Re: Re: Maximizing cognitive abilities and academic potential

[Guest guest]

Attached are some articles on HEG.

Enjoy,

Levine

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:58 AM, magerx123 <matann@...> wrote:

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply.You are right on in your separation of the two types of participants. Sadly I'm on the side of the " know the material well before you DO anything " . I have this issue on other fields as well.

Perhaps I should start doing more instead of over-think it, putting more practice instead of learning.Since EEG has big learning curve, I was thinking about starting with HEG instead and later on add EEG. Though I do not know if I will get " enough " with HEG for my goals(compared to EEG) – if you can comment on it, it will be great.

I know you are selling mainly nIR HEG so you probably think it is better, but do you think pIR is inferior in the context of neurofeedback?I know the difference between the two, and I know in terms of resolution the pIR is not as good. But from what I've read – for feedback applications they are the same.

The reason I'm asking is because if pIR is just as good, I can get " PhysioPilot " GP8 hardware. It has pIR sensor, but can also be used with other peripheral sensors – which will give me the ability to work with heart rate coherence as well(it can also be used with EEG sensor, but only 1 channel which is probably not good enough to make proper assessments and training). The price is about the same as other HEG devices – so I think it will be a good buy and will give me a lot to work with for few months(before I'll add proper EEG device).

I'm aware that I just said I need to spend more time on doing instead of learning, but I would really appreciate if you could refer me to literature(books, researches, etc) that will help me get started with HEG and gain some knowledge about it.

I know it is pretty simple – get above baseline for " x " minutes, but I would love to read about how to properly do it and to read more about it and its applications. I'm a knowledge person, nothing I can do about it I guess :-)

Lastly, do you have any near future plans to create equivalent assessments and designs for BioEra? For peripheral and HEG work, I really prefer some BioEra designs I can get – but if it means I won't be able to use your EEG assessments and designs in the future, it's probably better that I will stick with BioExplorer(I don't want to waste money on buying both).

(On more thing – from your site, <900$ for HEG including hardware/software seems unreasonably low. I would love if you could explain. You can do it on email if you don't want to write prices here)Thanks again,

Matan.>> One of my favorite quotes about NF is: " All neurofeedback is peak

> performance training. " > > Certainly there are plenty of people who have> clearly dysfunctional patterns of behavior or limitations in attention> and/or control. Heck, with the psychiatric diagnostic manual (DSM IV)

> running to 886 pages--double the number in 1980 for DSM III), it's pretty> hard to be mentally healthy these days if you go looking for a diagnosis.> One of the key psychiatrists who worked in the version III--which only had

> 494 pages!-- Spitzer later said he regretted his part in the process,> because it " led to the medicalization of 20-30 percent of the population> who may not have had any serious mental problems! " Trying to stay out of

> that mill is a perfectly valid way to approach self-improvement.> > So let's leave to the side for now the question of whether you have> anything " wrong " with you or not. Mental health diagnoses are essentially

> descriptions of symptoms. What is Attention Deficit Disorder? It means> you have trouble paying attention. Why? What's the underlying issue?> Nobody knows. So my preference is to skip the diagnoses and ask the

> client what they would like to change: what would you like to be able to> do faster, better or more easily? Everybody has a few of those, even the> sanest person I know (me).> > Around 15 years ago, when I started adding " peak performance " to my work

> with ADHD and mood issues, etc., I thought it would be really cool to work> with clients who really had no problems. And since I was working hard on> developing my assessment at that time, I gathered data from their brains,

> so I could see what really functional brains looked like. Not> surprisingly, when I looked at the EEG's I found many of the same patterns> I was accustomed to training in people who DID have diagnoses. I still

> remember the first guy who came to me--a CPA who was chief financial> officer for a mid-sized corporation. He had no problems whatsoever--was> already a peak performer--and only wanted to be able to do more, do it

> faster and better. When I saw his brain patterns, I asked him, " so you> really don't experience any anxiety it all? " " Anxiety!? " he answered.> " It's with me every minute of every day--has been since I was a little

> kid. " But there was nothing " wrong " with him. I agreed. But we started> working on the patterns that indicated anxiety, and he experienced pretty> profound changes in his performance--and especially the responses of his

> wife and kids--before we ever started doing the " peak performance " > protocols.> > I strongly recommend that anyone working with EEG begin with an assessment> of your current brain patterns and develop a training plan based on those:

> Look at what you want to change before you start trying to change it. An> EEG package for as little as $1,400 will give you what you need to do most> any kind of training--and to do an assessment. You will be far from the

> first person on this list to take the step on your own and begin preparing> to train you own brain. It's where I started 21 years ago. I'm a great> believer that most of us learn skills and techniques most quickly and

> effectively by actually DOING the thing we want to learn. In the courses> I've been teaching since 2001, I've come to separate participants into two> major groups: there are those who go home and DO neurofeedback, a step at

> a time, stumble a little, make a few mistakes, but overcome the resistance> of fear and begin practicing; and there are those who go home and start> looking for the " best book " on neurofeedback or magazine articles, or a

> study group or ANYTHING that will help them avoid maybe making a mistake.> Most of the first group end up working with the process--some for many> years--and make major changes in their own lives and those of others who

> work with them. Not ONE of the second group (to my knowledge) has EVER> gone on to do a single training session, though they can wirte essays on a> dozen theories as to how it should be done.>

> Peak states in our field are often defined in the areas of synchrony> training among specific sites and alpha theta training (generally after> doing some other work first). But lots of people have existing patterns in

> their EEG's that make it extremely difficult for them to do either of these> kinds of training until other issues have been cleared.> > You might also seriously consider HEG instead of EEG (take a look at

> brain-trainer.com to learn more about this stuff). HEG works your> executive center, it's super easy to learn and use, only requires an hour> or so a week to achieve optimum results, and it uses the same software as

> EEG, so you can add EEG later, if you decide you want to,for less than> $900, and you can spend your time actually training instead of learning the> skills you need to learn to get going with EEG.>

> I guess this wasn't exactly what you asked, but I hope you find it helpful.> > Pete> --> Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 678 224 5895> BR 47 3346 6235> The Learning Curve, Inc.

