Re: Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

[Guest guest]

Steve,Interesting observation. I often find that people in NF pay most of their attention to the "protocol" and practically none to the type of feedback -- which would seem to be the most salient aspect of the process to the client -- to the extent that it seems not that rare that the feedback seems to be in opposition to the changes that are desired. (e.g. annoying beeps used to reinforce calm states) -- (and I'm with you on country music, too).Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.NY State Licensed PsychologistOn Jan 18, 2012, at 11:35 AM, "Steve Ranicki, DC" <dr@...> wrote:

In regards to the paradoxical part of the dilemma is there a

possibility that what you are providing as a reward to her (audio/visual

feedback) isn’t rewarding to her but perhaps annoying? I personally can’t

tolerate country music and am fairly certain that if you had a country music

song as the reward for more of any particular brainwave band I would

produce less of it to create what I consider to be a reward (the end of the

offensive stimuli). If you are checking in and she is thinking about colors and

puppy dogs then the reward you are providing is probably not rewarding enough

to keep her attention. Perhaps keeping the protocol but changing the audio/visual

feedback to something she chooses (many of the TLC screens allow for a CD/DVD

that she could provide) might make a change in the training.

What does everyone think of that idea?

Steve

[Guest guest]

Gretchen,

I have heard of people whose frequencies tend to be "stuck" together and will rise or fall in concert, so for example, if you are trying to reward SMR, all beta increases. I was hoping Pete would jump in and address this, as I know I heard it from him, but I cannot recall where in my notes I have written how to respond to a situation like this.

Perhaps looking at coherences and going there first would be a good idea. I've trained people 5 min. to increase coh., then 5 min. down and had good luck reducing beta coherences (as opposed to training down always), though Pete recently suggested 15 up/15 down for a particularly stuck client of mine.

A full squash bipolar montage may also do the trick, but you'd need to go back to your assessment to see where to train that.

Tamera

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

It seems odd that this fields research has not put your idea, which appears to make sense on the surface, to the test.

Given my inability to find research that supports this common sense idea of yours I think response to feedback is much more complicated than it appears at first.

In my own case, I have found that raising theta/beta to produce deeper states of calm at o1 according to Swingles theoretical model does not work well when I can make a conscious connection between the production of a multi media event(pleasant or otherwise) and what I'm training.

However, when I train with Zengar's NCP at c3 and c4 which only produces very brief and hard to notice interruptions in the multi media events when eeg instabilities occur (increases in emergent variability) my theta/beta index responds really well(I also feel like I went real deep) even though I wasn't directly training it.

Other people I have trained responded better to more traditional models of reinforcement like Stermans where there is a clear lag between an eeg event and it's reinforcer(sound,etc) and the next reinforcement period of between .5 and 2 seconds.

I guess the moral of the story is that traditional models of how feedback works based on animal models are not encompassing many of the dynamics involved and tesingt the learing curve response to different types of feedback models with each client could make a profound difference in how fast people can produce changes in the disired direction.

Bruce

Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

In regards to the paradoxical part of the dilemma is there a possibility that what you are providing as a reward to her (audio/visual feedback) isn’t rewarding to her but perhaps annoying? I personally can’t tolerate country music and am fairly certain that if you had a country music song as the reward for more of any particular brainwave band I would produce less of it to create what I consider to be a reward (the end of the offensive stimuli). If you are checking in and she is thinking about colors and puppy dogs then the reward you are providing is probably not rewarding enough to keep her attention. Perhaps keeping the protocol but changing the audio/visual feedback to something she chooses (many of the TLC screens allow for a CD/DVD that she could provide) might make a change in the training.

What does everyone think of that idea?

Steve

[Guest guest]

Does anyone have any NFB or other success stories /suggestions for the treatment of spasmotic dysphonia From: Bruce Z. Berman <MindFitness@...> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

Hi Steve,

It seems odd that this fields research has not put your idea, which appears to make sense on the surface, to the test.

