Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

January 17, 2012

Gretchen,

she, your client, apparently is at a stage before releasing a major trauma. Rising high beta means unconsciously pushing down the releasing energy of that trauma. Behaviour becomes paradoxically. She has to become aware of a phase of some chaos happening in her inner life. If you`re sensitive enough (I suppose you are) you tell her about what you see and what she has to go through. Intensive coaching and doing the same protocols as before is the best you can do. Try to be her inner coach leading her through a difficult (inner) landscape. NLP knowledge can help additionally - pacing, leading, reframing.

Uwe

January 18, 2012

In regards to the paradoxical part of the dilemma is there a

possibility that what you are providing as a reward to her (audio/visual

feedback) isn’t rewarding to her but perhaps annoying? I personally can’t

tolerate country music and am fairly certain that if you had a country music

song as the reward for more of any particular brainwave band I would

produce less of it to create what I consider to be a reward (the end of the

offensive stimuli). If you are checking in and she is thinking about colors and

puppy dogs then the reward you are providing is probably not rewarding enough

to keep her attention. Perhaps keeping the protocol but changing the audio/visual

feedback to something she chooses (many of the TLC screens allow for a CD/DVD

that she could provide) might make a change in the training.

What does everyone think of that idea?

Steve

January 18, 2012

Thanks all, for the advice thus far!

Incidentally, this client has remarked that she enjoys the tones being generated

- I have it set to a low string sound and a jazz-sounding scale.

But as I think about it, she is married to a jazz musician, and perhaps there's

an unconscious association there, to the music, that is creating this

paradoxical reaction?

My sense still is one of aversion to " letting go " or going more deeply into

something, based on our conversations. So, still looking for ways to make that

safe for her.

Gretchen

>

> > In regards to the paradoxical part of the dilemma is there a possibility

that what you are providing as a reward to her (audio/visual feedback) isnâ€™t

rewarding to her but perhaps annoying? I personally canâ€™t tolerate country

music and am fairly certain that if you had a country music song as the reward

for more of any particular brainwave band I would produce less of it to create

what I consider to be a reward (the end of the offensive stimuli). If you are

checking in and she is thinking about colors and puppy dogs then the reward you

are providing is probably not rewarding enough to keep her attention. Perhaps

keeping the protocol but changing the audio/visual feedback to something she

chooses (many of the TLC screens allow for a CD/DVD that she could provide)

might make a change in the training.

> >

> > What does everyone think of that idea?

> >

> > Steve

> >

>

January 18, 2012

Gretchen, sounds a little like attachment issues, if she were a child or teenager then I would train to reduce anxiety at Temportal, Prefrontal and perhaps Parietal. RegardsNoel EastwoodPsychologist Canberra, AustraliaPh: 02 6162 0914Fax: 02 6162 0915Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.comPsychology, Counselling, NeurofeedbackBioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is

prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email.

January 19, 2012

Frans,

I guess you are on the wrong list.

If the client`s brainwave patterns change - it is the client who does it, not the trainer (there is no brainwash mechanism) -, this is a transformational and growth procedure. So, stay quiet and let Gretchen do her therapeutic work.

Uwe

January 19, 2012

Frans,

I guess you are on the wrong list.

If the client`s brainwave patterns change - it is the client who does it, not the trainer (there is no brainwash mechanism) -, this is a transformational and growth procedure. So, stay quiet and let Gretchen do her therapeutic work.

Uwe

January 19, 2012

I thank you all for the helpful discussion here, with this client. We had a

very rich discussion about her process today, and I believe it will help

facilitate some more growth and movement with her, on a number of levels.

Frans, I don't believe in " solving " anything with clients, but rather

accompanying them on their path to finding more ease and flexibility and

wholeness in life - an individual journey for each of us. I'm sorry you read my

words differently than that.

Many thanks again for this supportive community!

Take care,

Gretchen

>

> Dear Group:

>

> I have a client who has a rich background in yoga, and both teaches it and

practices various self-awareness and self-relaxation techniques much of each

day. She is sweet to work with, however, the brain-training stuff is being

extraordinally difficult, on some levels.

>

> We are training a temporal windowed squash, and also a right parietal windowed

squash, based on the TLC and symptoms. She's got lots of beta going on.

>

> However, in the training, her readings/graphs quickly show an initial settling

in the brain, and then start showing a paradoxical response to what the protocol

is set for, and from what I'm used to seeing with others on these protocols:

her high beta starts rising, and ultimately, everything else does, too. This

happens in other protocols I've tried, too.

