Re: In Utero Learning

[Guest guest]

ravenmagic2003 wrote:

>

>

> Since Ace opened the door to this subject (thanks, Ace ... what a

> cool subject), I thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss.

>

> Babies have been demonstrating awareness, vulnerability to

> influence, and intelligence for quite some time and in the last two

> decades, researchers have reached some incredible conclusions

There are two issues here. One is recall. The second is cognitive ability.

I have no recall myself before 5 years of age and then only one single

even. This event has no particular significance so I don't understand

why I remember it. I do find it hard to comprehend people having recall

from further back because I simply can not relate to it.

The cognitive ability is the part that I have the most problem with. My

whole life and my whole being centers around logic. It is the single

most important thing in my life. Everything I know and everything I

believe is based on logic. Without logic nothing exists for me. I drives

me, it creates my focus and it is the single source of success in

everything I do.

The cognitive ability Tom described simply defies all logic. There is no

place for me to go with that except not believe it. I understand that

babies quickly learn such things as " I cry, I get attention " . This is

simple cause and effect. A baby cries, it gets picked up. What we also

see though is that the reasoning power is still missing. A baby cries

when it is hungry, it cries when it is uncomfortable and it cries in

pain. It takes a while before it knows how to alter it's crying to

convey different things. It takes even longer before it learns to put it

into words.

Certainly a baby can feel or maybe even hear sounds before birth. I

suspect it must be mainly feel because the ears are not exposed to the

outside air where vibrations can cause sound.

There is no evidence that any baby has ever been born with the ability

to talk or actually reason. That is what life lessons are for. We all

know that reasoning power increases for many years. If we were born with

that we would have no need for any learning.

None of the studies you mention make reference to inutero reasoning

ability only. It's a long way from knowing to understanding. A baby or

fetus can know that music sooths. That does not mean it understands how

to create music.

Ace

[Guest guest]

Ace wrote: " I have no recall myself before 5 years of age and then

only one single even. This event has no particular significance so I

don't understand why I remember it. I do find it hard to comprehend

people having recall from further back because I simply can not

relate to it. "

Just because this is your reality, it does not mean this is true of

all persons. This is true of you. I can acurately recollect a

number of things from the age of 2 and 3. My child has accurately

described situations and events -- to me and to others -- that have

happened when he was less than 12 months of age.

These recollections have been recounted by him without prompting

from anyone. In one case, a television commercial prompted his

speaking of a situation that I had never spoken of after it happened.

When he was 7 years of age, he pointed to a white haired gentleman

in a three piece suit with a funky coloured tie, a brief case and

wearing Birkenstocks (what a combination) and he said, " Hey that guy

looks like your lawyer when I was a baby. " This amazed me because

the last time I had seen this lawyer was when my son was 6 months

old. I asked him why he thought the man looked like this particular

lawyer and my son answered that he remembered how weird it looked

for someone to wear a business suit AND sandals like that [meaning

Birkenstocks]. He was right; it was an odd combination as far as

fashion statements go.

I would also like to point out that when someone says they remember

when they were a baby in a crib, they may not be talking about being

an infant only a few days old (however, they may be talking about

being an infant only a few days old). Most of the time, infants are

in cribs until they are old enough to be moved to a 'real' bed

around the age of 2 years.

Ace wrote: " The cognitive ability is the part that I have the most

problem with. My whole life and my whole being centers around logic.

It is the single most important thing in my life. Everything I know

and everything I believe is based on logic. Without logic nothing

exists for me. I drives me, it creates my focus and it is the single

source of success in everything I do. "

I do not see where the information I posted is not based in logic

and factual information therefore I do not see a problem that you

appear to be seeing.

Ace wrote: " The cognitive ability Tom described simply defies all

logic. "

No, it does not defy logic. It just goes against what you are

choosing to believe and you are not open to logic as it can be

followed in medical and scientific research where the conclusions

are different than your currently held beliefs.

Ace wrote: " There is no place for me to go with that except not

believe it. "

Perhaps you need to do more research on the subject then.

