIERS

SUFFERING FROM PTSD CAN RECEIVE

BST FOR FREE:

Which brings to mind

something else that NF

practitioners need to know: MOST,

IF NOT ALL, BRAIN STATE TRAINING

CENTERS THROUGHOUT THE US, OFFER

SOLDIERS WHO SERVED IN A WAR ZONE

and who are now experiencing PTSD

AS A RESULT, BST TREATMENT

WITHOUT CHARGE. So if you know

of any soldiers suffering from

PTSD, whether it be from Viet Nam

or Iraq or Afghanistan, please

call Brain State Technology's AZ

office for more details.

Being from a military

family myself, I care a lot about

our soldiers--a whole lot. If you

know ANY soldier suffering from

PTSD as a result of serving in a

war zone, PLEASE pass this

information on to the soldier or

his family. Professional

responsibility calls for it.

I have great respect for

all of you NF practitioners--you

deserve more attention and respect

than the medical community gives

you. Thank you for all you've

done to help people in need.

Yours,

Shane

New Hope PA

From:

mercado_83

<mercado_83@...>

To:

Sent:

Thursday, October 27, 2011 2:19 PM

Subject:

Re: What's the

scoop on Les Fehmi

I skimmed through the BST

file Pete uploaded. From

what I can tell, the BST

software provides feedback

in the form of sounds that

reflect some aspects of

the real-time activity of

the brain, and the brain

is hypothesized to

automatically correct

itself while listening to

the sounds, and the user

sits passively without

actively trying to change

anything (p. 9-11). To me,

that sounds closer to the

LENS approach than the TLC

approach (the TLC approach

being closer to

"traditional" methods of

neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for BST...well,

I've already written that

story several times, and

I'm

> tired of it. Of

course it "works" for some

people, and doesn't for

others.

> All NF does. But BST,

and certainly Mr. Gerdes,

are much more about

> marketing than about

brain training. I have

recently seen that they

are now

> calling what they do

(drum-roll)

> "High-resolution,

Relational,

Resonance-Based

Electroencephalic

Mirroring"

> or HIRREM (which

name, by the way, is

TRADEMARKED!! If you put

salt in a

> fancy container and

call it low-cal,

all-natural, gluten-free

NaCl

> flavoring, you'll

probably be able to sell

it for double the price to

at

> least some of the

market. And no matter what

you call it, it still adds

a

> salty taste to your

food, so many people will

like it--same as regular

salt

> in a simple package.

That's marketing. And if

you can get a few

> "celebrities" to

swear that they won't eat

a bite without it, well,

you'll

> sell even more.

>

> Anyone wants to read

the 18-page "article"

setting this forth, I've

uploaded

> it to in

the Files area

>

/files/

> Anyone who is

particularly interested

might wish to glance

through pp13-17,

> where they explain

the difference between

HIRREM (sorry, I can't

find the TM

> key on my keyboard)

and "regular"

neurofeedback.

>

> Let the buyer beware,

regardless of what he/she

is buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

>

http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305 433 3160

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve,

Inc.

--

Watch for all that

beauty reflecting from you and

sing a love song to your

existence.

Rumi

♥

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 9.0.920 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3979 - Release Date: 10/27/11 12:35:00

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you could be right, Shane. Please excuse me for addressing my last

email to you alone. It would be better to address it to the whole

group and ask that we move on from this subject. Sometimes this

group seems to get stuck on topics, as it seems with this one- in my

opinion. But as you suggested, I could just not read the emails on

this topic.

Sue

On 10/27/2011 10:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Dear Sue,

With all due respect, I'm here to learn from

others and to convey my own personal experiences

regarding NF. Sites like this chat group allow an

exchange of information that one simply can't get by

reading a textbook. I'm grateful to those individuals

who have posted their comments and have shown interest

in my personal experiences. But no one is obligated

to read my (or anyone else's) postings, Sue, so feel

free to skip over mine in the future.

However, Sue, I hope you DID take in what I said

about most BST centers offering free services to US

soldiers who served in a war zone and who are suffering

PTSD. We owe it to our soldiers and their families to

inform them of this. Let the soldiers decide for

themselves whether they want to pursue BST or not.

Thanks,

Shane

From: Sue Breazeale

<grams@...>

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

11:05 PM

Subject: Re:

....scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane,

as my mother used to say, " enough is enough",

o.k.?

how about we change the subject?

Sue

On 10/27/2011 9:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Thank you, ,

I'll have to ask Pete about

that. Pete didn't mention that to

me on the phone when I spoke to

him a few months ago. In fact,

Pete said he felt I'd be better

off staying with BST (not just for

myself, but for my 3 adult

children).

Shane

From:

Duncan <karenduncan@...>

Sent:

Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:57

PM

Subject: Re:

...scoop on Les

Fehmi

Shane~

It has been proven that

BST designs are EXACTLY

some of the old TLC

designs from years back.

If you benefited from the

BST training like you say

then the same intensity

with TLC training will do

even more for you since

the assessment one would

work with would be more

informative, not just the

one page (heads page) Lee

lifted from Pete's TLC

assessment after he took

Pete's training.

~

From: "Shane

" <tracyshane@...>

,

"mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>

Cc: tracyshane@...

Sent: Thursday,

October 27, 2011 10:44:26

PM

Subject:

....scoop on Les Fehmi.

Good information, .

(mercado 83),

That's

a good comment

you made

below.

I know

that Van

Deusen has

reservations

about Brain

State Training

because Les

Gerdes studied

under .

told me

over the phone

that Gerdes'

methods are

identical to

TLC's (please

correct me if

I'm wrong,

)--but I

know from

personal

experience

that BST is

NOT identical

to TLC

training

because, as

you comment

in your

posting, ,

BST is

absorbed

passively--it

does not take

active mental

concentration,

as does

traditional

NF. It is

also much

quicker than

NF.

And to

---you

yourself,

, said to

me, "...maybe

if you want to

get there

without doing

any work for

it..." or

words to that

effect. Well,

of course I

want to 'get

there' the

easiest

possible way,

, and of

course I want

to get there

as quickly as

possible! So

does

everybody.

People have

other things

to devote

their 'work'

time to--like

'work,' for

instance.

That doesn't

mean people

are lazy,

, it just

means that

they have

other

importance

things going

on and they

want to get on

with their

lives.

MY

PERSONAL

EXPERIENCE

WITH BST:

I've

personally

gone through

BST--8 days,

or 16

sessions, of

it--in January

2011. To be

frank, I just

plain

benefited from

BST beyond my

wildest

expectations.

I had given

up all hope of

a

transformation

in my life,

but BST

provided me

with just

that--a

transformation.

I now have a

sense of inner

calm and

self-confidence

that I've

never known

before, much

more than I

ever achieved

with

meditation

techniques.

And the

results I

achieved from

BST have been

permanent

because once

one achieves a

higher level

of

consciousness,

then all

decisions and

actions are

made from this

level and one

deals with

life with more

maturity.

Even my

husband has

noticed and

has even made

the

unsolicited

comment that I

seem

'different'

now--better--more

in charge of

my life--and,

believe me, my

husband has

NEVER said

anything like

that to me

before in the

30+ years

we've known

each other!

And when I

say 'never,' I

don't mean

'hardly

ever'--I mean

'NEVER.' My

husband's

surprise

comment

reflects what

Gerdes says

regarding many

who undergo

BST--"...they

just look so

much more

present." [the

word 'present'

in italics].

