Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

[Guest guest]

Oh Carolyn, I don't even know what to say. I'm crying from what you

have to go through. When I was 15 weeks pregnant we where told that

's little sister was a " Molar " baby. Which means that she had no

chance of survival outside the womb. We were told that I was dialated

and about to lose her. Then we where told that my life was at great

risk and suggested abortion. We don't believe in abortion but decided

I needed to stick around to raise . I don't know if I will ever

get over it. The one thing that gets me through is that I truely

believe that God will forgive a woman who chooses abortion so I must

believe that he forgives me too. I wish I could help you Carolyn but

perhaps you knowing that I can truely sympathize might help.

Sincerely, Jodi

[Guest guest]

Hi Carolyn, I can't believe that doctor would want to talk to you about "quality of life" Maybe Marty's life isn't the same as others but you say in your post he is well cared for, clean, happy, with those he loves, and who love him" What more could you want for anyone? I think sometimes there does come a time when it is time to let go - When my sister was 17 she was in a terrible car accident (with the rest of us). Unfortunately as she was thrown from the car (many years before seat belts were ever used) she hit her head on the door frame. She was in a coma with no brain function hardly and our family asked for her to not be revived and kept alive on machines. She would have been tied to them forever, not able to communicate, understand etc. That is not quality of life and we had to let go so she could be in Heaven with our Dad (he died immediately in the car accident), whole and pain free.

From your posts, it sounds like Marty has quality of life, with a wonderful mom who takes good care of him, plus all his other family members who love him and he is able to love them back. In some ways there are people who suffer much more than he does but in ways that are more "acceptable" in today's society.

Keep up the good work, Carolyn! You are an amazing woman! I read your book, I know what I'm talking about!!

Have a great day!

Estevan, SK

Canada

-- Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Hello everybody,

I want to open another can of worms here this morning on a subject that is fresh on my mind.

Most of you have no doubt heard of the concept of; "quality of life." This is when a person is so ill or disabled that they decide, or their loved ones decide, their lives have reached a point where it is no longer worth living, and so something needs to be done.

I was confronted with this issue this morning!

We took my disabled son, Marty, to the ER because he woke up with a fever this morning, and when that happens I know he has an infection that needs to be treated immediately. There is some redness around the stoma of his food tube, and we have to always been on guard in case he has pneumonia from aspiration. I have learned through much experience that it is better to get on these things right away instead of letting it get worse and facing dire consequences like days in the hospital, etc.

I noticed they were a little rude from the get go today, don't know why other than it riled me up bad enough to start this discussion.

The triage nurse wanted to know what his temp had been, I said, 99.9, she said that was not high enough to constitute an infection. Hmmm. Yet Marty has had that high a fever before and had full blown pneumonia, once his lung collapsed and he needed lung surgery and he didn't even have a fever that time.

I explained to her he aspirates, then she said, "How can he aspirate if he isn't given anything to eat by mouth?" I told her it is because he does not swallow his secretions as well as we do, and he chokes sometimes, sucking bacteria into his lungs, and also he has seizures. She asked, "Has he had a seizure lately," and I said probably.

She tried her best to make me feel I should not have brought him there in the first place, but I long ago have conquered the feeling of not feeling welcome there, phooey on that. We have every right to be there whenever we need to, and besides that Marty has great insurance that pays every cent of his care.

Sooo fast forward to the doctor, and I couldn't believe it, he was looking at Marty's chart and he frowned said, "Have you ever considered quality of life?" I stared at him dumbly, and said, "Well sure I have considered it, but I don't want to discuss it now, we came for you to treat the infection."

And he got kind of like a cop would get if you have just been pulled over for speeding, "But you neeeeeed to talk about it now, your son comes in here for antibiotics several times a year," da, da, da. We just stared at one another, and I asked, "Well what do you want me to do then, just let him die at home from an infection that can easily be treated?"

Man, he made me mad! I have been confronted this way a few times in hospitals before but when Marty had been in ICU hanging on by a thread. I told the guy that I had been fighting for my son's life since he was a baby, could have sent him to the institution when he was 3 years old, but instead I've kept him at home, and let him grow up with his family, and he has been nothing but a blessing to all of us.

I thought about what he'd said while Marty was getting his lung ex-rays, and they also had to ex-ray his hand because it was all bruised up from it hitting the door jamb going into the bathroom the other day. He is so sweet and attentive, and the people who there pretty much all know him by now, and they just love him.

