Re: Abolishing Corporations take 2

[Guest guest]

Additionally I will liken it to this experience. My eldest daughter

was born to me when I was a teen. Her father made promises to me and

betrayed my trust when he found that sex led to pregnancy. I choose

to keep my daughter and he made his position clear. He was never gong

to be intrested in being a hather or even human to her. True to his

word he has been a class a JERK. with all the caps, but I have always

known what his position, no back and forth or soul serching (although

my daughter tried to reach her dad's heart) He pays child support and

is a jerk, but he never lied about being anything more than that.

Does that make him a good person NO. Does it make him honest Yes.

likely he isn't the greatest husband or dad but you know where you

stand. Let the woman who married him beware, She however might be

lying to herself

[Guest guest]

Mmmmmmm I actually agree with you, I much prefer to know where I stand

with people, even if that truth may be painful, not nice. The truth may

be painful, but it's better than a kife in the back :-)

" Let the woman who married him beware, She however might be lying to

herself "

Now this gets me wondering. I often see the good in people, not always

a good trait, especially if most of what makes the person up is bad. I

often see people misinterpretted too - so will often give people the

benefit of the doubt.

However I don't think I can take a man and change him, which leads me

to wonder - do some women believe such? Especially when it comes to

abusive partners - often the woman wants to believe the man will change

because of her love, she also believes that the man loves her - to me

is odd. How much can someone love you if they are abusing you? Maybe

some men do change, but I am thinking that such is rare.

>

> Additionally I will liken it to this experience. My eldest daughter

> was born to me when I was a teen. Her father made promises to me and

> betrayed my trust when he found that sex led to pregnancy. I choose

> to keep my daughter and he made his position clear. He was never

gong

> to be intrested in being a hather or even human to her. True to his

> word he has been a class a JERK. with all the caps, but I have

always

> known what his position, no back and forth or soul serching (although

> my daughter tried to reach her dad's heart) He pays child support

and

> is a jerk, but he never lied about being anything more than that.

> Does that make him a good person NO. Does it make him honest Yes.

> likely he isn't the greatest husband or dad but you know where you

> stand. Let the woman who married him beware, She however might be

> lying to herself

>

[Guest guest]

yes,some do. Abusers do not always show their "bad" side while dating. What tends to surprrise me is that the ones who DO show signs have women who willingly go into the relationship. If you love something, set it free! So it is with books. See what I mean atwww.bookcrossing.com/friend/nheckoblogcritics.orghttp://notesfromnancy.blogspot.com Heckofreelance proofreadernancygailus@...

Re: Abolishing Corporations take 2

Mmmmmmm I actually agree with you, I much prefer to know where I stand with people, even if that truth may be painful, not nice. The truth may be painful, but it's better than a kife in the back :-)"Let the woman who married him beware, She however might be lying to herself :)"Now this gets me wondering. I often see the good in people, not always a good trait, especially if most of what makes the person up is bad. I often see people misinterpretted too - so will often give people the benefit of the doubt.However I don't think I can take a man and change him, which leads me to wonder - do some women believe such? Especially when it comes to abusive partners - often the woman wants to believe the man will change because of her love, she also believes that the man loves her - to me is odd. How much can someone love you if they are abusing you? Maybe some men do change, but I am thinking that such is

rare.>> Additionally I will liken it to this experience. My eldest daughter > was born to me when I was a teen. Her father made promises to me and > betrayed my trust when he found that sex led to pregnancy. I choose > to keep my daughter and he made his position clear. He was never gong > to be intrested in being a hather or even human to her. True to his > word he has been a class a JERK. with all the caps, but I have always > known what his position, no back and forth or soul serching (although > my daughter tried to reach her dad's heart) He pays child support and > is a jerk, but he never lied about being anything more than that. > Does that make him a good person NO. Does it make him honest Yes.

> likely he isn't the greatest husband or dad but you know where you > stand. Let the woman who married him beware, She however might be > lying to herself >

[Guest guest]

's tagline: " If you love something, set it free! So it is with

books. See what I mean at

> www.bookcrossing.com/friend/nhecko

> blogcritics.org

> http://notesfromnancy.blogspot.com

, since other people have been asked to refrain from advertising

their business (Kate Gladstone being an example), I would think that

it would also pertain to your signature. Maybe I'm overstepping my

bounds here as a member, but I think that fairness is important.

Either everyone advertises their business or no one advertises their

business and if everyone advertises their business, then this forum

becomes just another advertising place where commercialism rules the

day and getting away from the NT world is impossible.

Raven

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:42:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, healingintoauthenticity@... writes:

Women have been brought up in a corrupt society. they have not been really brought up to like and want nice men.

This is true. When I was in high school years ago we had foreign students and they remarked that American girls were easy (meaning sexually) but very spoiled. I've heard this in other places too that so many American girls are easy but are so chaotic and unstable that they aren't long term material. I can see some merit to this based on the way so many women I know act.

It is also true that they don't like nice men. Being nice is seen as being weak or gay. If you aren't loud, obnoxious and love to party and fight, then something is wrong with you. Sure they will date a nice guy, but only to use him to get nice presents and things.

I've been places where I have heard women talking about men, sizing up their possessions, earning, position in whatever agency and so on. If men were sizing up women like that they would get sued for harassment or something.

When I was in college, I had a few girls act nice, but it was to get something. One stunning girl was flirting hot and heavy with me outside of class one day trying to get me to "help" her with a paper. Of course she really wanted me to write it for her. What amazed me was how so many of the guys were looking on with pure jealousy. It was plain to me what she was up to. I almost got in serious trouble for this, but I said I would but I wanted payment up front. She asked what I meant and I said I wanted what she was promising up front, then she would get her paper. She nearly slapped me. Turns out she got some sucker to write it for her, though if she paid up I don't know.

