Re: Attacks by Professionals on AS

[Guest guest]

Some sweeping generalizations in those quotes. They don't really apply either. It sounds to me more like that she is very high maintenance and couldn't stand not being the center of attention and being fawned over 24/7. I think it more likely that an AS man would look for a low maintenance woman of at least average intelligence, socialability not much of an issue, as long as the two get along. I know that looking at profiles on dating sites that seeing a lot of social activities like going to bars and all that is an immediate disqualified. I for one don't need someone to navigate the social world for me. I can do that readily enough when I have to, the point being that that isn't often.

This just looks like another case of a person with issues taking it out on the world. Of course, such people also tend to write best sellers.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/25/2006 1:40:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

If the lazy web-surfer regards her "PhD" view as the end all and beall of opinions, then they are permanently influenced negatively bythis woman and may wind up mistreating their partners or children as aresult.

Just keep in mind what those designations really mean.

A.S. (Associate Degree) = All Sh*t

B.S. (Bachelor of Science) = Bullsh*t

M.S. (Master of Science) = More Sh*t

PhD = Piled Higher and Deeper

What most people don't understand about education is that the more you get, the less you know. The higher one goes in degree, the more narrowly focussed that training is. A BS from a decent school gives one a fairly broad base, though shallow. An MS is specializing in a certain topic, like say History. Those studies are focussed tightly on one area of history with maybe a few secondary topics as well. Getting a Ph.D. would mean focussing on something like the Tudor Period in England along with a Dissertation no one will read or even care about. The result is being a specialist in one area.

What many with this level of education don't get is what I said in the first sentence above. They should realize from all that they learn about their chosen subjects how much they DON'T know about everything else. After all, if their subject is so detailed an intricate, aren't all the others?

Lastly, a diploma doesn't mean you are smart, it just means you are well trained. I've known people without formal education that are quite intelligent and very good at what they do. By the same token, I know people with big degrees that barely have the common sense to come in out of the rain.

Now, this is not to say that specializing isn't good. If I'm sick with something nasty, I'd much rather see a specialist in the field than a GP for treatment.

[Guest guest]

In viewing Marshack's site, here is what I have to say...

I have a site of my own, and it took considerable energy to construct.

For her to have devoted this much energy into creating a site with so

much hateful content suggests more than negativism on her part but an

outright hatred of Aspies that is so extensive, it impairs her

rational thought process.

She bills herself as a licensed psychologist, yet what psychologist

would post such comments as these:

" Many describe living with an Aspie as “water torture.†It is the

constant drip, drip, drip of small thoughtless behaviors that destroys

the relationship. The lack of eye contact, the obsessive/compulsive

behaviors, the adherence to rigid routines, the self absorption, the

social anxiety, all lead to family members feeling like they just

cannot connect with their Asperger family members. But it isn’t so

much the unusual behaviors that make the connecting difficult, but the

inconsistency. Never knowing what is coming next, makes a loving

connection very difficult. "

" The AS man never seems to learn that his wife can’t feel his love if

he does not demonstrate it. He will do what he thinks is best for the

both of them but seldom talks to her about her feelings or opinions.

And if she tries to share her love for him, he may find her need to

“connect†smothering. Often these relationships are without sexual

intimacy. "

" AS men are attracted to strong, intelligent, compassionate women who

can handle the social world for them. These same women are attracted

to the unconventional nature and boyish charm of AS men. They feel he

will allow them their independence. It is only later that they learn

their AS partner is quite conservative. Instead of supporting her

independence the NT wife realizes that her AS husband is merely

disinterested in her interests. His attention is narrowly focused on

his interests. "

" But women with Asperger Syndrome are viewed as cold, uncaring, and

selfish. Many AS women never marry or they marry AS men. "

" We are just learning about this tragedy from adults coming forward to

tell about being raised by AS parents. So far these people are

reporting that they have coped with severe depression and self esteem

problems because they lived with a parent who could not nurture them

or get to know who they really are. It is very debilitating to

experience emotional rejection daily as a child, even if your physical

needs are provided for. This does not mean the AS parent does not love

their child. But the communication and relating deficits confuse the

child and can lead to the child feeling unloved. "

Yadda yadda yadda.