Ace wrote: " I understand that babies quickly learn such things as " I

cry, I get attention " . This is simple cause and effect. A baby

cries, it gets picked up. What we also see though is that the

reasoning power is still missing. A baby cries when it is hungry, it

cries when it is uncomfortable and it cries in pain. It takes a

while before it knows how to alter it's crying to convey different

things. It takes even longer before it learns to put it into words. "

Just a quarter century ago, the great medical minds believed that

newborns could not feel pain and they have since learned

differently. Just a quarter century ago, the great medical minds

believe that a fetus could not feel pain and they ahve since learned

differently.

As for putting things into words, most Aspies I know think in terms

of pictures even when they have language skills. Just because

someone does not speaks with words does not mean that they are not

able to form cohesive thought patterns and it does not mean that

they are 'stupid.'

Ace wrote: " None of the studies you mention make reference to

inutero [sic] reasoning ability only. It's a long way from knowing

to understanding. A baby or fetus can know that music sooths. That

does not mean it understands how to create music. "

When you have read all the studies that I mentioned, we will discuss

what you have learned and what you have extrapolated from these same

studies.

Until then, I am unwilling to accept your personal experience alone

as the sole marker that determines whether an adult is able to

remember incidents accurately that happened to him or her during the

infant and toddler years.

Raven

[Guest guest]

RE in utero learning. (I'm reading the posts in reverse chronological order, catching up. Apologies for an asynchronies.) This debate goes back at least to Aristotelian empiricism versus Platonic Idealism. Recently it has been the basis for much of the so-called nature-nurture "debates". Harvard evolutionary psychologist Pinker likes to use the example of Helen Keller- Born deaf and blind and cut off from the world, finally she met a teacher who could work for her particular situation. In a span of just a couple of years or so Helen developed extremely rapidly catching up to her age peers (and surpassing to some degree) in her ability to communicate and her command of the english language. It's "as if" an outline of the knowledge (a universal grammar nearly all humans share for example) was already developed and ready, almost

starved even, for the right kind of input. Then when the teacher came along- it all suddenly blossomed. Evolutionary psychology, if you want to get really abstract and metaphorical, is filling out details in the two thousand year Great Debate between Aristotle and Plato about the nature of "Ideals" (...platonic forms... they go by many names... collective unconscious...and so on.) Another aspect to all this- is critical developmental periods. Humans are best at learning languages up through age 12, and are only really good from around 3 to 8. In the insect world the notion of different organs (including the equivalent idea of "mental organs" or brain modules) for different stages in the insects life (pupa, worker bee, ...or if fed royal jelly perhaps queen bee...) ...different stages in the life require different scripts- computer programs if you like, that take different kinds of input and process those kinds

of input. So for example, in evolutionary psychology one of the ideas people are working on is that when men get into long term relationships they need to tone down their aggressiveness when around their family- and this corresponds with empirically decreased levels of testosterone in men in those situations. In effect- there is a kind of "daddy" module for daddy behaviors to be elicited in response to certain kinds of stimulus cues that in ancestral environments indicated having-being-in a family. (But a warning: Women who think they will tame the "bad boy" in their man, I've observed, often fail.) So all this leads me to ask the question- Observing that some aspects of ASDs occur around 2.5 years old in most cases (plus or minus a year? I don't really know)... is it just a bad random combination of genes from the parents? Or is it that the 18 month old is performing certain life-stage operations and they go awry? (Possibly

due to toxins.) Maybe it is just that the child is laying down structures for use later in life....too many questions really. (I've sometimes thought my name should be "too many questions!" cause that's what people have so often said at me.) Heph acsnag@... wrote: ravenmagic2003 wrote:> > > Since Ace opened the door to this subject (thanks, Ace ... what a> cool subject), I thought it would be an