I urge

all NF

practitioners

to research

BST further.

I have no

reason to say

this to you,

except that

the results of

BST are often

so dramatic,

as they were

in my case.

Perhaps this

is because Les

Gerdes used

the brain wave

frequencies of

two Buddhist

monks to set

up his first

model, rather

than the

median of

brain wave

samples taken

throughout the

world (NF).

MY

CONVERSATION

WITH HERSHEL

TOOMIM:

I don't

know if one

can reach a

higher level

of

consciousness

through

traditional NF

techniques or

not, but can

one reach it

through NF in

just three

days?

I spoke

with Hershel

Toomim about

my experience

with BST for

over an hour

one day.

Hershel was a

true

professional,

and a good

listener--he

respected what

I told him

about my

experience

with BST, and

he accepted my

words on face

value--after

all, I had no

reason to lie

to him about

my experience,

and he

recognized

that. Hershel

asked me how

long it took

me to achieve

the profound

change I

experienced

with BST, and

I told him '3

days.' He

said, "Three

days!"

Hershel was

clearly

impressed, and

he told me he

was going to

explore BST

further. He

told me that

he was

positive that

he could

duplicate the

results of

BST. To my

sorrow,

Hershel, who I

believe was 94

years old when

I spoke to

him, passed

away shortly

after our

conversation.

I hope

other NF

practitioners

will pick up

Hershel's

torch and find

out how BST

works and

duplicate it

so that it can

become more

available to

the public. I

know that

Gerdes didn't

seek to have

BST

copyrighted

(or patented?

I forget

which) because

it would be

too easy for

others to

duplicate once

his secret was

out. A BST

practitioner

told me that

Gerdes felt

that BST had a

'5 year

window' before

others figured

it out.

Hershel

himself was so

positive that

he could

easily figure

it out

himself, but

unfortunately

he didn't live

long enough to

pursue it--so,

one of you out

there, please

pick up

Hershel's

torch. BST

works better

than

traditional

NF--I'm sure

of it. Read

about it

online; take

the

5-day/10-session

BST training

yourself;

watch the

youtube videos

of the

severely

involved child

receiving BST

in AZ; read

the

testimonials

of soldiers

suffering from

PTSD.

RE:

LES GERDES:

I have

no allegiance

to Les Gerdes

himself--in

fact, I fear

his

apparently-harsh

business

practices

might 'do BST

in'-- but I do

know that his

Brain State

Training

worked

extremely well

for me and for

others, and

that BST

doesn't

require dozens

or hundreds of

sessions to

achieve

desired

results as

does NF. And

children can

play with

their toys if

they want to,

while

undergoing

BST, rather

than be

coerced into

focusing on

the computer

screen

In his

book

"Limitless

You," Gerdes

explains that

he achieved

better results

from NF for

his PTSD than

he did with

other

treatments,

such as drugs

or

psychotherapy

(he was

attacked and

beaten by a

gang of kids

in San

Francisco);

but, Gerdes

said, NF just

didn't work

fast enough,

and he wanted

to get on with

his life.

THERE'S

NOTHING WRONG

WITH 'BEING A

GOOD

MARKETER.'

Van

Deusen

comments that

Les Gerdes is

a good

"marketer,"

and I suppose

Pete is right

about

that--but

Gerdes'

marketing

skills DO NOT

in any way

diminish the

genuine value

of BST as a

treatment.

Marketing was

Gerdes's forte

to begin with,

and he was

good at it--he

was a major

force behind

making Amazon.com the major force that it is

today. But

that's not an

argument

against the

true value of

BST.

RE:

LENS:

I

intend to take

further

sessions of

BST--but I,

too, wonder

whether I

might benefit

as much or

more from

LENS. From

what I've been

told, LENS

tends to be of

greatest

benefit to

those who have

undergone

recent severe

trauma, such

as a stroke.

I also read

somewhere--I

think in the

book "A

Symphony in

the Brain" by

Jim

Robbins--that

LENS has even

benefited dogs

that had been

emotionally

traumatized as

a result of

Hurricane

Katrina and

were left

abandoned.

These

traumatized

dogs, who had

started

snapping at

people in

their fear,

became calm

enough to be

adoptable

again.

In

other words,

with LENS, as

with BST, one

does not have

to be actively

engaged in the

process in

order to

benefit from

it. You can

even benefit

from BST if

you fall

asleep. I was

told during my

BST sessions

to simply to

imagine myself

relaxing in a

pleasant

surrounding.

I chose to

picture myself

on a blanket

on a beach in

Galveston TX,

where I lived

for 2 years.

There were a

couple of

other

visualization

things I was

asked to

follow for

BST, but that

was it. I

didn't have to

actively

concentrate on

anything, like

make a

submarine

going up and

down, or make

an airplane

fly, on the

computer

screen in

front of me.

STUDY

BEING

PERFORMED ON

BST:

I've

considered

trying

traditional

NF--which is

why I'm on

this site, to

learn more

about it--but,

based on what

I've read to

date on this

site, plus on

Les Gerdes'

book

"Limitless

You," plus on

testimonials

for BST that

I've read, it

sounds like

BST is much

faster than

traditional NF

and that it's

the most

cost-effective

way to go.

Another

point worth

mentioning:

The U. of Va.

is currently

conducting a

study on BST,

with the

support and

cooperation of

the US

Military, on

350 soldiers

suffering from

PTSD. The

reason that

the military

chose to

pursue this

study is that

they are

desperate to

find some

effective

means to deal

with PTSD of

their

returning

soldiers, and

testimonials

of soldiers

with PTSD who

have undergone

BST have been

impressive.

IMPT

FOR

NEUROFEEDBACK

PRACTITIONERS

TO KNOW:

SOLDIERS

SUFFERING FROM

PTSD CAN

RECEIVE BST

FOR FREE:

Which

brings to mind

something else

that NF

practitioners

need to know:

MOST, IF NOT

ALL, BRAIN

STATE TRAINING

CENTERS

THROUGHOUT THE

US, OFFER

SOLDIERS WHO

SERVED IN A

WAR ZONE and

who are now

experiencing

PTSD AS A

RESULT, BST

TREATMENT

WITHOUT

CHARGE. So if

you know of

any soldiers

suffering from

PTSD, whether

it be from

Viet Nam or

Iraq or

Afghanistan,

please call

Brain State

Technology's

AZ office for

more details.

Being

from a

military

family myself,

I care a lot

about our

soldiers--a

whole lot. If

you know ANY

soldier

suffering from

PTSD as a

result of

serving in a

war zone,

PLEASE pass

this

information on

to the soldier

or his family.

Professional

responsibility

calls for it.

I have

great respect

for all of you

NF

practitioners--you

deserve more

attention and

respect than

the medical

community

gives you.

Thank you for

all you've

done to help

people in

need.

Yours,

Shane

New

Hope PA

From:

mercado_83 <mercado_83@...>

To:

Sent:

Thursday,

October 27,

2011 2:19 PM

Subject:

Re: What's the

scoop on Les

Fehmi

I skimmed

through the

BST file Pete

uploaded. From

what I can

tell, the BST

software

provides

feedback in

the form of

sounds that

reflect some

aspects of the

real-time

activity of

the brain, and

the brain is

hypothesized

to

automatically

correct itself

while

listening to

the sounds,

and the user

sits passively

without

actively

trying to

change

anything (p.

