Re: Personal Attacks WAS: discrepancies

[Guest guest]

I don't mind people noting and commenting on my typos. I can't imagine

why any person would mind having a typo noted and commented on, unless

for some strange reason the person actually enjoyed making typos and

wanted to make them.

I felt sensitive about the " Judiasm " typo because I'd seen the same

typo twice and because I once lost points on a history exam for

refusing to make this same misspelling (the History of Religions

teacher misspelled the names of many religions — even religions he

really liked — and disapproved of students noticing this or following

the correct spelling.)

On 7/17/06, ravenmagic2003 <ravenmagic2003@...> wrote:

> Tom wrote: " When such activities cause doubt regarding the Bible,

> which is a core text of Judiasm and THE core text of Christianity. "

>

> Kate answered: " If the words " the Bible " refer to the core texts of

> Christianity (tOld and New Testaments — Book of Genesis through Book

> of Revelation), then only part of the Bible (only some, not all, of

> these texts) serves as a core text of Judaism. (Jewish Bibles don't

> have New Testaments.) By the way, dictionaries spell " Judaism " and

> not " Judiasm. " "

>

> Interestingly enough, you have gone after a few posters for minor

> typo's and attempted to diminish them for these errors. No one picks

> on your typo's. Hmmmm, how very interesting, Kate.

>

> Raven

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

> acceptance. Everyone is valued.

>

> Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

>

[Guest guest]

On 17 Jul 2006 ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> Kate answered: ... By the way, dictionaries spell " Judaism " and

> not " Judiasm.

I saw it as a clarification; not as a rebuke.

Which is part of the point. The ending " -ism " has some meaning,

so while nitpicking typos can be the bloodsport of list sparing

people, it's also a bit of education when it's something besides

" teh " instead of " the " . Significantly the correction was

(presumably) contained within a response to a message, and not

as a separate " you got that one wrong " message.

Notice I didn't mention " trolls " above. Trolls, if they mention

spelling at all, would do so only if they had a chance to

indicate how totally ignorant their target was, or something to

that effect. I just never saw that sort of thing here.

I believe Kate has corrected me in the past. It was valid and

non-insulting, pointing out correct use of a phrase (IIRC,

" Lashon hara " ( " " or " " depending or how your

computer is set up). That was definitely *not* of the nature of

a slight or insult; it was intended to be helpful and was

helpful.

- s

[Guest guest]

--Stan wrote: " I believe Kate has corrected me in the past ...

<snip> ... That was definitely *not* of the nature of a slight or

insult; it was intended to be helpful and was helpful. "

Back in February and March of this year, she went after without

mercy, attacking him every time he posted, picking out this misspelled

word or that typo. This is another side of Kate that also exists and

she has presented that very well in the past.

Raven

[Guest guest]

--Stan wrote: " I believe Kate has corrected me in the past ...

<snip> ... That was definitely *not* of the nature of a slight or

insult; it was intended to be helpful and was helpful. "

Back in February and March of this year, she went after without

mercy, attacking him every time he posted, picking out this misspelled

word or that typo. This is another side of Kate that also exists and

she has presented that very well in the past.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Okay Stan I understand what you are saying here, but I am sure there

are some on the list whose way with words are not as good, or as

precise as others and I include myself in this.

Recently when I am getting the chance to post there is probably a

strong chance my wording will not be that good and spelling, grammer

and typos are likely to happen, basically because I am tired.

>

> > Kate answered: ... By the way, dictionaries spell " Judaism " and

> > not " Judiasm.

>

> I saw it as a clarification; not as a rebuke.

>

> Which is part of the point. The ending " -ism " has some meaning,

> so while nitpicking typos can be the bloodsport of list sparing

> people, it's also a bit of education when it's something besides

> " teh " instead of " the " . Significantly the correction was

> (presumably) contained within a response to a message, and not

> as a separate " you got that one wrong " message.