interesting topic to discuss.> > Babies have been demonstrating awareness, vulnerability to> influence, and intelligence for quite some time and in the last two> decades, researchers have reached some incredible conclusions There are two issues here. One is recall. The second is cognitive ability.I have no recall myself before 5 years of age and then only one single even. This event has no particular significance so I don't understand why I remember it. I do find it hard to comprehend people having recall from further back because I simply can not relate to it.The cognitive ability is the part that I have the most problem with. My whole life and my whole being centers around logic. It is the single most important thing in my life. Everything I know and everything I believe is based on logic. Without logic nothing exists for me. I drives me, it creates my focus and it is the single source of

success in everything I do.The cognitive ability Tom described simply defies all logic. There is no place for me to go with that except not believe it. I understand that babies quickly learn such things as "I cry, I get attention". This is simple cause and effect. A baby cries, it gets picked up. What we also see though is that the reasoning power is still missing. A baby cries when it is hungry, it cries when it is uncomfortable and it cries in pain. It takes a while before it knows how to alter it's crying to convey different things. It takes even longer before it learns to put it into words.Certainly a baby can feel or maybe even hear sounds before birth. I suspect it must be mainly feel because the ears are not exposed to the outside air where vibrations can cause sound.There is no evidence that any baby has ever been born with the ability to talk or actually reason. That is what life lessons are

for. We all know that reasoning power increases for many years. If we were born with that we would have no need for any learning.None of the studies you mention make reference to inutero reasoning ability only. It's a long way from knowing to understanding. A baby or fetus can know that music sooths. That does not mean it understands how to create music.AceHephaestus Clubfoothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestushttp://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hephaestus.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

>

> " I have no recall myself before 5 years of age and then only one

single

> even. "

I have memories from when I was two and one possibly of when I was a

baby.

When I was 3 I knew that something was wrong with my mother, didn't

know what it was, just that she wasn't right. When I saw how my

friend's mother was, normal, something clicked and I knew I had to

get away from my mother to be with this mother. So I ran away,

somehow remembering where they lived, though it was down many

different streets and far away. I got as far as seeing the building

my friend lived in, when they found me. I was mad. The memory is very

clear and in much detail. I suppose you could call that logic, but it

was more like a sense.

" Certainly a baby can feel or maybe even hear sounds before birth. I

> suspect it must be mainly feel because the ears are not exposed to

the

> outside air where vibrations can cause sound. "

Babies know their mothers' and fathers' voices when they're born.

I've heard stories of people as adults recognizing a piece of music

they've never heard before only to learn their mother played or

listened to it when they were in the womb. Sound travels through

water, too, more efficiently. I don't think there is a definite line

when reasoning begins in a human. If someone is very intelligent or

has certain abilities it would stand to reason that they could do

things earlier or better than someone of average intelligence.

[Guest guest]

Some people develop the ability to reason fast that others though.

Tom

Administrator

We all know that reasoning power increases for many years. If we were

born with that we would have no need for any learning.

[Guest guest]

>

> " Some people develop the ability to reason fast that others though. "

Very intelligent people see the world for the way it really is and

that is depressing. Sometimes I wonder if the brains' chemicals keep

us falsely happy so we don't feel what's really wrong and that our

messed up world is out of step with the universe, with the way things

should be, and if our intelligence/strong mind/thinking ability is

stronger than the chemicals, we suffer. When we see the badness and

wrongness when we're young I believe that imprints on our

impressionable minds and becomes a part of how we think, who we are.

When we're young we don't have the ways to deal with it that adults

do, and we carry that with us when we're older.

I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I think it's a part.

[Guest guest]

If someone hasn't already mentioned- If you have a good long term memory- good long term recall- you remember the bad as well as the good. Most people just remember the good. Most people seem to remember only the happy events from their childhoods. This is somewhat anecdotal, but I recall reading somewhere a researcher expressing shock at finding out what kids are really like, as opposed to how the researcher remembered their own childhood. Old Chinese saying: I hear I forget. I see I remember. I do I understand. It is kind of a gross generalization perhaps but I suspect that is generally true in cognitive psychology. If ASD typically involves a shift toward more visually-oriented thinking (Temple Grandin quotes could go here) then that may be an explanation, on average, why (on average again), ASD persons may remember more events from their childhoods.