9-11). To me,

that sounds

closer to the

LENS approach

than the TLC

approach (the

TLC approach

being closer

to

"traditional"

methods of

neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for

BST...well,

I've already

written that

story several

times, and I'm

> tired of

it. Of course

it "works" for

some people,

and doesn't

for others.

> All NF

does. But BST,

and certainly

Mr. Gerdes,

are much more

about

> marketing

than about

brain

training. I

have recently

seen that they

are now

> calling

what they do

(drum-roll)

>

"High-resolution,

Relational,

Resonance-Based

Electroencephalic

Mirroring"

> or HIRREM

(which name,

by the way, is

TRADEMARKED!!

If you put

salt in a

> fancy

container and

call it

low-cal,

all-natural,

gluten-free

NaCl

>

flavoring,

you'll

probably be

able to sell

it for double

the price to

at

> least

some of the

market. And no

matter what

you call it,

it still adds

a

> salty

taste to your

food, so many

people will

like it--same

as regular

salt

> in a

simple

package.

That's

marketing. And

if you can get

a few

>

"celebrities"

to swear that

they won't eat

a bite without

it, well,

you'll

> sell even

more.

>

> Anyone

wants to read

the 18-page

"article"

setting this

forth, I've

uploaded

> it to

in the Files

area

>

/files/

> Anyone

who is

particularly

interested

might wish to

glance through

pp13-17,

> where

they explain

the difference

between HIRREM

(sorry, I

can't find the

TM

> key on my

keyboard) and

"regular"

neurofeedback.

>

> Let the

buyer beware,

regardless of

what he/she is

buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van

Deusen

>

pvdtlc@...

>

http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305

433 3160

> BR 47

3346 6235

> The

Learning

Curve, Inc.

--

Watch

for all that

beauty

reflecting

from you and

sing a love

song to your

existence.

Rumi

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you could be right, Shane. Please excuse me for addressing my last

email to you alone. It would be better to address it to the whole

group and ask that we move on from this subject. Sometimes this

group seems to get stuck on topics, as it seems with this one- in my

opinion. But as you suggested, I could just not read the emails on

this topic.

Sue

On 10/27/2011 10:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Dear Sue,

With all due respect, I'm here to learn from

others and to convey my own personal experiences

regarding NF. Sites like this chat group allow an

exchange of information that one simply can't get by

reading a textbook. I'm grateful to those individuals

who have posted their comments and have shown interest

in my personal experiences. But no one is obligated

to read my (or anyone else's) postings, Sue, so feel

free to skip over mine in the future.

However, Sue, I hope you DID take in what I said

about most BST centers offering free services to US

soldiers who served in a war zone and who are suffering

PTSD. We owe it to our soldiers and their families to

inform them of this. Let the soldiers decide for

themselves whether they want to pursue BST or not.

Thanks,

Shane

From: Sue Breazeale

<grams@...>

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

11:05 PM

Subject: Re:

....scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane,

as my mother used to say, " enough is enough",

o.k.?

how about we change the subject?

Sue

On 10/27/2011 9:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Thank you, ,

I'll have to ask Pete about

that. Pete didn't mention that to

me on the phone when I spoke to

him a few months ago. In fact,

Pete said he felt I'd be better

off staying with BST (not just for

myself, but for my 3 adult

children).

Shane

From:

Duncan <karenduncan@...>

Sent:

Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:57

PM

Subject: Re:

...scoop on Les

Fehmi

Shane~

It has been proven that

BST designs are EXACTLY

some of the old TLC

designs from years back.

If you benefited from the

BST training like you say

then the same intensity

with TLC training will do

even more for you since

the assessment one would

work with would be more

informative, not just the

one page (heads page) Lee

lifted from Pete's TLC

assessment after he took

Pete's training.

~

From: "Shane

" <tracyshane@...>

,

"mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>

Cc: tracyshane@...

Sent: Thursday,

October 27, 2011 10:44:26

PM

Subject:

....scoop on Les Fehmi.

Good information, .

(mercado 83),

That's

a good comment

you made

below.

I know

that Van

Deusen has

reservations

about Brain

State Training

because Les

Gerdes studied

under .

told me

over the phone

that Gerdes'

methods are

identical to

TLC's (please

correct me if

I'm wrong,

)--but I

know from

personal

experience

that BST is

NOT identical

to TLC

training

because, as

you comment

in your

posting, ,

BST is

absorbed

passively--it

does not take

active mental

concentration,

as does

traditional

NF. It is

also much

quicker than

NF.

And to

---you

yourself,

, said to

me, "...maybe

if you want to

get there

without doing

any work for

it..." or

words to that

effect. Well,

of course I

want to 'get

there' the

easiest

possible way,

, and of

course I want

to get there

as quickly as

possible! So

does

everybody.

People have

other things

to devote

their 'work'

time to--like

'work,' for

instance.

That doesn't

mean people

are lazy,

, it just

means that

they have

other

importance

things going

on and they

want to get on

with their

lives.

MY

PERSONAL

EXPERIENCE

WITH BST:

I've

personally

gone through

BST--8 days,

or 16

sessions, of

it--in January

2011. To be

frank, I just

plain

benefited from

BST beyond my

wildest

expectations.

I had given

up all hope of

a

transformation

in my life,

but BST

provided me

with just

that--a

transformation.

I now have a

sense of inner

calm and

self-confidence

that I've

never known

before, much

more than I

ever achieved

with

meditation

techniques.

And the

results I

achieved from

BST have been

permanent

because once

one achieves a

higher level

of

consciousness,

then all

decisions and

actions are

made from this

level and one

deals with

life with more

maturity.

Even my

husband has

noticed and

has even made

the

unsolicited

comment that I

seem

'different'

now--better--more

in charge of

my life--and,

believe me, my

husband has

NEVER said

anything like

that to me

before in the

30+ years

we've known

each other!

And when I

say 'never,' I

don't mean

'hardly

ever'--I mean

'NEVER.' My

husband's

surprise

comment

reflects what

Gerdes says

regarding many

who undergo

BST--"...they

just look so

much more

present." [the

word 'present'

in italics].

I urge

all NF

practitioners

to research

BST further.

I have no

reason to say

this to you,

except that

the results of

BST are often

so dramatic,

as they were

in my case.

Perhaps this

is because Les

Gerdes used

the brain wave

frequencies of

two Buddhist

monks to set

up his first

model, rather

than the

median of

brain wave

samples taken

throughout the

world (NF).

MY

CONVERSATION

WITH HERSHEL

TOOMIM:

I don't

know if one

can reach a

higher level

of

consciousness

through

traditional NF

techniques or

not, but can

one reach it

through NF in

just three

days?

I spoke

with Hershel

Toomim about

my experience

with BST for

over an hour

one day.

Hershel was a

true

professional,

and a good

listener--he

respected what

I told him

about my

experience

with BST, and

he accepted my

words on face

value--after

all, I had no

reason to lie

to him about

my experience,

and he

recognized

that. Hershel

asked me how

long it took

me to achieve

the profound

change I

experienced

with BST, and

I told him '3

days.' He

said, "Three

days!"