9 of 9 File(s)

HEG-Instructions.pdf

hemoencephalography_neurofeedback.pdf

RegionalCerebralBloodFlow.pdf

EEGorHEG.pdf

AnEfficientBrainExerciseTherapy.pdf

BrainBloodFlowBiofeedback.pdf

pIR_HEG_article_10_25_01.pdf

HEGTALK1-AConceptualIntroductiontoHEG.pdf

PassiveInfraredHEG.pdf

[Guest guest]

Attached are some articles on HEG.

Enjoy,

Levine

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:58 AM, magerx123 <matann@...> wrote:

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply.You are right on in your separation of the two types of participants. Sadly I'm on the side of the " know the material well before you DO anything " . I have this issue on other fields as well.

Perhaps I should start doing more instead of over-think it, putting more practice instead of learning.Since EEG has big learning curve, I was thinking about starting with HEG instead and later on add EEG. Though I do not know if I will get " enough " with HEG for my goals(compared to EEG) – if you can comment on it, it will be great.

I know you are selling mainly nIR HEG so you probably think it is better, but do you think pIR is inferior in the context of neurofeedback?I know the difference between the two, and I know in terms of resolution the pIR is not as good. But from what I've read – for feedback applications they are the same.

The reason I'm asking is because if pIR is just as good, I can get " PhysioPilot " GP8 hardware. It has pIR sensor, but can also be used with other peripheral sensors – which will give me the ability to work with heart rate coherence as well(it can also be used with EEG sensor, but only 1 channel which is probably not good enough to make proper assessments and training). The price is about the same as other HEG devices – so I think it will be a good buy and will give me a lot to work with for few months(before I'll add proper EEG device).

I'm aware that I just said I need to spend more time on doing instead of learning, but I would really appreciate if you could refer me to literature(books, researches, etc) that will help me get started with HEG and gain some knowledge about it.

I know it is pretty simple – get above baseline for " x " minutes, but I would love to read about how to properly do it and to read more about it and its applications. I'm a knowledge person, nothing I can do about it I guess :-)

Lastly, do you have any near future plans to create equivalent assessments and designs for BioEra? For peripheral and HEG work, I really prefer some BioEra designs I can get – but if it means I won't be able to use your EEG assessments and designs in the future, it's probably better that I will stick with BioExplorer(I don't want to waste money on buying both).

(On more thing – from your site, <900$ for HEG including hardware/software seems unreasonably low. I would love if you could explain. You can do it on email if you don't want to write prices here)Thanks again,

Matan.>> One of my favorite quotes about NF is: " All neurofeedback is peak

> performance training. " > > Certainly there are plenty of people who have> clearly dysfunctional patterns of behavior or limitations in attention> and/or control. Heck, with the psychiatric diagnostic manual (DSM IV)

> running to 886 pages--double the number in 1980 for DSM III), it's pretty> hard to be mentally healthy these days if you go looking for a diagnosis.> One of the key psychiatrists who worked in the version III--which only had

> 494 pages!-- Spitzer later said he regretted his part in the process,> because it " led to the medicalization of 20-30 percent of the population> who may not have had any serious mental problems! " Trying to stay out of

> that mill is a perfectly valid way to approach self-improvement.> > So let's leave to the side for now the question of whether you have> anything " wrong " with you or not. Mental health diagnoses are essentially

> descriptions of symptoms. What is Attention Deficit Disorder? It means> you have trouble paying attention. Why? What's the underlying issue?> Nobody knows. So my preference is to skip the diagnoses and ask the

> client what they would like to change: what would you like to be able to> do faster, better or more easily? Everybody has a few of those, even the> sanest person I know (me).> > Around 15 years ago, when I started adding " peak performance " to my work

> with ADHD and mood issues, etc., I thought it would be really cool to work> with clients who really had no problems. And since I was working hard on> developing my assessment at that time, I gathered data from their brains,

> so I could see what really functional brains looked like. Not> surprisingly, when I looked at the EEG's I found many of the same patterns> I was accustomed to training in people who DID have diagnoses. I still

> remember the first guy who came to me--a CPA who was chief financial> officer for a mid-sized corporation. He had no problems whatsoever--was> already a peak performer--and only wanted to be able to do more, do it

> faster and better. When I saw his brain patterns, I asked him, " so you> really don't experience any anxiety it all? " " Anxiety!? " he answered.> " It's with me every minute of every day--has been since I was a little

> kid. " But there was nothing " wrong " with him. I agreed. But we started> working on the patterns that indicated anxiety, and he experienced pretty> profound changes in his performance--and especially the responses of his

> wife and kids--before we ever started doing the " peak performance " > protocols.> > I strongly recommend that anyone working with EEG begin with an assessment> of your current brain patterns and develop a training plan based on those:

> Look at what you want to change before you start trying to change it. An> EEG package for as little as $1,400 will give you what you need to do most> any kind of training--and to do an assessment. You will be far from the

> first person on this list to take the step on your own and begin preparing> to train you own brain. It's where I started 21 years ago. I'm a great> believer that most of us learn skills and techniques most quickly and

