Re: Customized Formula option in some Neurofeedback Software

[Guest guest]

I'm guessing " EEG1 " is CH1, and " EEG2 " is CH2.

Here is guess my as to what some of your examples could be used for:

1) EEG1+EEG2 - Sum of two channels. For example, if you're training beta at C3

in CH1, and SMR at C4 in CH2, then you could add the two amplitudes together and

reward based on one number. Or the sum of alpha amplitudes in two channel

training (P3 & P4 or P4 & OZ).

2) EEG1 - Amplitude of one channel, should be obvious

3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2 - Trains the ratio between CH1 and CH2, in a more

complicated formula

4) EEG1/EEG2 - Trains the ratio between CH1 and CH2, in a simpler formula.

Could be used to train either a beta or alpha asymmetry at F3/F4.

>

> Does anyone here use a customized formula feature on their Neurofeedback

software? I'm wondering what that's used for?

>

> For instance, there's an option on my software that allows you to type in

formulas such as the following examples:

> 1) EEG1+EEG2

> 2) EEG1

> 3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2

> 4) EEG1/EEG2

>

> With my software, there's a list of training options that I can choose from

(amplitude, custom, coherence, ect.). When I highlight " custom " , I can then

type in formulas from which to train from. Is there a complete list somewhere

of all the commonly used formulas available? I'm wondering what each of these

are used for or what they mean?

>

> I've tried searching for info. on this with no luck. You guys (thanks to Pete

in particular) were very helpful in answering my questions in regards to some of

the earlier questions I've had so I'm posting this to see if someone has any

answers to this basic but hard to find info.

>

> Adam

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks.

The EEG1 and EEG2 I can see through testing these out with my software, refer to channels (seems obvious but I just had to doublecheck to make sure it wasn't referring to the active and reference leads contained within 1 channel).

Why the simpler (EEG1/EEG2 ) vs. more complicated formula (EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2) to do ratio training do you think?

Also I was able to find 1 more example that I haven't mentioned yet:

5) EEG1+EEG2/2 (is this another type of ratio formula?)

If anyone can think of any more formulas I'd appreciate it,

Adam

From: mercado_83 <mercado_83@...>Subject: Re: Customized Formula option in some Neurofeedback Software Date: Monday, January 9, 2012, 2:44 AM

I'm guessing "EEG1" is CH1, and "EEG2" is CH2.Here is guess my as to what some of your examples could be used for:1) EEG1+EEG2 - Sum of two channels. For example, if you're training beta at C3 in CH1, and SMR at C4 in CH2, then you could add the two amplitudes together and reward based on one number. Or the sum of alpha amplitudes in two channel training (P3 & P4 or P4 & OZ).2) EEG1 - Amplitude of one channel, should be obvious3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2 - Trains the ratio between CH1 and CH2, in a more complicated formula4) EEG1/EEG2 - Trains the ratio between CH1 and CH2, in a simpler formula. Could be used to train either a beta or alpha asymmetry at F3/F4.>> Does anyone here use a customized formula feature on their Neurofeedback software? I'm wondering what that's used for?> > For instance, there's an option on my software that allows you to type in formulas such as the following examples:> 1) EEG1+EEG2> 2) EEG1> 3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2> 4) EEG1/EEG2> > With my software, there's a list of training options that I can choose from (amplitude, custom, coherence, ect.). When I highlight "custom", I can then type in formulas from which to train from. Is there a complete list somewhere of all the commonly used formulas available? I'm wondering what each of these are used for or what they mean? > > I've tried searching for info. on this with no luck. You guys (thanks to Pete in particular) were very helpful in answering my questions in regards to some of the earlier questions I've had so I'm posting this to see if someone

has any answers to this basic but hard to find info.> > Adam>

[Guest guest]

BioExplorer (and most other NF software) has the ability to do all of these things and many more.Many of the 2C designs in the TLC Design package sum the channels.  There is also a Sum Difference design that allows you to select (by clicking a button) specific bands (based on an assessment) to reduce the sum of the two channels (improve control) while at the same time decreasing the difference (asymmetry) between the channels in the same or different frequency bands.  The 2C Alpha beta symmetry designs train to adjust the relationship between alpha right and left hemispheres and at the same time beta left and right hemispheres.