Browse around the site and see more for yourselves.

I am going to see if I can write some sort of letter to her (nicely

written) and see if I can get some sort of response out of her.

Tom

Administrator

http://www.kmarshack.com/news/current/as/faq.html

Can others go over Marshack's site and see what you think?

Thank you!

Deborah

[Guest guest]

In viewing Marshack's site, here is what I have to say...

I have a site of my own, and it took considerable energy to construct.

For her to have devoted this much energy into creating a site with so

much hateful content suggests more than negativism on her part but an

outright hatred of Aspies that is so extensive, it impairs her

rational thought process.

She bills herself as a licensed psychologist, yet what psychologist

would post such comments as these:

" Many describe living with an Aspie as “water torture.†It is the

constant drip, drip, drip of small thoughtless behaviors that destroys

the relationship. The lack of eye contact, the obsessive/compulsive

behaviors, the adherence to rigid routines, the self absorption, the

social anxiety, all lead to family members feeling like they just

cannot connect with their Asperger family members. But it isn’t so

much the unusual behaviors that make the connecting difficult, but the

inconsistency. Never knowing what is coming next, makes a loving

connection very difficult. "

" The AS man never seems to learn that his wife can’t feel his love if

he does not demonstrate it. He will do what he thinks is best for the

both of them but seldom talks to her about her feelings or opinions.

And if she tries to share her love for him, he may find her need to

“connect†smothering. Often these relationships are without sexual

intimacy. "

" AS men are attracted to strong, intelligent, compassionate women who

can handle the social world for them. These same women are attracted

to the unconventional nature and boyish charm of AS men. They feel he

will allow them their independence. It is only later that they learn

their AS partner is quite conservative. Instead of supporting her

independence the NT wife realizes that her AS husband is merely

disinterested in her interests. His attention is narrowly focused on

his interests. "

" But women with Asperger Syndrome are viewed as cold, uncaring, and

selfish. Many AS women never marry or they marry AS men. "

" We are just learning about this tragedy from adults coming forward to

tell about being raised by AS parents. So far these people are

reporting that they have coped with severe depression and self esteem

problems because they lived with a parent who could not nurture them

or get to know who they really are. It is very debilitating to

experience emotional rejection daily as a child, even if your physical

needs are provided for. This does not mean the AS parent does not love

their child. But the communication and relating deficits confuse the

child and can lead to the child feeling unloved. "

Yadda yadda yadda.

Browse around the site and see more for yourselves.

I am going to see if I can write some sort of letter to her (nicely

written) and see if I can get some sort of response out of her.

Tom

Administrator

http://www.kmarshack.com/news/current/as/faq.html

Can others go over Marshack's site and see what you think?

Thank you!

Deborah

[Guest guest]

--- In , " zarinangel "

" Can others go over Marshack's site and see what you think?

" Thank you!

" Deborah "

Here is the letter I sent to her:

Dear Ms. Marshack,

In working with over 600 Aspies over a four year period, I have seldom

in my experience encountered any of the characteristics in Aspies

(aside from DSM IV descriptives) that you cite in your website,

particularly in regards to relationships.

I have found Aspies to be, most often, the more thoughtful and more

loving out of two partners. It is usually the non-Aspie's strict

adherence to social conventions that cause disruptions in a

relationship. Whereas people with Asperger Syndrome tend to focus only

on the relationship itself, people WITHOUT Asperger Syndrome seem to

measure themselves according to fickle and ever- shifting social factors.

This adherence to a unreliable standard of measurement seems to throw

a constant sense of change into the relationship, thereby preventing

true love and constant devotion from taking place. When non-Aspies pay

more attention to what the world thinks rather than what her partner

thinks, yet blames her partner for being too rigid, one can easily see

that the non-Aspie is at fault, and not the partner.

In my experience, what it boils down to is making people

self-actualized so that they are no longer dependent on others to

satisfy their own self-esteem. And this self-actualization applies to

BOTH partners, Aspie or non-Aspie.