As I sat there, I considered him going on to be with Jesus one of these days, to be all well smiling and talking, and no more suffering, with his dad, and his grandpa, and uncles. Long ago I made peace about this, and I know when it is time for him to go the Lord will tell me it is time, otherwise it is my job to go on fighting for his life so he can be a blessing a testimony to all who meet him!

There are no doubt going to be a lot of different opinions on this, but consider this, there are people hanging on by a thread in comas, and Marty has been there before too, but he pulled through it and woke up. He has been through some really tough stuff the Lord has brought him through, is a walking miracle of God actually.

But all others see his "quality of life," maybe it isn't so great, but WHOSE IS I wonder!!Everywhere we look we see suffering and heartache, people hanging on by a thread, he certainly isn't the only one. At least he is well cared for, clean, happy, with those he loves, and who love him, not all have these blessings, and yet they aren't euthanized.

Well hope this made some sense, now I would like to hear from the rest of you. It is o.k. if some don't agree with me, I can take it. I took this doctor today, but he sure did irritate me pressuring me at a time like that! Aaaaaa! I wonder what he would do if his son got hit by a car and was in a coma.

And here is a funny note, had to leave us there because he had an appointment with his cardiologist this morning, it has been almost 2 years since his heart attack he had right here at home and was rushed to the hospital by ambulance in the nick of time. The doctor today went over how close it was, how he had almost lost him on the table before he ever got the two stents in because they were in a very difficult place. Now he has to go in on Fri. and he is going to put a catheter in to see how they are doing.

And my mom, I take her in on Thur. to finally get her procedure done, the lump taken off her body where she sits, and she is 89 years old. How is her quality of life, she lives on Oxycodone and can barely get around!

My view is: LIFE IS LIFE! If you are alive then you are a blessing to yourself, and to others!! Hang onto life, fight for life, and when the fight is over you will surely know it is time to let go of it, and go on to be with Jesus. Otherwise don't push it, but treat each day as precious, and the treasure it is, the gift God has given us all.

I mean; Why keep ANY OF US alive if that is the way you look at it, some people deserve to live, others do not.....

Well just gave Marty his first pill, Clindamycin, it should kill the cellulitis germs and any in his lungs if they are there, but they looked o.k. today, other than past scar tissue.

The fight goes on here anyway, praise God!

Carolyn

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,

I totally agree with you. Life is Life.

I remember when my husbands younger sister was born the doctor wanted to put her in a institution because she had downs. My in-laws refused she is now 41 years old and is a delight. Her favorite thing is the casino.

Janet

Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Hello everybody,

I want to open another can of worms here this morning on a subject that is fresh on my mind.

Most of you have no doubt heard of the concept of; "quality of life." This is when a person is so ill or disabled that they decide, or their loved ones decide, their lives have reached a point where it is no longer worth living, and so something needs to be done.

I was confronted with this issue this morning!

We took my disabled son, Marty, to the ER because he woke up with a fever this morning, and when that happens I know he has an infection that needs to be treated immediately. There is some redness around the stoma of his food tube, and we have to always been on guard in case he has pneumonia from aspiration. I have learned through much experience that it is better to get on these things right away instead of letting it get worse and facing dire consequences like days in the hospital, etc.

I noticed they were a little rude from the get go today, don't know why other than it riled me up bad enough to start this discussion.

The triage nurse wanted to know what his temp had been, I said, 99.9, she said that was not high enough to constitute an infection. Hmmm. Yet Marty has had that high a fever before and had full blown pneumonia, once his lung collapsed and he needed lung surgery and he didn't even have a fever that time.

I explained to her he aspirates, then she said, "How can he aspirate if he isn't given anything to eat by mouth?" I told her it is because he does not swallow his secretions as well as we do, and he chokes sometimes, sucking bacteria into his lungs, and also he has seizures. She asked, "Has he had a seizure lately," and I said probably.

She tried her best to make me feel I should not have brought him there in the first place, but I long ago have conquered the feeling of not feeling welcome there, phooey on that. We have every right to be there whenever we need to, and besides that Marty has great insurance that pays every cent of his care.

Sooo fast forward to the doctor, and I couldn't believe it, he was looking at Marty's chart and he frowned said, "Have you ever considered quality of life?" I stared at him dumbly, and said, "Well sure I have considered it, but I don't want to discuss it now, we came for you to treat the infection."

And he got kind of like a cop would get if you have just been pulled over for speeding, "But you neeeeeed to talk about it now, your son comes in here for antibiotics several times a year," da, da, da. We just stared at one another, and I asked, "Well what do you want me to do then, just let him die at home from an infection that can easily be treated?"