Hershel was

clearly

impressed, and

he told me he

was going to

explore BST

further. He

told me that

he was

positive that

he could

duplicate the

results of

BST. To my

sorrow,

Hershel, who I

believe was 94

years old when

I spoke to

him, passed

away shortly

after our

conversation.

I hope

other NF

practitioners

will pick up

Hershel's

torch and find

out how BST

works and

duplicate it

so that it can

become more

available to

the public. I

know that

Gerdes didn't

seek to have

BST

copyrighted

(or patented?

I forget

which) because

it would be

too easy for

others to

duplicate once

his secret was

out. A BST

practitioner

told me that

Gerdes felt

that BST had a

'5 year

window' before

others figured

it out.

Hershel

himself was so

positive that

he could

easily figure

it out

himself, but

unfortunately

he didn't live

long enough to

pursue it--so,

one of you out

there, please

pick up

Hershel's

torch. BST

works better

than

traditional

NF--I'm sure

of it. Read

about it

online; take

the

5-day/10-session

BST training

yourself;

watch the

youtube videos

of the

severely

involved child

receiving BST

in AZ; read

the

testimonials

of soldiers

suffering from

PTSD.

RE:

LES GERDES:

I have

no allegiance

to Les Gerdes

himself--in

fact, I fear

his

apparently-harsh

business

practices

might 'do BST

in'-- but I do

know that his

Brain State

Training

worked

extremely well

for me and for

others, and

that BST

doesn't

require dozens

or hundreds of

sessions to

achieve

desired

results as

does NF. And

children can

play with

their toys if

they want to,

while

undergoing

BST, rather

than be

coerced into

focusing on

the computer

screen

In his

book

"Limitless

You," Gerdes

explains that

he achieved

better results

from NF for

his PTSD than

he did with

other

treatments,

such as drugs

or

psychotherapy

(he was

attacked and

beaten by a

gang of kids

in San

Francisco);

but, Gerdes

said, NF just

didn't work

fast enough,

and he wanted

to get on with

his life.

THERE'S

NOTHING WRONG

WITH 'BEING A

GOOD

MARKETER.'

Van

Deusen

comments that

Les Gerdes is

a good

"marketer,"

and I suppose

Pete is right

about

that--but

Gerdes'

marketing

skills DO NOT

in any way

diminish the

genuine value

of BST as a

treatment.

Marketing was

Gerdes's forte

to begin with,

and he was

good at it--he

was a major

force behind

making Amazon.com the major force that it is

today. But

that's not an

argument

against the

true value of

BST.

RE:

LENS:

I

intend to take

further

sessions of

BST--but I,

too, wonder

whether I

might benefit

as much or

more from

LENS. From

what I've been

told, LENS

tends to be of

greatest

benefit to

those who have

undergone

recent severe

trauma, such

as a stroke.

I also read

somewhere--I

think in the

book "A

Symphony in

the Brain" by

Jim

Robbins--that

LENS has even

benefited dogs

that had been

emotionally

traumatized as

a result of

Hurricane

Katrina and

were left

abandoned.

These

traumatized

dogs, who had

started

snapping at

people in

their fear,

became calm

enough to be

adoptable

again.

In

other words,

with LENS, as

with BST, one

does not have

to be actively

engaged in the

process in

order to

benefit from

it. You can

even benefit

from BST if

you fall

asleep. I was

told during my

BST sessions

to simply to

imagine myself

relaxing in a

pleasant

surrounding.

I chose to

picture myself

on a blanket

on a beach in

Galveston TX,

where I lived

for 2 years.

There were a

couple of

other

visualization

things I was

asked to

follow for

BST, but that

was it. I

didn't have to

actively

concentrate on

anything, like

make a

submarine

going up and

down, or make

an airplane

fly, on the

computer

screen in

front of me.

STUDY

BEING

PERFORMED ON

BST:

I've

considered

trying

traditional

NF--which is

why I'm on

this site, to

learn more

about it--but,

based on what

I've read to

date on this

site, plus on

Les Gerdes'

book

"Limitless

You," plus on

testimonials

for BST that

I've read, it

sounds like

BST is much

faster than

traditional NF

and that it's

the most

cost-effective

way to go.

Another

point worth

mentioning:

The U. of Va.

is currently

conducting a

study on BST,

with the

support and

cooperation of

the US

Military, on

350 soldiers

suffering from

PTSD. The

reason that

the military

chose to

pursue this

study is that

they are

desperate to

find some

effective

means to deal

with PTSD of

their

returning

soldiers, and

testimonials

of soldiers

with PTSD who

have undergone

BST have been

impressive.

IMPT

FOR

NEUROFEEDBACK

PRACTITIONERS

TO KNOW:

SOLDIERS

SUFFERING FROM

PTSD CAN

RECEIVE BST

FOR FREE:

Which

brings to mind

something else

that NF

practitioners

need to know:

MOST, IF NOT

ALL, BRAIN

STATE TRAINING

CENTERS

THROUGHOUT THE

US, OFFER

SOLDIERS WHO

SERVED IN A

WAR ZONE and

who are now

experiencing

PTSD AS A

RESULT, BST

TREATMENT

WITHOUT

CHARGE. So if

you know of

any soldiers

suffering from

PTSD, whether

it be from

Viet Nam or

Iraq or

Afghanistan,

please call

Brain State

Technology's

AZ office for

more details.

Being

from a

military

family myself,

I care a lot

about our

soldiers--a

whole lot. If

you know ANY

soldier

suffering from

PTSD as a

result of

serving in a

war zone,

PLEASE pass

this

information on

to the soldier

or his family.

Professional

responsibility

calls for it.

I have

great respect

for all of you

NF

practitioners--you

deserve more

attention and

respect than

the medical

community

gives you.

Thank you for

all you've

done to help

people in

need.

Yours,

Shane

New

Hope PA

From:

mercado_83 <mercado_83@...>

To:

Sent:

Thursday,

October 27,

2011 2:19 PM

Subject:

Re: What's the

scoop on Les

Fehmi

I skimmed

through the

BST file Pete

uploaded. From

what I can

tell, the BST

software

provides

feedback in

the form of

sounds that

reflect some

aspects of the

real-time

activity of

the brain, and

the brain is

hypothesized

to

automatically

correct itself

while

listening to

the sounds,

and the user

sits passively

without

actively

trying to

change

anything (p.

9-11). To me,

that sounds

closer to the

LENS approach

than the TLC

approach (the

TLC approach

being closer

to

"traditional"

methods of

neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for

BST...well,

I've already

written that

story several

times, and I'm

> tired of

it. Of course

it "works" for

some people,

and doesn't

for others.

> All NF

does. But BST,

and certainly

Mr. Gerdes,

are much more

about

> marketing

than about

brain

training. I

have recently

seen that they

are now

> calling

what they do

(drum-roll)

>

"High-resolution,

Relational,

Resonance-Based

Electroencephalic

Mirroring"

> or HIRREM

(which name,

by the way, is

TRADEMARKED!!

If you put

salt in a

> fancy

container and

call it

low-cal,

all-natural,

gluten-free

NaCl

>

flavoring,

you'll

probably be

able to sell

it for double

the price to

at

> least

some of the

market. And no

matter what

you call it,

it still adds

a

> salty

taste to your

food, so many

people will

like it--same

as regular

salt

> in a

simple

package.

That's

marketing. And

if you can get

a few

>

"celebrities"

to swear that

they won't eat

a bite without

it, well,

you'll

> sell even

more.