> effectively by actually DOING the thing we want to learn. In the courses> I've been teaching since 2001, I've come to separate participants into two> major groups: there are those who go home and DO neurofeedback, a step at

> a time, stumble a little, make a few mistakes, but overcome the resistance> of fear and begin practicing; and there are those who go home and start> looking for the " best book " on neurofeedback or magazine articles, or a

> study group or ANYTHING that will help them avoid maybe making a mistake.> Most of the first group end up working with the process--some for many> years--and make major changes in their own lives and those of others who

> work with them. Not ONE of the second group (to my knowledge) has EVER> gone on to do a single training session, though they can wirte essays on a> dozen theories as to how it should be done.>

> Peak states in our field are often defined in the areas of synchrony> training among specific sites and alpha theta training (generally after> doing some other work first). But lots of people have existing patterns in

> their EEG's that make it extremely difficult for them to do either of these> kinds of training until other issues have been cleared.> > You might also seriously consider HEG instead of EEG (take a look at

> brain-trainer.com to learn more about this stuff). HEG works your> executive center, it's super easy to learn and use, only requires an hour> or so a week to achieve optimum results, and it uses the same software as

> EEG, so you can add EEG later, if you decide you want to,for less than> $900, and you can spend your time actually training instead of learning the> skills you need to learn to get going with EEG.>

> I guess this wasn't exactly what you asked, but I hope you find it helpful.> > Pete> --> Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 678 224 5895> BR 47 3346 6235> The Learning Curve, Inc.

9 of 9 File(s)

HEG-Instructions.pdf

hemoencephalography_neurofeedback.pdf

RegionalCerebralBloodFlow.pdf

EEGorHEG.pdf

AnEfficientBrainExerciseTherapy.pdf

BrainBloodFlowBiofeedback.pdf

pIR_HEG_article_10_25_01.pdf

HEGTALK1-AConceptualIntroductiontoHEG.pdf

PassiveInfraredHEG.pdf

[Guest guest]

The rare studiers who finally get around to doing have to spend at least as much time learning to do as those who just do.  Maybe more, because their minds are all muddled up with stuff they don't understand.  Imagine how much harder it would be to learn to ride a bicycle if you had read six books on how to ride one before hand.

The studiers never make any income from what they study--just spend it on books and courses and videos and workshops that never get used.  Worse yet, the studiers never help anyone get better in their own lives, because they never DO anything with or for clients.

So you've decided you're a studier.  And you recognize that it hasn't been a very effective choice in your own life.  So now you are studying practicing.Sure, I'll be happy to answer your questions. There may be doers on this list who will actually understand what I'm saying (because they have experiential hooks on which to hang the information).

I'm sure someone has written a book on HEG, though I'm not aware of it.  Studiers love to write books and articles.  HEG, is a great place to start--and perhaps finish--because there ISN'T anything to study.  People who buy the hardware and software from TLC spend around $1475, have it within 2-4 days in most cases, then schedule a time to get online with me or Foxx.  We install the hardware and software and then take you through your first session, putting on the headband and opening the software and running the training.  After one session, there's not really a huge amount more to learn.  It's like aerobic exercise.  You do it once with someone who explains about target heart rates and shows how to take your pulse, etc.  Then the only thing left to achieve results is to DO it....oops.  Sorry.  You should be DOing HEG the day you get it in the mail.  You can certainly work with yourself or clients or friends or the postman or whoever you wish.  There's no assessment required, no measuring for sites, no placing electrodes and verifying signal quality, no learning multiple training approaches.  It takes a whopping hour a week (once every 4 days) maximum.  There's no prep and no cleanup.

You already seem to be confused about HEG, that the goal is to " get above target for X minutes " .  My goal is simpler. Figure out how to increase the nIR ratio as much as you can, then sustain it to a maximum of 10 minutes.  Studiers are still able to complicate nIR.  After doing a session and actually achieving results, it's not uncommon for me to get emails or calls asking what the ratio value " should " be, how they can graph the values, how much the value " should " rise in a session, should one site be higher or lower than the other, what does that mean?  Etc.

I've commented here recently on why I stopped selling pIR HEG. You can go to the homepage for this list and search messages--thousands of them to be studied if that's what you want.  I've used pIR for years (as well as nIR), but the way we were selling it with an HEG pIR Pendant was not producing as good results as I wanted.  If you want pIR, go to Jeff Carmen and buy his system directly from him.   Most the people I know who are using pIR and getting results are using his hardware and software.  And he even offers courses on pIR.

When there is a user interface for BioEra, then I'll look at developing assessment files, training designs, etc. in it.  It's amazing to me that someone who has never done a single session of NF is already decided that he really needs to go with BioEra instead of Bioexplorer.  I've been doing NF for 21 years, learned and worked with at least 8 software packages over the years.  I'm not including BioEra on that list because, in spite of all that experience, I've bought it twice with a commitment to figure it out and make it work...and I still haven't even produced the simplest training protocol with it.  That's definitely the place for a newbie to start.

Perhaps the first step for you is to recognize that a true " knowledge " person is one who knows how to do.  Someone who has read every book on basketball and coaching same but has never tried to hit a free throw--much less when the game is on the line and a crowd of people is yelling at him--is not really knowledgeable about basketball.  A person who can't drive a car doesn't KNOW about driving, no matter how much they've read or how many cars they've ridden in.

If you want to KNOW about HEG, go to 

http://www.brain-trainer.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?shop=get_item & item_id=30  and buy the package of hardware and software there.  In 5 days you'll be doing HEG, training yourself.  I haven't met anyone yet who couldn't benefit from improving executive function in their brains.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:58 AM, magerx123 <matann@...> wrote:

You are right on in your separation of the two types of participants. Sadly I'm on the side of the " know the material well before you DO anything " . I have this issue on other fields as well.