Man, he made me mad! I have been confronted this way a few times in hospitals before but when Marty had been in ICU hanging on by a thread. I told the guy that I had been fighting for my son's life since he was a baby, could have sent him to the institution when he was 3 years old, but instead I've kept him at home, and let him grow up with his family, and he has been nothing but a blessing to all of us.

I thought about what he'd said while Marty was getting his lung ex-rays, and they also had to ex-ray his hand because it was all bruised up from it hitting the door jamb going into the bathroom the other day. He is so sweet and attentive, and the people who there pretty much all know him by now, and they just love him.

As I sat there, I considered him going on to be with Jesus one of these days, to be all well smiling and talking, and no more suffering, with his dad, and his grandpa, and uncles. Long ago I made peace about this, and I know when it is time for him to go the Lord will tell me it is time, otherwise it is my job to go on fighting for his life so he can be a blessing a testimony to all who meet him!

There are no doubt going to be a lot of different opinions on this, but consider this, there are people hanging on by a thread in comas, and Marty has been there before too, but he pulled through it and woke up. He has been through some really tough stuff the Lord has brought him through, is a walking miracle of God actually.

But all others see his "quality of life," maybe it isn't so great, but WHOSE IS I wonder!!Everywhere we look we see suffering and heartache, people hanging on by a thread, he certainly isn't the only one. At least he is well cared for, clean, happy, with those he loves, and who love him, not all have these blessings, and yet they aren't euthanized.

Well hope this made some sense, now I would like to hear from the rest of you. It is o.k. if some don't agree with me, I can take it. I took this doctor today, but he sure did irritate me pressuring me at a time like that! Aaaaaa! I wonder what he would do if his son got hit by a car and was in a coma.

And here is a funny note, had to leave us there because he had an appointment with his cardiologist this morning, it has been almost 2 years since his heart attack he had right here at home and was rushed to the hospital by ambulance in the nick of time. The doctor today went over how close it was, how he had almost lost him on the table before he ever got the two stents in because they were in a very difficult place. Now he has to go in on Fri. and he is going to put a catheter in to see how they are doing.

And my mom, I take her in on Thur. to finally get her procedure done, the lump taken off her body where she sits, and she is 89 years old. How is her quality of life, she lives on Oxycodone and can barely get around!

My view is: LIFE IS LIFE! If you are alive then you are a blessing to yourself, and to others!! Hang onto life, fight for life, and when the fight is over you will surely know it is time to let go of it, and go on to be with Jesus. Otherwise don't push it, but treat each day as precious, and the treasure it is, the gift God has given us all.

I mean; Why keep ANY OF US alive if that is the way you look at it, some people deserve to live, others do not.....

Well just gave Marty his first pill, Clindamycin, it should kill the cellulitis germs and any in his lungs if they are there, but they looked o.k. today, other than past scar tissue.

The fight goes on here anyway, praise God!

Carolyn

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,I don't think I've read a post this moving in a long, long time. Your experience was atrocious. There's no excuse for that doctor who I think is a bit confused. Perhaps he took the Hypocrite Oath and not the Hippocratic Oath. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html What state do you live in? Could I have your permission to send this letter to a very small, private list that I own? We often discuss issues such as these and if they have any words of wisdom for you, I'll forward them on. It sounds like you have your eyes on the right place....the Lord gives the life and He takes the life and that's enough to know to get us through each and every day. Quality of life discussions don't begin with simple infections. Those kind of talks are life-support systems, etc. I take the doctors suggestion to be that you should essentially murder your son by neglecting to get him the care he should have. Can you imagine the repercussions of that, if you didn't take him in when you felt he needed antibiotics, etc.? The doctor would NEVER be accountable, but you certainly would. Bless you and yours.

SharonOn 9/4/07, Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

Hello everybody,

I want to open another can of worms here this morning on a subject that is fresh on my mind.

Most of you have no doubt heard of the concept of; " quality of life. " This is when a person is so ill or disabled that they decide, or their loved ones decide, their lives have reached a point where it is no longer worth living, and so something needs to be done.

[Guest guest]

Dear Carolyn,

It can't be that much fun to be a doctor, seeing so many people sicken worse and die under your care. He should be grateful to get a success with Marty!

I think what he's saying is: "I wouldn't give this love and care to anyone, and you make me feel insufficient when I see what you do."

That's the same space "Institutionalize your child." comes from. I'd treat it with a barely polite: "No thank you."

Keep up your good work with Marty and your family.