>

> Anyone

wants to read

the 18-page

"article"

setting this

forth, I've

uploaded

> it to

in the Files

area

>

/files/

> Anyone

who is

particularly

interested

might wish to

glance through

pp13-17,

> where

they explain

the difference

between HIRREM

(sorry, I

can't find the

TM

> key on my

keyboard) and

"regular"

neurofeedback.

>

> Let the

buyer beware,

regardless of

what he/she is

buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van

Deusen

>

pvdtlc@...

>

http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305

433 3160

> BR 47

3346 6235

> The

Learning

Curve, Inc.

--

Watch

for all that

beauty

reflecting

from you and

sing a love

song to your

existence.

Rumi

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Sue.It's not even clear to me what subject you are referring to. Could you please clarify? I left 'scoop on Les Fehmi' as the subject title for this posting because that seems to be the connection here, even though the topic has wandered away from Les Fehmi himself. By the way, Sue, as best as I can tell, I'm the only one on this site who has personally challenged Dr. Les Fehmi, directly to his face, his relentless insistence that his neurofeedback treatment at his Princeton Biofeedback Centre alone is not enough--that one must listen to his recordings 2 hours/day in order for his Open Focus technique to have serious positive results. That's an important piece of information for NF practitioners interested in Fehmi's

NF technique to know. From: Sue Breazeale <grams@...> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 12:57 AMSubject: Re: ...scoop on Les Fehmi

you could be right, Shane. Please excuse me for addressing my last

email to you alone. It would be better to address it to the whole

group and ask that we move on from this subject. Sometimes this

group seems to get stuck on topics, as it seems with this one- in my

opinion. But as you suggested, I could just not read the emails on

this topic.

Sue

On 10/27/2011 10:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Dear Sue,

With all due respect, I'm here to learn from

others and to convey my own personal experiences

regarding NF. Sites like this chat group allow an

exchange of information that one simply can't get by

reading a textbook. I'm grateful to those individuals

who have posted their comments and have shown interest

in my personal experiences. But no one is obligated

to read my (or anyone else's) postings, Sue, so feel

free to skip over mine in the future.

However, Sue, I hope you DID take in what I said

about most BST centers offering free services to US

soldiers who served in a war zone and who are suffering

PTSD. We owe it to our soldiers and their families to

inform them of this. Let the soldiers decide for

themselves whether they want to pursue BST or not.

Thanks,

Shane

From: Sue Breazeale

<grams@...>

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011

11:05 PM

Subject: Re:

....scoop on Les Fehmi

Shane,

as my mother used to say, " enough is enough",

o.k.?

how about we change the subject?

Sue

On 10/27/2011 9:01 PM, Shane wrote:

Thank you, ,

I'll have to ask Pete about

that. Pete didn't mention that to

me on the phone when I spoke to

him a few months ago. In fact,

Pete said he felt I'd be better

off staying with BST (not just for

myself, but for my 3 adult

children).

Shane

From:

Duncan <karenduncan@...>

Sent:

Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:57

PM

Subject: Re:

...scoop on Les

Fehmi

Shane~

It has been proven that

BST designs are EXACTLY

some of the old TLC

designs from years back.

If you benefited from the

BST training like you say

then the same intensity

with TLC training will do

even more for you since

the assessment one would

work with would be more

informative, not just the

one page (heads page) Lee

lifted from Pete's TLC

assessment after he took

Pete's training.

~

From: "Shane

" <tracyshane@...>

,

"mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>

Cc: tracyshane@...

Sent: Thursday,

October 27, 2011 10:44:26

PM

Subject:

....scoop on Les Fehmi.

Good information, .

(mercado 83),

That's

a good comment

you made

below.

I know

that Van

Deusen has

reservations

about Brain

State Training

because Les

Gerdes studied

under .

told me

over the phone

that Gerdes'

methods are

identical to

TLC's (please

correct me if

I'm wrong,

)--but I

know from

personal

experience

that BST is

NOT identical

to TLC

training

because, as

you comment

in your

posting, ,

BST is

absorbed

passively--it

does not take

active mental

concentration,

as does

traditional

NF. It is

also much

quicker than

NF.

And to

---you

yourself,

, said to

me, "...maybe

if you want to

get there

without doing

any work for

it..." or

words to that

effect. Well,

of course I

want to 'get

there' the

easiest

possible way,

, and of

course I want

to get there

as quickly as

possible! So

does

everybody.

People have

other things

to devote

their 'work'

time to--like

'work,' for

instance.

That doesn't

mean people

are lazy,

, it just

means that

they have

other

importance

things going

on and they

want to get on

with their

lives.

MY

PERSONAL

EXPERIENCE

WITH BST:

I've

personally

gone through

BST--8 days,

or 16

sessions, of

it--in January

2011. To be

frank, I just

plain

benefited from

BST beyond my

wildest

expectations.

I had given

up all hope of

a

transformation

in my life,

but BST

provided me

with just

that--a

transformation.

I now have a

sense of inner

calm and

self-confidence

that I've

never known

before, much

more than I

ever achieved

with

meditation

techniques.

And the

results I

achieved from

BST have been

permanent

because once

one achieves a

higher level

of

consciousness,

then all

decisions and

actions are

made from this

level and one

deals with

life with more

maturity.

Even my

husband has

noticed and

has even made

the

unsolicited

comment that I

seem

'different'

now--better--more

in charge of

my life--and,

believe me, my

husband has

NEVER said

anything like

that to me

before in the

30+ years

we've known

each other!

And when I

say 'never,' I

don't mean

'hardly

ever'--I mean

'NEVER.' My

husband's

surprise

comment

reflects what

Gerdes says

regarding many

who undergo

BST--"...they

just look so

much more

present." [the

word 'present'

in italics].

I urge

all NF

practitioners

to research

BST further.

I have no

reason to say

this to you,

except that

the results of

BST are often

so dramatic,

as they were

in my case.

Perhaps this

is because Les

Gerdes used

the brain wave

frequencies of

two Buddhist

monks to set

up his first

model, rather

than the

median of

brain wave

samples taken

throughout the

world (NF).

MY

CONVERSATION

WITH HERSHEL

TOOMIM:

I don't

know if one

can reach a

higher level

of

consciousness

through

traditional NF

techniques or

not, but can

one reach it

through NF in

just three

days?

I spoke

with Hershel

Toomim about

my experience

with BST for

over an hour

one day.

Hershel was a

true

professional,

and a good

listener--he

respected what

I told him

about my

experience

with BST, and

he accepted my

words on face

value--after

all, I had no

reason to lie

to him about

my experience,

and he

recognized

that. Hershel

asked me how

long it took

me to achieve

the profound

change I

experienced

with BST, and

I told him '3

days.' He

said, "Three

days!"

Hershel was

clearly

impressed, and

he told me he

was going to

explore BST

further. He

told me that

he was

positive that

he could

duplicate the

results of

BST. To my

sorrow,

Hershel, who I

believe was 94

years old when

I spoke to

him, passed

away shortly

after our

conversation.

I hope

other NF

practitioners

will pick up

Hershel's

torch and find

out how BST

works and

duplicate it

so that it can

become more

available to

the public. I

know that

Gerdes didn't

seek to have

BST

copyrighted

(or patented?