Perhaps I should start doing more instead of over-think it, putting more practice instead of learning.

Since EEG has big learning curve, I was thinking about starting with HEG instead and later on add EEG. Though I do not know if I will get " enough " with HEG for my goals(compared to EEG) – if you can comment on it, it will be great.

I know you are selling mainly nIR HEG so you probably think it is better, but do you think pIR is inferior in the context of neurofeedback?

I know the difference between the two, and I know in terms of resolution the pIR is not as good. But from what I've read – for feedback applications they are the same.

The reason I'm asking is because if pIR is just as good, I can get " PhysioPilot " GP8 hardware. It has pIR sensor, but can also be used with other peripheral sensors – which will give me the ability to work with heart rate coherence as well(it can also be used with EEG sensor, but only 1 channel which is probably not good enough to make proper assessments and training). The price is about the same as other HEG devices – so I think it will be a good buy and will give me a lot to work with for few months(before I'll add proper EEG device).

I'm aware that I just said I need to spend more time on doing instead of learning, but I would really appreciate if you could refer me to literature(books, researches, etc) that will help me get started with HEG and gain some knowledge about it.

I know it is pretty simple – get above baseline for " x " minutes, but I would love to read about how to properly do it and to read more about it and its applications. I'm a knowledge person, nothing I can do about it I guess :-)

Lastly, do you have any near future plans to create equivalent assessments and designs for BioEra? For peripheral and HEG work, I really prefer some BioEra designs I can get – but if it means I won't be able to use your EEG assessments and designs in the future, it's probably better that I will stick with BioExplorer(I don't want to waste money on buying both).

(On more thing – from your site, <900$ for HEG including hardware/software seems unreasonably low. I would love if you could explain. You can do it on email if you don't want to write prices here)

Thanks again,

Matan.

>

> One of my favorite quotes about NF is: " All neurofeedback is peak

> performance training. "

>

> Certainly there are plenty of people who have

> clearly dysfunctional patterns of behavior or limitations in attention

> and/or control. Heck, with the psychiatric diagnostic manual (DSM IV)

> running to 886 pages--double the number in 1980 for DSM III), it's pretty

> hard to be mentally healthy these days if you go looking for a diagnosis.

> One of the key psychiatrists who worked in the version III--which only had

> 494 pages!-- Spitzer later said he regretted his part in the process,

> because it " led to the medicalization of 20-30 percent of the population

> who may not have had any serious mental problems! " Trying to stay out of

> that mill is a perfectly valid way to approach self-improvement.

>

> So let's leave to the side for now the question of whether you have

> anything " wrong " with you or not. Mental health diagnoses are essentially

> descriptions of symptoms. What is Attention Deficit Disorder? It means

> you have trouble paying attention. Why? What's the underlying issue?

> Nobody knows. So my preference is to skip the diagnoses and ask the

> client what they would like to change: what would you like to be able to

> do faster, better or more easily? Everybody has a few of those, even the

> sanest person I know (me).

>

> Around 15 years ago, when I started adding " peak performance " to my work

> with ADHD and mood issues, etc., I thought it would be really cool to work

> with clients who really had no problems. And since I was working hard on

> developing my assessment at that time, I gathered data from their brains,

> so I could see what really functional brains looked like. Not

> surprisingly, when I looked at the EEG's I found many of the same patterns

> I was accustomed to training in people who DID have diagnoses. I still

> remember the first guy who came to me--a CPA who was chief financial

> officer for a mid-sized corporation. He had no problems whatsoever--was

> already a peak performer--and only wanted to be able to do more, do it

> faster and better. When I saw his brain patterns, I asked him, " so you

> really don't experience any anxiety it all? " " Anxiety!? " he answered.

> " It's with me every minute of every day--has been since I was a little

> kid. " But there was nothing " wrong " with him. I agreed. But we started

> working on the patterns that indicated anxiety, and he experienced pretty

> profound changes in his performance--and especially the responses of his

> wife and kids--before we ever started doing the " peak performance "

> protocols.

>

> I strongly recommend that anyone working with EEG begin with an assessment

> of your current brain patterns and develop a training plan based on those:

> Look at what you want to change before you start trying to change it. An

> EEG package for as little as $1,400 will give you what you need to do most

> any kind of training--and to do an assessment. You will be far from the

> first person on this list to take the step on your own and begin preparing

> to train you own brain. It's where I started 21 years ago. I'm a great

> believer that most of us learn skills and techniques most quickly and

> effectively by actually DOING the thing we want to learn. In the courses

> I've been teaching since 2001, I've come to separate participants into two

> major groups: there are those who go home and DO neurofeedback, a step at

> a time, stumble a little, make a few mistakes, but overcome the resistance

> of fear and begin practicing; and there are those who go home and start

> looking for the " best book " on neurofeedback or magazine articles, or a

> study group or ANYTHING that will help them avoid maybe making a mistake.

> Most of the first group end up working with the process--some for many

> years--and make major changes in their own lives and those of others who

> work with them. Not ONE of the second group (to my knowledge) has EVER

> gone on to do a single training session, though they can wirte essays on a

> dozen theories as to how it should be done.

>

> Peak states in our field are often defined in the areas of synchrony

> training among specific sites and alpha theta training (generally after

> doing some other work first). But lots of people have existing patterns in

> their EEG's that make it extremely difficult for them to do either of these

> kinds of training until other issues have been cleared.