I must admit that I have NOT read your book, but could it be that you

yourself have once been married to an AS man and are carrying the

bitterness from your relationship into your professional life?

Looking at your website from a different perspective, one could come

to the conclusion that you are prejudiced against people with Asperger

Syndrome. It's derogatory content is not in any way representative of

the professionalism one would associate with the therapeutic community.

I would ask that you do what psychologists in the profession are

expected to do as a matter of course: Go see a psychologist and work

the passive aggression toward people with AS out of your system so

that you can better counsel people who may have partners with AS. I

would also ask that you recognize that you are taking out on a segment

of the population anger and rage that is better vented against the

specific person that fostered it.

In the meantime, should any of my friends and colleagues hear of your

book or your website, I will discourage them from reading the book and

viewing the site in order to ensure that people with Asperger Syndrome

do not become adversely affected by your non-objective point of view,

and also so that your own credibility as a psychologist is not thrown

into question.

In this way perhaps we can work together to heal the damage you have

caused to people with AS, to marriages where one or both of the

parents are AS, and do what's right for people with Asperger Syndrome.

(Insert name here)

[Guest guest]

> The lack of eye contact, the obsessive/compulsive

> behaviors,

OCD is a condition on its own, called OCD, to be acknowledged on its

own where it exists, it ain't an ingredient of another condition called

AS.

Phew

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/25/2006 4:32:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

It took a while, but one of the two I got published won and award. IfI had not opened up my mind and thrown out everything that I had beentaught the previous four years, I doubt my stories would have beenpublished.TomAdministrator

Congratulations on that. I once had a poem win an award. It was written without much help from what I had learned in the creative writing classes. By the same token, I learned more about writing from more recent books and just plain readin gin the genre I write in than I did from my writing classes, though all that practice did help.

[Guest guest]

---

" I know that Marshack knows that what she is doing is wrong - I can't

prove that, but I do know that. "

This was pretty much the factor that caused me to write my letter.

It is also possible that she does not realize what she is doing. We

cannot know for sure.

But whether or not the site intentionally profanes Aspies, I felt it

necessary to register my " vote " against what she is saying because the

damage she can cause for Aspies is potentially enormous.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

I think part of the problem is perception... the use of the terms

" Syndrome " , " Disorder " , etc implies that Apies and

people with similar temperaments are broken and need to be fixed,

adjusted, etc, or if that is not possible discarded.

I happened across a paper discussing Schizoid Personality Disorder

(Which has very similar in many ways to AS.) on the Wikipedia

(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid)...

" Oppressed Group: Schizoid A Personality Not a

Disorder "

(

http://www.pipeline.com/~dada3zen/schizoid_a_personality_not_a_disorder.htm

) It's too long to post in its entirety but here is an

excerpt...

..... but this means nothing to . Instead, he prefers the

company of his thoughts and only shares them with few people, including

me. When he does talk to others, he is generally misunderstood and

ridiculed. Why? Due to his extreme introverted state, is rather

socially ineffective. He does not communicate with others effortlessly.

In addition, his tactless and shrewd words can turn people off. Opposed

to listening to his words, attention is paid to how those words are

presented. As a result, feels vulnerable, angry, and very

uncomfortable and the other party generally feels vulnerable, judgmental,

and sometimes discriminatory of for not being more like them. He

has had several people suggest he " practice more " or

" assimilate " into society . . . his life, therefore, would be

easier. However, who's life would be easier? would no longer be

if he were forced to be social. Manfield (1992) states: Schizoid

patients yearn for a relationship, but the possible injury associated

with even slight emotional contact is more than they are willing to bear.

They are continually faced with dual fears of both isolation and

engulfment. There is no comfortable direction for them to turn. Afraid of

direct contact, they attempt to express their locked-in emotions through

artistic expression, or they retreat to the safe haven of intellectual

thoughts and pursuits. Control is an obsession in their lives because

they cannot risk the emotional upheavals that might result from a

situation that gets out of control. They weigh carefully everything that

they say or that is said to them, replaying conversations over and over

in their heads (Mansfield, 1992, p. 254).