I forget

which) because

it would be

too easy for

others to

duplicate once

his secret was

out. A BST

practitioner

told me that

Gerdes felt

that BST had a

'5 year

window' before

others figured

it out.

Hershel

himself was so

positive that

he could

easily figure

it out

himself, but

unfortunately

he didn't live

long enough to

pursue it--so,

one of you out

there, please

pick up

Hershel's

torch. BST

works better

than

traditional

NF--I'm sure

of it. Read

about it

online; take

the

5-day/10-session

BST training

yourself;

watch the

youtube videos

of the

severely

involved child

receiving BST

in AZ; read

the

testimonials

of soldiers

suffering from

PTSD.

RE:

LES GERDES:

I have

no allegiance

to Les Gerdes

himself--in

fact, I fear

his

apparently-harsh

business

practices

might 'do BST

in'-- but I do

know that his

Brain State

Training

worked

extremely well

for me and for

others, and

that BST

doesn't

require dozens

or hundreds of

sessions to

achieve

desired

results as

does NF. And

children can

play with

their toys if

they want to,

while

undergoing

BST, rather

than be

coerced into

focusing on

the computer

screen

In his

book

"Limitless

You," Gerdes

explains that

he achieved

better results

from NF for

his PTSD than

he did with

other

treatments,

such as drugs

or

psychotherapy

(he was

attacked and

beaten by a

gang of kids

in San

Francisco);

but, Gerdes

said, NF just

didn't work

fast enough,

and he wanted

to get on with

his life.

THERE'S

NOTHING WRONG

WITH 'BEING A

GOOD

MARKETER.'

Van

Deusen

comments that

Les Gerdes is

a good

"marketer,"

and I suppose

Pete is right

about

that--but

Gerdes'

marketing

skills DO NOT

in any way

diminish the

genuine value

of BST as a

treatment.

Marketing was

Gerdes's forte

to begin with,

and he was

good at it--he

was a major

force behind

making Amazon.com the major force that it is

today. But

that's not an

argument

against the

true value of

BST.

RE:

LENS:

I

intend to take

further

sessions of

BST--but I,

too, wonder

whether I

might benefit

as much or

more from

LENS. From

what I've been

told, LENS

tends to be of

greatest

benefit to

those who have

undergone

recent severe

trauma, such

as a stroke.

I also read

somewhere--I

think in the

book "A

Symphony in

the Brain" by

Jim

Robbins--that

LENS has even

benefited dogs

that had been

emotionally

traumatized as

a result of

Hurricane

Katrina and

were left

abandoned.

These

traumatized

dogs, who had

started

snapping at

people in

their fear,

became calm

enough to be

adoptable

again.

In

other words,

with LENS, as

with BST, one

does not have

to be actively

engaged in the

process in

order to

benefit from

it. You can

even benefit

from BST if

you fall

asleep. I was

told during my

BST sessions

to simply to

imagine myself

relaxing in a

pleasant

surrounding.

I chose to

picture myself

on a blanket

on a beach in

Galveston TX,

where I lived

for 2 years.

There were a

couple of

other

visualization

things I was

asked to

follow for

BST, but that

was it. I

didn't have to

actively

concentrate on

anything, like

make a

submarine

going up and

down, or make

an airplane

fly, on the

computer

screen in

front of me.

STUDY

BEING

PERFORMED ON

BST:

I've

considered

trying

traditional

NF--which is

why I'm on

this site, to

learn more

about it--but,

based on what

I've read to

date on this

site, plus on

Les Gerdes'

book

"Limitless

You," plus on

testimonials

for BST that

I've read, it

sounds like

BST is much

faster than

traditional NF

and that it's

the most

cost-effective

way to go.

Another

point worth

mentioning:

The U. of Va.

is currently

conducting a

study on BST,

with the

support and

cooperation of

the US

Military, on

350 soldiers

suffering from

PTSD. The

reason that

the military

chose to

pursue this

study is that

they are

desperate to

find some

effective

means to deal

with PTSD of

their

returning

soldiers, and

testimonials

of soldiers

with PTSD who

have undergone

BST have been

impressive.

IMPT

FOR

NEUROFEEDBACK

PRACTITIONERS

TO KNOW:

SOLDIERS

SUFFERING FROM

PTSD CAN

RECEIVE BST

FOR FREE:

Which

brings to mind

something else

that NF

practitioners

need to know:

MOST, IF NOT

ALL, BRAIN

STATE TRAINING

CENTERS

THROUGHOUT THE

US, OFFER

SOLDIERS WHO

SERVED IN A

WAR ZONE and

who are now

experiencing

PTSD AS A

RESULT, BST

TREATMENT

WITHOUT

CHARGE. So if

you know of

any soldiers

suffering from

PTSD, whether

it be from

Viet Nam or

Iraq or

Afghanistan,

please call

Brain State

Technology's

AZ office for

more details.

Being

from a

military

family myself,

I care a lot

about our

soldiers--a

whole lot. If

you know ANY

soldier

suffering from

PTSD as a

result of

serving in a

war zone,

PLEASE pass

this

information on

to the soldier

or his family.

Professional

responsibility

calls for it.

I have

great respect

for all of you

NF

practitioners--you

deserve more

attention and

respect than

the medical

community

gives you.

Thank you for

all you've

done to help

people in

need.

Yours,

Shane

New

Hope PA

From:

mercado_83 <mercado_83@...>

To:

Sent:

Thursday,

October 27,

2011 2:19 PM

Subject:

Re: What's the

scoop on Les

Fehmi

I skimmed

through the

BST file Pete

uploaded. From

what I can

tell, the BST

software

provides

feedback in

the form of

sounds that

reflect some

aspects of the

real-time

activity of

the brain, and

the brain is

hypothesized

to

automatically

correct itself

while

listening to

the sounds,

and the user

sits passively

without

actively

trying to

change

anything (p.

9-11). To me,

that sounds

closer to the

LENS approach

than the TLC

approach (the

TLC approach

being closer

to

"traditional"

methods of

neurofeedback).

Chivers

> As for

BST...well,

I've already

written that

story several

times, and I'm

> tired of

it. Of course

it "works" for

some people,

and doesn't

for others.

> All NF

does. But BST,

and certainly

Mr. Gerdes,

are much more

about

> marketing

than about

brain

training. I

have recently

seen that they

are now

> calling

what they do

(drum-roll)

>

"High-resolution,

Relational,

Resonance-Based

Electroencephalic

Mirroring"

> or HIRREM

(which name,

by the way, is

TRADEMARKED!!

If you put

salt in a

> fancy

container and

call it

low-cal,

all-natural,

gluten-free

NaCl

>

flavoring,

you'll

probably be

able to sell

it for double

the price to

at

> least

some of the

market. And no

matter what

you call it,

it still adds

a

> salty

taste to your

food, so many

people will

like it--same

as regular

salt

> in a

simple

package.

That's

marketing. And

if you can get

a few

>

"celebrities"

to swear that

they won't eat

a bite without

it, well,

you'll

> sell even

more.

>

> Anyone

wants to read

the 18-page

"article"

setting this

forth, I've

uploaded

> it to

in the Files

area

>

/files/

> Anyone

who is

particularly

interested

might wish to

glance through

pp13-17,

> where

they explain

the difference

between HIRREM

(sorry, I

can't find the

TM

> key on my

keyboard) and

"regular"

neurofeedback.

>

> Let the

buyer beware,

regardless of

what he/she is

buying.