On a neurocognitive level, there may be something going on with the amygdala that is usually not NT in ASD and which plays a big role in remembering emotional events...or is it a role in forgetting emotional traumas....? (Again with the too many questions already!) Heph mikecarrie01 <mikecarrie01@...> wrote: >>"Some people develop the ability to reason fast that others though."Very intelligent people see the world for the way it really is and that is depressing. Sometimes I wonder if the brains' chemicals keep us falsely happy so we don't feel what's really wrong and that our messed up world is out of step with the universe, with the way things should be, and if our intelligence/strong mind/thinking ability is stronger than the chemicals, we suffer. When we see the badness and wrongness when we're young I believe that imprints on our impressionable minds and becomes a part of how we think, who we are. When we're young we don't have the ways to deal with it that adults do, and we carry that with us when we're older. I'm sure it's more complicated than

that, but I think it's a part.Hephaestus

Clubfoothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestushttp://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hephaestus.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi

How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

I've seen a TV show that said people have a tendency to embellish the

past as time goes by and misremember what really happened.

I don't think Aspies do this though, and that is why they are many

times thought of as grim and gloomy.

Tom

Administrator

This is somewhat anecdotal, but I recall reading somewhere a

researcher expressing shock at finding out what kids are really like,

as opposed to how the researcher remembered their own childhood.

[Guest guest]

Mmmmmmm interesting theory. I have previously read that the earlier

one experiences depression the more likely one will be prone to

depression - I think I read a theory that early depression has an

affect on the wiring of the brain and each subsequent period of

depression makes one more and more prone to depression.

> >

> > " Some people develop the ability to reason fast that others

though. "

>

> Very intelligent people see the world for the way it really is and

> that is depressing. Sometimes I wonder if the brains' chemicals

keep

> us falsely happy so we don't feel what's really wrong and that our

> messed up world is out of step with the universe, with the way

things

> should be, and if our intelligence/strong mind/thinking ability is

> stronger than the chemicals, we suffer. When we see the badness and

> wrongness when we're young I believe that imprints on our

> impressionable minds and becomes a part of how we think, who we

are.

> When we're young we don't have the ways to deal with it that adults

> do, and we carry that with us when we're older.

>

> I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I think it's a part.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> " If you have a good long term memory- good long term recall- you

remember the bad as well as the good. Most people just remember the

good. Most people seem to remember only the happy events from their

childhoods. This is somewhat anecdotal, but I recall reading

somewhere a researcher expressing shock at finding out what kids are

really like, as opposed to how the researcher remembered their own

childhood. "

Yes, it looks like that's what happened to you, Tom--too many

memories and too many bad ones for so young a child, from the trauma

of birth (what a start!) on.

I think the fact that Aspies also aren't easily brainwashed or go

along with the crowd or what they're told and we are able to see

things for what they are also plays a part. If certain things are

done in a family that aren't right an Aspie child would more easily

see that. I've always been puzzled at how easily most people become

what their families taught them, right or wrong and believe things

that make no sense. It's easier for a child, later an adult, to just

follow what they've been told, never knowing any different.

Back to the intelligence thing--about 7 or 8 years ago something

happened to my brain so that I lost some of my intelligence. I had a

minor stroke around that time, so that may have been it. It was a

strange experience to go into my brain and find it didn't work quite

as well. I lost certain abilities such as the ability to instantly

think of illustrations. But I also lost a good bit of the pain that

intelligence brings (ever see the movie, Pi?). It's not like in the

book, 'Flowers for Algernon', though. Once having been very

intelligent, I still retain the memory of it, the pathways created,

and I still know how to use my brain (and I'm still of above average

intelligence so obviously that helps), but there's just a little

frustration when I try to think to the degree I used to and can't. It

actually hurts to do so. But the point is, things in general are a

little easier, and there's less pain.