As illustrated, it is no different than asking fish to fly, is

not a social creature. And when he chooses to be social, it is only with

a select few. This does not make a freak, weirdo, or pathological

case . . . it simply means he is different. And as discussed in Social

Justice, " different " does not constitute being wrong, weak, nor

inferior. Anyone or group that does not follow such guidelines tends to

be discriminated against, judged, and ridiculed. has been treated

in such a way no different than any other minority group. In a lot of

ways, his situation is more complex and difficult. Being that, is

a blue-eyed, middle-class, white man. According to social norms,

is supposed to be in a position of power and advantage over others. It is

not understood why he simply cannot " speak up " more or attend

social functions. Because his differences are not blatant, others assume

he is a social being and once they find out that he is not and actively

chooses a life of being independent and withdrawn, there is a strange

dissonance in the air. In other words, society believes that

could and should change, but since he does not . . . that portrays him as

being weird, a freak, bizarre, and a loser...

I think it has applicability in this context... make you own

decision...

Ender

[Guest guest]

Sorry about the weird formatting

Ender

[Guest guest]

Dear Ender,

Thank you for this important post. I have been ruminating, thinking and praying

about

this for a number of months and your post birngs some light.

Left handedness, in history, was thought as first something that showed Evil

tendancies

and later, something that was an illness. Either way many left handed people

were

persecuted and abuse.

I personally don't feel that Asperger's is a disorder. I do feel that being

brought up in a

society that does not understand our needs has greatly impeded many from finding

themselves. I know personally, as do many here, that when we don't have what we

need

for balance that having AS could thought to be a " handicap " in an NT world.

It is my own feeling that dolphins, parrots and others take to people with AS -

and people

with AS take to them - because they recognize each others energy. I was

fortunate to

have dogs and cats and other animals early in my life and still do - I don't

talk to them in

English - but we communicate in energy. My brother has the same ability.

I was fortunate to find many ways of being and living that have helped make my

AS

perfectly wonderful. I have also found that when explaining it to many NTs they

simply

don't get it and charge ahead with their own agendas. But my more sensitive

friends are

very understanding and we have rich, rewarding interations that make a better

whole in

our community.

To me, AS is simply another human " platform " for the brain system. Sort of like

-

Macintosh and PC - we may not be able to be the same - and will get total

garbage if we

act like the other - but we should be able to learn to communicate so that we

can come

together to enjoy each other's differences. In the current system we with AS

often are not

able to function unless we create our own world and guard it carefully, no

matter what

tries to invade and hope for the best.

I am thankful for the NET and boards like this so that we can come together and

have

these important discussions. I feel one of the next steps is to find a way to

promote who

we are as perfectly, wonderfully created humans that have needs that differ from

other

humans - not as pathologicals that need special care because we are a syndrome.

Best Regards,

Deborah

[Guest guest]

No problem, and thanks for the post.

Tom

Administrator

Re: Re: Attacks by Professionals on AS

Sorry about the weird formatting

Ender

[Guest guest]

" This place is important. It feels safe and one can open themselves

up, have a voice and it has meaning, to us. While a movement can be

important figuring out how to best function is necessary. Having

understanding and having belonging. I know that I have felt adrift

and alone, and that no one would ever understand the way I think. AS

isn't universal thought but I feel a bit more like things make sense.

We all want the world to make sense. "

I am glad to hear you say this Miminm.

We all need to have a place that we can call home and I am thankful

that you feel at home here.

Secret Society has been in existence for a long time, and has,

occasionally, experienced turbulence. We have had our disruptive

individuals from time to time and I have had to boot them out to

preserve the peace.

The thing I am striving for here is a place where we can all come to

to talk just as we have been talking and feel comfortable.

Chances are none of us on the board will ever meet each other in

person, but it really is good to know that there are people out

there that can be understanding -and be friendly, and be like real

life friends are- anyway.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

What a beautiful way of expressing the differences between As people

and NTs. I feel similarly.

What I don't get is why the majority of AS people see AS and NT in

this light, but most NTs think we are all rejects and ought to be

changed, rehabbed, treated, cured, euthanized, genetically

eliminated through eugenics programs.