>

> Pete

>

> "

> --

> Van

Deusen

>

pvdtlc@...

>

http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 305

433 3160

> BR 47

3346 6235

> The

Learning

Curve, Inc.

--

Watch

for all that

beauty

reflecting

from you and

sing a love

song to your

existence.

Rumi

♥

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Shane~I think the point about Les Fehmi's work is being missed here. If you are interested in deeper work, consciousness and awareness then it is worth the commitment to the extra practice. Buddhist monks don't gain deeper awareness and enlightenment by watching more TV and reading extra Time magazines, they acquire it by spending more time committed to deeper meditative practices such as Les Fehmi's recommendations. It's about priorities.~Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: Shane <tracyshane@...>Sender: Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:09:21 +0100 (BST) < >Reply Subject: Re: ...scoop on Les Fehmi Sue.It's not even clear to me what subject you are referring to. Could you please clarify? I left 'scoop on Les Fehmi' as the subject title for this posting because that seems to be the connection here, even though the topic has wandered away from Les Fehmi himself. By the way, Sue, as best as I can tell, I'm the only one on this site who has personally challenged Dr. Les Fehmi, directly to his face, his relentless insistence that his neurofeedback treatment at his Princeton Biofeedback Centre alone is not enough--that one must listen to his recordings 2 hours/day in order for his Open Focus technique to have serious positive results. That's an important piece of information for NF practitioners interested in Fehmi'sNF technique to know. From: Sue Breazeale <grams@...> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 12:57 AMSubject: Re: ...scoop on Les Fehmi you could be right, Shane. Please excuse me for addressing my lastemail to you alone. It would be better to address it to the wholegroup and ask that we move on from this subject. Sometimes thisgroup seems to get stuck on topics, as it seems with this one- in myopinion. But as you suggested, I could just not read the emails onthis topic.SueOn 10/27/2011 10:01 PM, Shane wrote: Dear Sue,With all due respect, I'm here to learn fromothers and to convey my own personal experiencesregarding NF. Sites like this chat group allow anexchange of information that one simply can't get byreading a textbook. I'm grateful to those individualswho have posted their comments and have shown interestin my personal experiences. But no one is obligatedto read my (or anyone else's) postings, Sue, so feelfree to skip over mine in the future.However, Sue, I hope you DID take in what I saidabout most BST centers offering free services to USsoldiers who served in a war zone and who are sufferingPTSD. We owe it to our soldiers and their families toinform them of this. Let the soldiers decide forthemselves whether they want to pursue BST or not.Thanks,Shane From: Sue Breazeale<grams@...> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 201111:05 PMSubject: Re: ...scoop on Les Fehmi Shane,as my mother used to say, " enough is enough",o.k.?how about we change the subject?SueOn 10/27/2011 9:01 PM, Shane wrote: Thank you, ,I'll have to ask Pete aboutthat. Pete didn't mention that tome on the phone when I spoke tohim a few months ago. In fact,Pete said he felt I'd be betteroff staying with BST (not just formyself, but for my 3 adultchildren).Shane From: Duncan <karenduncan@...> Sent:Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:57PMSubject: Re: ...scoop on LesFehmi Shane~It has been proven thatBST designs are EXACTLYsome of the old TLCdesigns from years back. If you benefited from theBST training like you saythen the same intensitywith TLC training will doeven more for you sincethe assessment one wouldwork with would be moreinformative, not just theone page (heads page) Leelifted from Pete's TLCassessment after he tookPete's training. ~From: "Shane" <tracyshane@...> ,"mercado 83" <mercado_83@...>Cc: tracyshane@...Sent: Thursday,October 27, 2011 10:44:26PMSubject: ...scoop on Les Fehmi.Good information, . (mercado 83),That'sa good commentyou madebelow. I knowthat VanDeusen hasreservationsabout BrainState Trainingbecause LesGerdes studiedunder . told meover the phonethat Gerdes'methods areidentical toTLC's (pleasecorrect me ifI'm wrong,)--but Iknow frompersonalexperiencethat BST isNOT identicalto TLCtrainingbecause, asyou comment in yourposting, ,BST isabsorbedpassively--itdoes not takeactive mentalconcentration,as doestraditionalNF. It isalso muchquicker thanNF.And to---youyourself,, said tome, "...maybeif you want toget therewithout doingany work forit..." orwords to thateffect. Well,of course Iwant to 'getthere' theeasiestpossible way,, and ofcourse I wantto get thereas quickly aspossible! Sodoeseverybody. People haveother thingsto devotetheir 'work'time to--like'work,' forinstance. That doesn'tmean peopleare lazy,, it justmeans thatthey haveotherimportancethings goingon and theywant to get onwith theirlives.MYPERSONALEXPERIENCEWITH BST:I'vepersonallygone throughBST--8 days,or 16sessions, ofit--in January2011. To befrank, I justplainbenefited fromBST beyond mywildestexpectations. I had givenup all hope ofatransformationin my life,but BSTprovided mewith justthat--atransformation. I now have asense of innercalm andself-confidencethat I'venever knownbefore, muchmore than Iever achievedwithmeditationtechniques. And theresults Iachieved fromBST have beenpermanentbecause onceone achieves ahigher levelofconsciousness,then alldecisions andactions aremade from thislevel and onedeals withlife with morematurity. Even myhusband hasnoticed andhas even madetheunsolicitedcomment that Iseem'different'now--better--morein charge ofmy life--and,believe me, myhusband hasNEVER saidanything likethat to mebefore in the30+ yearswe've knowneach other! And when Isay 'never,' Idon't mean'hardlyever'--I mean'NEVER.' Myhusband'ssurprisecommentreflects whatGerdes saysregarding manywho undergoBST--"...theyjust look somuch morepresent." [theword 'present'in italics].I urgeall NFpractitionersto researchBST further. I have noreason to saythis to you,except thatthe results ofBST are oftenso dramatic,as they werein my case. Perhaps thisis because LesGerdes usedthe brain wavefrequencies oftwo Buddhistmonks to setup his firstmodel, ratherthan themedian ofbrain wavesamples takenthroughout theworld (NF).MYCONVERSATIONWITH HERSHELTOOMIM:I don'tknow if onecan reach ahigher levelofconsciousnessthroughtraditional NFtechniques ornot, but canone reach itthrough NF injust threedays? I spokewith HershelToomim aboutmy experiencewith BST forover an hourone day. Hershel was atrueprofessional,and a goodlistener--herespected whatI told himabout myexperiencewith BST, andhe accepted mywords on facevalue--afterall, I had noreason to lieto him aboutmy experience,and herecognizedthat. Hershelasked me howlong it tookme to achievethe profoundchange Iexperiencedwith