Love,

Francine

In a message dated 9/5/2007 2:06:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, janet.b@... writes:

Carolyn,

I totally agree with you. Life is Life.

I remember when my husbands younger sister was born the doctor wanted to put her in a institution because she had downs. My in-laws refused she is now 41 years old and is a delight. Her favorite thing is the casino.

Janet

Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Hello everybody,

I want to open another can of worms here this morning on a subject that is fresh on my mind.

Most of you have no doubt heard of the concept of; "quality of life." This is when a person is so ill or disabled that they decide, or their loved ones decide, their lives have reached a point where it is no longer worth living, and so something needs to be done.

I was confronted with this issue this morning!

We took my disabled son, Marty, to the ER because he woke up with a fever this morning, and when that happens I know he has an infection that needs to be treated immediately. There is some redness around the stoma of his food tube, and we have to always been on guard in case he has pneumonia from aspiration. I have learned through much experience that it is better to get on these things right away instead of letting it get worse and facing dire consequences like days in the hospital, etc.

I noticed they were a little rude from the get go today, don't know why other than it riled me up bad enough to start this discussion.

The triage nurse wanted to know what his temp had been, I said, 99.9, she said that was not high enough to constitute an infection. Hmmm. Yet Marty has had that high a fever before and had full blown pneumonia, once his lung collapsed and he needed lung surgery and he didn't even have a fever that time.

I explained to her he aspirates, then she said, "How can he aspirate if he isn't given anything to eat by mouth?" I told her it is because he does not swallow his secretions as well as we do, and he chokes sometimes, sucking bacteria into his lungs, and also he has seizures. She asked, "Has he had a seizure lately," and I said probably.

She tried her best to make me feel I should not have brought him there in the first place, but I long ago have conquered the feeling of not feeling welcome there, phooey on that. We have every right to be there whenever we need to, and besides that Marty has great insurance that pays every cent of his care.

Sooo fast forward to the doctor, and I couldn't believe it, he was looking at Marty's chart and he frowned said, "Have you ever considered quality of life?" I stared at him dumbly, and said, "Well sure I have considered it, but I don't want to discuss it now, we came for you to treat the infection."

And he got kind of like a cop would get if you have just been pulled over for speeding, "But you neeeeeed to talk about it now, your son comes in here for antibiotics several times a year," da, da, da. We just stared at one another, and I asked, "Well what do you want me to do then, just let him die at home from an infection that can easily be treated?"

Man, he made me mad! I have been confronted this way a few times in hospitals before but when Marty had been in ICU hanging on by a thread. I told the guy that I had been fighting for my son's life since he was a baby, could have sent him to the institution when he was 3 years old, but instead I've kept him at home, and let him grow up with his family, and he has been nothing but a blessing to all of us.

I thought about what he'd said while Marty was getting his lung ex-rays, and they also had to ex-ray his hand because it was all bruised up from it hitting the door jamb going into the bathroom the other day. He is so sweet and attentive, and the people who there pretty much all know him by now, and they just love him.

As I sat there, I considered him going on to be with Jesus one of these days, to be all well smiling and talking, and no more suffering, with his dad, and his grandpa, and uncles. Long ago I made peace about this, and I know when it is time for him to go the Lord will tell me it is time, otherwise it is my job to go on fighting for his life so he can be a blessing a testimony to all who meet him!

There are no doubt going to be a lot of different opinions on this, but consider this, there are people hanging on by a thread in comas, and Marty has been there before too, but he pulled through it and woke up. He has been through some really tough stuff the Lord has brought him through, is a walking miracle of God actually.

But all others see his "quality of life," maybe it isn't so great, but WHOSE IS I wonder!!Everywhere we look we see suffering and heartache, people hanging on by a thread, he certainly isn't the only one. At least he is well cared for, clean, happy, with those he loves, and who love him, not all have these blessings, and yet they aren't euthanized.

Well hope this made some sense, now I would like to hear from the rest of you. It is o.k. if some don't agree with me, I can take it. I took this doctor today, but he sure did irritate me pressuring me at a time like that! Aaaaaa! I wonder what he would do if his son got hit by a car and was in a coma.

And here is a funny note, had to leave us there because he had an appointment with his cardiologist this morning, it has been almost 2 years since his heart attack he had right here at home and was rushed to the hospital by ambulance in the nick of time. The doctor today went over how close it was, how he had almost lost him on the table before he ever got the two stents in because they were in a very difficult place. Now he has to go in on Fri. and he is going to put a catheter in to see how they are doing.