Given my inability to find research that supports this common sense idea of yours I think response to feedback is much more complicated than it appears at first.

In my own case, I have found that raising theta/beta to produce deeper states of calm at o1 according to Swingles theoretical model does not work well when I can make a conscious connection between the production of a multi media event(pleasant or otherwise) and what I'm training.

However, when I train with Zengar's NCP at c3 and c4 which only produces very brief and hard to notice interruptions in the multi media events when eeg instabilities occur (increases in emergent variability) my theta/beta index responds really well(I also feel like I went real deep) even though I wasn't directly training it.

Other people I have trained responded better to more traditional models of reinforcement like Stermans where there is a clear lag between an eeg event and it's reinforcer(sound,etc) and the next reinforcement period of between .5 and 2 seconds.

I guess the moral of the story is that traditional models of how feedback works based on animal models are not encompassing many of the dynamics involved and tesingt the learing curve response to different types of feedback models with each client could make a profound difference in how fast people can produce changes in the disired direction.

Bruce

Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

In regards to the paradoxical part of the dilemma is there a possibility that what you are providing as a reward to her (audio/visual feedback) isn’t rewarding to her but perhaps annoying? I personally can’t tolerate country music and am fairly certain that if you had a country music song as the reward for more of any particular brainwave band I would produce less of it to create what I consider to be a reward (the end of the offensive stimuli). If you are checking in and she is thinking about colors and puppy dogs then the reward you are providing is probably not rewarding enough to keep her attention. Perhaps keeping the protocol but changing the audio/visual feedback to something she chooses (many of the TLC screens allow for a CD/DVD that she could provide) might make a change in the training. What does everyone think of that idea? Steve

[Guest guest]

Gretchen,

Well, I am a bit astonished about how you tend to deal with this problem: it's a psychological issue..............and of course this will be reflected in brainpatterns..........but you cannot 'solve' it (I had rather speak of growth and transformation) by trying to change these patterns, that's the world upside-down. You might even take away her opportunaty for growth all the way...........shouldn't you just settle for facilitating this (only if she really is up to it) in stead of trying to 'cure' her?

Frans

Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

Gretchen, sounds a little like attachment issues, if she were a child or teenager then I would train to reduce anxiety at Temportal, Prefrontal and perhaps Parietal.

RegardsNoel EastwoodPsychologist Canberra, AustraliaPh: 02 6162 0914Fax: 02 6162 0915Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.comPsychology, Counselling, NeurofeedbackBioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.

IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email.

[Guest guest]

Frans,There is an old saying, " when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. "   Psychologists believe that problems are psychological, because they've learned how to deal with them that way.  Physicians believe they are chemical and can only be treated with medications.

There is a great deal of experience on this list and evidence in published studies that " psychological " problems can indeed be resolved both faster and more permanently by changing the activation patterns in the brain and body that hold them in place.  The client does not have to " process " or remember traumas.  By shifting the way the brain produces and distributes energy (which the client does for himself), problems such as anxiety, depression, addictions, obsessions/compulsions, inattention, poor emotional regulation and many others simply go away.  For most clients this is much more desirable than digging back through old experiences and feelings to try to find the " source " of a negative habit pattern--still with no assurance that it will change!

That is not to say that counseling and coaching are not important parts of helping the client (and support system) adjust to the change.  They an work together very effectively.I hope you'll be able to open your mind to learn more about this since you are a member of the group.  I work with therapists around the world who tell me stories of finally getting around to training the brains of clients they have been seeing in therapy for years--and having them " get better " in a matter of a few months.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Frans van den Berg <frans@...> wrote:

 

Gretchen,

 

Well, I am a bit astonished about how you tend to deal with this problem: it's a psychological issue..............and of course this will be reflected in brainpatterns..........but you cannot 'solve' it (I had rather speak of growth and transformation) by trying to change these patterns, that's the world upside-down. You might even take away her opportunaty for  growth all the way...........shouldn't you just settle for facilitating this (only if she really is up to it) in stead of trying to 'cure' her?