>

> When I check in, she has wondered off into colors, and puppy dog barks, and

orbs and other wonderful creative things...

>

> We're working on various symptoms, but the symptoms of falling asleep have

improved very much, but the staying asleep has not. I kind of equate it to the

graphs I see of her trainings; an initial settling, but then much busyness.

>

> Her history equates with this, too - a " military brat " who never spent more

than 2 years in one place, and had to be on her best behavior all the time. Her

in-session responses seem like " quiet rebellions " and discomfort with trusting

she could stay in one place for long.

>

> So, I've started doing training in 3-minute increments, where she can check in

and talk about her experience, and we can re-focus back to the feedback again

(which often goes out of the picture for her). This is helping. And teaching

her to " stay " for a few minutes at a time. She says she feels resistance from

her head to toe in this, but thinks it is a good process.

>

> Another side note is that when she closes her eyes, she automatically

wants/needs to turn her head completely to the left.

>

> The client talks about wanting to go retire/retreat to a cave like the great

yogis. I believe much of her efforts are to bypass her suffering, rather than

find ways to walk through it. I'm not a therapist, and have offered up names of

brilliant ones I work with, to travel this special journey with her. Not

interested.

>

> Does anyone have any thoughts on coaching here - some ways I can better coach

the neurofeedback end of things? Some ways of staying with the experience

rather than wandering away to the cave? I sense there may be trauma here, and

that slow, trustworthy experiences may be the best.

>

> Thanks for any thoughts you might have...

> Gretchen

>

January 20, 2012

Love your very clear and easy to understand explanation, Pete! Contrary to what

is often heard about NFB not being a " stand alone " treatment, this explantion

suggests otherwise,at least in this example.

Mike

> >

> >> **

> >>

> >> **

> >> Gretchen,

> >>

> >> Well, I am a bit astonished about how you tend to deal with this problem:

> >> it's a psychological issue..............and of course this will be

> >> reflected in brainpatterns..........but you cannot 'solve' it (I had rather

> >> speak of growth and transformation) by trying to change these patterns,

> >> that's the world upside-down. You might even take away her opportunaty for

> >> growth all the way...........shouldn't you just settle for facilitating

> >> this (only if she really is up to it) in stead of trying to 'cure' her?

> >>

> >> Frans

> >>

> >> * Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical

> >> Brain

> >>

> >> Gretchen, sounds a little like attachment issues, if she were a child

> >> or teenager then I would train to reduce anxiety at Temportal, Prefrontal

> >> and perhaps Parietal.

> >>

> >> Regards

> >> Noel Eastwood

> >> Psychologist

> >> Canberra, Australia

> >> Ph: 02 6162 0914

> >> Fax: 02 6162 0915

> >> Web: <http://www.nenfb.com/>www.learnwiseaustralia.com

> >> Psychology, Counselling, Neurofeedback

> >>

> >> Bioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in

> >> Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your

> >> Session in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.

> >>

> >> IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology.

> >> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are

> >> intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the

> >> intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is

> >> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to

> >> contact the sender and delete the email.

> >>

> >

>

January 20, 2012

Hi Gretchen,

I really havent got a clue actually. I do however wonder about a possible

schizophrenic component: My mum had schizophrenia and I experience pretty grave

psychotic symptoms from time to time, for which I also take medication. From

what I have read about schizophrenia and nfb, nfb isnt a cure, it is something

that needs to be done continuously from time to time, because schizophrenia is

oftentimes a progressive disease.

But well, I am just guessing here and dont know what the cause of the lack of

structural change is. Could you maybe elaborate a bit on the 'systematical'

things you wonder could contribute to this? Where can I find information about

this?

I am trying to set up a combination of nf and specialized pstchotherapy to try

work through the trauma's and integrate them. It is a leap of faith - it will

cost me a hell of a lot of time and there are no guarantees as to the outcome of

the whole process. I just really really hope it will help me more structurally.

Thank you and kind regards,

annemiek

> > >

> > > Gretchen,

> > >

> > > Well, I am a bit astonished about how you tend to deal with this

problem: it's a psychological issue..............and of course this will be

reflected in brainpatterns..........but you cannot 'solve' it (I had rather

speak of growth and transformation) by trying to change these patterns, that's

the world upside-down. You might even take away her opportunaty for growth all

the way...........shouldn't you just settle for facilitating this (only if she

really is up to it) in stead of trying to 'cure' her?