>

> You might also seriously consider HEG instead of EEG (take a look at

> brain-trainer.com to learn more about this stuff). HEG works your

> executive center, it's super easy to learn and use, only requires an hour

> or so a week to achieve optimum results, and it uses the same software as

> EEG, so you can add EEG later, if you decide you want to,for less than

> $900, and you can spend your time actually training instead of learning the

> skills you need to learn to get going with EEG.

>

> I guess this wasn't exactly what you asked, but I hope you find it helpful.

>

> Pete

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 678 224 5895

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Pete,Should I consider my pirHEG unit a doorstop now?LizOn Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 9:18 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

The rare studiers who finally get around to doing have to spend at least as much time learning to do as those who just do.  Maybe more, because their minds are all muddled up with stuff they don't understand.  Imagine how much harder it would be to learn to ride a bicycle if you had read six books on how to ride one before hand.

The studiers never make any income from what they study--just spend it on books and courses and videos and workshops that never get used.  Worse yet, the studiers never help anyone get better in their own lives, because they never DO anything with or for clients.

So you've decided you're a studier.  And you recognize that it hasn't been a very effective choice in your own life.  So now you are studying practicing.Sure, I'll be happy to answer your questions. There may be doers on this list who will actually understand what I'm saying (because they have experiential hooks on which to hang the information).

I'm sure someone has written a book on HEG, though I'm not aware of it.  Studiers love to write books and articles.  HEG, is a great place to start--and perhaps finish--because there ISN'T anything to study.  People who buy the hardware and software from TLC spend around $1475, have it within 2-4 days in most cases, then schedule a time to get online with me or Foxx.  We install the hardware and software and then take you through your first session, putting on the headband and opening the software and running the training.  After one session, there's not really a huge amount more to learn.  It's like aerobic exercise.  You do it once with someone who explains about target heart rates and shows how to take your pulse, etc.  Then the only thing left to achieve results is to DO it....oops.  Sorry.  You should be DOing HEG the day you get it in the mail.  You can certainly work with yourself or clients or friends or the postman or whoever you wish.  There's no assessment required, no measuring for sites, no placing electrodes and verifying signal quality, no learning multiple training approaches.  It takes a whopping hour a week (once every 4 days) maximum.  There's no prep and no cleanup.

You already seem to be confused about HEG, that the goal is to " get above target for X minutes " .  My goal is simpler. Figure out how to increase the nIR ratio as much as you can, then sustain it to a maximum of 10 minutes.  Studiers are still able to complicate nIR.  After doing a session and actually achieving results, it's not uncommon for me to get emails or calls asking what the ratio value " should " be, how they can graph the values, how much the value " should " rise in a session, should one site be higher or lower than the other, what does that mean?  Etc.

I've commented here recently on why I stopped selling pIR HEG. You can go to the homepage for this list and search messages--thousands of them to be studied if that's what you want.  I've used pIR for years (as well as nIR), but the way we were selling it with an HEG pIR Pendant was not producing as good results as I wanted.  If you want pIR, go to Jeff Carmen and buy his system directly from him.   Most the people I know who are using pIR and getting results are using his hardware and software.  And he even offers courses on pIR.

When there is a user interface for BioEra, then I'll look at developing assessment files, training designs, etc. in it.  It's amazing to me that someone who has never done a single session of NF is already decided that he really needs to go with BioEra instead of Bioexplorer.  I've been doing NF for 21 years, learned and worked with at least 8 software packages over the years.  I'm not including BioEra on that list because, in spite of all that experience, I've bought it twice with a commitment to figure it out and make it work...and I still haven't even produced the simplest training protocol with it.  That's definitely the place for a newbie to start.

Perhaps the first step for you is to recognize that a true " knowledge " person is one who knows how to do.  Someone who has read every book on basketball and coaching same but has never tried to hit a free throw--much less when the game is on the line and a crowd of people is yelling at him--is not really knowledgeable about basketball.  A person who can't drive a car doesn't KNOW about driving, no matter how much they've read or how many cars they've ridden in.

If you want to KNOW about HEG, go to 

http://www.brain-trainer.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?shop=get_item & item_id=30  and buy the package of hardware and software there.  In 5 days you'll be doing HEG, training yourself.  I haven't met anyone yet who couldn't benefit from improving executive function in their brains.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:58 AM, magerx123 <matann@...> wrote:

You are right on in your separation of the two types of participants. Sadly I'm on the side of the " know the material well before you DO anything " . I have this issue on other fields as well.

Perhaps I should start doing more instead of over-think it, putting more practice instead of learning.

Since EEG has big learning curve, I was thinking about starting with HEG instead and later on add EEG. Though I do not know if I will get " enough " with HEG for my goals(compared to EEG) – if you can comment on it, it will be great.

I know you are selling mainly nIR HEG so you probably think it is better, but do you think pIR is inferior in the context of neurofeedback?

I know the difference between the two, and I know in terms of resolution the pIR is not as good. But from what I've read – for feedback applications they are the same.

The reason I'm asking is because if pIR is just as good, I can get " PhysioPilot " GP8 hardware. It has pIR sensor, but can also be used with other peripheral sensors – which will give me the ability to work with heart rate coherence as well(it can also be used with EEG sensor, but only 1 channel which is probably not good enough to make proper assessments and training). The price is about the same as other HEG devices – so I think it will be a good buy and will give me a lot to work with for few months(before I'll add proper EEG device).

I'm aware that I just said I need to spend more time on doing instead of learning, but I would really appreciate if you could refer me to literature(books, researches, etc) that will help me get started with HEG and gain some knowledge about it.