A couple of others were nice to me, but didn't like to be seen alone with me, like walking across campus together or whatever.

Something I do find amusing is that several times while waiting at a train station, girls or younger women (meaning in their 20s) have sat down near me. In each case they never said anything beyond hello, but stayed near me as long as I stayed where I was. I find this amusing because it was like they were using me to shield them from other men by pretending to be with me, but at the same time they barely acknowledged my presence. Other times I have seen the girls flock around Mr. Charisma and compete for his attention. So when they don't feel safe or want to be left alone, they would come to me, but when they wanted to play they found someone else.

I've also had girls or younger women walk close behind me when I've been touring. They liked to seem like they were with someone, but if I stopped or tried to talk to them, it through them for a loop and they would go on their way.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/3/2006 8:41:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

My experience with (up until now) has been that as much as women may claim it, they do NOT like nice men. At least for the 8 or 9 women I have dated this truth holds.

My experience bears this out too. I've heard them talk about wanting nice men but avoiding them while swarming over the jerks.

[Guest guest]

Some men will never change.

However, one issue that does not appear to get much press is that if

the relationship is dysfunctional in the first place, both the man and

the woman will feed off each other's anger and turn it back on each

other cyclically. Once the relationships end, it can and does happen

that eachpartner may move on to find new partners that are more

compatible, and there is hardly any dysfunctional behavior at all.

One of the things my counselor taught me is that good relationships

are ones where both partners accept themselves and each other, and

they admit to what they are looking for in a partner and go for it.

Sometimes dysfuctional relationships occur when partners choose who

they THINK really want, but cannot accept those partners anyway

because they doing so may go against their values somehow. For

instance, maybe they want a partner who is sexually knowledgable, yet

they cannot accept that such a person may have an extensive sexual

history due to moral issues. For such a person, it would be better to

choose what they REALLY want (but don't realize they want): Someone

with a similar past who may NOT be sexually knowledgable.

Tom

Administrator

" However I don't think I can take a man and change him, which leads me

to wonder - do some women believe such? Especially when it comes to

abusive partners - often the woman wants to believe the man will change

because of her love, she also believes that the man loves her - to me

is odd. How much can someone love you if they are abusing you? Maybe

some men do change, but I am thinking that such is rare. "

[Guest guest]

Dear Tom,

It is wondeful that you have found a good companion that respects you and is

someone

that you can value for who she is.

Women have been brought up in a corrupt society. they have not been really

brought up

to like and want nice men. I watch my brother be taken advantage of - he is

Aspie - he

even said to his current gal that she wanted the farm and the life that he has

made (she

chased him) - but that she didn't want him . . . she agreed. But he still is

fence sitting . .

She is an intelligent person, educated and has great qualities - when we discuss

this

ongoing emotional abuse my brother and I quickly state, " We are not

judging_______, we

love her . . but is this correct behavior? "

I am supporting your point. I don't feel that most women are ready to be

companioned

and really cared for.

On the other hand most guys don't want a woman for who she really is . . . they

don't want

a companion who takes responsiblity for herself . . .

It is a a very difficult situation today for men and women.

Thanks.

Deborah

>

> " Abusers do not always show their " bad " side while dating. What tends

> to surprrise me is that the ones who DO show signs have women who

> willingly go into the relationship. "

>

[Guest guest]

" On the other hand most guys don't want a woman for who she really

is . . . they don't want a companion who takes responsiblity for

herself . . . "

This statement is true, and not true.

It's NOT true because most guys DO want a companion who takes

responsiblity for herself.

But that sort of woman is incompatible with the drop dead gorgeous

model who puts out on demand that most guys also want.

So your statement is also true.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

I knew about this stuff ever since preschool. I remembered going to girls who were pretty. It's a curse. They grow up looking at men as objects because all of their lives they've been catered to and not loved. Love is tough. Being catered to is not love. Therefore, they won't ever have the joy of experiencing love and they'll grow sicker with each decade. VISIGOTH@... wrote: In a message dated 11/3/2006 8:41:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

no_reply writes: My experience with (up until now) has been that as much as women may claim it, they do NOT like nice men. At least for the 8 or 9 women I have dated this truth holds. My experience bears this out too. I've heard them talk about wanting nice men but avoiding them while swarming over the jerks.

Cheap Talk? Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

What you describe is terrible. It is why for many years I did not have women

friends -

growing up I played with my male cousins and brother and the boys in the

neighborhood -

we had one female friend - who we treasured - because she too, was a " Tom boy. "

I loved

to learn but I did not like school as I suddenly had to wear a dress and that

very " insulting "

act caused me, in fifties St. Louis, to be consigned to the girl's side and not

be allowed a

school to play baseball, tag, catch and what I considered, " Real Play. " The

only saving

grace in Kindergarten was the only black girl in school befriended me and took

me under

her wing. Of course, being Aspie, I had no idea why the other girls wouldn't

speak to her.

She was so nice and kind.

I personally was horrified by the girl's games - they seemed to be centered on

usng the

monkey bars to do flips specifically to show their underpants - and I found that

rediculous

and horrifying. Jumping rope to rhymes seemed pointless. When my friend left

for

Chicago a the end of kintergarden I never had another friend in that school. I

would stand

next to the teachers on the playground and watch the " Gender Clubs " , wondering

what

brought such a Division. AT home I would thankfully free myself from the

confines of the

stupid costume that took away my rights to do real things - in my experience -

and get on

with life with the neighborhood dogs and boys. My brother, a fellow Aspie and

I, had a

wordless communication and would spend hours together - we slept in the same

room till

I was seven and often afterwards till I hit puberty and the real gender clubbing

began.