And my mom, I take her in on Thur. to finally get her procedure done, the lump taken off her body where she sits, and she is 89 years old. How is her quality of life, she lives on Oxycodone and can barely get around!

My view is: LIFE IS LIFE! If you are alive then you are a blessing to yourself, and to others!! Hang onto life, fight for life, and when the fight is over you will surely know it is time to let go of it, and go on to be with Jesus. Otherwise don't push it, but treat each day as precious, and the treasure it is, the gift God has given us all.

I mean; Why keep ANY OF US alive if that is the way you look at it, some people deserve to live, others do not.....

Well just gave Marty his first pill, Clindamycin, it should kill the cellulitis germs and any in his lungs if they are there, but they looked o.k. today, other than past scar tissue.

The fight goes on here anyway, praise God!

Carolyn

Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Bless you and your family.

Love,

Francine

In a message dated 9/5/2007 2:05:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wmgodfrey@... writes:

Hi Carolyn, I can't believe that doctor would want to talk to you about "quality of life" Maybe Marty's life isn't the same as others but you say in your post he is well cared for, clean, happy, with those he loves, and who love him" What more could you want for anyone? I think sometimes there does come a time when it is time to let go - When my sister was 17 she was in a terrible car accident (with the rest of us). Unfortunately as she was thrown from the car (many years before seat belts were ever used) she hit her head on the door frame. She was in a coma with no brain function hardly and our family asked for her to not be revived and kept alive on machines. She would have been tied to them forever, not able to communicate, understand etc. That is not quality of life and we had to let go so she could be in Heaven with our Dad (he died immediately in the car accident), whole and pain free.

From your posts, it sounds like Marty has quality of life, with a wonderful mom who takes good care of him, plus all his other family members who love him and he is able to love them back. In some ways there are people who suffer much more than he does but in ways that are more "acceptable" in today's society.

Keep up the good work, Carolyn! You are an amazing woman! I read your book, I know what I'm talking about!!

Have a great day!

Estevan, SK

Canada

-- Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Hello everybody,

I want to open another can of worms here this morning on a subject that is fresh on my mind.

Most of you have no doubt heard of the concept of; "quality of life." This is when a person is so ill or disabled that they decide, or their loved ones decide, their lives have reached a point where it is no longer worth living, and so something needs to be done.

I was confronted with this issue this morning!

We took my disabled son, Marty, to the ER because he woke up with a fever this morning, and when that happens I know he has an infection that needs to be treated immediately. There is some redness around the stoma of his food tube, and we have to always been on guard in case he has pneumonia from aspiration. I have learned through much experience that it is better to get on these things right away instead of letting it get worse and facing dire consequences like days in the hospital, etc.

I noticed they were a little rude from the get go today, don't know why other than it riled me up bad enough to start this discussion.

The triage nurse wanted to know what his temp had been, I said, 99.9, she said that was not high enough to constitute an infection. Hmmm. Yet Marty has had that high a fever before and had full blown pneumonia, once his lung collapsed and he needed lung surgery and he didn't even have a fever that time.

I explained to her he aspirates, then she said, "How can he aspirate if he isn't given anything to eat by mouth?" I told her it is because he does not swallow his secretions as well as we do, and he chokes sometimes, sucking bacteria into his lungs, and also he has seizures. She asked, "Has he had a seizure lately," and I said probably.

She tried her best to make me feel I should not have brought him there in the first place, but I long ago have conquered the feeling of not feeling welcome there, phooey on that. We have every right to be there whenever we need to, and besides that Marty has great insurance that pays every cent of his care.

Sooo fast forward to the doctor, and I couldn't believe it, he was looking at Marty's chart and he frowned said, "Have you ever considered quality of life?" I stared at him dumbly, and said, "Well sure I have considered it, but I don't want to discuss it now, we came for you to treat the infection."

And he got kind of like a cop would get if you have just been pulled over for speeding, "But you neeeeeed to talk about it now, your son comes in here for antibiotics several times a year," da, da, da. We just stared at one another, and I asked, "Well what do you want me to do then, just let him die at home from an infection that can easily be treated?"

Man, he made me mad! I have been confronted this way a few times in hospitals before but when Marty had been in ICU hanging on by a thread. I told the guy that I had been fighting for my son's life since he was a baby, could have sent him to the institution when he was 3 years old, but instead I've kept him at home, and let him grow up with his family, and he has been nothing but a blessing to all of us.