>

> Notice I didn't mention " trolls " above. Trolls, if they mention

> spelling at all, would do so only if they had a chance to

> indicate how totally ignorant their target was, or something to

> that effect. I just never saw that sort of thing here.

>

> I believe Kate has corrected me in the past. It was valid and

> non-insulting, pointing out correct use of a phrase (IIRC,

> " Lashon hara " ( " " or " " depending or how your

> computer is set up). That was definitely *not* of the nature of

> a slight or insult; it was intended to be helpful and was

> helpful.

>

> - s

>

[Guest guest]

Kate,

Sometimes it isn't WHAT a person states it's HOW they state it.

Anticipating a persons reaction is not always possible but one can

only learn from their mistakes. If a member is offended they must

let you know or you'll never understand what topics are " off limit "

for them. All I can say about that is what I tell my children on

almost daily basis, even if you didn't mean to hurt someone an

apology is necessary. All you can do is try not to repeat the same

mistake, your only human.

I can say this for posts with spelling errors, leave it be. I

assume most of us are adults and those who have problems with

spelling, such as myself, know our skills are poor. It can be very

difficult when someone like myself has a large vocabulary but cannot

use all of it for fear of looking stupid. I usually have a

dictonary nearby when I post but when I'm in the middle of a thought

looking up a word I'd like to use can be a real distraction. The

only way I can catch some of my errors is to read my posts aloud to

myself but will fail to do this when tired.

As for the facts of a discussion, well a fact is a fact. Maybe

citing the source of information would help? I read this here...

you can find this in this book... author, web page etc.. and then

say why what you learned formed your thoughts on the subject. If a

disagreement continues, agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

Nothing fruitful comes from debates in which both sides have taken

the " I'm correct therefore you must be wrong " approach. This I know

from experience as I no longer speak to one of my brothers and have

an Uncle who will no longer contact me. I questioned him too many

times about a topic related to religion and he proved unable to

tolerate this, even when I had facts to back up my statements.

Only trying to help. :?

Kim

> /1/ what can help an Aspie know (before saying something, before

> asking something, before correcting something such as a typo or a

> misquotation) whether the saying or asking or correcting will make

> another person feel harmed

>

> and

>

> /2/ what can help an Aspie know (again, before the event) when

other considerations should or shouldn't outweigh the wish to avoid

making another person feel harmed.

>(For example: if during any discussion someone doesn't have

> his/her facts straight, do the other people have to keep quiet

about that because the person who made the mistake might feel

extremely bad, even really hurt, about seeing the mistake disagreed

with?)

>

>

> Kate Gladstone (I *will* try to remember to use this short sign-

off ... )

>

[Guest guest]

On 19 Jul 2006 Kate Gladstone wrote:

> More immediately and importantly (at least to me), I'd also like

> informed opinions on:

>

> /1/ what can help an Aspie know (before saying something, before

> asking something, before correcting something such as a typo or a

> misquotation) whether the saying or asking or correcting will make

> another person feel harmed

First, don't confuse someone point to typo corrections as *per

se* evidence of harm. It's the nature of email lists for people

to sqwalk typos and for other to object.

But in general, if the person is receptive in some way to the

corrections, I would go with it. That can lead to mistakes, as

in 's case, but that's the information you have.

I would look to whether there's reason the person would feel

" put down " by the correction. If the person seems to be capable

of writing at an advanced level, then that person would welcome

corrections.

An example of " good " corrections is whether Ted Kaczynski is the

" Unabomer " , " the Unibomber " or " Unabomber " (or for that matter

the more correct " UNABOM " ). Gerry Newport and I have gone back

and forth on that one at least twice.

In the case of a person requesting corrections in general, I

suppose an alternative is to send off-list messages. The reason

is that someone who is weak in writing will find the corrections

truly embarrassing.

> and

>

> /2/ what can help an Aspie know (again, before the event) when other

> considerations should or shouldn't outweigh the wish to avoid making

> another person feel harmed.

> (For example: if during any discussion someone doesn't have

> his/her facts straight, do the other people have to keep quiet about

> that because the person who made the mistake might feel extremely bad,

> even really hurt, about seeing the mistake disagreed with?)

I don't think that's really a problem. I just don't think that

was the issue here.

In answer to your question, it is possible to write criticism in

a way that doesn't point to a particular person as being

incorrect. That's not being obtuse because the idea or concept

is the point of discussion in the first place. Still, it's hard

to criticize an idea without implying that the person with the

idea was wrong.

If someone objects to a way of thinking implied by a question or

comment, it really is up to that person to say so.

In the case of religion or culture, I think it's important to

cite that the culture is being respected at some level. That

would perhaps keep people who don't understand that you're

questioning from being offended. Specifically, it tells them

you're respecting their culture and therefore not intending to

be offensive.

- s

[Guest guest]

Kate,

I could be wrong, but on an aspie list, I don't think anyone would

mind been cited sources. Aspies tend to like facts :-)

>

> Thanks to Kim for her very detailed and thoughtful answer, which I

> will do my best to apply.

>

> Regarding this:

>

> > As for the facts of a discussion, well a fact is a fact. Maybe

> > citing the source of information would help?

>

> I've learned the hard way (not here, but on other listservs and in

> face-to-face/phone/snail-mail discussions) that (unfortunately)

many,

> MANY people just get madder when you cite the source of a fact that

> disagrees with them: especially if (as sometimes happens) the fact

> disagrees with some assumption.they considered obviously trie and/or

> desirable.

>

> I've seen fact-citers (myself and others) called such names as

> " professorhead, " " dweeb, " thrown off of listservs, thrown out of

their

> jobs and their social groups for " not getting along " because they

> cited facts and (when challenged or otherwise) cited the sources for

> those facts. The others (who threw them out) seemed to regard

factual

> citations/source-evidence as " dirty pool. " They complained against

> " bringing in facts about ______[name of subject]____ when we were

> having such a great discussion of the subject — why couldn't s/he

just

> share the group opinion instead of disrupting everything by getting

> into facts and bothering us with evidence and sources? That isn't

> friendly! Yes, I know we did ask him/her to show us the evidence,

the

> source of his/her information, but doesn't s/he know that's just a

> manner of speaking and it is rude behavior to actually go and DO

> that? "

>

> In college I lost a very dear friend because of this kind of thing.

To

> make a long story short: as each of us got to know the other more

and

> more, it turned out that a very important and meaningful part of her

> beliefs and culture involved believing some incorrect ideas about

what

> various other cultures believed and practiced: sort of " My

culture 'X'

> believes that cultures 'Y' and 'Z' believe and practice _____[fill

in

> the blank]_____, and believing those things about cultures 'Y'

and 'Z'

> is an important and meaningful part of belonging to culture 'X'. "

> Unfortunately for our friendship, those other cultures (that

> culturally she " had to " believe factual errors about) included one

> that I grew up in. So she would ask some questions that assumed

> non-facts as facts — I would reply factually — she would find those

> factual answers unacceptable, ask for evidence/sources, and then

find

> culturally unacceptable (in terms of her culture) the fact that the

> evidence/sources actually happened to exist and I could show/cite it

> to her: perhaps a bit like the problem that Kim reports with her

> uncle.

> It posed a real problem for that basically very nice person

(and

> for those who knew her) in her dealings with many people, not just

in

> her dealings with me.

>

>

> Kate Gladstone

>

[Guest guest]

>

>>

> " /1/ what can help an Aspie know (before saying something, before

> asking something, before correcting something such as a typo or a

> misquotation) whether the saying or asking or correcting will make

> another person feel harmed

>

> and

>

> /2/ what can help an Aspie know (again, before the event) when other

> considerations should or shouldn't outweigh the wish to avoid making

> another person feel harmed.