Etc.None of it is particularly valuable if you are just dancing around testing this and testing that--i.e. if you have no basis for deciding what and where to train to achieve your training goals.  But with an assessment and training plan they give you most any option you need...without having to figure out the guts of the software.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Adam <admcgove1993@...> wrote:

 

Does anyone here use a customized formula feature on their Neurofeedback software? I'm wondering what that's used for?  For instance, there's an option on my software that allows you to type in formulas such as the following examples:

1) EEG1+EEG2

2) EEG1

3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2

4) EEG1/EEG2

With my software, there's a list of training options that I can choose from (amplitude, custom, coherence, ect.). When I highlight " custom " , I can then type in formulas from which to train from. Is there a complete list somewhere of all the commonly used formulas available? I'm wondering what each of these are used for or what they mean?

I've tried searching for info. on this with no luck. You guys (thanks to Pete in particular) were very helpful in answering my questions in regards to some of the earlier questions I've had so I'm posting this to see if someone has any answers to this basic but hard to find info.

Adam

[Guest guest]

Yes. Bioexplorer software is very versatile and is a great software to have and

has a lot of options. For now, I have to work with what I've got but additions

are a possibility (finances allowing) especially as the Bioexplorer works with

so many different types of amplifiers including the nirHEG pendant which I plan

as an addition in the future when I'm able.

Formulas:

1) I have looked at Bioexplorer to see what I could learn and see it has an

" expression evaluator " feature similar to the " custom formula " feature on my

software. Is there a list of formulas for the " expression evaluator " somewhere

that I could look at to see what each does? (if there's an area somewhere that

lists everything out, hopefully if someone were to point this out, it would not

only help myself but hopefully other Bioexplorer users too) So far I can find

no where that points out how to interpret these various formulas. At this

point, I can see that " EEG1+EEG2 " obvioisly is sum training while " EEG1-EEG2 "

must train asymmetry but would like to know what the rest of it means.

2) If you were to input " sum difference " training into the " Expression

evaluator " what would the formula be? What would the alpha/beta symmetry look

like?

Appreciate the help,

Adam

I have all the protocols written into the software based off of criteria given

to me by QEEG reports. The TLC is very interesting though as it's an assessment

that can be recorded at home and sent out to get the results back to check on

progress more frequently. While I only have a 2 channel amplifier, it'd be

interesting to have something like this to monitor progress on a more frequent

basis. As far as training protocols go, those are already decided. I'm just

trying to see what I can learn.

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Does anyone here use a customized formula feature on their Neurofeedback

> > software? I'm wondering what that's used for? For instance, there's an

> > option on my software that allows you to type in formulas such as the

> > following examples:

> > 1) EEG1+EEG2

> > 2) EEG1

> > 3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2

> > 4) EEG1/EEG2

> >

> > With my software, there's a list of training options that I can choose

> > from (amplitude, custom, coherence, ect.). When I highlight " custom " , I can

> > then type in formulas from which to train from. Is there a complete list

> > somewhere of all the commonly used formulas available? I'm wondering what

> > each of these are used for or what they mean?

> >

> > I've tried searching for info. on this with no luck. You guys (thanks to

> > Pete in particular) were very helpful in answering my questions in regards

> > to some of the earlier questions I've had so I'm posting this to see if

> > someone has any answers to this basic but hard to find info.

> >

> > Adam

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes. Bioexplorer software is very versatile and is a great software to have and

has a lot of options. For now, I have to work with what I've got but additions

are a possibility (finances allowing) especially as the Bioexplorer works with

so many different types of amplifiers including the nirHEG pendant which I plan

as an addition in the future when I'm able.

Formulas:

1) I have looked at Bioexplorer to see what I could learn and see it has an

" expression evaluator " feature similar to the " custom formula " feature on my

software. Is there a list of formulas for the " expression evaluator " somewhere

that I could look at to see what each does? (if there's an area somewhere that

lists everything out, hopefully if someone were to point this out, it would not

only help myself but hopefully other Bioexplorer users too) So far I can find

no where that points out how to interpret these various formulas. At this

point, I can see that " EEG1+EEG2 " obvioisly is sum training while " EEG1-EEG2 "

must train asymmetry but would like to know what the rest of it means.

2) If you were to input " sum difference " training into the " Expression

evaluator " what would the formula be? What would the alpha/beta symmetry look

like?

Appreciate the help,

Adam

I have all the protocols written into the software based off of criteria given

to me by QEEG reports. The TLC is very interesting though as it's an assessment

that can be recorded at home and sent out to get the results back to check on

progress more frequently. While I only have a 2 channel amplifier, it'd be

interesting to have something like this to monitor progress on a more frequent

basis. As far as training protocols go, those are already decided. I'm just

trying to see what I can learn.