I thought about what he'd said while Marty was getting his lung ex-rays, and they also had to ex-ray his hand because it was all bruised up from it hitting the door jamb going into the bathroom the other day. He is so sweet and attentive, and the people who there pretty much all know him by now, and they just love him.

As I sat there, I considered him going on to be with Jesus one of these days, to be all well smiling and talking, and no more suffering, with his dad, and his grandpa, and uncles. Long ago I made peace about this, and I know when it is time for him to go the Lord will tell me it is time, otherwise it is my job to go on fighting for his life so he can be a blessing a testimony to all who meet him!

There are no doubt going to be a lot of different opinions on this, but consider this, there are people hanging on by a thread in comas, and Marty has been there before too, but he pulled through it and woke up. He has been through some really tough stuff the Lord has brought him through, is a walking miracle of God actually.

But all others see his "quality of life," maybe it isn't so great, but WHOSE IS I wonder!!Everywhere we look we see suffering and heartache, people hanging on by a thread, he certainly isn't the only one. At least he is well cared for, clean, happy, with those he loves, and who love him, not all have these blessings, and yet they aren't euthanized.

Well hope this made some sense, now I would like to hear from the rest of you. It is o.k. if some don't agree with me, I can take it. I took this doctor today, but he sure did irritate me pressuring me at a time like that! Aaaaaa! I wonder what he would do if his son got hit by a car and was in a coma.

And here is a funny note, had to leave us there because he had an appointment with his cardiologist this morning, it has been almost 2 years since his heart attack he had right here at home and was rushed to the hospital by ambulance in the nick of time. The doctor today went over how close it was, how he had almost lost him on the table before he ever got the two stents in because they were in a very difficult place. Now he has to go in on Fri. and he is going to put a catheter in to see how they are doing.

And my mom, I take her in on Thur. to finally get her procedure done, the lump taken off her body where she sits, and she is 89 years old. How is her quality of life, she lives on Oxycodone and can barely get around!

My view is: LIFE IS LIFE! If you are alive then you are a blessing to yourself, and to others!! Hang onto life, fight for life, and when the fight is over you will surely know it is time to let go of it, and go on to be with Jesus. Otherwise don't push it, but treat each day as precious, and the treasure it is, the gift God has given us all.

I mean; Why keep ANY OF US alive if that is the way you look at it, some people deserve to live, others do not.....

Well just gave Marty his first pill, Clindamycin, it should kill the cellulitis germs and any in his lungs if they are there, but they looked o.k. today, other than past scar tissue.

The fight goes on here anyway, praise God!

Carolyn

Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Hello Sharon,

Yes you do have my permission to share my letter, I would love to get some opinions about this situation from as many as possible, people in the medical field, rights for the disabled, etc.

And you are right, it would be a felony abuse charge here in Oregon if I failed to take care of my son. We get state funding to care for him, if I did not care for him he would go someplace else to be cared for. If to a group home, or a nursing home, they would have to treat his infections, etc. as they came up, but probably not be nearly as alert as I am, and they would go too far.

Have you heard of the case in New Orleans where some nursing home attendants left several of their patients to die, during the hurricane Katrina, who are now being charged with manslaughter, or murder, or something. I haven't followed the case, but even they were supposed to protect these helpless people.

I would like to hear what lawyers would have to say also, about what that doctor said to me yesterday.

Carolyn

Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Carolyn,I don't think I've read a post this moving in a long, long time. Your experience was atrocious. There's no excuse for that doctor who I think is a bit confused. Perhaps he took the Hypocrite Oath and not the Hippocratic Oath. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html What state do you live in? Could I have your permission to send this letter to a very small, private list that I own? We often discuss issues such as these and if they have any words of wisdom for you, I'll forward them on. It sounds like you have your eyes on the right place....the Lord gives the life and He takes the life and that's enough to know to get us through each and every day. Quality of life discussions don't begin with simple infections. Those kind of talks are life-support systems, etc. I take the doctors suggestion to be that you should essentially murder your son by neglecting to get him the care he should have. Can you imagine the repercussions of that, if you didn't take him in when you felt he needed antibiotics, etc.? The doctor would NEVER be accountable, but you certainly would. Bless you and yours. Sharon

On 9/4/07, Carolyn <charper777comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

Hello everybody,

I want to open another can of worms here this morning on a subject that is fresh on my mind.

Most of you have no doubt heard of the concept of; "quality of life." This is when a person is so ill or disabled that they decide, or their loved ones decide, their lives have reached a point where it is no longer worth living, and so something needs to be done.