Fifties television offered very Gender clubbed shows - men were cowboys and

heros - as

were our baseball players, wise farmers, working dads who did interesting things

- or they

were bad guys or gangster rats. But they had a wide range of choices. Women

were either

house moms who baked cookies in shirt waist dresses and smiled while doing

laundry and

cleaning windows as it gave them such pleasure to do so - or they were sluts -

Bar Room

Miss Kitty was a wise crackin, bar room gal, who had her own career - which I

could not

figure out what it was - and was best friends with Matt Dylan, the sheriff, on

Gun Smoke.

But basically women were portrayed as fairly stupid, or simple and pure, and no

where

without men. Our fifties mothers were basically the same - only I didn't see

the

neighborhood women smiling while they did the enless chores of laundry, child

care,

ironing (this could take two days as the sheets and everything had to be ironed)

- mending

(even in middle class families everything was mended and many of our clothes and

mittens

were sewn and or knitted - cheap clothing in an endless variety was not

availible as it is

today) - the " ettiquitte " of the time said that windows were washed once a week

- even

when they had maids the women that i knew and saw were always cooking, cleaning,

sewing and the expected to change into nice clothes with dinner on the table and

a

cocktail when their husbands, our fathers were home. I refused from early

childhood to

play with dolls - everyone remarked at it - but who wanted to turn into the

drudges that I

saw all around me???? I loved playing with our baby cousins - as did all of my

male

cousins and brother - but they were real beings, not plastic substitues trying

to enslave

my mind into something that I didn't want.

I remember my last summer before puberty. I didn't, honestly, understand what

puberty

was. I remember playing in the vast woods of Connecticut with our dogs, my

brother and

our two neighborhood friends, brothers, who we spent all waking play time with

for three

years. We would wear shorts and sneakers, playing as boys do, shirtless. I

remember a

feeling of golden light being on everything - and I kept sensing that I had to

cherish every

single breath - every toad we caught, every thing bike ride we took - all the

forts we built

- all the discussions as to whether Wolf Man was stronger than enstein,

etc.

And that winter I went to seventh grade and started to grow a bust. Not only

was I

friendless at school but my body was betraying me - or so I felt. Somehow in my

innocence I just felt that one grew up to be who one was. Not that I ever

wanted a penis -

never did - nor was I gay - But there were no images and role models of women

who were

really doing things AND having families. AND all the girls seemed organized

into getting

boyfriends. The word being " getting. " We had to take make up classes as part

of our

schooling - and all the girls would titter on and on as to who were the best

boys. I just

could not imagine it - but I was Aspie. Now, I look back and seee that it was

very, very

hard for any of the NT girls to resist programming that began from the moment

they were

born.

Girls are brought up to think that they are nothing without a man. And a man

must be

" caught. " I realize that there are a number of girls that escape that - and

young people in

their teens, twenties and thirties have had role models of women who have

somehow

dropped the " gender clubbing " in favor of being a person - just as there are men

who have

dropped that. One of the things that I think may separate Aspies is that we are

not as

easily programmed - we may hold beliefs that have been certainly colored by the

over

culture - but if given an opportunity to think them out - and discuss them - we

can

change our opinions.

I don't think that deprogramming people as to what is gender based - works for

most

adults. We have to get the children now. But look what is happening as the

discussions

on this board have reflected - while there are role models for young girls to

follow of

women who are both women and doing something - astronauts, soccer players,

doctors,

scientists - as well as mothers and wives - the " retro " programming that renders

them

useless - literally turns them into Stepford Wives - is hitting at the young

girls even

stronger than previous. Bras and Slut dancing poles for six year

olds??????!!!!!!! There are

lines of purses and make up that they market to small girls - between this and

giving

them dolls we are warping their minds! I personaly feel that giving girls dolls

and kitchen

sets at two and three is more dangerous than giving children toy guns - YES that

is

inflamatory in a way - but I grew up in the fifites and although I am Quaker

now, and do

not carry a gun! - we were taught early on not to point guns, even toy guns and

that guns

kill - although my father was extremely violent behind closed doors - as were

many men

given the pressure cooker lives they were in and that they had PTSD from World

War Two

that was undiagnosed and unresolved as that generation of men were expected to

come

home and just shut up and work! - but gun and knife violence in domestic

situations was

rare . . . . because we used those things and were taught from knee high to a

duck respect

and proper use . . .

anyway . . . all of this is to say that the situation with most women does not

make for a

good situation for most men seeking real companionship and marriage. Many women

do

see men as Big Game to be hunted. I am very sorry for all that you and other

men here

have gone through in regards to that.

Thanks.

Deborah

In very simple, Fifties and early sixties television

>

>

> In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:42:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> healingintoauthenticity@... writes:

>

> Women have been brought up in a corrupt society. they have not been really

> brought up

> to like and want nice men.

>

>

> This is true. When I was in high school years ago we had foreign students

> and they remarked that American girls were easy (meaning sexually) but very

> spoiled. I've heard this in other places too that so many American girls are

> easy but are so chaotic and unstable that they aren't long term material. I

can

> see some merit to this based on the way so many women I know act.

>

> It is also true that they don't like nice men. Being nice is seen as being

> weak or gay. If you aren't loud, obnoxious and love to party and fight, then

> something is wrong with you. Sure they will date a nice guy, but only to use

> him to get nice presents and things.