> > >

> > > Frans

> > >

> > > Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical

Brain

> > >

> > > Gretchen, sounds a little like attachment issues, if she were a

child or teenager then I would train to reduce anxiety at Temportal, Prefrontal

and perhaps Parietal.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > > Noel Eastwood

> > > Psychologist

> > > Canberra, Australia

> > > Ph: 02 6162 0914

> > > Fax: 02 6162 0915

> > > Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.com

> > > Psychology, Counselling, Neurofeedback

> > >

> > > Bioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in

Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session

in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.

> > >

> > > IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood

Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and

are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the

intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If

you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender

and delete the email.

> > >

> >

>

January 20, 2012

Hoi Annemiek,

Some tips for:

I highly suggest watching this video:

http://vimeo.com/wisetraditionsuk/2010-natasha-campbell-mcbride

Reading this site: http://exendo.be/het-endorfine-systeem/

Also, go to a homeopathic doctor. I am a great fan of neurofeedback but have to

admit that I personally found out that those stupid homeopathic pills can be

much more powerful! Especially when your immune system is involved which can

block your neurofeedback progress.

Rogier

January 20, 2012

Annemiek,

my guess is that you should try some steps into the direction of alpha/theta training. This is more difficult and the outcome is more dependant on an excellent trainer in this field than the usual NF training. I myself have very much experience with this branch of NF.

The first step is to learn how to relax, alpha training. This can be done with several techniques in the range of classical biofeedback. One method available everywhere is listening to guided meditation or new age music audio-CD`s. The guidance must be done by a skilled voice. Here in Germany with have several of such CD-lines, however it must be in your home language and it must be a first-class relaxation teacher. In addition to this you should do a psychotherapy which favours these guidelines.

When you see some good results with this strategy, you have done the first steps successfully and you can go on with alpha/theta training on the long road.

If you like this strategy, you can ask me lots of questions backchannel.

Uwe

January 21, 2012

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for your contribution and thoughts on the subject. I dont know if you're

right, all I can say is that by now I have had over 300 (!!!)

neurofeedback-sessions and still the results dont hold longer than a couple of

months when I stop.

Perhaps you're right, perhaps the period over wich results are maintained will

increase more and more the longer I keep doing this. However I myself feel, that

with this enormous amount of sessions and results that dont hold, I really have

to try if a change in treatment will do me good.

Best,

annemiek

>

> Now this is an interesting topic for investigation, because I have

consulted with Pete and with another well-known neurofeedback-therapist about

this problem and from what I understand, they relate the return of my complaints

to the fact that I still have all this traumatic stuff lurking beneath the

surface. The other neurofeedback-therapist has good hopes that my complaints

will be more structurally being taken care of when I work through the traumatic

experiences and integrate them.

>

> So I would really like to hear Pete's thoughts on this subject - I can

totally agree with him regarding the power of neurofeedback to deeply change

patterns of feeling and behaving without going through traumatic stuff, however

I my case, the results just dont hold and apparently, this could be related to

the unresolved traumatic issues. I am also very interested if Pete can say

anything about this on a general level..

>

January 21, 2012

Thanks Rogier. I'll take that into consideration.

>

> Hoi Annemiek,

>

> Some tips for:

> I highly suggest watching this video:

http://vimeo.com/wisetraditionsuk/2010-natasha-campbell-mcbride

>

> Reading this site: http://exendo.be/het-endorfine-systeem/

>

> Also, go to a homeopathic doctor. I am a great fan of neurofeedback but have

to admit that I personally found out that those stupid homeopathic pills can be

much more powerful! Especially when your immune system is involved which can

block your neurofeedback progress.

> Rogier

>

January 21, 2012

Thanks for your reply Pete. Even though you havent been able to help me the way

I would have liked, I have always valued the time and energy you put into it so

generously and selfishly. I think the generous way you try to help people in

general, also through this list, is exceptional and really wonderful. So, thanks

for that!

Furthermore, in regards to what you're writing, I have done all those sessions

at a BST-affiliate, which pretty much uses the TLC-protocols. I have also

double-checked their protocols (and in fact, you and I emailed about this

subject last year) and I am pretty sure they use two-channel protocols with

linked-ears, always training homologous sites (T3T4, P3P4, etc.).

However could elaborate a bit on the transitory changes that are attained with

bipolar one-channel trainings? Why do those protocols achieve only tranistory

changes?

And could you tell me what you mean with training too far away from the

foundational brain pattern? I have been treated mainly with windowed squashes I

think.

Last but not least, do you think that unresolved trauma could be a cause for the

lack of structural change? Dr. Swingle related this to my stubborn lack of

alpha, saying something like that the suppression of alpha was a way of keeping

the trauma's out of consciousness... and if I understand correctly (but I'm not

sure) this lack of alpha is alos something that can contribute to a brain with a

lack of stability.

Kind regards,

annemiek

>

> > **

> > Now this is an interesting topic for investigation, because I have

> > consulted with Pete and with another well-known neurofeedback-therapist

> > about this problem and from what I understand, they relate the return of my

> > complaints to the fact that I still have all this traumatic stuff lurking

> > beneath the surface. The other neurofeedback-therapist has good hopes that

> > my complaints will be more structurally being taken care of when I work

> > through the traumatic experiences and integrate them.

> >

> > So I would really like to hear Pete's thoughts on this subject - I can

> > totally agree with him regarding the power of neurofeedback to deeply

> > change patterns of feeling and behaving without going through traumatic

> > stuff, however I my case, the results just dont hold and apparently, this

> > could be related to the unresolved traumatic issues. I am also very

> > interested if Pete can say anything about this on a general level..

> >

>

January 21, 2012

Wow Uwe, thanks for your input on the matter. As it is, I have had a lot of

neurofeedback aimed at uptraining alpha, but my alpha never reacted to this. I

have consulted with Dr. Swingle about this (because I read about the different

methods besides NF that he uses to change brain-activity) and I am currently

looking into possibilities for treatment by him or under his supervision. He

told me that the treatment would consist of aggressive therapy aimed at

alpha-release, combined with specialized psychotherapy for integrating trauma's.

So that sounds a little like what you are suggesting. If I have any questions,

I'll defintely contact you.

Thank you!

Kind regards,

annemiek

>

> Annemiek,

> my guess is that you should try some steps into the direction of

> alpha/theta training. This is more difficult and the outcome is more dependant

on an

> excellent trainer in this field than the usual NF training. I myself have

> very much experience with this branch of NF.

> The first step is to learn how to relax, alpha training. This can be done

> with several techniques in the range of classical biofeedback. One method

> available everywhere is listening to guided meditation or new age music

> audio-CD`s. The guidance must be done by a skilled voice. Here in Germany with

> have several of such CD-lines, however it must be in your home language and

> it must be a first-class relaxation teacher. In addition to this you should

> do a psychotherapy which favours these guidelines.

> When you see some good results with this strategy, you have done the first

> steps successfully and you can go on with alpha/theta training on the long

> road.

> If you like this strategy, you can ask me lots of questions backchannel.

> Uwe

>

January 21, 2012

Frans, I am a psychologist like you and trained much like you did, I was fortunate to have found neurofeedback early in my career and underwent training. After 8 years of practice I can confidently say that without neurofeedback I would have much the same level of success as every other psychologist in town. Instead with neurofeedback to supplement my practice, I have outstanding success. I treat severe trauma every day of the week, and if it were not for neurofeedback I would not be able to do much more than wait till their neurological arousal dropped enough to actually begin treating the underlying trauma. Trauma therapy is very difficult and going into the trauma too early can be quite dangerous as you mentioned. Neurofeedback can, as Pete said, address the negative and damaging activation patterns for trauma thus

enabling the therapist to treat quickly and effectively.You stated that you are drawn to neurofeedback and this is why you are on this forum, congratulations, you are on the brink of a whole new world in psychotherapy. If you wish to take the leap and learn more then may I suggest you do one of the many courses available, and learn how to do it properly, find a good mentor you can communicate and chat with, this is essential for a practitioner like yourself. And do not stop posting, your contribution is vital to robust and insightful discourse on such an important therapy. RegardsNoel EastwoodPsychologist Canberra, AustraliaPh: 02 6162 0914Fax: 02 6162 0915Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.comPsychology, Counselling, NeurofeedbackBioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session in Bioexplorer,

Neurofeedback systems.IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email.

January 21, 2012

Annemiek,

I did not grasp that you have had over 300 sessions. Did you titrate down

durring that time like I mentioned(ie continuing to extend the times between

sessions). So if a month was the limit, trying to extend that to 5 weeks,than 6

weeks, etc.

Bruce

> >

> > Now this is an interesting topic for investigation, because I have

consulted with Pete and with another well-known neurofeedback-therapist about

this problem and from what I understand, they relate the return of my complaints

to the fact that I still have all this traumatic stuff lurking beneath the

surface. The other neurofeedback-therapist has good hopes that my complaints

will be more structurally being taken care of when I work through the traumatic

experiences and integrate them.

> >

> > So I would really like to hear Pete's thoughts on this subject - I can

totally agree with him regarding the power of neurofeedback to deeply change

patterns of feeling and behaving without going through traumatic stuff, however

I my case, the results just dont hold and apparently, this could be related to

the unresolved traumatic issues. I am also very interested if Pete can say

anything about this on a general level..

> >

>

January 22, 2012

Dear Listmates,

Great discussion.

On the topic of trauma and NFB, I really feel that we are reaching around in the dark sometimes. There is a lot of variety out there in terms of people and trauma, how we are going to heal. On the idea of hammers, NFB training is another hammer. I like collecting hammers. Can't have too many hammers. New hammers are coming along every day.

I think that it is unnecessarily limiting to think of NFB as a stand alone approach, and I was first influenced by Pete to think this way, both in reference to his multi-modal approach to ADD treatment and then his Brain Prime approach to cognitive decline. There is a lot of discussion out there about what we can use that will augment our results with NFB, CES most recently in this listserve.

So I want to add that I appreciate very much what I've learned through workshops about trauma and NFB from Sebern Fisher who combines it with psychotherapy for work with trauma. With severe trauma, I believe that addressing attachment issues in the context of a therapeutic alliance, in conjunction with NFB can be important especially with character disorders. Given Sebern Fisher's success with her approach, it merits consideration. Besel von der Kolk presented a video of her work at a trauma workshop and as a trauma expert who has little faith in talk therapy alone for trauma, he was inspired by her results to start research with NFB at his trauma center. Swingle says that once you unlock alpha and uptrain theta in the back of the head, you can start doing therapy from there.

It sounds as if Annemieke has profited, indeed, from her help from Pete. Her mention of Swingle brings up a prime example of someone who uses multiple hammers. He uses his Harmonics CDs which, used at home, are great in helping clients sustain gains between sessions and shortening treatment time, especially for raising theta and alpha in the back of the head (trauma treatment). He also uses an acupuncture spot on the wrist, stimulating it with a CES device, which also raises alpha and theta - helps with that process referred to as "unlocking alpha". And he is trained in cranio-sacral therapy and has a specialist in his office to employ it for unlocking alpha - a process he feels is invaluable. Dr. Swingle is someone who will do research on a technique to establish its utility. If his research shows that a technique can add, say, a 5% boost to the work he does with NFB, then he uses it.

Sincerely,

Vieille

January 22, 2012

Dear Listmates,

Great discussion.

On the topic of trauma and NFB, I really feel that we are reaching around in the dark sometimes. There is a lot of variety out there in terms of people and trauma, how we are going to heal. On the idea of hammers, NFB training is another hammer. I like collecting hammers. Can't have too many hammers. New hammers are coming along every day.

I think that it is unnecessarily limiting to think of NFB as a stand alone approach, and I was first influenced by Pete to think this way, both in reference to his multi-modal approach to ADD treatment and then his Brain Prime approach to cognitive decline. There is a lot of discussion out there about what we can use that will augment our results with NFB, CES most recently in this listserve.

So I want to add that I appreciate very much what I've learned through workshops about trauma and NFB from Sebern Fisher who combines it with psychotherapy for work with trauma. With severe trauma, I believe that addressing attachment issues in the context of a therapeutic alliance, in conjunction with NFB can be important especially with character disorders. Given Sebern Fisher's success with her approach, it merits consideration. Besel von der Kolk presented a video of her work at a trauma workshop and as a trauma expert who has little faith in talk therapy alone for trauma, he was inspired by her results to start research with NFB at his trauma center. Swingle says that once you unlock alpha and uptrain theta in the back of the head, you can start doing therapy from there.

It sounds as if Annemieke has profited, indeed, from her help from Pete. Her mention of Swingle brings up a prime example of someone who uses multiple hammers. He uses his Harmonics CDs which, used at home, are great in helping clients sustain gains between sessions and shortening treatment time, especially for raising theta and alpha in the back of the head (trauma treatment). He also uses an acupuncture spot on the wrist, stimulating it with a CES device, which also raises alpha and theta - helps with that process referred to as "unlocking alpha". And he is trained in cranio-sacral therapy and has a specialist in his office to employ it for unlocking alpha - a process he feels is invaluable. Dr. Swingle is someone who will do research on a technique to establish its utility. If his research shows that a technique can add, say, a 5% boost to the work he does with NFB, then he uses it.