 

Frans

 

Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

 

Gretchen, sounds a little like attachment issues, if she were a child or teenager then I would train to reduce anxiety at Temportal, Prefrontal and perhaps Parietal.

 

RegardsNoel EastwoodPsychologist Canberra, AustraliaPh: 02 6162 0914Fax: 02 6162 0915Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.com

Psychology, Counselling, NeurofeedbackBioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.

IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email.

[Guest guest]

Hi Gretchen,

Have you tried providing brief interruptions in music as the feedback. It may be that on some level she is approaching this as a mastery thing(vigilance). One can't do that with very brief interruptions in music as the feedback if such interruptions are only occurring very rarely. Maybe set it to interrupt 5-6 times a minute for very brief periods.

I'm also wondering if something about temporal lobe training makes people even more prone to using vigilance and mastery as the strategy vs just enjoying the music.

Bruce

From: "blueartcat" <blueartcat@...> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 6:01:57 PMSubject: Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

I thank you all for the helpful discussion here, with this client. We had a very rich discussion about her process today, and I believe it will help facilitate some more growth and movement with her, on a number of levels.Frans, I don't believe in "solving" anything with clients, but rather accompanying them on their path to finding more ease and flexibility and wholeness in life - an individual journey for each of us. I'm sorry you read my words differently than that.Many thanks again for this supportive community!Take care,Gretchen >> Dear Group:> > I have a client who has a rich background in yoga, and both teaches it and practices various self-awareness and self-relaxation techniques much of each day. She is sweet to work with, however, the brain-training stuff is being extraordinally difficult, on some levels.> > We are training a temporal windowed squash, and also a right parietal windowed squash, based on the TLC and symptoms. She's got lots of beta going on. > > However, in the training, her readings/graphs quickly show an initial settling in the brain, and then start showing a paradoxical response to what the protocol is set for, and from what I'm used to seeing with others on these protocols: her high beta starts rising, and ultimately, everything else does, too. This happens in other protocols I've tried, too.> > When I check in, she has wondered off into colors, and puppy dog barks, and orbs and other wonderful creative things...> > We're working on various symptoms, but the symptoms of falling asleep have improved very much, but the staying asleep has not. I kind of equate it to the graphs I see of her trainings; an initial settling, but then much busyness. > > Her history equates with this, too - a "military brat" who never spent more than 2 years in one place, and had to be on her best behavior all the time. Her in-session responses seem like "quiet rebellions" and discomfort with trusting she could stay in one place for long.> > So, I've started doing training in 3-minute increments, where she can check in and talk about her experience, and we can re-focus back to the feedback again (which often goes out of the picture for her). This is helping. And teaching her to "stay" for a few minutes at a time. She says she feels resistance from her head to toe in this, but thinks it is a good process.> > Another side note is that when she closes her eyes, she automatically wants/needs to turn her head completely to the left.> > The client talks about wanting to go retire/retreat to a cave like the great yogis. I believe much of her efforts are to bypass her suffering, rather than find ways to walk through it. I'm not a therapist, and have offered up names of brilliant ones I work with, to travel this special journey with her. Not interested.> > Does anyone have any thoughts on coaching here - some ways I can better coach the neurofeedback end of things? Some ways of staying with the experience rather than wandering away to the cave? I sense there may be trauma here, and that slow, trustworthy experiences may be the best.> > Thanks for any thoughts you might have...> Gretchen>

[Guest guest]

Dear Uwe, , Gretchen e.a.