>

> I've been places where I have heard women talking about men, sizing up their

> possessions, earning, position in whatever agency and so on. If men were

> sizing up women like that they would get sued for harassment or something.

>

> When I was in college, I had a few girls act nice, but it was to get

> something. One stunning girl was flirting hot and heavy with me outside of

class one

> day trying to get me to " help " her with a paper. Of course she really wanted

> me to write it for her. What amazed me was how so many of the guys were

> looking on with pure jealousy. It was plain to me what she was up to. I

almost got

> in serious trouble for this, but I said I would but I wanted payment up

> front. She asked what I meant and I said I wanted what she was promising up

> front, then she would get her paper. She nearly slapped me. Turns out she got

some

> sucker to write it for her, though if she paid up I don't know.

>

> A couple of others were nice to me, but didn't like to be seen alone with

> me, like walking across campus together or whatever.

>

> Something I do find amusing is that several times while waiting at a train

> station, girls or younger women (meaning in their 20s) have sat down near me.

> In each case they never said anything beyond hello, but stayed near me as

long

> as I stayed where I was. I find this amusing because it was like they were

> using me to shield them from other men by pretending to be with me, but at

the

> same time they barely acknowledged my presence. Other times I have seen the

> girls flock around Mr. Charisma and compete for his attention. So when they

> don't feel safe or want to be left alone, they would come to me, but when

they

> wanted to play they found someone else.

>

> I've also had girls or younger women walk close behind me when I've been

> touring. They liked to seem like they were with someone, but if I stopped or

> tried to talk to them, it through them for a loop and they would go on their

> way.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Now this is where it gets interesting - I have found quite a few guys

have been attracted to me they say because I have my own mind, my own

ideas - can think for myself, but further into the relationship this

becomes a problem. The thing they say attracted them to me then

becomes a stumbling block because I don't always agree with them -

the ability to think for oneself becomes a double edged sword (so to

speak).

I have found this to happen in some friendships too - the person

initially likes me for my ability to think and question and not just

automatically accept things I am told and then they expect me to

believe without question something they tell me, purely because I am

thier friend and should not question them. Is this a non aspie

thing?, where different rules apply to/in different

situations/people? I don't understand why it should be one rule for

one and a different rule for another.

>

> " On the other hand most guys don't want a woman for who she really

> is . . . they don't want a companion who takes responsiblity for

> herself . . . "

>

>

> This statement is true, and not true.

>

> It's NOT true because most guys DO want a companion who takes

> responsiblity for herself.

>

> But that sort of woman is incompatible with the drop dead gorgeous

> model who puts out on demand that most guys also want.

>

> So your statement is also true.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

when you wrote your post I had to think . . " did I write that? " I curently have

an attack of

Chronic Bronchitus, am feverish and did lots of posting last night so I was

wondering what

I had not remembered posting . . .

I did not know how to answer Tom because I know that there are many men who do

want a

companion and he is one. In many ways, my AS brother is that way too - truly

appreciating women and then he often gets stuck being manipulated by women who

are

used to " strong, Marboro type men that they have been trained since birth to

manipulate "

I was wondering if since I am 54 it is a generational thing. As a very strong

Aspie, but

" passing " by the " outward beauty " standards when I was younger - men thought I

was

some sort of wild, intelligent muse who could hike, camp, move furniture, build

things,

discuss politics, religion, psychology and yet at 97 pounds and 5'1, blond, blue

eyed I

matched some sort of standard they were looking for . . .

But with men my age and older they would suddenly want a psychological mother -

not a

buddy and work mate in the world. It was as if a button had been pressed. I do

think that

this is changing = and knowing my brother and other aspies who are younger -

this is so.

But I must say that my older Aspie friends and uncles expected a woman - my

aunts and

my friends, their wives - to create and keep a home, take care of the children

while they

lived in their own world and dropped in when they felt like it. My one friend,

72, has been

around his wife since he was 1 and she was three - they have been married for

more than

fifty years - they have seven children, many grandchildren (some aspie) - but

his idea of

having the family over is for me and him to sit in his warehouse - sometimes

moving

things with the back hoe or fork lift, - selling dirt, gravel and dog food -

playing with the

dogs that he is boarding - while his wife is at home cooking and doing the

holiday - she is

lovely, but at 74 she is frazzled - all of us know that he is just too old to

change after all

of these years (I adore him but sometimes his behavior with his wife, although

he seems

totally oblivious - is just not nice)

Many guys over the years have been attacted to me because of My " intensity " -

which they

claim to adore. Shortly - they hate the intensity. I used to always theorize

that sex

seemed to set something off in their NT psyches that caused them to want a

mother figure

and also to hate a mother figure.

My own husband and I dated, in our forties, for five years - me living in

Connecticut and

he in Quebec - for me - it worked - but he begged, pleaded for more professional

partnership - when I got here all of my freedom went downt he tubes . . I won't

go into it

but he forced me to take care of the medical business and his needs while he

went blithely

on. Yes, he is ill with Paranoid Schizophrenia - but in that illness his hatred

of women and

making me into his mother was bizzarre because I am not motherly!!!!!

In business - my colleagues would be attracted as friends to my mind - but as

you said

they would end up saying that I was too intense. for me - I want to talk about

new

methods in psychology - theatre, phiilosophy - I remember my one friend saying

to me -

Deb, you are just too intense . . you should be teaching all the time . . .