I know it is pretty simple – get above baseline for " x " minutes, but I would love to read about how to properly do it and to read more about it and its applications. I'm a knowledge person, nothing I can do about it I guess :-)

Lastly, do you have any near future plans to create equivalent assessments and designs for BioEra? For peripheral and HEG work, I really prefer some BioEra designs I can get – but if it means I won't be able to use your EEG assessments and designs in the future, it's probably better that I will stick with BioExplorer(I don't want to waste money on buying both).

(On more thing – from your site, <900$ for HEG including hardware/software seems unreasonably low. I would love if you could explain. You can do it on email if you don't want to write prices here)

Thanks again,

Matan.

>

> One of my favorite quotes about NF is: " All neurofeedback is peak

> performance training. "

>

> Certainly there are plenty of people who have

> clearly dysfunctional patterns of behavior or limitations in attention

> and/or control. Heck, with the psychiatric diagnostic manual (DSM IV)

> running to 886 pages--double the number in 1980 for DSM III), it's pretty

> hard to be mentally healthy these days if you go looking for a diagnosis.

> One of the key psychiatrists who worked in the version III--which only had

> 494 pages!-- Spitzer later said he regretted his part in the process,

> because it " led to the medicalization of 20-30 percent of the population

> who may not have had any serious mental problems! " Trying to stay out of

> that mill is a perfectly valid way to approach self-improvement.

>

> So let's leave to the side for now the question of whether you have

> anything " wrong " with you or not. Mental health diagnoses are essentially

> descriptions of symptoms. What is Attention Deficit Disorder? It means

> you have trouble paying attention. Why? What's the underlying issue?

> Nobody knows. So my preference is to skip the diagnoses and ask the

> client what they would like to change: what would you like to be able to

> do faster, better or more easily? Everybody has a few of those, even the

> sanest person I know (me).

>

> Around 15 years ago, when I started adding " peak performance " to my work

> with ADHD and mood issues, etc., I thought it would be really cool to work

> with clients who really had no problems. And since I was working hard on

> developing my assessment at that time, I gathered data from their brains,

> so I could see what really functional brains looked like. Not

> surprisingly, when I looked at the EEG's I found many of the same patterns

> I was accustomed to training in people who DID have diagnoses. I still

> remember the first guy who came to me--a CPA who was chief financial

> officer for a mid-sized corporation. He had no problems whatsoever--was

> already a peak performer--and only wanted to be able to do more, do it

> faster and better. When I saw his brain patterns, I asked him, " so you

> really don't experience any anxiety it all? " " Anxiety!? " he answered.

> " It's with me every minute of every day--has been since I was a little

> kid. " But there was nothing " wrong " with him. I agreed. But we started

> working on the patterns that indicated anxiety, and he experienced pretty

> profound changes in his performance--and especially the responses of his

> wife and kids--before we ever started doing the " peak performance "

> protocols.

>

> I strongly recommend that anyone working with EEG begin with an assessment

> of your current brain patterns and develop a training plan based on those:

> Look at what you want to change before you start trying to change it. An

> EEG package for as little as $1,400 will give you what you need to do most

> any kind of training--and to do an assessment. You will be far from the

> first person on this list to take the step on your own and begin preparing

> to train you own brain. It's where I started 21 years ago. I'm a great

> believer that most of us learn skills and techniques most quickly and

> effectively by actually DOING the thing we want to learn. In the courses

> I've been teaching since 2001, I've come to separate participants into two

> major groups: there are those who go home and DO neurofeedback, a step at

> a time, stumble a little, make a few mistakes, but overcome the resistance

> of fear and begin practicing; and there are those who go home and start

> looking for the " best book " on neurofeedback or magazine articles, or a

> study group or ANYTHING that will help them avoid maybe making a mistake.

> Most of the first group end up working with the process--some for many

> years--and make major changes in their own lives and those of others who

> work with them. Not ONE of the second group (to my knowledge) has EVER

> gone on to do a single training session, though they can wirte essays on a

> dozen theories as to how it should be done.

>

> Peak states in our field are often defined in the areas of synchrony

> training among specific sites and alpha theta training (generally after

> doing some other work first). But lots of people have existing patterns in

> their EEG's that make it extremely difficult for them to do either of these

> kinds of training until other issues have been cleared.

>

> You might also seriously consider HEG instead of EEG (take a look at

> brain-trainer.com to learn more about this stuff). HEG works your

> executive center, it's super easy to learn and use, only requires an hour

> or so a week to achieve optimum results, and it uses the same software as

> EEG, so you can add EEG later, if you decide you want to,for less than

> $900, and you can spend your time actually training instead of learning the

> skills you need to learn to get going with EEG.

>

> I guess this wasn't exactly what you asked, but I hope you find it helpful.

>

> Pete

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 678 224 5895

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Pete,Should I consider my pirHEG unit a doorstop now?LizOn Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 9:18 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

The rare studiers who finally get around to doing have to spend at least as much time learning to do as those who just do.  Maybe more, because their minds are all muddled up with stuff they don't understand.  Imagine how much harder it would be to learn to ride a bicycle if you had read six books on how to ride one before hand.

The studiers never make any income from what they study--just spend it on books and courses and videos and workshops that never get used.  Worse yet, the studiers never help anyone get better in their own lives, because they never DO anything with or for clients.

So you've decided you're a studier.  And you recognize that it hasn't been a very effective choice in your own life.  So now you are studying practicing.Sure, I'll be happy to answer your questions. There may be doers on this list who will actually understand what I'm saying (because they have experiential hooks on which to hang the information).