BST, andI told him '3days.' Hesaid, "Threedays!" Hershel wasclearlyimpressed, andhe told me hewas going toexplore BSTfurther. Hetold me thathe waspositive thathe couldduplicate theresults ofBST. To mysorrow,Hershel, who Ibelieve was 94years old whenI spoke tohim, passedaway shortlyafter ourconversation. I hopeother NFpractitionerswill pick upHershel'storch and findout how BSTworks andduplicate itso that it canbecome moreavailable tothe public. Iknow thatGerdes didn'tseek to haveBSTcopyrighted(or patented? I forgetwhich) becauseit would betoo easy forothers toduplicate oncehis secret wasout. A BSTpractitionertold me thatGerdes feltthat BST had a'5 yearwindow' beforeothers figuredit out. Hershelhimself was sopositive thathe couldeasily figureit outhimself, butunfortunatelyhe didn't livelong enough topursue it--so,one of you outthere, pleasepick upHershel'storch. BSTworks betterthantraditionalNF--I'm sureof it. Readabout itonline; takethe5-day/10-sessionBST trainingyourself;watch theyoutube videosof theseverelyinvolved childreceiving BSTin AZ; readthetestimonialsof soldierssuffering fromPTSD.RE: LES GERDES:I haveno allegianceto Les Gerdeshimself--infact, I fearhisapparently-harshbusinesspracticesmight 'do BSTin'-- but I doknow that hisBrain StateTrainingworkedextremely wellfor me and forothers, andthat BSTdoesn'trequire dozensor hundreds ofsessions toachievedesiredresults asdoes NF. Andchildren canplay withtheir toys ifthey want to,whileundergoingBST, ratherthan becoerced intofocusing onthe computerscreen In hisbook"LimitlessYou," Gerdesexplains thathe achievedbetter resultsfrom NF forhis PTSD thanhe did withothertreatments,such as drugsorpsychotherapy(he wasattacked andbeaten by agang of kidsin SanFrancisco);but, Gerdessaid, NF justdidn't workfast enough,and he wantedto get on withhis life. THERE'SNOTHING WRONGWITH 'BEING AGOODMARKETER.' VanDeusencomments thatLes Gerdes isa good"marketer,"and I supposePete is rightaboutthat--butGerdes'marketingskills DO NOTin any waydiminish thegenuine valueof BST as atreatment. Marketing wasGerdes's forteto begin with,and he wasgood at it--hewas a majorforce behindmaking Amazon.com the major force that it istoday. Butthat's not anargumentagainst thetrue value ofBST.RE: LENS:Iintend to takefurthersessions ofBST--but I,too, wonderwhether Imight benefitas much ormore fromLENS. Fromwhat I've beentold, LENStends to be ofgreatestbenefit tothose who haveundergonerecent severetrauma, suchas a stroke. I also readsomewhere--Ithink in thebook "ASymphony inthe Brain" byJimRobbins--thatLENS has evenbenefited dogsthat had beenemotionallytraumatized asa result ofHurricaneKatrina andwere leftabandoned. Thesetraumatizeddogs, who hadstartedsnapping atpeople intheir fear,became calmenough to beadoptableagain.Inother words,with LENS, aswith BST, onedoes not haveto be activelyengaged in theprocess inorder tobenefit fromit. You caneven benefitfrom BST ifyou fallasleep. I wastold during myBST sessionsto simply toimagine myselfrelaxing in apleasantsurrounding. I chose topicture myselfon a blanketon a beach inGalveston TX,where I livedfor 2 years. There were acouple ofothervisualizationthings I wasasked tofollow forBST, but thatwas it. Ididn't have toactivelyconcentrate onanything, likemake asubmarinegoing up anddown, or makean airplanefly, on thecomputerscreen infront of me.STUDYBEINGPERFORMED ONBST:I'veconsideredtryingtraditionalNF--which iswhy I'm onthis site, tolearn moreabout it--but,based on whatI've read todate on thissite, plus onLes Gerdes'book"LimitlessYou," plus ontestimonialsfor BST thatI've read, itsounds likeBST is muchfaster thantraditional NFand that it'sthe mostcost-effectiveway to go.Anotherpoint worthmentioning: The U. of Va.is currentlyconducting astudy on BST,with thesupport andcooperation ofthe USMilitary, on350 soldierssuffering fromPTSD. Thereason thatthe militarychose topursue thisstudy is thatthey aredesperate tofind someeffectivemeans to dealwith PTSD oftheirreturningsoldiers, andtestimonialsof soldierswith PTSD whohave undergoneBST have beenimpressive. IMPTFORNEUROFEEDBACKPRACTITIONERSTO KNOW: SOLDIERSSUFFERING FROMPTSD CANRECEIVE BSTFOR FREE:Whichbrings to mindsomething elsethat NFpractitionersneed to know: MOST, IF NOTALL, BRAINSTATE TRAININGCENTERSTHROUGHOUT THEUS, OFFERSOLDIERS WHOSERVED IN AWAR ZONE andwho are nowexperiencingPTSD AS ARESULT, BSTTREATMENT WITHOUTCHARGE. So ifyou know ofany soldierssuffering fromPTSD, whetherit be fromViet Nam orIraq orAfghanistan,please callBrain StateTechnology'sAZ office formore details.Beingfrom amilitaryfamily myself,I care a lotabout oursoldiers--awhole lot. Ifyou know ANYsoldiersuffering fromPTSD as aresult ofserving in awar zone,PLEASE passthisinformation onto the soldieror his family. Professionalresponsibilitycalls for it.I havegreat respectfor all of youNFpractitioners--youdeserve moreattention andrespect thanthe medicalcommunitygives you. Thank you forall you'vedone to helppeople inneed.Yours,ShaneNewHope PA From:mercado_83 <mercado_83@...>Sent:Thursday,October 27,2011 2:19 PMSubject: Re: What's thescoop on LesFehmi I skimmedthrough theBST file Peteuploaded. Fromwhat I cantell, the BSTsoftwareprovidesfeedback inthe form ofsounds thatreflect someaspects of thereal-timeactivity ofthe brain, andthe brain ishypothesizedtoautomaticallycorrect itselfwhilelistening tothe sounds,and the usersits passivelywithoutactivelytrying tochangeanything (p.9-11). To me,that soundscloser to theLENS approachthan the TLCapproach (theTLC approachbeing closerto"traditional"methods ofneurofeedback). Chivers> As forBST...well,I've alreadywritten thatstory severaltimes, and I'm> tired ofit. Of courseit "works" forsome people,and doesn'tfor others.> All NFdoes. But BST,and certainlyMr. Gerdes,are much moreabout> marketingthan aboutbraintraining. Ihave recentlyseen that theyare now> callingwhat they do(drum-roll)>"High-resolution,Relational,Resonance-BasedElectroencephalicMirroring"> or HIRREM(which name,by the way, isTRADEMARKED!!If you putsalt in a> fancycontainer andcall itlow-cal,all-natural,gluten-freeNaCl>flavoring,you'llprobably beable to sellit for doublethe price toat> leastsome of themarket. And nomatter whatyou call it,it still addsa> saltytaste to yourfood, so manypeople willlike it--sameas regularsalt> in asimplepackage.That'smarketing. Andif you can geta few>"celebrities"to swear thatthey won't eata bite withoutit, well,you'll> sell evenmore.> > Anyonewants to readthe 18-page"article"setting thisforth, I'veuploaded> it toin the Filesarea>/files/> Anyonewho isparticularlyinterestedmight wish toglance throughpp13-17,> wherethey explainthe differencebetween HIRREM(sorry, Ican't find theTM> key on mykeyboard) and"regular"neurofeedback.> > Let thebuyer beware,regardless ofwhat he/she isbuying.> > Pete> > "> --> VanDeusen>pvdtlc@...>http://www.brain-trainer.com> USA 305433 3160> BR 473346 6235> TheLearningCurve, Inc.-- Watchfor all thatbeautyreflectingfrom you andsing a lovesong to yourexistence. Rumi♥

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