I want a buddy and I want to be a buddy. At my age I have just about given up

on it

though - I am not sure I will date after my divorse. My brother, at 52, whose

relationship

is troubled, is not sure that he will ever date again. We want interaction but

the whole

interaction thing and the constant twists and turns of intimate relationship -

at least with

NTs - is too difficult. I did date an Aspie for five years when I was in my

twenties and stil

know him - but he went on a path of drugs and alcohol - which I just couldn't

follow and

he stil does - but when we were together it was the easiest and nicest

relationship that I

had ever had - but I had also known him from the time I was fourteen, so when we

started

dating as adults there were no surprizes as to who he was and where he was going

other

than his decision to use drugs - I knew his parents and sisters and he knew mine

.. .

I know that this is not an easy question to discuss as we all have many personal

stories

Deborah

> >

> > " On the other hand most guys don't want a woman for who she really

> > is . . . they don't want a companion who takes responsiblity for

> > herself . . . "

> >

> >

> > This statement is true, and not true.

> >

> > It's NOT true because most guys DO want a companion who takes

> > responsiblity for herself.

> >

> > But that sort of woman is incompatible with the drop dead gorgeous

> > model who puts out on demand that most guys also want.

> >

> > So your statement is also true.

> >

> > Tom

> > Administrator

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Ah!

I feel vindicated.

The folks at AFF and Fractalus thinks FAM is such a terrible place,

but the fact that you can voice all these things and more shows that I

HAVE been right in fighting the big guys and letting my small little

forums stay open.

YOU yourself can serve as role model to other women be stating your

opinion and showing what can be accomplished with will and

determination.

Thanks for posting.

Tom

Administrator

" But look what is happening as the discussions on this board have

reflected - while there are role models for young girls to follow of

women who are both women and doing something - astronauts, soccer

players, doctors, scientists - as well as mothers and wives -

the " retro " programming that renders them useless - literally turns

them into Stepford Wives - is hitting at the young girls even

stronger than previous. Bras and Slut dancing poles for six year

olds??????!!!!!!! There are lines of purses and make up that they

market to small girls - between this and giving them dolls we are

warping their minds! "

[Guest guest]

Hello!

I am not quite sure what being a role model to young girls has to do with AFF

and the

other that you mentioned - Are they against personal responsibility?????

I do beleive that we have to be role models, to the best of our ability, by

taking

responsibility in our lives and doing the best we can with what we have. When I

grew up I

didn't know I had AS - but my grandparents always encouraged us to try, take

care of

others and do the best with the gifts that we have . . .

thanks,

Deborah

>

> " But look what is happening as the discussions on this board have

> reflected - while there are role models for young girls to follow of

> women who are both women and doing something - astronauts, soccer

> players, doctors, scientists - as well as mothers and wives -

> the " retro " programming that renders them useless - literally turns

> them into Stepford Wives - is hitting at the young girls even

> stronger than previous. Bras and Slut dancing poles for six year

> olds??????!!!!!!! There are lines of purses and make up that they

> market to small girls - between this and giving them dolls we are

> warping their minds! "

>

[Guest guest]

" I have found quite a few guys have been attracted to me they say

because I have my own mind, my own ideas - can think for myself, but

further into the relationship this becomes a problem. The thing they

say attracted them to me then becomes a stumbling block because I

don't always agree with them - the ability to think for oneself

becomes a double edged sword (so to speak). "

I think what guys want is a woman who can hold her own in a

relationship, but men have also been trained from boyhood that they

are the ones that are to " take charge " in a relationship.

So when the woman asserts herself, a guy then begins to question his

masculinity, and he also questions his own role in the relationship.

I do beleive then men and women are physically built to fulfill

certain functions. (A man cannot bear children, and a woman may not

have the physical strength to do certain kinds of heavy labor.) But

at the same time, I think it is weak for a man to question himself

if the woman asserts her (God given, according to the Bible) right

to have an equal say in the relationship.

The Bible says that a woman must subit to a man...but only in terms

of spiritual matters. In all others, a man must be subserviant to

his wife, and a wife must be subserviant to her huband, meaning that

they both treat one another equally and give each other equal

respect and accomodation.

Even if a person is not Christian, these are good rules to follow.

If we jettison the social stigma that comes with " The woman wearing

the pants around the house " and " stay at home dads " and just allow

two partners to develop a relationship that allows each person's

strengths to grow and manifest themselves, then we can more easily

avoid conflict, and love our partners without bad inner turmoil.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

AFF (Aspies For Freedom) thinks that, now that Aspies are coming

together, they need to advocate for themselves by marching in

portests and engaging in millitaristic tactics to get what they want.

I believe that Aspies can support themselves by developing

themselves from within and through group support. This means

building up self-esteem, embarking on and achieving personal goals,

and providing moral support and sympathy to those Aspies who need it.

AFF thinks my approach is too lovey-dovey. The fact that people get

fed up with AFF'S version of the autistic rights movement and come

here has caused them to try, in various ways, to slander this group

and get it shut down.

Bill Gates has been diagnosed with AS and serves as a role model for

Aspies, I think.

Their role model is Dawson, who seems to think that

bullying your way to the top in order to get what you want is the

way to go.

We have the same purpose: To make things better for Aspies, but we

also have two different approaches.

The difference is, I ignore them whereas they try to me down.

Tom

Administrator

Re: Abolishing Corporations take 2

Hello!

I am not quite sure what being a role model to young girls has to do

with AFF and the other that you mentioned - Are they against

personal responsibility?????

I do beleive that we have to be role models, to the best of our

ability, by taking rsponsibility in our lives and doing the best we

can with what we have. When I gew up I didn't know I had AS - but my

grandparents always encouraged us to try, take care of others and do

the best with the gifts that we have . . .

thanks,

Deborah

[Guest guest]

Thank you Tom,

Thank you for clarifying that. I sense that many people find their way to AFF

and then

don't know where else to go. I have been there and found that many of the newer

ones

were quite nice and probably not aware of any politics per se. I sense that the

people

behind the scene are more political than those coming for chat and trying to

find out

about themselves.