I'm sure someone has written a book on HEG, though I'm not aware of it.  Studiers love to write books and articles.  HEG, is a great place to start--and perhaps finish--because there ISN'T anything to study.  People who buy the hardware and software from TLC spend around $1475, have it within 2-4 days in most cases, then schedule a time to get online with me or Foxx.  We install the hardware and software and then take you through your first session, putting on the headband and opening the software and running the training.  After one session, there's not really a huge amount more to learn.  It's like aerobic exercise.  You do it once with someone who explains about target heart rates and shows how to take your pulse, etc.  Then the only thing left to achieve results is to DO it....oops.  Sorry.  You should be DOing HEG the day you get it in the mail.  You can certainly work with yourself or clients or friends or the postman or whoever you wish.  There's no assessment required, no measuring for sites, no placing electrodes and verifying signal quality, no learning multiple training approaches.  It takes a whopping hour a week (once every 4 days) maximum.  There's no prep and no cleanup.

You already seem to be confused about HEG, that the goal is to " get above target for X minutes " .  My goal is simpler. Figure out how to increase the nIR ratio as much as you can, then sustain it to a maximum of 10 minutes.  Studiers are still able to complicate nIR.  After doing a session and actually achieving results, it's not uncommon for me to get emails or calls asking what the ratio value " should " be, how they can graph the values, how much the value " should " rise in a session, should one site be higher or lower than the other, what does that mean?  Etc.

I've commented here recently on why I stopped selling pIR HEG. You can go to the homepage for this list and search messages--thousands of them to be studied if that's what you want.  I've used pIR for years (as well as nIR), but the way we were selling it with an HEG pIR Pendant was not producing as good results as I wanted.  If you want pIR, go to Jeff Carmen and buy his system directly from him.   Most the people I know who are using pIR and getting results are using his hardware and software.  And he even offers courses on pIR.

When there is a user interface for BioEra, then I'll look at developing assessment files, training designs, etc. in it.  It's amazing to me that someone who has never done a single session of NF is already decided that he really needs to go with BioEra instead of Bioexplorer.  I've been doing NF for 21 years, learned and worked with at least 8 software packages over the years.  I'm not including BioEra on that list because, in spite of all that experience, I've bought it twice with a commitment to figure it out and make it work...and I still haven't even produced the simplest training protocol with it.  That's definitely the place for a newbie to start.

Perhaps the first step for you is to recognize that a true " knowledge " person is one who knows how to do.  Someone who has read every book on basketball and coaching same but has never tried to hit a free throw--much less when the game is on the line and a crowd of people is yelling at him--is not really knowledgeable about basketball.  A person who can't drive a car doesn't KNOW about driving, no matter how much they've read or how many cars they've ridden in.

If you want to KNOW about HEG, go to 

http://www.brain-trainer.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?shop=get_item & item_id=30  and buy the package of hardware and software there.  In 5 days you'll be doing HEG, training yourself.  I haven't met anyone yet who couldn't benefit from improving executive function in their brains.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:58 AM, magerx123 <matann@...> wrote:

You are right on in your separation of the two types of participants. Sadly I'm on the side of the " know the material well before you DO anything " . I have this issue on other fields as well.

Perhaps I should start doing more instead of over-think it, putting more practice instead of learning.

Since EEG has big learning curve, I was thinking about starting with HEG instead and later on add EEG. Though I do not know if I will get " enough " with HEG for my goals(compared to EEG) – if you can comment on it, it will be great.

I know you are selling mainly nIR HEG so you probably think it is better, but do you think pIR is inferior in the context of neurofeedback?

I know the difference between the two, and I know in terms of resolution the pIR is not as good. But from what I've read – for feedback applications they are the same.

The reason I'm asking is because if pIR is just as good, I can get " PhysioPilot " GP8 hardware. It has pIR sensor, but can also be used with other peripheral sensors – which will give me the ability to work with heart rate coherence as well(it can also be used with EEG sensor, but only 1 channel which is probably not good enough to make proper assessments and training). The price is about the same as other HEG devices – so I think it will be a good buy and will give me a lot to work with for few months(before I'll add proper EEG device).

I'm aware that I just said I need to spend more time on doing instead of learning, but I would really appreciate if you could refer me to literature(books, researches, etc) that will help me get started with HEG and gain some knowledge about it.

I know it is pretty simple – get above baseline for " x " minutes, but I would love to read about how to properly do it and to read more about it and its applications. I'm a knowledge person, nothing I can do about it I guess :-)

Lastly, do you have any near future plans to create equivalent assessments and designs for BioEra? For peripheral and HEG work, I really prefer some BioEra designs I can get – but if it means I won't be able to use your EEG assessments and designs in the future, it's probably better that I will stick with BioExplorer(I don't want to waste money on buying both).

(On more thing – from your site, <900$ for HEG including hardware/software seems unreasonably low. I would love if you could explain. You can do it on email if you don't want to write prices here)

Thanks again,

Matan.

>

> One of my favorite quotes about NF is: " All neurofeedback is peak

> performance training. "

>

> Certainly there are plenty of people who have

> clearly dysfunctional patterns of behavior or limitations in attention

> and/or control. Heck, with the psychiatric diagnostic manual (DSM IV)

> running to 886 pages--double the number in 1980 for DSM III), it's pretty

> hard to be mentally healthy these days if you go looking for a diagnosis.

> One of the key psychiatrists who worked in the version III--which only had

> 494 pages!-- Spitzer later said he regretted his part in the process,

> because it " led to the medicalization of 20-30 percent of the population

> who may not have had any serious mental problems! " Trying to stay out of

> that mill is a perfectly valid way to approach self-improvement.

>

> So let's leave to the side for now the question of whether you have

> anything " wrong " with you or not. Mental health diagnoses are essentially

> descriptions of symptoms. What is Attention Deficit Disorder? It means

> you have trouble paying attention. Why? What's the underlying issue?