[Guest guest]

Hi Carolyn, How are you today? Just to let you know that you are in

my thoughts and prayers. I think you are such a wonderful Mom and I'm

so sorry that you even have to consider this decision.

I support you all the way for giving him a life full of love.

Bless you. Jodi

[Guest guest]

Have you thought about reporting the Dr. to the authorities at the

hospital? I think most hospitals have a procedure for this.

Judy

[Guest guest]

This is how I feel too Janet. I think God knew what He was doing when he made all our children, and it is our job to see that they have a good life that interacts with others so that they can bless others.

I ordered the documentary, "Where is Molly?" on-line. It was about a little baby girl and her family, primarily about her older brother who loved her, and one day she just went away, he knew not where. His parents would not tell him where she went, it was here in Oregon and they had sent her to Fairview Institution. The father was not in favor of it, but the mother was, evidentially she did not want the stigma of having an imperfect child.

Well once the mother died, and the son grew up he learned where his sister was from another family member, and he went in search for her, and he found her living in a group home. They had shut the institution down and put people into smaller group homes by then. It was just so beautiful how he finally met his sister after so long at time, over 40 years, and he formed a close loving relationship with her after that.

There were lots of pictures of the original Fairview institution, the same place they wanted me to send my son too years ago when he was only three years old, because he was different. Of course the footage they found had the children very clean sitting in long rows at the dinner table, or all in their cribs in a row. It did not show the bad days, restraints, drugs, children suffering in loneliness without their moms. etc., no pictures of that.

It made me thankful I had never sent my son Marty there, no way. I told his sister the other day she should be glad because now she doesn't ever have to go looking for her brother, wondering where he had gone. The documentary said there were many thousands of people who "disappeared" like that, over 300,000 people in the years they had institutions, and some states still do.

I think loves says everything. God is love the Bible says.

Carolyn

Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Hello everybody,

I want to open another can of worms here this morning on a subject that is fresh on my mind.

Most of you have no doubt heard of the concept of; "quality of life." This is when a person is so ill or disabled that they decide, or their loved ones decide, their lives have reached a point where it is no longer worth living, and so something needs to be done.

I was confronted with this issue this morning!

We took my disabled son, Marty, to the ER because he woke up with a fever this morning, and when that happens I know he has an infection that needs to be treated immediately. There is some redness around the stoma of his food tube, and we have to always been on guard in case he has pneumonia from aspiration. I have learned through much experience that it is better to get on these things right away instead of letting it get worse and facing dire consequences like days in the hospital, etc.

I noticed they were a little rude from the get go today, don't know why other than it riled me up bad enough to start this discussion.

The triage nurse wanted to know what his temp had been, I said, 99.9, she said that was not high enough to constitute an infection. Hmmm. Yet Marty has had that high a fever before and had full blown pneumonia, once his lung collapsed and he needed lung surgery and he didn't even have a fever that time.

I explained to her he aspirates, then she said, "How can he aspirate if he isn't given anything to eat by mouth?" I told her it is because he does not swallow his secretions as well as we do, and he chokes sometimes, sucking bacteria into his lungs, and also he has seizures. She asked, "Has he had a seizure lately," and I said probably.

She tried her best to make me feel I should not have brought him there in the first place, but I long ago have conquered the feeling of not feeling welcome there, phooey on that. We have every right to be there whenever we need to, and besides that Marty has great insurance that pays every cent of his care.

Sooo fast forward to the doctor, and I couldn't believe it, he was looking at Marty's chart and he frowned said, "Have you ever considered quality of life?" I stared at him dumbly, and said, "Well sure I have considered it, but I don't want to discuss it now, we came for you to treat the infection."

And he got kind of like a cop would get if you have just been pulled over for speeding, "But you neeeeeed to talk about it now, your son comes in here for antibiotics several times a year," da, da, da. We just stared at one another, and I asked, "Well what do you want me to do then, just let him die at home from an infection that can easily be treated?"

Man, he made me mad! I have been confronted this way a few times in hospitals before but when Marty had been in ICU hanging on by a thread. I told the guy that I had been fighting for my son's life since he was a baby, could have sent him to the institution when he was 3 years old, but instead I've kept him at home, and let him grow up with his family, and he has been nothing but a blessing to all of us.

I thought about what he'd said while Marty was getting his lung ex-rays, and they also had to ex-ray his hand because it was all bruised up from it hitting the door jamb going into the bathroom the other day. He is so sweet and attentive, and the people who there pretty much all know him by now, and they just love him.