There are certaiin individuals there who are very negative - they seem negative

towards

any " American " as they identify it, idea of self determination and

responsiblity. I have

been several times upset that parents, coming on the chatline, with newly

diagnosed

chldren, and very nervous because they were not given any support re the

diagnoses have

been given, if certain people are online, very awful statistics saying that we

can't look

forward to having careers, etc.

This has been upsetting to me as I have seen my brother and myself, although we

have

struggled and I do believe that there are things that need addressed that can

aid children

- we have had good success in life.

the few times that I chatted with parents over there I tried to emphasize the

positive - not

hit them with all sorts of negative. I avoid certain people because I have been

slammed for

being positive . . . on the other hand there are a number of new people who just

have no

idea what is going on.

I agree with you re Bill Gates. My brother is one of the top sled dog U.S.

sprint racers and

he to me, is a very good model (although as you know he doesn't want to pursue

anything

re the AS and I agree with you that that is his choise; as I support my cousins

and friends;

it is just for me that I like to know more and know people like the ones here

who are

activiely exploring and thinking and sharing)

I personally feel that we do need rights and awareness - but that what we can do

needs to

be emphasized over the negative. I don't believe that negativity is going to

get us very far.

I know that there must be a number of successful adults in North America who can

be

positive role models. I am concerned that there seems to be a segment of the

therapy

community who is exploiting parents fears for gain . . . I am not sure if I am

seeing that

correctly or not.

Just so you know, when I was over there, I never heard anything re you - I would

have

come right over to explore if I had. I started searching for Aspies talking

more of what

you speak of here a few weeks ago and as I am a a member of a group for adults

with

abusive parents and Christian women going through a divorse, I did a search on

what

might be availible for Aspies and found these lists.

Thanks again.

Deborah

>

> Re: Abolishing Corporations take 2

>

> Hello!

>

> I am not quite sure what being a role model to young girls has to do

> with AFF and the other that you mentioned - Are they against

> personal responsibility?????

>

> I do beleive that we have to be role models, to the best of our

> ability, by taking rsponsibility in our lives and doing the best we

> can with what we have. When I gew up I didn't know I had AS - but my

> grandparents always encouraged us to try, take care of others and do

> the best with the gifts that we have . . .

>

> thanks,

>

> Deborah

>

[Guest guest]

It is usually considered that a woman is better at networking and

socializing than a man - but in my life I have found every single man

I have met is better at socializing and networking than I am :-( even

the ones that were considered anti-social by others; usually during

their time dating me became more outgoing.

This does annoy me to some extent, because throughout my life I have

been told that this is something I should be good at - women are

meant to be good at this and I am a woman, therefore I should be good

at it - I find such frustrating. Yet on the plus side I can

hyperfocus, something women aren't meant to be good at :-)

>

> " Many guys over the years have been attacted to me because of

> My " intensity " - which they claim to adore. Shortly - they hate the

> intensity. I used to always theorize that sex seemed to set

> something off in their NT psyches that caused them to want a mother

> figure

> and also to hate a mother figure. "

>

> Go back to your ellucidation on toys and you may see why this is.

>

> Boys are given toys that teach them to problem solve and take

> charge. They build things with blocks. They movie toy armies across

> toy battlefields. They shoot the bad guys with cap guns.

>

> Girls are given Barbie dolls and easy bake ovens, ergo they are

> supposed to grow up and be good wives and home-makers.

>

> That boyyhood training never leaves men.

>

> What entices men about a woman who is independent (at first) is

that

> here is an atypical woman who can do things that men do and still

be

> feminine. Thus he thinks he finds a mirror image of himself, and

> someone who can sympathize with the downside of being a man.

>

> What he forgets is that a woman is still a woman, which means that

> even if she does things that are thought to be a " manly " role, she

> will have developed a feminine way of dealing with things. Her

> feminine brain may have developed solutions to problems and issues

> that he has never thought of, and she may see his problems as

petty.

> Or hemay see himself as inferior.

>

> And so now you have the initial " perfect " pairing beginning to

> fracture.

>

> To mend this rift requires that both partners recognize that

> whatever they do with their lives, both are functioning within

> engineering tolerances with the bodies and minds they were given.

>

> My partner is a self-determined Aspie female who runs her own

> business. She has much more marketing and netowrking sense than I

> do, and I accept that. Further, rather than be jealous of her, I

> admire her skills and have tried to learn from them.

>

> Nowonce in a while she will have a bad day. In days past, when I

was

> still working in the office, if I had a bad day, I would just grit

> my teeth and take it, and maybe whine and complain a bit afterwards

> when I got home.

>

> When she has a bad day, she gets irritable and might cry.

>

> Here is another opportunity to facilitate the relationship. An

> insecure male would use her crying as an opportunity to pick on her

> while bragging about his own ability to weather such days. But I

try

> to listen and comfort her.

>

> Thus she can still be the better marketer an networker AND feel

self-

> actualized with her self-esteem intact.

>

> In return for this, she recognizes my strengths as well.

>

> It's a relationship that is built on positives instead of one that

> opportunistically preys on weaknesses. But for it to work at all

> requires getting out of that mindset instilled into us in childhood

> that says a man MUST do certain things and fulfill certain roles

and

> a woman MUST do certain other things and fulfill certain other

roles.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

I network well only because I can closely approximately NT

interactions during business networking situations provided these

situations to not go on for too long.