> Nobody knows. So my preference is to skip the diagnoses and ask the

> client what they would like to change: what would you like to be able to

> do faster, better or more easily? Everybody has a few of those, even the

> sanest person I know (me).

>

> Around 15 years ago, when I started adding " peak performance " to my work

> with ADHD and mood issues, etc., I thought it would be really cool to work

> with clients who really had no problems. And since I was working hard on

> developing my assessment at that time, I gathered data from their brains,

> so I could see what really functional brains looked like. Not

> surprisingly, when I looked at the EEG's I found many of the same patterns

> I was accustomed to training in people who DID have diagnoses. I still

> remember the first guy who came to me--a CPA who was chief financial

> officer for a mid-sized corporation. He had no problems whatsoever--was

> already a peak performer--and only wanted to be able to do more, do it

> faster and better. When I saw his brain patterns, I asked him, " so you

> really don't experience any anxiety it all? " " Anxiety!? " he answered.

> " It's with me every minute of every day--has been since I was a little

> kid. " But there was nothing " wrong " with him. I agreed. But we started

> working on the patterns that indicated anxiety, and he experienced pretty

> profound changes in his performance--and especially the responses of his

> wife and kids--before we ever started doing the " peak performance "

> protocols.

>

> I strongly recommend that anyone working with EEG begin with an assessment

> of your current brain patterns and develop a training plan based on those:

> Look at what you want to change before you start trying to change it. An

> EEG package for as little as $1,400 will give you what you need to do most

> any kind of training--and to do an assessment. You will be far from the

> first person on this list to take the step on your own and begin preparing

> to train you own brain. It's where I started 21 years ago. I'm a great

> believer that most of us learn skills and techniques most quickly and

> effectively by actually DOING the thing we want to learn. In the courses

> I've been teaching since 2001, I've come to separate participants into two

> major groups: there are those who go home and DO neurofeedback, a step at

> a time, stumble a little, make a few mistakes, but overcome the resistance

> of fear and begin practicing; and there are those who go home and start

> looking for the " best book " on neurofeedback or magazine articles, or a

> study group or ANYTHING that will help them avoid maybe making a mistake.

> Most of the first group end up working with the process--some for many

> years--and make major changes in their own lives and those of others who

> work with them. Not ONE of the second group (to my knowledge) has EVER

> gone on to do a single training session, though they can wirte essays on a

> dozen theories as to how it should be done.

>

> Peak states in our field are often defined in the areas of synchrony

> training among specific sites and alpha theta training (generally after

> doing some other work first). But lots of people have existing patterns in

> their EEG's that make it extremely difficult for them to do either of these

> kinds of training until other issues have been cleared.

>

> You might also seriously consider HEG instead of EEG (take a look at

> brain-trainer.com to learn more about this stuff). HEG works your

> executive center, it's super easy to learn and use, only requires an hour

> or so a week to achieve optimum results, and it uses the same software as

> EEG, so you can add EEG later, if you decide you want to,for less than

> $900, and you can spend your time actually training instead of learning the

> skills you need to learn to get going with EEG.

>

> I guess this wasn't exactly what you asked, but I hope you find it helpful.

>

> Pete

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> USA 678 224 5895

> BR 47 3346 6235

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Not if it's working.  As I wrote, I have used mine for several years and had good results with a number of people.  If you've seen clients improve with pIR, then what does it matter what I think?

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 Should I consider my pirHEG unit a doorstop now?

[Guest guest]

Liz~I have had some of my most dramatic training results using my PN Pir device and wouldn't give it up for anything. If you ever consider using yours as a doorstop please considering contacting me first. I would be happy to buy yours from you.~ “The life i touch for good or ill will touch

another life, and in turn another, until who knows where the trembling

stops or in what far place my touch will be felt.†~Frederick Buechner

From: "pvdtlc" <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 10:26:41 AMSubject: Re: Re: Maximizing cognitive abilities and academic potential

Not if it's working. As I wrote, I have used mine for several years and had good results with a number of people. If you've seen clients improve with pIR, then what does it matter what I think?

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Should I consider my pirHEG unit a doorstop now?

[Guest guest]

Pete, I am my only client (well actually my husband is always a willing victim; my son has moved on to college) and have no idea if it's working or not. I know that none of us have perceived any changes in our states of mind  (and my husband is a meditator and ancient hippie (not an obsessive-compulsive skeptic like me) who is always willing to have his mind " altered " by " this or that " ) -- so -- I don't know.

It does seem to work technically -- once I figured out that I need several minutes to get a baseline established. Before that it would go up and up and up and never come down. Liz

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:26 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Not if it's working.  As I wrote, I have used mine for several years and had good results with a number of people.  If you've seen clients improve with pIR, then what does it matter what I think?

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 Should I consider my pirHEG unit a doorstop now?

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Ok ! Margoshes, Ph.D.NY State Licensed PsychologistOn Feb 3, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Duncan <karenduncan@...> wrote:

Liz~I have had some of my most dramatic training results using my PN Pir device and wouldn't give it up for anything. If you ever consider using yours as a doorstop please considering contacting me first. I would be happy to buy yours from you.~ “The life i touch for good or ill will touch

another life, and in turn another, until who knows where the trembling

stops or in what far place my touch will be felt.†~Frederick Buechner

From: "pvdtlc" <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 10:26:41 AMSubject: Re: Re: Maximizing cognitive abilities and academic potential

Not if it's working. As I wrote, I have used mine for several years and had good results with a number of people. If you've seen clients improve with pIR, then what does it matter what I think?

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

Should I consider my pirHEG unit a doorstop now?