[Guest guest]

I've noticed there's a difference among the general population, as

well. Some remember only the good times, and for others the bad times

take center stage. Some have a mix.

I have something in me that fights to highlight the good times, really

actually, the good feelings I remember. It's like I can feel the bad

memories and bad feelings in a greater degree, as part of me, but good

feelings I've had will just pop into my mind and I'll hang on to those

and try to keep them and add to them. Then I concentrate on good things

and doing things I like and trying to be around good people and good

things. Even though it's not always possible, at least as an adult I

have more control of my environment and what I chose to do, then I did

as a child, teenager and even clueless young adult. As a child I had a

fantasy world, including the escape of books, and nature, that helped

me then.

>

> This is somewhat anecdotal, but I recall reading somewhere a

> researcher expressing shock at finding out what kids are really like,

> as opposed to how the researcher remembered their own childhood.

>

[Guest guest]

Tom, I had an experience a few years ago that taught me that honesty is

not always the best policy. It also helped me see that some of the

falseness today may be a protection, possibly even from God, to keep us

from experiencing too much pain.

About 10 years ago my father, whom I had only the most superficial,

occasional relationship with, began being calling me and being very

kind, fatherly (something new). I began talking to him and visiting him

and my stepmother. They live in a beautiful place and between that, the

things we did, and our improving relationship, I began to heal a lot of

the pain I had because of our relationship when I was a child. I never

did trust him completely, but enough to feel happy and heal. Well about

5 years into this I found out that it was all a lie, he and my

stepmother were just putting on, because they needed the people in

their area to believe they were good parents, especially that he was a

good father. Because I never completely trusted, it didn't hurt me that

much, and because of the healing I am much better off than I was

before. I actually can think of many of our times with fondness, though

they were a lie. Healing based on a lie--I never would have imagined

it, yet there it is.

>

> This is somewhat anecdotal, but I recall reading somewhere a

> researcher expressing shock at finding out what kids are really like,

> as opposed to how the researcher remembered their own childhood.

>

[Guest guest]

That makes sense. But to counter that, there's the ability to learn

from depression so that next time you can recognize it and fight it.

That was true of me, anyway. If someone gets depressed for the first

time as an adult wouldn't it be more shocking and debilitating or

would it be easier because they have previous memories and abilities

to draw on?

> > >

> > > " Some people develop the ability to reason fast that others

> though. "

> >

> > Very intelligent people see the world for the way it really is

and

> > that is depressing. Sometimes I wonder if the brains' chemicals

> keep

> > us falsely happy so we don't feel what's really wrong and that

our

> > messed up world is out of step with the universe, with the way

> things

> > should be, and if our intelligence/strong mind/thinking ability

is

> > stronger than the chemicals, we suffer. When we see the badness

and

> > wrongness when we're young I believe that imprints on our

> > impressionable minds and becomes a part of how we think, who we

> are.

> > When we're young we don't have the ways to deal with it that

adults

> > do, and we carry that with us when we're older.

> >

> > I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I think it's a part.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I had a weird memory problem after my last suicide attempt. It seem

to affect only certain areas. For instance, I have read " To Kill a

Mockingbird " and other books many times, but after the attempt I

couldn't remember a thing about any of them. I read them through

once again, and it was like reading the novels for the first time.

But since those new first readings, my memory has been the samen as

it was before the suicide attempt. I have not forgotten one bit of

them.

Over a period of years, most of the memory I've lost appears to have

come back, but not all.

Tom

Administrator

Back to the intelligence thing--about 7 or 8 years ago something

happened to my brain so that I lost some of my intelligence. I had a

minor stroke around that time, so that may have been it. It was a

strange experience to go into my brain and find it didn't work quite

as well. I lost certain abilities such as the ability to instantly

think of illustrations. But I also lost a good bit of the pain that

intelligence brings (ever see the movie, Pi?). It's not like in the

book, 'Flowers for Algernon', though. Once having been very

intelligent, I still retain the memory of it, the pathways created,

and I still know how to use my brain (and I'm still of above average

intelligence so obviously that helps), but there's just a little

frustration when I try to think to the degree I used to and can't. It

actually hurts to do so. But the point is, things in general are a

little easier, and there's less pain.

[Guest guest]

You have such a phenomenal memory, maybe that part of your brain is

just so strong. I've always had a poor memory, so I can't really

imagine what it must be like for you, the good and the bad. I would

love to have the good, but of course, not the bad.

>

> Back to the intelligence thing--about 7 or 8 years ago something

> happened to my brain so that I lost some of my intelligence. I had a

> minor stroke around that time, so that may have been it. It was a

> strange experience to go into my brain and find it didn't work quite

> as well. I lost certain abilities such as the ability to instantly

> think of illustrations. But I also lost a good bit of the pain that

> intelligence brings (ever see the movie, Pi?). It's not like in the

> book, 'Flowers for Algernon', though. Once having been very

> intelligent, I still retain the memory of it, the pathways created,

> and I still know how to use my brain (and I'm still of above average

> intelligence so obviously that helps), but there's just a little

> frustration when I try to think to the degree I used to and can't.

It

> actually hurts to do so. But the point is, things in general are a

> little easier, and there's less pain.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I see no reason to counter depression since it is a natural reaction

to external stimuli. Would you tell a crying baby to shut up and be

happy? It can't be done. The baby is crying for a reason...so let it

have it's feelings.

The thing to do is to try to figure out why it is crying and do what

you can to solve the problem.

The problem with people who are depressed is that no one cares to

help them or no one CAN help them. If you try to then say " Don't be

depressed " it's a double whammy. First you don't help them and then

you deny them the right to have their feelings.

To tell you the truth, depression is my only source of strength

sometimes because most people fail me. To lose it would mean I would

then have nothing to get me through.

Tom

Administrator

That makes sense. But to counter that, there's the ability to learn

from depression so that next time you can recognize it and fight it.

That was true of me, anyway. If someone gets depressed for the first

time as an adult wouldn't it be more shocking and debilitating or

would it be easier because they have previous memories and abilities

to draw on?

[Guest guest]

Tom wrote: " I see no reason to counter depression since it is a

natural reaction to external stimuli. Would you tell a crying baby

to shut up and be happy? It can't be done. The baby is crying for a

reason...so let it have it's feelings. "

All behaviour serves a purpose. All behaviour has its roots in

emotions. Therefore, when a baby cries there is always a reason and

the reason is tied to a feeling. To teach an infant NOT to express

those feelings is actually very harmful to the essence of the

infant. In learning that certain emotions are not acceptable, the

infant will learn to become resentful for being denied his or her

feelings and then you have just complicated this infant's life.

I agree with Tom here ... people should be allowed to experience

their feelings in whatever way is appropriate for the person

experiencing those feelings. It is disrespectful to marginalize or

negate another person's feelings no matter well-intentioned the

platitudes may be.

Tom wrote: " The thing to do is to try to figure out why it is

crying and do what you can to solve the problem. "

I would like to add that if you realize that you cannot do anything

to help resolve the situation, it is important to acknowledge that

the other person is experiencing their feelings and then to support

them in this experience. And for goodness sake, no platitudes ...

no " things will look different in the light of day " or " tomorrow's

another day " or " things could be worse " or whatever is the platitude

of choice at the time.

Raven

[Guest guest]

For the short time I lost my memory, it was rather alarming because I

noticed the disparity in before/after in many different ways. And all

the ways were accidental.

I saw " To Kill A Mockingbird " sitting on the shelf and think to

myself... " That's a good book. " And what I always do when I see a book

I've read is recite the first line. That time I couldn't do it, and

when I picked up the book and read the first few paragraphs, I didn't

remember any of it.

Then I started picking up OTHER books I've read and I didn't remember

ANY of them.

I even picked up some stories I had WRITTEN and could not remember

writing them.

Now my memory seems to be back in full, but somemtimes I have trouble

filing memories away as well as I used to.

The one thing I am thankful for is that my memory stayed consistent in

regards to my marriage. My mind blocked most of it out of my head

shortly after my divorce (and long before my suicide attempt) and now

that my memory is recovered, my marriage memories have stayed blocked.

Tom

Administrator

You have such a phenomenal memory, maybe that part of your brain is

just so strong. I've always had a poor memory, so I can't really

imagine what it must be like for you, the good and the bad. I would

love to have the good, but of course, not the bad.

[Guest guest]

>

> " I see no reason to counter depression since it is a natural

reaction

> to external stimuli. Would you tell a crying baby to shut up and be

> happy? It can't be done. The baby is crying for a reason...so let

it

> have it's feelings.

>

> The thing to do is to try to figure out why it is crying and do

what

> you can to solve the problem. "

But is depression a feeling? It's a state the mind has gotten into,

from a number of feelings and others factors. A cascade that has

resulted in depression. One thing happens, then another, and your

mind reacts negatively, maybe this has happened before and there's a

feeling of defeat at it happening again. Intelligence plays a role,

and sensitivity--one can't just shake things off and go about their

simple lives, as others do. And being sensitive will cause the person

to hold onto the pain. Physical things--chemical/hormonal/nutrient

imbalances, eating badly is a big factor for someone prone to

depression, poor sleep, lack of exercise.

I found that I had a deficiency of lithium, and when I supplemented

with that my constant low-level depression went away. There's a huge

deficiency problem in the US of Vitamin D and Omega-3s. People don't

get enough sun for the former, and not enough good fats for the

latter. Lack of these cause depression. Other things as well.

Addressing physical problems/causes first will help a lot.

Often thrown in there, too, is not understanding what is really

bothering us. We fool ourselves or we don't see things that are wrong

and they go into our subconsious and fester.

>

> " The problem with people who are depressed is that no one cares to

> help them or no one CAN help them. If you try to then say " Don't be

> depressed " it's a double whammy. First you don't help them and then

> you deny them the right to have their feelings.:

Anyone who says 'don't be depressed' has never been depressed and/or

doesn't understand depression. You can't snap out of it.

>

> " To tell you the truth, depression is my only source of strength

> sometimes because most people fail me. To lose it would mean I

would

> then have nothing to get me through. "

I think I understand what you mean to a certain extent. I've done

that with depression, and more so with sadness. Depression is a dull

feeling, it keeps one from feeling the pain of all the things that

led up to it, like a soft grey blanket one can draw around oneself.

>

>

[Guest guest]

" To tell you the truth, depression is my only source of strength

sometimes because most people fail me. To lose it would mean I would

then have nothing to get me through. "

Interesting concept, depression as a strength, but I think I get what

you mean.

People say things like 'oh it can't be that bad' and then when you

tell them everything your going through, like all of it (which is

time and effort in itself) many people say things like. 'Oh but there

must be one good thing' or sometimes offer solutions that one has

already tried and have turned out not to work. It sometimes makes me

wonder if some lead either a blessed life or do things just not get

to them?

As for people denying others their feelings - now that really does

get to me - 'oh it can't be that bad' and 'oh you can't feel that

bad' - well excuse me, but how would they know, they are not me!

>

> I see no reason to counter depression since it is a natural

reaction

> to external stimuli. Would you tell a crying baby to shut up and be

> happy? It can't be done. The baby is crying for a reason...so let

it

> have it's feelings.

>

> The thing to do is to try to figure out why it is crying and do

what

> you can to solve the problem.

>

> The problem with people who are depressed is that no one cares to

> help them or no one CAN help them. If you try to then say " Don't be

> depressed " it's a double whammy. First you don't help them and then

> you deny them the right to have their feelings.

>

> To tell you the truth, depression is my only source of strength

> sometimes because most people fail me. To lose it would mean I

would

> then have nothing to get me through.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

[Guest guest]

Regarding depression- there are a couple of sites I keep meaning to read through...(So this post is also doubling as a note to myself to read the following recent papers...) ---------------------------------------- s- from his site... "I am particularly interested in the possibility that depressed affect may promote an analytical problem-solving style. To test this, I study the relationship between depressed affect and fluid intelligence; the characteristics of stressful life events that make them depressogenic; why there is heritability in depression; and whether depression helps one learn to cope with stressful life events. Because depression plays a causal role in suicidal behavior, I also explore the possible functions of suicidal behavior and the relationship between depressed affect and suicide attempts." http://www.vipbg.vcu.edu/~vipbg/dr/PANDREWS.shtml 's site: http://biology.unm.edu/biology/pwatson/public_html/pjw_cv.htm http://biology.unm.edu/biology/pwatson/public_html/_s2002.pdf http://biology.unm.edu/Biology/pwatson/public_html/dp1.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ greebohere <julie.stevenson16@...> wrote: "To tell you the truth, depression is my only source of strength sometimes because most people fail me. To lose it would mean I would then have nothing to get me through."Interesting concept, depression as a strength, but I think I get what you mean.People say things like 'oh it can't be that bad' and then when you tell them everything your going through, like all of it (which is time and effort in itself) many people say things like. 'Oh but there must be one good thing' or sometimes offer solutions that one has already tried and have turned out not to work. It sometimes makes me wonder

if some lead either a blessed life or do things just not get to them?As for people denying others their feelings - now that really does get to me - 'oh it can't be that bad' and 'oh you can't feel that bad' - well excuse me, but how would they know, they are not me!>> I see no reason to counter depression since it is a natural reaction > to external stimuli. Would you tell a crying baby to shut up and be > happy? It can't be done. The baby is crying for a reason...so let it > have it's feelings.> > The thing to do is to try to figure out why it is crying and do what > you can to solve the problem. > > The problem with people who are depressed is that no one cares to > help them

or no one CAN help them. If you try to then say "Don't be > depressed" it's a double whammy. First you don't help them and then > you deny them the right to have their feelings.> > To tell you the truth, depression is my only source of strength > sometimes because most people fail me. To lose it would mean I would > then have nothing to get me through.> > Tom> AdministratorHephaestus

Clubfoothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestushttp://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hephaestus.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi

Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Small Business.

[Guest guest]

I think this is true for other people. For me, my problem is that I

know EXACTLY what is wrong and cannot see a viable way to fix the

problems without help, and no one is willing to help.

And I cannot say months, years, or decades after the experience

that " life's moved on " because it hasn't. The problem are still there

or else they have grown worse.

Tom

Administrator

Often thrown in there, too, is not understanding what is really

bothering us. We fool ourselves or we don't see things that are wrong

and they go into our subconsious and fester.

[Guest guest]

" People say things like 'oh it can't be that bad' and then when you

tell them everything your going through, like all of it (which is

time and effort in itself) many people say things like. 'Oh but there

must be one good thing' or sometimes offer solutions that one has

already tried and have turned out not to work. It sometimes makes me

wonder if some lead either a blessed life or do things just not get

to them? "

I think when they say things like that it is because they are not

really listening. Sometimes I wonder if they deliberately say things

like that to goad me. It's very disrespectful to say the least and

not at all sympathetic.

" As for people denying others their feelings - now that really does

get to me - 'oh it can't be that bad' and 'oh you can't feel that

bad' - well excuse me, but how would they know, they are not me! "

Sometimes they legitimately don't believe that what you are telling

them is true because it is beyond them that the things you've told

them can be true. Or else they just don't want BELIEVE the things

you've told them could be true, because if those things can happen

to you, it can happen to them too.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Most of the memories I have from childhood are either bad or embarrassing. Few of the good ones survive. It doesn't really matter much to me that I can't remember much from say before high school. Those weren't particularly good years anyway.

[Guest guest]

Why will no one help?

>

> Often thrown in there, too, is not understanding what is really

> bothering us. We fool ourselves or we don't see things that are

wrong

> and they go into our subconsious and fester.

>