> (For example: if during any discussion someone doesn't have

> his/her facts straight, do the other people have to keep quiet about

> that because the person who made the mistake might feel extremely

bad,

> even really hurt, about seeing the mistake disagreed with?) "

I just wrote a long answer to this and lost it. Sigh. Maybe that's as

well, maybe it was too long.

I think that when you hadn't posted in a while and then came straight

out with a question, is what made it seem possibly antagonistic. Now

you've posted more and shared some things and people feel more

comfortable. Prefacing questions with little things such as: " That's

interesting, what is the origin? " or " I would really like to know

more. Can you tell me what the origin of this is? " goes a long way.

Just find little things to say like that. Little things go a long way.

I know when people used to think I was a know-it-all I found I had to

say things like, " Really, that's so interesting " when someone would

tell me something I already knew. My husband says he has to do that

to. It feels a little insincere but makes for good relationships.

Fortunately Aspies can take more forthrightness and facts so it's

easier here. You don't have to be insincere but just think a minute

about some little thing to say that fits your personality. Adding

things like " me too " " that hurts me too " can help if you feel

comfortable. I know I want to be nice and helpful so I just try and

find ways to show that. It can make me feel vulnerable but it's worth

it for relationships and feeling a part of things, having a

connection.

Also I've noticed that with women especially, they often tend to feel

that only they are having such-and-such a problem or they have it

worse than anyone else, but that's just not true. You'd be surprised

to see how many people in the world have problems, many similiar, but

you can't see into their heads and due to the human spirit and people

not expressing things all the time and trying to be positive you

don't often see it.

>

>

> Kate Gladstone (I *will* try to remember to use this short sign-

off ... )

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah to be honest I hate having the wrong facts :-(

If I had believed something to be true that I had heard, read,

whatever if I then later find out that it wasn't, I used to be so

annoyed - well now I am just not as quick to believe :-) but saying

that I do have beliefs :-)

>

> Thanks to Stan, , and Mike for their helpful suggestions,

which I

> will do my best to apply.

>

> Re:

>

> > > In the case of religion or culture, I think it's important to

> > > cite that the culture is being respected at some level.

>

> This important necessity becomes difficult when dealing with

cultures

> which regard correction/contradiction (of any sort) as disrespect.

> When " X " says/does something that " Y " regards as disrespectful, this

> can override any number of other (respectful) things

> done/said/attempted by " X. " (Seeming disrespectful / " going against

> the culture " even once — even if " X " behaves to " Y " in a

> respectful/acceptable manner on 999,999,999 other occasions — may

> look to " Y " as if " X " doesn't really feel respect for the culture

but

> just usually fakes it: because " Y " and his/her culture may believe

> that someone who really respected a culture would not have violated

> its norms even once.)

> This can happen, I think, not just between people from

different

> cultures but between Aspie and non-Aspie (or even between two Aspies

> with differing types or " amounts " of Aspie-ness).

>

> In any case — turning now to — , you probably have it

> right that I seemed " antagonistic' because I hadn't posted in a

while

> and then suddenly I asked a question. (I get about 1500 e-mails a

day,

> these days — AFTER I filter out the spam — so often I decide for a

> while not to read/answer one or more listservs or other categories

of

> mail.)

>

> I agree with , by the way, that " Aspies tend to like facts " :

but

> I don't know if we Aspies always have an easy time dealing with a

fact

> when it contradicts something else we had previously considered a

fact

> (and therefore had liked: now we have to learn to stop liking that

> old, untrue " fact " — to stop having it, and to start having some

> different and opposite fact instead.)

> I know how hard many people (including myself) find it to get

rid

> of things I've had for a long time (old pieces of string, old e-

mails,

> or whatever). It seems likely that this difficulty in getting rid of

> old stuff can apply to old " facts " as well (when it turns out that

the

> " fact " never held true in the first place, or when one day you wake

up

> and the old fact has changed — e.g., " East Germany and West Germany "

> becoming just " Germany " )

>

>

> Kate Gladstone

>