Raven

>

> It is usually considered that a woman is better at networking and

> socializing than a man - but in my life I have found every single

man

> I have met is better at socializing and networking than I am :-(

even

> the ones that were considered anti-social by others; usually

during

> their time dating me became more outgoing.

>

> This does annoy me to some extent, because throughout my life I

have

> been told that this is something I should be good at - women are

> meant to be good at this and I am a woman, therefore I should be

good

> at it - I find such frustrating. Yet on the plus side I can

> hyperfocus, something women aren't meant to be good at :-)

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't know if I were just too socially blind... but I honestly have no idea except as presented in movies and books as to what people are talking about. Probably just too blind. I don't remember having any girls not interested in me because I was too 'nice'. I'm pretty sure sometimes it was because of my social skills... you know if I can't figure out how to chit chat the entire time next thing you know they are being flirting at by bystanders...While I was courting my wife that wasn't a problem at all because we understood each others social ineptness. Instead of feeling really awkward because neither of us had anything to say it was more basking in the wonderfulness that neither of us would judge the other for the poor sociality we were displaying.I know sometimes my social skills problems drove gals away in high school... but never to flee into the arms of my worst enemy or some heavy muscle thug that made them feel happy to

be attached to such a bulky conglomeration of flesh.But then I was home schooled and so in the social environments I participated in I wasn't competing with say... the foot ball team. I went to a lot of youth dances and plenty of people tried to pay attention to me. My lack of social inhibitions actually made me comfortable dancing when everybody else was say slightly shuffling. Made me look cool. Girls would try to talk to me only to discover I was a crazy nerd or something. Never really felt I wasn't 'bad' enough for them. Just too weird.Crouchingowlzarinangel <healingintoauthenticity@...> wrote: Dear , when you wrote your post I had to think . . "did I write that?" I curently have an attack of Chronic Bronchitus, am feverish and did lots of posting last night so I was wondering what I had not remembered posting . . . I did not know how to answer Tom because I know that there are many men who do want a companion and he is one. In many ways, my AS brother is that way too - truly appreciating women and then he often gets stuck being manipulated by women who are used to "strong, Marboro type men that they have been trained since birth to manipulate" I was wondering if since I am 54 it is a generational thing. As a very strong Aspie, but "passing" by the "outward beauty" standards when I was younger - men thought I was some sort of wild, intelligent muse who could hike, camp,

move furniture, build things, discuss politics, religion, psychology and yet at 97 pounds and 5'1, blond, blue eyed I matched some sort of standard they were looking for . . . But with men my age and older they would suddenly want a psychological mother - not a buddy and work mate in the world. It was as if a button had been pressed. I do think that this is changing = and knowing my brother and other aspies who are younger - this is so. But I must say that my older Aspie friends and uncles expected a woman - my aunts and my friends, their wives - to create and keep a home, take care of the children while they lived in their own world and dropped in when they felt like it. My one friend, 72, has been around his wife since he was 1 and she was three - they have been married for more than fifty years - they have seven children, many grandchildren (some aspie) - but his idea of having the family over is for me and

him to sit in his warehouse - sometimes moving things with the back hoe or fork lift, - selling dirt, gravel and dog food - playing with the dogs that he is boarding - while his wife is at home cooking and doing the holiday - she is lovely, but at 74 she is frazzled - all of us know that he is just too old to change after all of these years (I adore him but sometimes his behavior with his wife, although he seems totally oblivious - is just not nice) Many guys over the years have been attacted to me because of My "intensity" - which they claim to adore. Shortly - they hate the intensity. I used to always theorize that sex seemed to set something off in their NT psyches that caused them to want a mother figure and also to hate a mother figure. My own husband and I dated, in our forties, for five years - me living in Connecticut and he in Quebec - for me - it worked - but he begged, pleaded for more

professional partnership - when I got here all of my freedom went downt he tubes . . I won't go into it but he forced me to take care of the medical business and his needs while he went blithely on. Yes, he is ill with Paranoid Schizophrenia - but in that illness his hatred of women and making me into his mother was bizzarre because I am not motherly!!!!! In business - my colleagues would be attracted as friends to my mind - but as you said they would end up saying that I was too intense. for me - I want to talk about new methods in psychology - theatre, phiilosophy - I remember my one friend saying to me - Deb, you are just too intense . . you should be teaching all the time . . . I want a buddy and I want to be a buddy. At my age I have just about given up on it though - I am not sure I will date after my divorse. My brother, at 52, whose relationship is troubled, is not sure that he will ever

date again. We want interaction but the whole interaction thing and the constant twists and turns of intimate relationship - at least with NTs - is too difficult. I did date an Aspie for five years when I was in my twenties and stil know him - but he went on a path of drugs and alcohol - which I just couldn't follow and he stil does - but when we were together it was the easiest and nicest relationship that I had ever had - but I had also known him from the time I was fourteen, so when we started dating as adults there were no surprizes as to who he was and where he was going other than his decision to use drugs - I knew his parents and sisters and he knew mine . . I know that this is not an easy question to discuss as we all have many personal stories Deborah > > > > "On the other hand most guys don't want a woman for who she really > > is . . . they don't want a companion who takes responsiblity for > > herself . . ." > > > > > > This statement is true, and not true. > > > > It's NOT true because most guys DO want a companion who takes > > responsiblity for herself. >

> > > But that sort of woman is incompatible with the drop dead gorgeous > > model who puts out on demand that most guys also want. > > > > So your statement is also true. > > > > Tom > > Administrator > > >

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[Guest guest]

" I don't remember having any girls not interested in me because I

was too 'nice'. I'm pretty sure sometimes it was because of my

social skills... you know if I can't figure out how to chit chat the

entire time next thing you know they are being flirting at by

bystanders... "

I was socially inept as well, which tended to put off women.