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Does anyone here use a customized formula feature on their Neurofeedback

> > software? I'm wondering what that's used for? For instance, there's an

> > option on my software that allows you to type in formulas such as the

> > following examples:

> > 1) EEG1+EEG2

> > 2) EEG1

> > 3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2

> > 4) EEG1/EEG2

> >

> > With my software, there's a list of training options that I can choose

> > from (amplitude, custom, coherence, ect.). When I highlight " custom " , I can

> > then type in formulas from which to train from. Is there a complete list

> > somewhere of all the commonly used formulas available? I'm wondering what

> > each of these are used for or what they mean?

> >

> > I've tried searching for info. on this with no luck. You guys (thanks to

> > Pete in particular) were very helpful in answering my questions in regards

> > to some of the earlier questions I've had so I'm posting this to see if

> > someone has any answers to this basic but hard to find info.

> >

> > Adam

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Adam,

I am not aware of any place that has a list of formulas to be used in

BIoExplorer. If you look at the help files you will find a list of all the

different expressions that can be used and some examples. I think most of us

who have created designs created our own formulas based on information we have

seen in research, or examples of other protocols. Alpha asymmetry for example

has a lot of research behind it and the formula is easy to find.

If you have specific ideas in mind for this it might be more helpful to explain

what you want to accomplish and ask for suggestions. You will likely get many

responses.

On Jan 14, 2012, at 7:22 PM, Adam wrote:

> Yes. Bioexplorer software is very versatile and is a great software to have

and has a lot of options. For now, I have to work with what I've got but

additions are a possibility (finances allowing) especially as the Bioexplorer

works with so many different types of amplifiers including the nirHEG pendant

which I plan as an addition in the future when I'm able.

>

>

> Formulas:

> 1) I have looked at Bioexplorer to see what I could learn and see it has an

" expression evaluator " feature similar to the " custom formula " feature on my

software. Is there a list of formulas for the " expression evaluator " somewhere

that I could look at to see what each does? (if there's an area somewhere that

lists everything out, hopefully if someone were to point this out, it would not

only help myself but hopefully other Bioexplorer users too) So far I can find

no where that points out how to interpret these various formulas. At this

point, I can see that " EEG1+EEG2 " obvioisly is sum training while " EEG1-EEG2 "

must train asymmetry but would like to know what the rest of it means.

>

> 2) If you were to input " sum difference " training into the " Expression

evaluator " what would the formula be? What would the alpha/beta symmetry look

like?

>

>

> Appreciate the help,

>

> Adam

>

>

> I have all the protocols written into the software based off of criteria given

to me by QEEG reports. The TLC is very interesting though as it's an assessment

that can be recorded at home and sent out to get the results back to check on

progress more frequently. While I only have a 2 channel amplifier, it'd be

interesting to have something like this to monitor progress on a more frequent

basis. As far as training protocols go, those are already decided. I'm just

trying to see what I can learn.

>

>

>>

>>> **

>>>

>>>

>>> Does anyone here use a customized formula feature on their Neurofeedback

>>> software? I'm wondering what that's used for? For instance, there's an

>>> option on my software that allows you to type in formulas such as the

>>> following examples:

>>> 1) EEG1+EEG2

>>> 2) EEG1

>>> 3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2

>>> 4) EEG1/EEG2

>>>

>>> With my software, there's a list of training options that I can choose

>>> from (amplitude, custom, coherence, ect.). When I highlight " custom " , I can

>>> then type in formulas from which to train from. Is there a complete list

>>> somewhere of all the commonly used formulas available? I'm wondering what

>>> each of these are used for or what they mean?

>>>

>>> I've tried searching for info. on this with no luck. You guys (thanks to

>>> Pete in particular) were very helpful in answering my questions in regards

>>> to some of the earlier questions I've had so I'm posting this to see if

>>> someone has any answers to this basic but hard to find info.

>>>

>>> Adam

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello, I already have the training protocols written out for me to follow. I am a home-user so was just interested in learning a bit when I have the time to.

Within the past week, I did manage to figure out the formulas though. I just peiced together various bits of info. I could find and then did some thinking on it myself and managed to figure it out for the most part I think. For any other home users out there, I can paste some of my notes below (I think I have things down accurate but if not feel free to doublecheck on something):

Why "sum" as well as "difference" training are sensitive to both the UV (UV of EEG1 compared to UV of EEG2) and phase (timing of UV within a certain frequency for EEG1 compared to EEG2) of any signal shared between 2 sites: 1) EEG1+EEG2=Common Mode Gain (seen in Sum EEG wave)Sum Wave:The SUM Wave (showcases UV occuring "in-phase")=ratio of "common mode gain":"difference". This isn't a display of the actual ratio but moreso 1 aspect being monitored while the other aspect is rejected; as a result, the Common Mode Gain=sum wave (the difference Gain should not be present in the resulting EEG wave).