While I CAN see that NT minds may be unaccepting, or perhaps

incapable of thinking on a higher level that allows for acceptance

of strange people, I don't understand why they can be reasoned with

on any other topic EXCEPT social issues.

It's like they have a sort of irrationally willed barrier that

prevents them from accepting abnormalities or social incongruence.

It's almost as though their survival hinges on the idea that social

conformity MUST be in place and they must have a place in society or

the universe will come to an end for them.

I will never understand it.

Tom

Administrator

" To me, AS is simply another human " platform " for the brain system.

Sort of like-Macintosh and PC - we may not be able to be the same -

and will get total garbage if we act like the other - but we should

be able to learn to communicate so that we can come together to

enjoy each other's differences. In the current system we with AS

often are not able to function unless we create our own world and

guard it carefully, no matter what tries to invade and hope for the

best. "

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with what you said. It seems you have a better

understanding of the nature of the individual mechanisms at work

rather than slapping a label and being satisfied with such one-

dimensional observations. I've said before that schizoid and some of

these other disorders coincide with the symptomatology.

[Guest guest]

Sure, Schizoids and Aspies have well ordered lives probably because they don't have someone in their house who rearranges their stuff or change the radio station. Schizoids and Aspies have different ways of living that are not the outside world's reality. That is to say, someone can paint an abstract picture but, it depends on the interpretation by an individual before stamping the label of Ppllock for example. I'll listen to a CD and often I'll have the imagery of the album color in my head whilst listening to it. For instance, the Metallica Black Album makes me think of different shades of black. I was listening to the classical station the other day and it said basically what you'd stated, that the situation at present is one that listens to the extroverts and not the introverts. So, alot of people are aware of that. Wasn't that during the Ice Age when they were in Eurasia? On the flip side there are alot of people who appreciate someone who just listens to what is being

said. The guy downstairs was drunk and I was there at the wrong time like usual and got caught up in a conversation with him. He was basically saying how women like to dance so, I stayed and listened to him. He was saying how he goes to the dance place and there's a ratio of about 4:1 women to men. Anyway, he wanted a ride so, I drove him to his girlfriend's house where he dropped off a pillow, box of toiletries and a slow cooker. He just quit smoking a month or so ago cold turkey. He told me he's started overeating and drinking alcohol to get to sleep. He said the 5 week classes he went to had 30 people at the start and at the end there were only 5 committed non-smokers. It is funny how some science buffoons equate the nature of left-handedness to certain disorders. Although I've noticed people who are left-handed do have certain quirky personality traits it might be because of the fact that a part of their brain knows a physical manifestation is different than the

physical manifestations inside other people and as such has believed that he or she must be different "somehow" and something hardly noticeable within a certain dimensional framework is manifested in their personality from the unconscious stemming from those feelings of being different. The problem is that people who speak up on these matters portray the manifestation as a result of something not creative, something that instills fear in people's hearts which spurs on the bigots, superiority attitudes and so forth. People aren't willing to find the answer through a maze. They want it quick and painless, generic, low cost. Ender <ender@...> wrote: That's the thing... the symptoms are only a "disorder" when compared to the behavior of NT's... taken in isolation Aspies and Schizoids are in many ways are extremely "well ordered"... Like with left-handedness... the only thing wrong with being left-handed is the most of the world is right-handed... What makes Aspies, Schizoids, Avoidants, etc weird is that we are highly Introverted and most of the world is highly extroverted... There are other things of course but most are to some degree co-morbid with introversion...Actually from the stand point of survival of the species Extroversion made sense in the days with the total human population was only a few hundred thousand individuals spread across all of Eurasia... forming groups made it more likely humans would

survive... but now with people packed together like sardines it makes better sense to have humans that prefer isolation to reverse the population spiral... unfortunately though the extroverts breed much faster then the introverts compounding the problem...EnderAt 04:03 PM 10/29/2006, Nick wrote:>I have to agree with what you said. It seems you have a better>understanding of the nature of the individual mechanisms at work>rather than slapping a label and being satisfied with such one->dimensional observations. I've said before that schizoid and some of>these other disorders coincide with the symptomatology.

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