Thanks with being patient with me............I appreciate your comments and I realize I have to be open minded.......Being a psychologist I also believe it is not necessary to go through old trauma etc., but I have always believed that it is necesarry to have a shift in consciousness/awareness/perspective/thinking/attitude first (in matters like self-esteem, acceptance, communication etc.) in able to feel better emotionally. Just talking is mostly not enough, a part of my work was what in old culture was called 'soul retrieval': in this non-rational way things changed at a deep level.............so it's a bit a paradigma shift for me - that the reason of my resistance, it's a big thing for me! Perhaps you could help me out with this. I do believe what writes about the results, and if I was not somehow curious about NF and CES I wouln't be on this forum, but I don't know yet how to 'deal' with it......do you understand my dilemma? Or is it so that also with NF clients there is also a shift in perspective in diffenent areas like mentioned above just by changing brainwaves or by the client-therapist interactions? Anyhow, there is also this non-rational aspect in NF.................

In my study I had to read a lot of books dealing with the fact that research had shown that just about all therapeutic interventions on the average helped, none was better than the other (despite the fact that therapists had different theoritical explanations for why it worked and said they did different things to accomplish this), and it was suggested that there might be common ingredients that were responsible. (research was nessecary to find out which interventions was most suitable for which client). Do you have ideas about this - which client/complaints can benifit most from NF and CES?

greetings

Frans

Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

Gretchen, sounds a little like attachment issues, if she were a child or teenager then I would train to reduce anxiety at Temportal, Prefrontal and perhaps Parietal.

RegardsNoel EastwoodPsychologist Canberra, AustraliaPh: 02 6162 0914Fax: 02 6162 0915Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.comPsychology, Counselling, NeurofeedbackBioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.

IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email.

[Guest guest]

You are talking, Pete, about a 'multi-tool' approach................not only the hammer!

Re: Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

,You can change the patterns, but I've stressed from the very beginning that this fractures the homeostasis in the client's view of himself, role in familie(s) and work situations. I think great trainers are more than great technicians. I have found that they are great coaches, guiding the client to a new awareness of himself, perhaps helping to open a space in his support systems into which he can change. The ideal is to train multiple persons from the same system (mom/kid; both spouses, etc), so as long as the homeostasis is disrupted, you move as much furniture as you can so the brain/social system/mental systems re-stabilize in a generally better place.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 2:10 PM, MICHAEL <mpsych44m@...> wrote:

Love your very clear and easy to understand explanation, Pete! Contrary to what is often heard about NFB not being a "stand alone" treatment, this explantion suggests otherwise,at least in this example.Mike

[Guest guest]

Annemiek,One of the things I learned when I started working the way I do now--trying to support people like yourself whom I have never met--is that it's very different from working with people when we're in an office together, and I'm seeing them and their brains real time.  Especially when, as was your case, the client is trying the extremely difficult task of being trainer and client at the same time, there are major elements to the training that I simply can't know as I could one-on-one.

You are not the only person I've worked with who didn't get much help from me--and that includes people I worked with directly in my office.  But you were/are very motivated and found something that helped you make positive changes.  I'm sorry that it hasn't " held " more than a few weeks.  I usually see that as an indication that you were training up too far from the foundational brain pattern.  I can't recall if you were getting results with bipolar one-channel training or what it was.  That approach has long been characterized by producing transitory changes.

I can only tell you that I've also worked with a dozen or more clients who had severe trauma histories and seen them change themselves within 25-30 sessions and (years later in a number of the cases) was able to verify that the effect lasted.  Doesn't happen for everyone, but then nothing does.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 11:18 AM, tanguerichica <annemiekh@...> wrote:

Now this is an interesting topic for investigation, because I have consulted with Pete and with another well-known neurofeedback-therapist about this problem and from what I understand, they relate the return of my complaints to the fact that I still have all this traumatic stuff lurking beneath the surface. The other neurofeedback-therapist has good hopes that my complaints will be more structurally being taken care of when I work through the traumatic experiences and integrate them.

So I would really like to hear Pete's thoughts on this subject - I can totally agree with him regarding the power of neurofeedback to deeply change patterns of feeling and behaving without going through traumatic stuff, however I my case, the results just dont hold and apparently, this could be related to the unresolved traumatic issues. I am also very interested if Pete can say anything about this on a general level..

[Guest guest]

My two cents worth on why things don't always happen - the organic brain

(Three-Pound Enigma by Moffett) makes a decision for reasons we neither

know or understand. Half a second later we are aware of it. Such books as

Brain Tricks (Weiner), Battling the Inner Dummy (Weiner), Descartes Error

(Damasio), Mistakes Were Made (but not by me)(Aronson), Why People

Believe in Weird Things (Shermer), Buyology (Lindstrom), Blink

(Gladwell). Inside the Criminal Mind (Samenow), The Science of Fear

(Gardner), etc. all elucidate the unreasonableness of some decisions by

our brains. Even worse, we tend to rationalize and defend those decisions

far beyond reason. The triune brain model - reptile, mammal, human - has

the human part (70%) of the brain trying to control the other 30%

(reptile and mammal), and sometimes failing miserably. Freud's concept of

ID is more real than we care to admit. We throw stones into the well of

our consciousness; we hear them hit the sides, but we have yet to hear

them hit bottom. Hang in there - 11 years post stroke we had a man in our

brain injury and stroke support group regain use of his totally paralyzed

hand when the brain finally got rewired. Your brain may take as long...or

not.//Peder

____________________________________________________________

53 Year Old Mom Looks 33

The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4f19b142c9f7b49846bst04duc

[Guest guest]

Pete, Unless I'm missing something in what Annemiek has written(please correct me if I'm in error here Annemiek) I must challange the idea that you have put fouth below that Annemiek did not get much help for several reasons.

1: According to W Porges, in his book, The Plyvagal theory: Neurophysiologycal foundatins of emotions attachment communicatgion self-regulation, "retuning of autonomic regulation is key.

2: Annemiek has done this multiple times within the context of her training frequencies and durations.

3: The fact that her nervous system continues to return to a more threat based state when not engaging in NF any more is not a sighn of failure but rather something that is to be expected and subsumed in continuing to learn how to re tune her autonomic nervous system to threat free based states of joy and social engagement when the envioronment is indeed safe to do this.

Please not the the significance of the word "retune". Annemiek has learned to do it quite well durring her NF as long it continues at x frequency and Y duration. Such frequencys and durations can be titrated down until learning how to do it with much less and ultimately no NF is needed, if that is required is still possible. Who is to say how long such a process is supposed to take with any given individual at any given time in their lives.

A recent client of mine has used her training and coaching with me to go from dependence on benzo's to only sleep a couple of hours, with difficulty returning to sleep and waking up alot to now being able to sleep without benzo's for 7 hours most nights and get back to sleep within 10 minutes. She, at first needed sessions every week, has moved into maitaining progress every two weeks and now is trying once a month.

Of course NF is not the only think I did with her. I taught her multiple other methods of autonomic regulation that she practices at home and also ways to think about the journey to better sleep in ways that will keep her in applying and learning the concepts in times greater stress.

Bruce

Annemaiek has learned to "retune her neural circuts" ( W. Prges) from Re: Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

Annemiek,One of the things I learned when I started working the way I do now--trying to support people like yourself whom I have never met--is that it's very different from working with people when we're in an office together, and I'm seeing them and their brains real time. Especially when, as was your case, the client is trying the extremely difficult task of being trainer and client at the same time, there are major elements to the training that I simply can't know as I could one-on-one.You are not the only person I've worked with who didn't get much help from me--and that includes people I worked with directly in my office. But you were/are very motivated and found something that helped you make positive changes. I'm sorry that it hasn't "held" more than a few weeks. I usually see that as an indication that you were training up too far from the foundational brain pattern. I can't recall if you were getting results with bipolar one-channel training or what it was. That approach has long been characterized by producing transitory changes.I can only tell you that I've also worked with a dozen or more clients who had severe trauma histories and seen them change themselves within 25-30 sessions and (years later in a number of the cases) was able to verify that the effect lasted. Doesn't happen for everyone, but then nothing does.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 11:18 AM, tanguerichica <annemiekh@...> wrote:

Now this is an interesting topic for investigation, because I have consulted with Pete and with another well-known neurofeedback-therapist about this problem and from what I understand, they relate the return of my complaints to the fact that I still have all this traumatic stuff lurking beneath the surface. The other neurofeedback-therapist has good hopes that my complaints will be more structurally being taken care of when I work through the traumatic experiences and integrate them.

So I would really like to hear Pete's thoughts on this subject - I can totally agree with him regarding the power of neurofeedback to deeply change patterns of feeling and behaving without going through traumatic stuff, however I my case, the results just dont hold and apparently, this could be related to the unresolved traumatic issues. I am also very interested if Pete can say anything about this on a general level..

[Guest guest]

I like the way you worded that, Pete. I'm saving it to help me explain this to clients.

From: "pvdtlc" <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 7:33:29 AMSubject: Re: Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

Frans,Perhaps an example will help make more sense of this:A child begins to undergo abuse at the hands of someone close to him/herThe experience is very painful, but the child can neither escape (flight) or overcome (fight) the abuserThe brain responds to this threat by becoming hyper-vigilant to avoid the abuser.This hypervigilance is programmed into the brain by increasing the responsiveness of the amygdala--the brain's smoke alarm, the finger that hits the hypothalamic button to turn on fight-or-flight, and the center for fear and rage (among other things.) The amygdala becomes hypersensitized--neurons firing fast nearly all the time--and that pattern becomes the stable way the brain operates over time--wasting a huge amount of energy.The client's situation changes, and there is no longer a threat of abuse.The brain can't shift patterns easily.It maintains a state of hyper-vigilanceThe protective response adopted long ago now keeps her in the very state it was designed to protect her against.Neurofeedback can see that pattern in a brain--very high temporal lobe activation at rest-. We can nudge the brain into new activation patterns and help them stabilize. When the EEG signature of the brain changes, we see the behavior and mood begin to change as well. It can happen in one session--the experience, not the stable change--though it won't last long. But training more sessions, the stable pattern changes and the person changes as well.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Frans van den Berg <frans@...> wrote:

Dear Uwe, , Gretchen e.a.

Thanks with being patient with me............I appreciate your comments and I realize I have to be open minded.......Being a psychologist I also believe it is not necessary to go through old trauma etc., but I have always believed that it is necesarry to have a shift in consciousness/awareness/perspective/thinking/attitude first (in matters like self-esteem, acceptance, communication etc.) in able to feel better emotionally. Just talking is mostly not enough, a part of my work was what in old culture was called 'soul retrieval': in this non-rational way things changed at a deep level.............so it's a bit a paradigma shift for me - that the reason of my resistance, it's a big thing for me! Perhaps you could help me out with this. I do believe what writes about the results, and if I was not somehow curious about NF and CES I wouln't be on this forum, but I don't know yet how to 'deal' with it......do you understand my dilemma? Or is it so that also with NF clients there is also a shift in perspective in diffenent areas like mentioned above just by changing brainwaves or by the client-therapist interactions? Anyhow, there is also this non-rational aspect in NF.................

In my study I had to read a lot of books dealing with the fact that research had shown that just about all therapeutic interventions on the average helped, none was better than the other (despite the fact that therapists had different theoritical explanations for why it worked and said they did different things to accomplish this), and it was suggested that there might be common ingredients that were responsible. (research was nessecary to find out which interventions was most suitable for which client). Do you have ideas about this - which client/complaints can benifit most from NF and CES?

greetings

Frans

Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

Gretchen, sounds a little like attachment issues, if she were a child or teenager then I would train to reduce anxiety at Temportal, Prefrontal and perhaps Parietal.

RegardsNoel EastwoodPsychologist Canberra, AustraliaPh: 02 6162 0914Fax: 02 6162 0915Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.comPsychology, Counselling, NeurofeedbackBioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.

IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email.

[Guest guest]

Ditto. That was a great example and explanation. It offers logic to the statement which I have seen, elsewhere, that neurofeedback can often achieve much quicker, more effective, results than can psychotherapy. For someone like myself, who is new to all of this, still trying to figure it all out, that kind of explanation is valuable. Thank you. --Ray Cole From: anchorpoint@...Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:17:44 +0000Subject: Re: Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

I like the way you worded that, Pete. I'm saving it to help me explain this to clients.

From: "pvdtlc" <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 7:33:29 AMSubject: Re: Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

Frans,Perhaps an example will help make more sense of this:A child begins to undergo abuse at the hands of someone close to him/herThe experience is very painful, but the child can neither escape (flight) or overcome (fight) the abuserThe brain responds to this threat by becoming hyper-vigilant to avoid the abuser.This hypervigilance is programmed into the brain by increasing the responsiveness of the amygdala--the brain's smoke alarm, the finger that hits the hypothalamic button to turn on fight-or-flight, and the center for fear and rage (among other things.) The amygdala becomes hypersensitized--neurons firing fast nearly all the time--and that pattern becomes the stable way the brain operates over time--wasting a huge amount of energy.The client's situation changes, and there is no longer a threat of abuse.The brain can't shift patterns easily.It maintains a state of hyper-vigilanceThe protective response adopted long ago now keeps her in the very state it was designed to protect her against.Neurofeedback can see that pattern in a brain--very high temporal lobe activation at rest-. We can nudge the brain into new activation patterns and help them stabilize. When the EEG signature of the brain changes, we see the behavior and mood begin to change as well. It can happen in one session--the experience, not the stable change--though it won't last long. But training more sessions, the stable pattern changes and the person changes as well.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Frans van den Berg <frans@...> wrote:

Dear Uwe, , Gretchen e.a.

Thanks with being patient with me............I appreciate your comments and I realize I have to be open minded.......Being a psychologist I also believe it is not necessary to go through old trauma etc., but I have always believed that it is necesarry to have a shift in consciousness/awareness/perspective/thinking/attitude first (in matters like self-esteem, acceptance, communication etc.) in able to feel better emotionally. Just talking is mostly not enough, a part of my work was what in old culture was called 'soul retrieval': in this non-rational way things changed at a deep level.............so it's a bit a paradigma shift for me - that the reason of my resistance, it's a big thing for me! Perhaps you could help me out with this. I do believe what writes about the results, and if I was not somehow curious about NF and CES I wouln't be on this forum, but I don't know yet how to 'deal' with it......do you understand my dilemma? Or is it so that also with NF clients there is also a shift in perspective in diffenent areas like mentioned above just by changing brainwaves or by the client-therapist interactions? Anyhow, there is also this non-rational aspect in NF.................

In my study I had to read a lot of books dealing with the fact that research had shown that just about all therapeutic interventions on the average helped, none was better than the other (despite the fact that therapists had different theoritical explanations for why it worked and said they did different things to accomplish this), and it was suggested that there might be common ingredients that were responsible. (research was nessecary to find out which interventions was most suitable for which client). Do you have ideas about this - which client/complaints can benifit most from NF and CES?

greetings

Frans

Re: Coaching Advice - Stubborn/Paradoxical Brain

Gretchen, sounds a little like attachment issues, if she were a child or teenager then I would train to reduce anxiety at Temportal, Prefrontal and perhaps Parietal.

RegardsNoel EastwoodPsychologist Canberra, AustraliaPh: 02 6162 0914Fax: 02 6162 0915Web: www.learnwiseaustralia.comPsychology, Counselling, NeurofeedbackBioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session in Bioexplorer, Neurofeedback systems.

IMPORTANT:This email remains the property of Noel Eastwood Psychology. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, distribution or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email.