How large resulting sum wave display will be:If Both Signals UV is large (add together?) and "in-phase" will reinforce in the "sum wave" (and cancel out in "difference wave")

Training Sum Wave:Common mode gain (sum wave)=UV (for a particular frequency of both channels)"in phase" to one another ("in phase" uv for particular frequency=synchrony). Uptraining the sum wave will increase "in-phase" UV (in other words synchrony) for the designated frequency band "component" one wishes to train as well as a decrease in "phase angle"; this training seems to encourage both channels (as formula dictates this is a combined 2 channel protocol as opposed to seperate 2 channel protocol) to be in the same frequency and phase as you max the amplitude. Downtraining the sum wave will decrease "in-phase" (decrease "synchrony" and maybe causing desynchrony indirectly?) UV and increase the "phase angle".

Threshold:When the designated frequency band component is above the uv threshold, for my amplifier, the color turns red (when uptraining, I'm rewarded for bringing it above the threshold setting while when downtraining I'm rewarded for keeping it below the threshold setting). The reason it's sometimes a negative number is for example if got a value like 10-15=-5 (blue if exceeds threshold) or 15-10=5 (red if exceeds threshold)

2) EEG1-EEG2=Difference Signal (common mode rejected leaving only differential gain); benefit of this over bipolar is using a "referential montage" as opposed to "bipolar montage"; as a result, the separate EEG waves may be displayed in the "EEG diagram" as well as the "differential wave" Difference Wave:Resulting EEG wave will be "differential gain"/"common mode gain"="difference wave" (this also definition of common mode rejection; combined 2 channel formula of "EEG1-EEG2" what causes this rejection). The "Difference Gain" will display on the EEG display while the "Common Mode Gain" will be absent.

How large resulting "difference wave" display will be:The more both EEG signals are alike output is low; the more both signals are different output is high.

Training Difference Wave:Difference Wave=Uv (for particular frequency of both channels) "out-phase" with one another (out of phase UV for a particular frequency=desynchrony)

Uptraining the "difference wave" will increase "out-phase" UV (causing desynchrony between the 2 EEG sites which results in dropping the UV for that particular frequency for both EEG channels) as well as causing an increase in "phase angle"; this training seems to encourage both channels to be less alike (frequncy and phase becoming less alike) in order to encourage brain regions to act independent (increasing the difference seems to be connected to increasing the brain's stability). Downtraining a "component" derived from a "difference wave" will decrease "out-phase" uv (since training is still derived from a "difference wave" as opposed to a "sum wave", there still will be a drop in UV but this will have indirect effect on increasing synchronization; for more "direct" effect on "synchronization" would use "sum wave" training instead) and a "phase angle" decrease.

Threshold:On my amplifier, the bandwidth "component" turns red when positively above threshold setting and blue when negatively above threshold setting (when uptraining, there's a reward when bandwidth exceeds threshold setting and turns either red or blue while when downtraining want to keep bandwidth below threshold setting where it'll just be a grey color)

3) Sum: Difference training-Sum Wave (1 combined channel to create sum wave) and difference wave (another combined channel to create difference wave); set-up requires ability of amplifier to do 2 separate channel's at once I found a diagram of how the 2 channels are separated for this in a .pdf doc. entitled "Basic 2-channel EEG Training Protocols" (it depicts channel 1 as being the sum and channel 2 as being the difference in the diagram but probably could vary by amplifier type I'm guessing)

A) Reinforced Difference Training (derived from http://www.eeginfo.com/newsletter/?p=293): Place high and low inhibits on EEG channel assigned to sum wave; place high and low inhibits on EEG channel assigned to difference wave". Also 1 reward placed on difference wave. Uptraining or downtraining would have similar effect to that of Bipolar. The benefits are that it uses a "referential montage" (so can see actual eeg signals besides the difference and sum waves), may be a bit cleaner form of training, and also allows to place inhibits on sum if choose to maximize bipolar training even moreso (not sure if this is always a good idea as placing inhibits on the sum is a stronger form of desynchrony training; seems to be used moreso in cases of very high synchrony where bad side effects less likely?)