Sincerely,

Vieille

January 22, 2012

Vieille, ditto what you said, well presented. RegardsNoel EastwoodPsychologist Canberra, AustraliaPh: 02 6162 0914Fax: 02 6162 0915Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.comPsychology, Counselling, NeurofeedbackBioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the

sender and delete the email.

January 24, 2012

Annemiek - my thoughts about something more inflammatory/toxin or viral-related

being at play underneath, and thus keeping your gains from holding, is somewhat

from wearing my LENS neurofeedback hat, where we look to those things if there

is no impact or holding from the LENS. And in fact, some of those patterns can

be shown on the LENS maps. Also, the Othmers have an article on their page

about the underlying body/diet factors of why and when Neurofeedback won't hold.

That said, as a survivor of intense trauma, myself, I have found that a

combination of intensive psychotherapy, neurofeedback, body-related therapies

(massage, BodyTalk, Reiki, etc.) with trustworthy people are key. Also,

building community/relationships with safe and caring people.

The brain, even when pulled to safer territories, seems to want to keep

reminding us or earlier times. Neurofeedback still may offer some benefit to

you, particularly with some adjunctive work.

Best wishes to you...

Gretchen

>

> Dear Listmates,

>

> Great discussion.

>

> On the topic of trauma and NFB, I really feel that we are reaching around in

the dark sometimes. There is a lot of variety out there in terms of people and

trauma, how we are going to heal. On the idea of hammers, NFB training is

another hammer. I like collecting hammers. Can't have too many hammers. New

hammers are coming along every day.

>

> I think that it is unnecessarily limiting to think of NFB as a stand alone

approach, and I was first influenced by Pete to think this way, both in

reference to his multi-modal approach to ADD treatment and then his Brain Prime

approach to cognitive decline. There is a lot of discussion out there about

what we can use that will augment our results with NFB, CES most recently in

this listserve.

>

> So I want to add that I appreciate very much what I've learned through

workshops about trauma and NFB from Sebern Fisher who combines it with

psychotherapy for work with trauma. With severe trauma, I believe that

addressing attachment issues in the context of a therapeutic alliance, in

conjunction with NFB can be important especially with character disorders.

Given Sebern Fisher's success with her approach, it merits consideration. Besel

von der Kolk presented a video of her work at a trauma workshop and as a trauma

expert who has little faith in talk therapy alone for trauma, he was inspired by

her results to start research with NFB at his trauma center. Swingle says

that once you unlock alpha and uptrain theta in the back of the head, you can

start doing therapy from there.

>

> It sounds as if Annemieke has profited, indeed, from her help from Pete. Her

mention of Swingle brings up a prime example of someone who uses multiple

hammers. He uses his Harmonics CDs which, used at home, are great in helping

clients sustain gains between sessions and shortening treatment time, especially

for raising theta and alpha in the back of the head (trauma treatment). He also

uses an acupuncture spot on the wrist, stimulating it with a CES device, which

also raises alpha and theta - helps with that process referred to as " unlocking

alpha " . And he is trained in cranio-sacral therapy and has a specialist in his

office to employ it for unlocking alpha - a process he feels is invaluable. Dr.

Swingle is someone who will do research on a technique to establish its utility.

If his research shows that a technique can add, say, a 5% boost to the work he

does with NFB, then he uses it.

>

> Sincerely,

> Vieille

>

January 26, 2012

Thansk for your reply Gretchen! I havent been able to find the page on the site

of the Othmers that you are referring to, could you maybe help me out there?

best wishes,

annemiek

> >

> > Dear Listmates,

> >

> > Great discussion.

> >

> > On the topic of trauma and NFB, I really feel that we are reaching around in

the dark sometimes. There is a lot of variety out there in terms of people and

trauma, how we are going to heal. On the idea of hammers, NFB training is

another hammer. I like collecting hammers. Can't have too many hammers. New

hammers are coming along every day.

> >

> > I think that it is unnecessarily limiting to think of NFB as a stand alone

approach, and I was first influenced by Pete to think this way, both in

reference to his multi-modal approach to ADD treatment and then his Brain Prime

approach to cognitive decline. There is a lot of discussion out there about

what we can use that will augment our results with NFB, CES most recently in

this listserve.

> >

> > So I want to add that I appreciate very much what I've learned through