However, with the ones I managed to actually date, a new problem

arose: They could not keep an in-depth conversation going.

Not to be mean at all here, but I think I understand why it is non-

Aspies keep changing the subject all the time: It's so that they can

APPEAR to be knowledgable about things and thus attractive to

members of the opposite sex.

But in reality, their " warehouse " of facts and anecdotes from which

to draw on is almost empty, their ability to construct arguments is

poor, they have a limited vocabulary, and their attention span is

short.

Thus they hate it when you stick to facts, quote sources, create

logical arguments, use precise diction, and talk at length.

I did enjoy many aspects of the relationships I had with non-Aspie

women, but the one area that was lacking in these relationsips were

in depth conversations, which I really REALLY needed.

And for the record, my experience has been that when a non-Aspie

woman says she needs " deep " conversations, " deep " by her definition

means just below the water's surface, whereas to me in means the The

na Trench (the deepest point on the Earth's surface).

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

One thing might be to date women who are five years older. More

life experience, more things to talk about.

Maybe the metaphor of a sports broadcast for a baseball game, yeah,

you might have interesting, deep, significant stories, but as the

flow of the game is changed, a lot of these stories are just dropped

and on to the next topic. Yeah, I don't really understand it, I find

it frustrating, I feel like I'm not getting the attention I deserve

for my achievements. But the Zen of it all, I might not need to do

all this, I might get the attention and the appreciation just for

being me well, maybe

------

Another topic, in elementary school and junior high, I can remember

feeling incredible emphathy toward situations of social justice,

that other kids seemed to not get at all. There might be a

situation about poverty and exclusion and unfairness, and the other

kids didn't get it.

It's like I have two skills and I move across them and sometimes

miss the other. Whereas other people have one set of skills, which

they stay in and get good at, and are very predictable to others.

Most people seem to accept competition as a given, aspire to the

upper middle class, are interested in acquisition in vivid and

direct ways---but also have a very well-honed sense of what

constitutes cheating, and thus are concerned with ethics in their

own way. But they are not concerned with the larger issues of

building a better society (for example I ask why can't we have

enough good jobs for everyone, etc, etc)

-Doug

>

> " I don't remember having any girls not interested in me because I

> was too 'nice'. I'm pretty sure sometimes it was because of my

> social skills... you know if I can't figure out how to chit chat

the

> entire time next thing you know they are being flirting at by

> bystanders... "

>

> I was socially inept as well, which tended to put off women.

> However, with the ones I managed to actually date, a new problem

> arose: They could not keep an in-depth conversation going.

>

> Not to be mean at all here, but I think I understand why it is non-

> Aspies keep changing the subject all the time: It's so that they

can

> APPEAR to be knowledgable about things and thus attractive to

> members of the opposite sex.

>

> But in reality, their " warehouse " of facts and anecdotes from

which

> to draw on is almost empty, their ability to construct arguments

is

> poor, they have a limited vocabulary, and their attention span is

> short.

>

> Thus they hate it when you stick to facts, quote sources, create

> logical arguments, use precise diction, and talk at length.

>

> I did enjoy many aspects of the relationships I had with non-Aspie

> women, but the one area that was lacking in these relationsips

were

> in depth conversations, which I really REALLY needed.

>

> And for the record, my experience has been that when a non-Aspie

> woman says she needs " deep " conversations, " deep " by her

definition

> means just below the water's surface, whereas to me in means the

The

> na Trench (the deepest point on the Earth's surface).

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

" One thing might be to date women who are five years older. More

life experience, more things to talk about. "

I have nearly always dated older women, and it seems that older non-

Aspie women have trouble holding their own in deep conversations as

well as younger non-Aspie women. But I will say that older non-Aspie

women are better at holding their own than younger non Aspie women.

Incidentally, since I usually date smart women, I have been ale to

determine that intelligence is a factor in whether or not a non-

Aspie woman can hold a deep conversation. I think argumentation and

all the other things that go with conversing that I have listed out

in a prior post must be based in a separate portion of thebrain than

the one that controls intelligence, or else it is simply that

discussing things in depth is an undeveloped ability in most non-

Aspie women.

I am dating an older woman now who is an Aspie. She and I can go on

endlessly with one another, and sometimes she blows my mind out of

the water. maybe it is just that Aspies and aspies can connect

better because they have similar mindsets. I do not know.

" Another topic, in elementary school and junior high, I can remember

feeling incredible emphathy toward situations of social justice,

that other kids seemed to not get at all. "

I felt the same way about things. I used to be upset, for example,

about how all the Native Americans were moved west by the settlers,

but my fellow students seemed to believe that might makes right, and

that if the " Indians " had been the stronger -and thus deserving-

power, they would have driven out the rights and " deserved " to keep

their land.

I also hated how minorities and poor folks were picked on at my

school(s).

Tom

Administrator

There might be a

situation about poverty and exclusion and unfairness, and the other

kids didn't get it.

[Guest guest]

vermontredfox wrote: " One thing might be to date women who are five

years older. More life experience, more things to talk about. "

Tom wrote: " I am dating an older woman now who is an Aspie. She and I

can go on endlessly with one another, and sometimes she blows my mind

out of the water. maybe it is just that Aspies and aspies can connect

better because they have similar mindsets. I do not know. "

Do either of you men know just how terribly improbable it is for an

intelligent Aspie woman to find an intelligent man with whom she can

carry on an intelligant conversation? I will tell you, however, that

once she has met her match, it's a wondrous feeling to know that deep

conversation is reflected back to her. :-D

Raven