Reinforced Sum Training? (Possibly protocol where lo and hi inhibits placed on both difference as well as sum wave with a reward on sum wave but not sure)

4) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2=sum/difference=uv that's "phase-out" (for a particular Hz range)/uv that's phase-in (for a particular Hz)=desynchrony/synchrony=uv phase contrast (contrast means asymmetry)"

Synchrony is UV that occurs "in-phase" for a particular frequency (low phase angle); desynchrony is UV that occurs more "out-phase" (high phase angle) for a particular frequency

Training:Uptraining could increase overall uv phase asymmetry and decrease overall uv phase symmetry for a particular frequency???

Downtraining could decrease overall phase asymmetry (When desynch./synch.=higher contrast, can be seen as uv phase being more asymmetrical) and increase overall phase symmetry (When desynchrony/synchrony=less contrast, uv phase can be more symmetrical) for a particular frequency???

Threshold:On my amplifier, when "uv phase contrast" is positively above the threshold setting by a certain amount it turns red while when negatively above threshold setting by a certain amount it turns blue (when uptraining want band to exceed threshold so that blue or red colors will appear; when downtraining want to keep below threshold so that just an even grey color)

Miscellaneous:The above asymmetry formula seems to be the one that's used on neuroguide except with the following difference:EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2*200

I'm guessing multiplying by 200 must be to just to scale the actual answer up for illustration sake when comparing the raw values to the neuroguide database but I could be wrong on this.

5) 2 Channel Combined UV Asymmetry Protocol: EEG1/EEG2=uv channel 1 (for particular HZ)/UV channel 2 (for particular HZ)=UV Contrast (asymmetry)

This simpler formula leaves out "phase" aspect of the asymmetry formula above. Your just dealing with contrast between 2 separate amplitudes for 2 separate channels as opposed to the amplitudes derived from a difference wave (common mode rejected) divided by a sum wave (common mode gain), which is why the phase aspect is left out.

Training (like asymmetry formula above, when doing asymmetry training it seems that one is always supposed to have the same frequency for channel 1 as for channel 2 but could be wrong on this):Uptrain to increase UV asymmetry and decrease UV Symmetry indirectly???Downtrain to decrease UV asymmetry and increase UV symmetry indirectly???

6) A 2 channel "separate" UV asymmetry protocol (similar to protocol right above but not combining the 2 channels):Diagram at "Basic 2-channel EEG Training Protocols" by Dr. Collura pdf file shows this as just

Only notable difference to protocol above (eeg1/eeg2) is that this is basic 2 channel amplitude training where just simply setting threshold easier for 1 bandwidth (for example SMR channel 1) vs. the threshold for the other bandwidth (SMR channel 2 with less % reward)

7) Mean Frequency TrainingEEG1+EEG2/2=mean uv=mean frequencyFor this equation one gets the mean UV as applied to the "common mode" (eeg1+eeg2=sum wave; the common gain shown in this wave depicts in-phase UV within a particular bandwidth, for both channels, that has a low phase angle in relation to eachother meaning that it's synchronous); therefore, by dividing by 2, this reflects the mean in-phase UV for a particular frequency (therefore, in other words mean in-phase frequency)

Training:Unlike basic Asymmetry formula (for ex. eeg1/eeg2), this seems to be a direct form of "symmetry" training instead (as mentioned in above asymmetry training methods, one can increase symmetry indirectly by downtraining asymmetry; however, "mean frequency training" is a more direct way to go about this). You're training towards an average between the 2 frequencies obtain symmetry.

Example: SMR UV Channel 1+SMR UV Channel 2/2=mean UV between both channels (this equals mean frequency since the "mean uv" is referring to that of the SMR frequency). Uptraining will cause it to Symettry to increase directly between the 2 sites. Downtraining will cause symettry to decrease between the 2 sites (causing asymmetry indirectly?).

> >> > >>> **> >>> > >>> > >>> Does anyone here use a customized formula feature on their Neurofeedback> >>> software? I'm wondering what that's used for? For instance, there's an> >>> option on my software that allows you to type in formulas such as the> >>> following examples:> >>> 1) EEG1+EEG2> >>> 2) EEG1> >>> 3) EEG1-EEG2/EEG1+EEG2> >>> 4) EEG1/EEG2> >>> > >>> With my software, there's a list of training options that I can choose> >>> from (amplitude, custom, coherence, ect.). When I highlight "custom", I can> >>> then type in formulas from which to train from. Is there a complete list> >>> somewhere of all the commonly used formulas available? I'm wondering what> >>> each of these are used for or what they mean?> >>> > >>> I've tried searching for info. on this with no luck. You guys (thanks to> >>> Pete in particular) were very helpful in answering my questions in regards> >>> to some of the earlier questions I've had so I'm posting this to see if> >>> someone has any answers to this basic but hard to find info.> >>> > >>> Adam> >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > >