Re: Rise in new Teenage sport

[Guest guest]

" Adults have mistakenly and erroneously given children too much power

as well, . The Child Protective Services people and social

workers are constantly telling children that if things aren't going

the way they want them to go, they can phone up CPS or other

authority figures and make a claim of child abuse or child neglect

against the parent. "

I actually find this a bit funny - please let me explain. My son has

a social worker, I had to obtain such for him to access certain

services, which cannot be obtained without him having a social

worker. He has on occasion tried to use his social worker as a threat

(but never threatened to lie) he told his social worker that I

occasionally shout at him - and yes I do occasionally shout at him -

she found it rather ammusing. Btw, I am not prone to shout, but

occasinally do, or at least raise my voice, if it is the only way I

will be heard on occasions.

As for the 14 year old almost willingly putting herself into

care/foster home - wow. Don't children/young people realise how good

they got it?

" The fear that children can put into their parents thanks to such

people as social workers and CPS is unbelievable if the parents are

willing to fall for blackmail and extortion. "

My son sometimes tries emotional blackmail and threats on me - they

do not work and eventually I lose my paitence over such and generally

call his bluff, which generally nips it in the bud :-)

" As some of you know, swearing is a huge no-no around me. When Cub

has tried it, it results in a writing assignment and a physical

consequence (one paragraph for every explicative used with very clear

expectations concerning the content of the paragraph per word

followed by one floor cleaned on his hands and knees, with a bucket

of hot water and bleach and a rag). "

My son also understands swearing is a no no too - I have told him

that swearing makes him sound thick and stupid, that he cannot find

another suitable word.

I rarely swear myself, but have on occasion (embarassed smiley). I

just don't like the idea of swearing becoming a habit - I hear so

many people around using the F' word practically every other word -

why? Using it to that frequency only loses it's impact and makes me

think it a waste of energy, as they could say what they wanted a lot

quicker without the use of that word.

I also recently spoke online to a teenager who said he was having

problems swearing and I asked him why he/she did and he/she said

because they could - I just replied that such was pathetic (Mmmmmmmm

don't think my opinion went down well).

" Telling kids to behave can also be a real

headache.

> It isn't so bad where my mother teaches because it is a private

> school. Public schools though are said to have a major problem with

> discipline. One of the high schools around here is so bad that

they

> actually have police officers patrolling the halls. If that

doesn't

> just scream that something is seriously wrong I don't know what

will. "

>

> Adults have mistakenly and erroneously given children too much

power

> as well, . The Child Protective Services people and social

> workers are constantly telling children that if things aren't going

> the way they want them to go, they can phone up CPS or other

> authority figures and make a claim of child abuse or child neglect

> against the parent.

>

> I remember years ago when an acquaintance of mine was at odds with

> her 14-year-old daughter over everything including sneaking behind

> her back to 'see' a man who was in his early 20s. Her daughter,

upon

> hearing she was grounded yet again one afternoon, told her mother

> that CPS and social workers had talked to all the kids during

school

> assembly earlier in the year and that if she made a call to CPS,

they

> would remove her, place her in a foster home, and she could do what

> she wanted that way.

>

> My acquaintance suggested that she was bluffing so her daughter

> picked up the phone, set to dial CPS. My friend picked up a

writing

> pad and a pen and waited patiently for the number pad to be used.

> Her daughter looked at her oddly and finally asked her what in

> [insert massive profanities here] did she think she was doing. Her

> answer?

>

> " I'm taking notes. "

>

> Her daughter looked at her, half confused, half angered by her

> mother's words and demanded to know what she meant by " taking

notes. "

>

> " Well, " her mom said calmly, " I wouldn't want to make you out to be

a

> liar, honey, so whatever you tell CPS I've done to you I'm going to

> make happen so they believe EVERY SINGLE WORD YOU TELL THEM. " She

> paused slightly before continuing. " I figure it will take them at

> least an hour to get here after you call so if you're going to

claim

> a beating, that should be just enough time to do a great job. "

>

> Now, I know my acquaintance wasn't going to harm her child but her

> child, ready and willing to lie to CPS about what her mother was

> doing, had an epiphany. With nothing to lose, her mother might as

> well beat her if that was what she was going to claim because if

> you're going to do the time, you might as well do the crime.

>

> It was the last time her daughter ever pulled that stunt and from

> that moment onward, her daughter become more manageable and more

> easily reasoned with regarding any situation.

>

> The fear that children can put into their parents thanks to such

> people as social workers and CPS is unbelievable if the parents are

> willing to fall for blackmail and extortion. For those of us who

> have never been stupid enough to bend to blackmail and extortion,

it

> only means that we also have idiotic adults with whom to deal.

>

> As some of you know, swearing is a huge no-no around me. When Cub

> has tried it, it results in a writing assignment and a physical

> consequence (one paragraph for every explicative used with very

clear

> expectations concerning the content of the paragraph per word

> followed by one floor cleaned on his hands and knees, with a bucket

> of hot water and bleach and a rag). Other parents who know of this

> consequence are aghast ... not because it is such an awful

> consequence but because they are quite certain that CPS would look

> unfavourably upon the consequence, thereby putting myself at risk

> with CPS.

>

> I say my child is my child and it is my responsibility to ensure

that

> he understands and follows my rules, my ethics, my morality, et

al.

> And if they don't like that, they can take it up with me personally

> so I can educate them on what good parenting looks like.

>

> Raven

> Co-Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Mmmmmmmmm I didn't write the below that is in quotes. I was quoting

someone else.

> >

> > " Well, these parents have a reason to be concerned don't they?

Some

> > of their kids are beating people to death with golf clubs and

> > baseball bats, and , according to one of these kids, it feels like

> > playing a videogame. "

>

> ,

>

> I don't buy it, their cop-out story of a video game taught them how

to

> be cruel. They got a thrill from thinking about doing it absolutly

> knowing it was WRONG! Just as some underage drinkers get the

thrill of

> getting alcohol, it excites them even before they drink. I DO place

> blame on parents who find it a burden to be actively involved in

their

> children's lives. To intrude on what they feel is their personal

space

> will lead to a heated debate that they would rather not have. Sorry

> kid, this is my home and as long as you live here you are my

> responsiblity! Your actions reflect and effect ME! There is right

and

> there is wrong, if you are doing the latter you have nothing to

worry

> about.

>

> What does this say about our society. We are not responsible

enough to

> have a system in place to house the homeless who are willing to

except

> help. There is no money to be made so therefore it's a situation

our

> society ignores. We routinely turn away from crime, even when it

occurs

> in front of us. Don't become involved, let someone else take care

of

> it. Oh, there are exceptions to this but too few and far between.

>

> > I think what is really worrying me is that videogames are not

> > reality - so is this kid/young person basically saying what he did

> > didn't feel real?

>

>

> Baloney, they felt it and it was beyond real. They are trying to

place

> blame on anything or anybody but themselves.

>

>

> > How have people/young people/children got so removed from reality?

> > Have they really become so desensitized? Do they not realise the

> > consequences of their actions? Do they not realize the difference

> > between fact/real/reality and fiction?

>

>

> Again, they are not out of it and knew exactly what they were doing

just

> like Leopold and Loeb did when they committed murder. It was

calculated

> and cruel.

>

> Kim

>

[Guest guest]

" There are a number of decent black families that live here,

including one next door to me. "

My area is also mutli-racial, and we have never had any racial

tensions to speak of.

Any harrassment the minorities get comes from out of town. There is

a family of African Americans who moved in to a house near my old

high school. When they moved here from Chicagp, they left no

forwarding address sp their neighbors, who were drug runners and

gang members. couldn't follow them. Eventually, they managed to

figure out from the postman where the family moved to and then began

harrassing them in my town.

Apparently what their former neighbors were angry about was that

1) The family was " holding out on them " by not lending money to the

neighbors to buy drugs with for their operation, and

2) Betraying the brothers by moving in with the high and mighty

whities.

They were caught and ultimately jailed. The family, who are good

upstanding citizens, remain here, but for how long?

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" There are a number of decent black families that live here,

including one next door to me. "

My area is also mutli-racial, and we have never had any racial

tensions to speak of.

Any harrassment the minorities get comes from out of town. There is

a family of African Americans who moved in to a house near my old

high school. When they moved here from Chicagp, they left no

forwarding address sp their neighbors, who were drug runners and

gang members. couldn't follow them. Eventually, they managed to

figure out from the postman where the family moved to and then began

harrassing them in my town.

Apparently what their former neighbors were angry about was that

1) The family was " holding out on them " by not lending money to the

neighbors to buy drugs with for their operation, and

2) Betraying the brothers by moving in with the high and mighty

whities.

They were caught and ultimately jailed. The family, who are good

upstanding citizens, remain here, but for how long?

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Raven wrote: " Ah, but that is an assumption on your part that these

kids *KNOW*

what they are doing is wrong. If violence on television, in music,

in video games, et al teaches them that some people are lesser beings

and are " there " for their pleasure, they will be desensitized to the

fact that they are dealing with a fellow human being. "

They know that they can't leave the home undressed but don't know murder

is illegal? Come on, I don't care how many games, videos, movies, and

bad influences they've been exposed to, they knew it was wrong. They

never seen people being arrested with all the Law and Order shows etc

out there? I still don't buy it.

Raven wrote: " This is how Nazi Germany thrived when they brainwashed the

populus

into believing that Jews and Homosexuals and Disabled persons were

lesser beings and worthy of being killed off because they

weren't 'really people.' Those who were exposed to this way of

thinking from an early age, easily and quickly believed this to be so

and had no problems whatsoever endangering those people's lives. "

Not the entire population agreed with Hitler. It's true brainwashing

occurs but many did hideous crimes knowing full well it was wrong. They

took the opportunity to fufill their psychopathic / some other

disorder's fantasy knowing full well that they wouldn't be punished

because of the regieme's stance and approval.

Raven wrote: " Desensitization dehumanizes and as such, there are those

who *DO NOT

KNOW* that killing the homeless is *WRONG* because those people

aren't really people anyway. "

Not unless they are insane!

Raven wrote: " 1) gangsta rappers are put on a pedestal for glorifying

the 'virtues'

(using that word exceptionally loosely here) of getting rid of lesser

beings; "

Yes they do and go to jail when caught committing a crime.

Raven wrote: " 2) movies show no consequences for senseless killings or

for

unwarranted attacks; "

Which is in the realm of fantasy and those who cannot understand the

difference are insane. With the exception of very young children but

these children have other experiences that can guide them too.

Raven wrote: " 3) video games reward players with points for killing of

certain

sorts of characters in the game, and in order to become the great

gaming god, the more the player kills in the shortest amount of time

is the winner. Remember, accuracy counts! (gag) "

Not all gamers become killers.

Raven wrote: " This is why parental involvement is crucial and critical

to the

formation of morals and ethics in their children. To abdicate this

responsibility is unconscionable and criminal.

Exactly but our law only deals with the problem after the fact. There

is only so much government oversight people will allow to have control

over.

Raven wrote: " Kim you are failing to take into account that a great

number of

parents of teenagers grew up on violent games and movies and music.

Gangsta Rap has been a mainstay for over two decades now. Ice-T the

actor on Law & Order is the same Ice-T the gangsta rapper who

actively encouraged his 'homies in the hood' to take out authority

with guns and such. Those are some of the people out there raising

violent children. Do you really think that they take the time to

know right from wrong themselves, much less teach their children

right from wrong? No way. The world OWES THEM and so they teach

their children that the world OWES THEM and they teach their children

that some people have no value so it is no great loss when they are

killed or otherwise die.

Ok, instead of right from wrong, let's say legal from illegal or free to

incarerated. Kids who grow up in bad situations have seen someone or

know someone who's gone to jail. In my opinion, it boils down to

whether or not those who commit violent acts FEEL remorse or guilt.

Raven wrote: " And here are some of the reasons why people do not get

involved:

1) Unless it's a severe enough crime, the police won't investigate;

Not true, I've personally had a patrol car at my home and on my block

for minor things such as when I called about a neighbors basement window

being broken and teenagers running around causing trouble. This may be

an exception to the rule but not in my neighborhood where we (the

neighbors) are aware of how crime creeps in if it's not addressed.

Raven wrote: " 2) If the police investigate and you are a lower income

person, the

stereotype is that:

a) " those types of people " are always making trouble;

lack of income equals lack of intellect;

c) the parties involved must all be criminals on some level anyway.

I believe you are sterotyping police. There is a suburb south of where

I live that suffers in many ways, murders go unsolved not because of any

of the reasons you list above but because the people are being raped by

the mayor and his coherts. They all came from the same background!

Greed is the reason the people of the community suffer.

Raven wrote: " 3) If someone is arrested and they make bail, they will

come back

and retaliate against the person who provided the police with the

information that led to the arrest in the first place;

This is true and many just do not want to see their friends or relatives

go to jail given the mindset it's us against them.

Raven wrote: " 4) If someone is arrested and they do NOT make bail,

their friends

will come over and retaliate against the person who provided the

police with the information that led to the arrest in the first place.

I'm glad the USA gave us the right to bear arms and the right to defend

ourselves seeing as the police can not be everwhere all the time. I see

your point and yes it happens. I live in Chicago where this happens all

the time. People must take a stand and fight for whats right or suffer

as a community and I see this happening too, with sucess!

Raven wrote: " Don't tell me that this doesn't happen because it does

and it happens

even in nice little countries like Canada and in nice little town

like borough. You were not posting here a couple years ago -- I

do not think so anyway -- when I was having horrendous problems with

the neighbours in this townhouse complex.

My next door neighbour had mounted a campaign against me because he

was convinced that because I did not do drugs, because I did not get

drunk every weekend, because I did not hang out and do nothing with

the neighbours all day, and because I invested all my time in my

child, that it was obvious that I was a NARC working for the police.

He backed up his assertion with the proof that the Narcotics Task

Force raided the complex regularly and carted many of them away to

jail every time, only to have them return to the complex once bail

was posted. What he failed to take into account was that BEFORE I

moved into the housing complex, the Narcotics Task Force had

oftentimes raided the complex and carted many of them away to jail on

various serious charges.

My child and I were terrorized. Our big plate glass window in the

front room was broken no fewer than four times, tenants would swarm

my townhouse if they knew that Cub was home from school and

was 'looking fragile' and they would never miss a chance to scream

obscenities and profanities and disgusting comments at us whenever we

left the relative safety of our home.

The adults (rolls eyes) routinely encouraged their minor children to

terrorize us because they knew that the police would not charge their

minor children and the adults would be able to continue their reign

of terror against us. And the police could do nothing because,

unless I could identify without a doubt and provide proof that would

stand up in court without blinking, there was nothing they would do

to help us.

Now tell me, Kim ... all these children have gaming systems and all

of them play violent video games (yes, you can always hear them

discussing the latest 'extremely violent' video game so you know they

not only have access to them but they are playing them as well). Not

one of them seems to have a conscience and all of them have the

attitude that children like Cub are there for their amusement because

he isn't 'normal' so it's ok to make his life impossible. It's ok

because if he was 'normal' he wouldn't be 'weird' and he wouldn't

be 'all f***ed up " [their terminology] and worse. But by virtue of

Cub not being what they consider to be 'normal' this makes him a

lesser being.

Since their parents encouraged them in the past to attack my child

verbally and physically, these kids have all the reason they need to

believe that what they think is not only correct, but their right to

carry out. And their parents feel the same way.

Get rid of the cripples. Get rid of the retards. Get rid of the

homeless. They're not real people anyway.

That's how they think. Tell me, Kim ... do you really believe these

children raised by violent, unethical, amoral parents actually *KNOW*

that what they are doing is wrong? No. They have every reason --

because of absent parenting, violent movies, violent music, violent

video games -- to believe that it's ok to kill " some " people.

I'm not sure if I'll respond to this well enough but I'll try. It must

have been horrible and I'm sorry you and Cub had to endure the drug

peddling & users violence. I understand how you've come to your

conclusion about why children grow up without having a reasonable sense

of right and wrong. Going back to the article though, the boys grew up

in so called good homes and when I read the article my opinion was that

these boys knew right from wrong and the playing of a video game didn't

warp their reality.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Sorry about that . The second half of the message- the part I

deleted was from you.

Kim

>

> Mmmmmmmmm I didn't write the below that is in quotes. I was quoting

> someone else.

[Guest guest]

On 22 Feb 2007 ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> Ah, but that is an assumption on your part that these kids *KNOW*

> what they are doing is wrong. ...

> This is how Nazi Germany thrived when they brainwashed the populus

This seems to be closer to the issue, at least to the extent

that these kids decided it's okay to kill homeless people.

That's why I think video games are the TSA Ziplock Bag of

violence (meaning a pseudo-response).

This is the result of dehuminizing a class of people as you

describe. This has to do with how people are regarded. The use

of violence follows that and does not cause it.

The actual dynamics can be anything from just a desire to

victimize people to a dispute in which the kid decides it's okay

to take the response that far.

- s

[Guest guest]

On 22 Feb 2007 environmental1st2003 wrote:

> However, many video games ARE about killing people in new and

> gruesome ways, and with the development of newer and more realistic

> types of 3d software, the lines between what is real and what isn't

> are being blurred.

Ultimately, the violence will be as realistic as in the movies.

That still doesn't blur fiction or action fiction with reality.

> Remember, children believe in ghosts, they beleive in monsters under

> the bed, the boogie man in the closet, and the tooth fairy and Santa

> Claus.

Children also watch cartoon characters run over by road paving

equipment, etc. Just because they believe in Santa Claus

doesn't mean they will transfer violence from a game to people.

The statement was that the act was no different from a video

game. That still isn't the same as, " I couldn't distinguish

between a homeless person and a video game enemy. " They were

just saying it was easy to commit the violence and they didn't

care, just like they didn't care what they killed on a video

game.

> Interestingly, while a child may cry sometimes when they discover

> this is no Santa Claus they go on believing in the supernatural and

> superstitious for a long time.

The child was originally told that Santa Clause was real.

That's not the same as " realistic " . Even a dog figures out that

the image in a mirror is not a real dog.

- s

[Guest guest]

On 22 Feb 2007 environmental1st2003 wrote:

> Ammunition comes in the form of morals, values, ethics, and self-

> assurance through positive mentorship. This is seldom given to a

> child in a violent video game. In fact, I rather doubt these

> important things can be found in a video game at all.

I believe that the values a parent communicates to the kid will

be treated as valid in its own right. Similarly, if the parents

show that violence has a value then that is liable to be

accepted by the child.

On the other hand, if the kid participates in an activity which

has no relationship to these values, such as riding a bike, that

won't change the values. It doesn't mean that the kid is not

finding values in the kid's environment.

In the case of entertainment, there are forms of entertainment

that don't have an educational or moral value. That doesn't

make them immoral; just amoral. In the case of video games,

they may not have moral values, although sometimes moral

imperative is used as part of a " good vs. evil " aspect of the

game. Similarly, some of these games are useful in training for

coordination and parallel mental skills.

But the issues are:

1. Does a violent game encourage violence IRL?

2. If a violent game can encourage someone inclined to be

violent IRL, does this follow for someone who has been brought

up in a healthy environment? If it does not, why shouldn't that

kid brought up in a healthy environment be able to zap video

enemies to his/her heart's content?

> The child in question didn't say " It was like something I saw on

> TV. " In this case, the reference was specific.

Sure. There is interaction in a video game, so a video game is

a better analogy.

- s

[Guest guest]

On 22 Feb 2007 ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> Stan responded: " This presumes that " It was like a video game " is

> the same as " The video game made me do it. "

>

> No, Stan, it presumes that desensitization towards violent acts as

> does happen with the relentless onslaught of violent acts witnessed

> by children will have a negative effect on growing minds.

This still presupposes that violent games cause violent kids.

If that were the case, kids where I used to live in the

Philadelphia suburbs (Narberth), who probably had far more

access to violent video games than their peers across City Line

Ave. in Philadelphia proper would have been more violent. The

opposite was true. If I ran across 10, 50 (or rarely, more)

teenagers at the station heading for the city, I felt perfectly

safe. I ran into the same thing years ago in North Jersey and

to a lesser extent in Idaho.

(Where I live now, there aren't many youth. My neighbourhood is

mostly 2 bedroom houses.)

It's easy to say that video games are violent, and therefore

violence among teens is caused by video games. I don't buy it.

I see this as the Ziplock Bag of the problem of violent youth

(referring to the US TSA's use of Ziplock Bags in security

theatre).

> Stan responded: " Why does a kid need ID to purchase a video game? "

>

> So he or she does not purchase age inappropriate content video

> games. ...

> It would be no different than having an ID in order to purchase

> alcohol.

Alcohol is defined as a beverage over a certain percent alcohol,

I think something like 1%. How do you do that with a video

game?

> Stan responded: " Everyone, if you have a kid who beats people to

> death with golf clubs and baseball bats, don't let him play video

> games. But that does not mean that a kid playing a video game is

> going to get bored and start killing real people. "

>

> No it does not mean that. You are correct, Stan. However, a child

> who has been desensitized to violence will be less averse to

> dismissing violence in his life and more accepting of violent

> behaviour by others as well as at his own hand.

That's the " no exposure to any violence " philosophy. That would

include tee vee, movies, and for that matter history books.

That may or may not reduce violence, but I'd look to other

reasons for kids being violent. Violence in the family would be

a good place to start looking.

> Tom wrote: " How would you like to find yourself getting beaten up by

> kids who think they are just playing some extrapolated version of the

> video games you like to play? "

>

> Stan responded: " Sociopaths, not gamers. If they think they're

> playing some extrapolated version of a video game, they're beyond

> BPD. "

>

> Whenever a group of people are presented to the impressionable mind

> as being lesser people, it is easy for that impressionable mind to

> dehumanize the entire group of people.

Again, I don't see video games as desensitizing people to

violence against vulnerable members of society.

- s

[Guest guest]

Raven wrote: " Ah, but that is an assumption on your part that these

kids *KNOW* what they are doing is wrong. If violence on television,

in music, in video games, et al teaches them that some people are

lesser beings and are " there " for their pleasure, they will be

desensitized to the fact that they are dealing with a fellow human

being. "

Kim responded: " They know that they can't leave the home undressed

but don't know murder is illegal? Come on, I don't care how many

games, videos, movies, and bad influences they've been exposed to,

they knew it was wrong. They never seen people being arrested with

all the Law and Order shows etc out there? I still don't buy it. "

Of course you don't buy it, Kim. You are attempting to compare

oranges to apples. If you want a comparison ask yourself how many of

them have no problem torturing animals without giving a thought as to

how wrong that is. Then take a look at those same people and you

will see that because they see the homeless (or others whom they deem

to be lesser beings) as nothing better than the 'soulless' animals

they torture for pleasure.

Raven wrote: " This is how Nazi Germany thrived when they brainwashed

the populus into believing that Jews and Homosexuals and Disabled

persons were lesser beings and worthy of being killed off because

they weren't 'really people.' Those who were exposed to this way of

thinking from an early age, easily and quickly believed this to be so

and had no problems whatsoever endangering those people's lives. "

Kim responded: " Not the entire population agreed with Hitler. It's

true brainwashing occurs but many did hideous crimes knowing full

well it was wrong. They took the opportunity to fufill their

psychopathic / some other disorder's fantasy knowing full well that

they wouldn't be punished because of the regieme's stance and

approval. "

And not every kid plays video games and not every kid who plays video

games is violent. But there is no denying -- since there are a

number of studies to support this -- that desensitization lowers a

person's ability to be horrified by unconscionable acts.

There is also no denying that a child will most often -- unless by

some saving grace or some horrible downfall -- embraces its parents

morals and ethics. When the parents have no problem with harming

others, and when parents encourage their children to harm others, the

children do not see what is *WRONG* with harming people that are

targeted as allegedly being lesser beings.

Raven wrote: " Desensitization dehumanizes and as such, there are those

who *DO NOT KNOW* that killing the homeless is *WRONG* because those

people aren't really people anyway. "

Kim wrote: " Not unless they are insane! "

That is an emotional knee-jerk response without merit or proof.

Raven wrote: " 1) gangsta rappers are put on a pedestal for glorifying

the 'virtues' (using that word exceptionally loosely here) of getting

rid of lesser beings; "

Kim responded: " Yes they do and go to jail when caught committing a

crime. "

That is a truly naive albeit nice belief to hold. The fact is,

however, that a number of criminals who are arrested and charged with

felony offences have access to nifty lawyers who are successful at

getting their clients off the hook.

Drop into your local police station and talk to the officers on

duty. Ask them how 'satisfying' it is for them to arrest a punk only

to see that punk out on bail and then later on, watch a lawyer

successfully get their client off the hook completely. It happens a

lot.

Raven wrote: " 2) movies show no consequences for senseless killings

or for unwarranted attacks; "

Kin responded: " Which is in the realm of fantasy and those who

cannot understand the difference are insane. With the exception of

very young children but these children have other experiences that

can guide them too. "

I cannot believe that you have never listened to what criminals who

are tazered or shot say when it happens to them! Almost every one of

them screams like a banshee, screaming, " It hurts! It hurts! OMG! I

really hurts. "

Of course, it hurts. You would think they would know that since

hurting other people is part of their M.O. usually. But they are so

surprised to find out that being tazered hurts and getting shot

hurts.

And you really need to stop claiming that people who are this way are

insane. Post proof that supports this continuous insanity claim you

make.

Raven wrote: " 3) video games reward players with points for killing of

certain sorts of characters in the game, and in order to become the

great gaming god, the more the player kills in the shortest amount of

time is the winner. Remember, accuracy counts! (gag) "

Kim responded: " Not all gamers become killers. "

I never said they did. But you claim that ALL people who fall into

what you refer to as the " insane " category *KNOW* what they are doing.

Raven wrote: " This is why parental involvement is crucial and critical

to the formation of morals and ethics in their children. To abdicate

this responsibility is unconscionable and criminal.

Kim responded: " Exactly but our law only deals with the problem

after the fact. There is only so much government oversight people

will allow to have control over. "

Then parents had better start PARENTING and the government and CPS

and social workers and bleeding hearts that coddle children who are

going the down the wrong path had better start supporting this

PARENTING.

The fact remains that parents have to start monitoring what their

children do from the beginning of a child's life until that child is

no longer a minor child and is out on his or her own, earning his or

her way as a contributing member of society.

Raven wrote: " Kim you are failing to take into account that a great

number of parents of teenagers grew up on violent games and movies

and music. Gangsta Rap has been a mainstay for over two decades now.

Ice-T the actor on Law & Order is the same Ice-T the gangsta rapper

who actively encouraged his 'homies in the hood' to take out

authority with guns and such. Those are some of the people out there

raising violent children. Do you really think that they take the time

to know right from wrong themselves, much less teach their children

right from wrong? No way. The world OWES THEM and so they teach their

children that the world OWES THEM and they teach their children that

some people have no value so it is no great loss when they are killed

or otherwise die. "

Kim wrote: " Ok, instead of right from wrong, let's say legal from

illegal or free to incarerated. Kids who grow up in bad situations

have seen someone or know someone who's gone to jail. In my opinion,

it boils down to whether or not those who commit violent acts FEEL

remorse or guilt. "

You are assuming again, Kim. Regular people with some modicum of

education oftentimes have difficulty understanding the difference

between 'legalizing' and 'decriminalizing.' If those people can't

figure out the difference between those two words, why do you expect

kids who are from multi-generational criminal backgrounds to know

what's really legal and what's really illegal.

When they hear that certain drugs have been 'decriminalized' and then

they are apprehended and charged with possession with intent to

traffic, these kids are convinced that 'the man' has it in for [name

their particular situation from ethnicity to family income.]

Add to that the sense of entitlement that so many kids have these

days, especially in families where the parents or adult role models

in their immediate environment walk around with that same sense of

entitlement.

Raven wrote: " And here are some of the reasons why people do not get

involved:

1) Unless it's a severe enough crime, the police won't investigate; "

Kim responded: " Not true, I've personally had a patrol car at my

home and on my block for minor things such as when I called about a

neighbors basement window being broken and teenagers running around

causing trouble. This may be an exception to the rule but not in my

neighborhood where we (the neighbors) are aware of how crime creeps

in if it's not addressed. "

Come live in my townhouse complex for a couple months, Kim, and let's

see if you still believe that you are the 'norm' or if you are

the 'exception.'

When drug dealers and gun runners are living right next door to you

and they have no trouble whatsoever threatening you and the landlord

has no problem looking the other way, then tell me that EVERY person

who is threatened in this way is going to call the police to

investigate. Tell me that those who witness this sort of

intimidation are going to call the police. And tell me that people

aren't easily cowed into thinking THEY could be next on the HIT list.

Raven wrote: " 2) If the police investigate and you are a lower income

person, the stereotype is that:

a) " those types of people " are always making trouble;

lack of income equals lack of intellect;

c) the parties involved must all be criminals on some level anyway.

Kim wrote: " I believe you are sterotyping police. There is a suburb

south of where I live that suffers in many ways, murders go unsolved

not because of any of the reasons you list above but because the

people are being raped by the mayor and his coherts. They all came

from the same background! Greed is the reason the people of the

community suffer. "

I can say it and it is NOT stereotyping of police because I have

personally lived it, Kim. You are talking anecdotal evidence while I

am providing real life experiences.

And don't think that this is the first time I've experienced this

sort of behaviour from police officers. In Canada, Aboriginals and

Metis are not well treated by many who are not Aboriginal or Metis.

In fact, studies have been done regarding Aboriginal crime v

Caucasian crime ... response rates by police, charges laid, jail time

(if any), etc.

Those who are Aboriginal are much more likely to be charged with a

crime than a Caucasian guilty of the same act. Aboriginals are much

more likely to draw the maximum sentence whereas Caucasians guilty of

the same act are more likely to draw the minimum sentence with time

off for time already spent incarcerated and the opportunity to make

application to be released after they have served 1/3rd of the total

sentence. There's more.

Here's a great example of 'justice.' There is a big stand-off going

on in Caledonia, ON that involves Aboriginal land that was stolen

from them to be given to a developer for condos. There has been a

lot of trouble over this for over a year now.

White men -- not trying to insult any posters here but this is how

polarized things are in this situation -- can come on to the land and

abuse the Aboriginals there, call their children awful names, push

the Aboriginals around, cause as much trouble as possible and the

police do not charge these troublemakers.

But there is a case of one Aboriginal who did not take kindly to

being pushed and he pushed back. *HE* was arrested and thrown in

jail without a bail hearing for months now. His wife and six

children are destitute, relying on hand outs from relatives and

neighbours but nothing from the white man. SHe cannot even apply for

welfare benefits because until her husband gets that bail hearing,

the government says that he is *ABLE* to work and *ABLE* to support

his family.

How is he supposed to support his family when he can't even get a

bail hearing? If he was a white man, he would have been arraigned

the next morning, bail would have been set and he would have been out

of jail that same day. Not so with this Aboriginal man. He

languishes in jail while his family suffers.

And the police? Well, Aboriginals are easy targets. They're lazy

and troublemakers and stupid (that's the stereotype) and we're

ridiculously stubborn about not having any more of our land stolen

from us for the sake of white man's profits.

This is how they are as well with the poor or those who survive on

lower incomes.

You wouldn't know that though, Kim, because you have not lived this

life.

Raven wrote: " 3) If someone is arrested and they make bail, they will

come back and retaliate against the person who provided the police

with the information that led to the arrest in the first place;

Kim responded: " This is true and many just do not want to see their

friends or relatives go to jail given the mindset it's us against

them. "

I don't understand what you mean exactly by your statement. Please

clarify.

Raven wrote: " Don't tell me that this doesn't happen because it does

and it happens even in nice little countries like Canada and in nice

little town like borough ... <snip> ... Tell me, Kim ... do you

really believe these children raised by violent, unethical, amoral

parents actually *KNOW* that what they are doing is wrong? No. They

have every reason -- because of absent parenting, violent movies,

violent music, violent video games -- to believe that it's ok to

kill " some " people. "

Kim wrote: " I'm not sure if I'll respond to this well enough but

I'll try. It must have been horrible and I'm sorry you and Cub had to

endure the drug peddling & users violence. I understand how you've

come to your conclusion about why children grow up without having a

reasonable sense of right and wrong. Going back to the article

though, the boys grew up in so called good homes and when I read the

article my opinion was that these boys knew right from wrong and the

playing of a video game didn't warp their reality. "

No but playing violent video games et al certainly desensitized them

to the inhumanity of their actions.

Amoral, unethical people who promote violence, drug dealing, gun

running and more also live and thrive in high income families. Al

Capone wasn't exactly poor and neither were the Bronfmans.

One cannot stereotype and say that children who come from families

with a reasonable income are immediately above reactions that drive

amoral, unethical children from some low income families.

Unless a child is taught right from wrong, the child grows up with

the only instinct that is inborn ... survival.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

Stan wrote: " This still presupposes that violent games cause violent

kids. If that were the case, kids where I used to live in the

Philadelphia suburbs (Narberth), who probably had far more access to

violent video games than their peers across City Line Ave. in

Philadelphia proper would have been more violent ... <snip> ... "

You have assumed that lack of income means lack of access to video

games. You are terribly naive in that thought.

You may want to read some of the following studies that draw strong

correlations between violence in video games and increased aggression

in those playing these video games. I know it will take you some

time to read everything, but I can be very patient.

Raven

Co-Administrator

Suggested Papers to Read:

, C.A. (2004). An update on the effects of violent video

games. Journal of Adolescence, 27, 133-122.

, C.A., Berkowitz, L., Donnerstein, E., Huesmann, R.L.,

, J., Linz, D., Malamuth, N., & Wartella, E. (2003). The

influence of media violence on youth . Psychological Science in the

Public Interest, 4, 81-110

, C.A., & Bushman, B.J. (2001). Effects of violent video

games on aggressive behavior, aggressive cognition, aggressive

affect, physiological arousal, and prosocial behavior: A meta-

analytic review of the scientific literature. Psychological Science,

12, 353-359.

, C. A., & Dill, K. E. (2000). Video games and aggressive

thoughts, feelings, and behavior in the laboratory and in life.

Journal of Personality & Social Psychology, 78, 772-791.

, C. A., Gentile, D. A., & Buckley, K. E. (under review).

Violent video game effects on children and adolescents: Further

developments and tests of the general aggression model .

Brasington, R. (1990). Nintendinitis. New England Journal of

Medicine, 322, 1473-1474.

Buchman, D. D., & Funk, J. B. (1996). Video and computer games in

the '90s: Children's time commitment and game preference. Children

Today, 24, 12-16.

Children Now. (2001). Fair play? Violence, gender and race in video

games. Los Angeles, CA: Children Now.

Dietz, T. L. (1998). An examination of violence and gender role

portrayals in video games: Implications for gender socialization and

aggressive behavior. Sex Roles, 38, 425-442.

Dill, K. E., Gentile, D. A., Richter, W. A., & Dill, J. C. (in

press). Violence, sex, race, and age in popular video games: A

content analysis. In (E. Cole & D.J. , Eds.) Featuring

females: Feminist analyses of the media. Washington, DC: American

Psychological Association.

Dorval, M. & Pepin, M. (1986). Effect of playing a video game on a

measure of spatial visualization. Perception and Motor Skills, 62,

159-162.

Funk, J. B. (1993). Reevaluating the impact of video games. Clinical

Pediatrics, 32,86-90.

Gentile, D.A., Lynch, P.L., Linder, J.R., & Walsh, D.A. (2004). The

effects of violent video game habits on adolescent hostility,

aggressive behaviors, and school performance. Journal of Adolescence,

27, 5-22.

Green, C. S. & Bavelier, D. (2003, May 29). Action video game

modifies visual selective attention. Nature, 423, 534-537.

, M. B., & , R. (1985). Video games and school

performance. Education,105(3), 306-309.

Yuji, H. (1996). Computer games and information-processing skills.

Perception and Motor Skills, 83, 643-647

[Guest guest]

Stan wrote: " Why does a kid need ID to purchase a video game? "

Raven responded: " So he or she does not purchase age inappropriate

content video games ... <snip> ... It would be no different than

having an ID in order to purchase alcohol. "

Stan then asked: " Alcohol is defined as a beverage over a certain

percent alcohol, I think something like 1%. How do you do that with

a video game? "

The same way you do it with movies ... rating the game appropriately

based on certain markers.

For the gaming industry, that definitions used can be found at

http://www.esrb.org/index-js.jsp.

From the site: "

The Entertainment Software Rating Board

(ESRB) ratings are designed to provide accurate and objective

information about the content in computer and video games so you can

make an informed purchase decision. ESRB ratings have two equal

parts: rating symbols suggest age appropriateness for the game and

content descriptors indicate elements in a game that may have

triggered a particular rating and/or may be of interest or concern.

To take full advantage of the ESRB rating system, it's important to

check both the rating symbol (on the front of the box) and the

content descriptors (on the back) [end quote]. "

Now how about those ratings. What are they exactly? For your

edification and to spare you a trip to the ESRB website, they are:

EARLY CHILDHOOD

Titles rated EC (Early Childhood) have content that may be suitable

for ages 3 and older. Contains no material that parents would find

inappropriate.

EVERYONE

Titles rated E (Everyone) have content that may be suitable for ages

6 and older. Titles in this category may contain minimal cartoon,

fantasy or mild violence and/or infrequent use of mild language.

EVERYONE 10+

Titles rated E10+ (Everyone 10 and older) have content that may be

suitable for ages 10 and older. Titles in this category may contain

more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal

suggestive themes.

TEEN

Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13

and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive

themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or

infrequent use of strong language.

MATURE

Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons

ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense

violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

ADULTS ONLY

Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played

by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include

prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content

and nudity.

RATING PENDING

Titles listed as RP (Rating Pending) have been submitted to the ESRB

and are awaiting final rating. (This symbol appears only in

advertising prior to a game's release.)

Add to those ratings, the ESRB Content Descriptors which are as

follows:

1. Alcohol Reference - Reference to and/or images of alcoholic

beverages

2. Animated Blood - Discolored and/or unrealistic depictions of blood

3. Blood - Depictions of blood

4. Blood and Gore - Depictions of blood or the mutilation of body

parts

5. Cartoon Violence - Violent actions involving cartoon-like

situations and characters. May include violence where a character is

unharmed after the action has been inflicted

6. Comic Mischief - Depictions or dialogue involving slapstick or

suggestive humor

7. Crude Humor - Depictions or dialogue involving vulgar antics,

including " bathroom " humor

8. Drug Reference - Reference to and/or images of illegal drugs

9. Edutainment - Content of product provides user with specific

skills development or reinforcement learning within an entertainment

setting. Skill development is an integral part of product

10. Fantasy Violence - Violent actions of a fantasy nature, involving

human or non-human characters in situations easily distinguishable

from real life

11. Informational - Overall content of product contains data, facts,

resource information, reference materials or instructional text

12. Intense Violence - Graphic and realistic-looking depictions of

physical conflict. May involve extreme and/or realistic blood, gore,

weapons and depictions of human injury and death

13. Language - Mild to moderate use of profanity

14. Lyrics - Mild references to profanity, sexuality, violence,

alcohol or drug use in music

15. Mature Humor - Depictions or dialogue involving " adult " humor,

including sexual references

16. Mild Violence - Mild scenes depicting characters in unsafe and/or

violent situations

17. Nudity - Graphic or prolonged depictions of nudity

18. Partial Nudity - Brief and/or mild depictions of nudity

19. Real Gambling - Player can gamble, including betting or wagering

real cash or currency

20. Sexual Themes - Mild to moderate sexual references and/or

depictions. May include partial nudity

21. Sexual Violence - Depictions of rape or other violent sexual acts

22. Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or

wagering real cash or currency

23. Some Adult Assistance May Be Needed - Intended for very young

ages

24. Strong Language - Explicit and/or frequent use of profanity

25. Strong Lyrics - Explicit and/or frequent references to profanity,

sex, violence, alcohol or drug use in music

26. Strong Sexual Content - Graphic references to and/or depictions

of sexual behavior, possibly including nudity

27. Suggestive Themes - Mild provocative references or materials

Tobacco Reference - Reference to and/or images of tobacco products

28. Use of Drugs - The consumption or use of illegal drugs

29. Use of Alcohol - The consumption of alcoholic beverages

30. Use of Tobacco - The consumption of tobacco products

31. Violence - Scenes involving aggressive conflict

And sometimes there is an Online Rating Notice as well:

Online games that include user-generated content (e.g., chat, maps,

skins) carry the notice " Game Experience May Change During Online

Play " to warn consumers that content created by players of the game

has not been rated by the ESRB.

So to answer your question, Stan (Stan then asked: " Alcohol is

defined as a beverage over a certain percent alcohol, I think

something like 1%. How do you do that with a video game? " ), the way

you 'do' that is to educate create an ID that encompasses legal ways

to ensure that the majority of people adhere to the rules.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

Stan wrote: " Everyone, if you have a kid who beats people to death

with golf clubs and baseball bats, don't let him play video games.

But that does not mean that a kid playing a video game is going to

get bored and start killing real people. "

Raven responded: " No it does not mean that. You are correct, Stan.

However, a child who has been desensitized to violence will be less

averse to dismissing violence in his life and more accepting of

violent behaviour by others as well as at his own hand. "

Stan added to that: " That's the " no exposure to any violence "

philosophy. That would include tee vee, movies, and for that matter

history books. That may or may not reduce violence, but I'd look to

other reasons for kids being violent. Violence in the family would

be a good place to start looking. "

Reading all those studies I references in my previous post to you

would help you understand the correlation between video game violence

and violence and aggression in children who play video games with

violence and who are desensitized to human qualities.

And do not presume to know what my philosophy is. I do not advocate

ZERO exposure to violence of any sort. Life by virtue of being what

it is, is violent. Birth is not calm and free of bloodshed. And

everything between birth and death has various levels of aggression

and/or violence.

However, if all you do is fill an impressionable mind up with

violence day after day after day, you overwhelm the child and stress

the child's ability to see anything BUT violence and aggression.

Everything in moderation as you guide and mentor a child towards

adulthood, Stan.

So while I do not believe that all violence and aggression must be

removed from a child's education (the cycle of life is violent too

you know), I do believe that putting it into a proper perspective is

imperative. Video game violence and aggression is not putting the

reality of life into a proper perspective for any child.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

Stan, you may want to read this... It may be useful in educating the teachers at your school on how to deal with bullying. Of particular interest is what I have set in bold...

http://www.apa.org/releases/videogames.html

VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES CAN INCREASE AGGRESSION

May Be More Harmful Than Violent Television and Movies Because of the Interactive Nature of the Games

WASHINGTON - Playing violent video games like Doom, Wolfenstein 3D or Mortal Kombat can increase a person's aggressive thoughts, feelings and behavior both in laboratory settings and in actual life, according to two studies appearing in the April issue of the American Psychological Association's (APA) Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Furthermore, violent video games may be more harmful than violent television and movies because they are interactive, very engrossing and require the player to identify with the aggressor, say the researchers.

"One study reveals that young men who are habitually aggressive may be especially vulnerable to the aggression-enhancing effects of repeated exposure to violent games," said psychologists Craig A. , Ph.D., and E. Dill, Ph.D. "The other study reveals that even a brief exposure to violent video games can temporarily increase aggressive behavior in all types of participants."

The first study involved 227 college students who completed a measure of trait aggressiveness and reported their actual aggressive behaviors (delinquency) in the recent past. They also reported their video game playing habits. "We found that students who reported playing more violent video games in junior and high school engaged in more aggressive behavior," said lead author , of Iowa State University. "We also found that amount of time spent playing video games in the past was associated with lower academic grades in college."

In the second study, 210 college students played either a violent (Wolfenstein 3D) or nonviolent video game (Myst). A short time later, the students who played the violent video game punished an opponent (received a noise blast with varying intensity) for a longer period of time than did students who had played the nonviolent video game.

"Violent video games provide a forum for learning and practicing aggressive solutions to conflict situations," said Dr. . "In the short run, playing a violent video game appears to affect aggression by priming aggressive thoughts. Longer-term effects are likely to be longer lasting as well, as the player learns and practices new aggression-related scripts that can become more and more accessible for use when real-life conflict situations arise."

"One major concern is the active nature of the learning environment of the video game," say the authors. "This medium is potentially more dangerous than exposure to violent television and movies, which are known to have substantial effects on aggression and violence."

Article: "Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts, Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life," Craig A. , Ph.D., Iowa State University of Science and Technology and E. Dill, Ph.D., Lenoir-Rhyne College, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol. 78, No. 4.

(Full text of the article is available from the APA Public Affairs Office or at http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp784772.pdf)

Ultimately, the violence will be as realistic as in the movies.That still doesn't blur fiction or action fiction with reality.

Children also watch cartoon characters run over by road pavingequipment, etc. Just because they believe in Santa Clausdoesn't mean they will transfer violence from a game to people.

The statement was that the act was no different from a videogame. That still isn't the same as, "I couldn't distinguishbetween a homeless person and a video game enemy." They werejust saying it was easy to commit the violence and they didn'tcare, just like they didn't care what they killed on a videogame.

The child was originally told that Santa Clause was real.That's not the same as "realistic". Even a dog figures out thatthe image in a mirror is not a real dog.

- s

[Guest guest]

This thread is starting to get personal. Perhaps we should give it a rest for a while?

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

On 23 Feb 2007 environmental1st2003 wrote:

> Stan, you may want to read this... It may be useful in educating the

> teachers at your school on how to deal with bullying. Of particular

> interest is what I have set in bold...

>

> http://www.apa.org/releases/videogames.html

> VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES CAN INCREASE AGGRESSION

> May Be More Harmful Than Violent Television and Movies Because of the

> Interactive Nature of the Games

The people who become involved in those issues need to know that

things like bullying are priority issues. As to the details,

the people supervising the kids will of course be responsible to

establish a healthy environment. (It goes without saying that

bullying would not be tolerated at a school for autistics.)

I think it would be possible to determine if the games cause

bullying behaviour or the like, and more to the point, what kind

of games cause that.

- s

[Guest guest]

On 23 Feb 2007 ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> Stan wrote: " This still presupposes that violent games cause violent

> kids. If that were the case, kids where I used to live in the

> Philadelphia suburbs (Narberth), who probably had far more access to

> violent video games than their peers across City Line Ave. in

> Philadelphia proper would have been more violent ... <snip> ... "

>

> You have assumed that lack of income means lack of access to video

> games. You are terribly naive in that thought.

The access is probably fairly close, just as access to good

clothes is close. Regardless, it would be difficult to suppose

that kids there don't have at least as much access to whatever

video games they want. There are other factors that make it

safe to wander about Ardmore train station with 50 kids there

and yet 54th St. Station is closed for safety reasons. It's not

the video games.

I don't think it's income either. It's just that if violence is

not acceptable IRL, then video game violence won't change that.

> You may want to read some of the following studies that draw strong

> correlations between violence in video games and increased aggression

> in those playing these video games.

Wow, that's a lot. Since I'm not in a decision making capacity

regarding this, I would not be in a position to evaluate this.

(The school will establish what rules it requires according to

people who supervise those things.)

- s

[Guest guest]

Kim wrote: " How do you prove that they do not know murder is wrong?

Where could I find proof that those who've murdered homeless persons

believe that they think the homeless aren't people/humans/soul based

other than your personal experiences? "

By doing research and posting medical and scientific research studies

and papers that pertain to the subject material and that support your

claims, just as I posted 16 studies that support my argument that

video games with violent content increase violent and aggressive

behaviours in those who play said video games.

By posting factual information as I did when I provided information

from the ESRB website regarding how video games are rated and what

additional information is included in the rating of said video games.

By finding insightful reports by journalists following similar cases

where reputable medical sources have been called on as witnesses to

provide proof to the courts that confirms or disproves what is being

claimed by the District Attorney/Crown Prosecutor and/or the

accused's legal team.

If you want to find proof to support your argument, you go looking

for it ... especially if you are passionate about your stand on the

matter.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

Stan wrote: " The people who become involved in those issues need to

know that things like bullying are priority issues. As to the details,

the people supervising the kids will of course be responsible to

establish a healthy environment. (It goes without saying that bullying

would not be tolerated at a school for autistics.) "

I've heard the same sorts of claims made by administrators of other

schools as well ... claims that do not ring true because they are not

true.

Stan wrote: " I think it would be possible to determine if the games

cause bullying behaviour or the like, and more to the point, what kind

of games cause that. "

Are you then changing your opinion on the subject at hand and agreeing

that violent video games do indeed cause aggression and violence in

those who engage in gameplaying of violent video games?

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

Stan wrote: " My personal *generic* list (generic because each kid is

different, plus some parents object to things like sexual experience

or consider religious teachings high on the list), I'd list the

following, with the following APPROXIMATING the order of importance.

Some things aren't listed because I presume the values, etc. are

already learned:

1. nutritional issues

2. non-nutritional food health issues

3. compassion for animals (and by extension people) .. <snip> ...

....

435. Britany Spears

436. violence in video games.

Well, Stan, if violence in video games causes increased aggression

and violence in those who play said video games, it will certainly

interfere greatly with your #3 point as they will be less inclined to

understand compassion when they are enjoying blowing up people for

points.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

Stan wrote: " Wow, that's a lot. Since I'm not in a decision making

capacity regarding this, I would not be in a position to evaluate

this. (The school will establish what rules it requires according to

people who supervise those things.) "

When adults abdicate their responsibilities to help create and help

safeguard a good environment for minors, the first thing they do is say

they aren't in a position to evaluate studies with excellent data.

It's an easy way of saying it's not really their problem after all.

It's someone else's problem and someone else's job and when things go

terribly wrong, they are the first to shout loudly that they had

absolutely nothing to do with how things have gone terribly wrong. How

very interesting.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

On 24 Feb 2007 ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> Stan wrote:

> 3. compassion for animals (and by extension people) .. <snip> ...

> ...

> 436. violence in video games.

>

> Well, Stan, if violence in video games causes increased aggression

> and violence in those who play said video games, it will certainly

> interfere greatly with your #3 point as they will be less inclined to

> understand compassion when they are enjoying blowing up people for

> points.

That makes sense, but of course includes the condition " if

violence in video games causes ... violence " . I don't see it as

being a significant cause, but I do understand your point.

- s

[Guest guest]

On 24 Feb 2007 ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> Stan wrote: " I think it would be possible to determine if the games

> cause bullying behaviour or the like, and more to the point, what kind

> of games cause that. "

>

> Are you then changing your opinion on the subject at hand and agreeing

> that violent video games do indeed cause aggression and violence in

> those who engage in gameplaying of violent video games?

No, I don't think it's a significant factor, but if someone were

to show that it does cause violence, then I would accept that.

As of now, we have very mixed results. More significantly,

patterns of violence and patterns of youth violence don't

correspond to what one would suppose are patterns of video game

use.

I don't think there's a " but for " circumstance by which some

regulation of video games or any other media will cure the

problem.

- s

[Guest guest]

On 24 Feb 2007 ravenmagic2003 wrote:

> Stan wrote: " Wow, that's a lot. Since I'm not in a decision making

> capacity regarding this, I would not be in a position to evaluate

> this. (The school will establish what rules it requires according to

> people who supervise those things.) "

>

> When adults abdicate their responsibilities to help create and help

> safeguard a good environment for minors, the first thing they do is say

> they aren't in a position to evaluate studies with excellent data.

> It's an easy way of saying it's not really their problem after all.

> It's someone else's problem and someone else's job and when things go

> terribly wrong, they are the first to shout loudly that they had

> absolutely nothing to do with how things have gone terribly wrong. How

> very interesting.

That seems to relate to a " go read this book " list.