As I sat there, I considered him going on to be with Jesus one of these days, to be all well smiling and talking, and no more suffering, with his dad, and his grandpa, and uncles. Long ago I made peace about this, and I know when it is time for him to go the Lord will tell me it is time, otherwise it is my job to go on fighting for his life so he can be a blessing a testimony to all who meet him!

There are no doubt going to be a lot of different opinions on this, but consider this, there are people hanging on by a thread in comas, and Marty has been there before too, but he pulled through it and woke up. He has been through some really tough stuff the Lord has brought him through, is a walking miracle of God actually.

But all others see his "quality of life," maybe it isn't so great, but WHOSE IS I wonder!!Everywhere we look we see suffering and heartache, people hanging on by a thread, he certainly isn't the only one. At least he is well cared for, clean, happy, with those he loves, and who love him, not all have these blessings, and yet they aren't euthanized.

Well hope this made some sense, now I would like to hear from the rest of you. It is o.k. if some don't agree with me, I can take it. I took this doctor today, but he sure did irritate me pressuring me at a time like that! Aaaaaa! I wonder what he would do if his son got hit by a car and was in a coma.

And here is a funny note, had to leave us there because he had an appointment with his cardiologist this morning, it has been almost 2 years since his heart attack he had right here at home and was rushed to the hospital by ambulance in the nick of time. The doctor today went over how close it was, how he had almost lost him on the table before he ever got the two stents in because they were in a very difficult place. Now he has to go in on Fri. and he is going to put a catheter in to see how they are doing.

And my mom, I take her in on Thur. to finally get her procedure done, the lump taken off her body where she sits, and she is 89 years old. How is her quality of life, she lives on Oxycodone and can barely get around!

My view is: LIFE IS LIFE! If you are alive then you are a blessing to yourself, and to others!! Hang onto life, fight for life, and when the fight is over you will surely know it is time to let go of it, and go on to be with Jesus. Otherwise don't push it, but treat each day as precious, and the treasure it is, the gift God has given us all.

I mean; Why keep ANY OF US alive if that is the way you look at it, some people deserve to live, others do not.....

Well just gave Marty his first pill, Clindamycin, it should kill the cellulitis germs and any in his lungs if they are there, but they looked o.k. today, other than past scar tissue.

The fight goes on here anyway, praise God!

Carolyn

[Guest guest]

I feel that Dr. was ignorant for suggesting that.I can understand mentioning that if he was say on life support and if they took him off there wouldn't be ability to live with out it i can understand like my sisters mom in law she was dying and watching the machine breathe for her knowing she wouldn't be able to breathe ( there were other things but i have no idea what they were) .she was suffering and there wasn't hope.I am not sure what all is going on with your son .But it doesn't sound like he needs machines like that to live.I would think it would be more inhumane to let him die because he gets infections a lot. You did the right thing,care for your son ,cuz in this messed up world we live in ,no one else will.Vickie Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Carolyn,I don't think I've read a post this moving in a long, long time. Your experience was atrocious. There's no excuse for that doctor who I think is a bit confused. Perhaps he took the Hypocrite Oath and not the Hippocratic Oath. http://www.pbs. org/wgbh/ nova/doctors/ oath_modern. html What state do you live in? Could I have your permission to send this letter to a very small, private list that I own? We often discuss issues such as these and if they have any words of wisdom for you, I'll forward them on. It sounds like you have your eyes on the right place....the Lord gives the life and He takes the life and that's enough to know to get us through each and every day. Quality of life discussions don't begin with simple infections. Those kind of talks are life-support systems, etc. I take the doctors suggestion to be that you should essentially murder your son by neglecting to get him the care he should have. Can you imagine the repercussions of that, if you didn't take him in when you felt he needed antibiotics, etc.? The doctor would NEVER be accountable, but you certainly would. Bless you and yours. Sharon

On 9/4/07, Carolyn <charper777comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

Hello everybody,

I want to open another can of worms here this morning on a subject that is fresh on my mind.

Most of you have no doubt heard of the concept of; "quality of life." This is when a person is so ill or disabled that they decide, or their loved ones decide, their lives have reached a point where it is no longer worth living, and so something needs to be done.

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Games.

[Guest guest]

Thankyou Priscilla, I appreciate your input. You no doubt have seem a lot of death and dying in your career as a nurse. But can't you also speak of the fight for life? The cases that looked utterly hopeless, and yet the patient overcame and pulled through and went on to be a blessing to others.

Yes everybody knows we all die, but does there have to be such a heavy emphasis on dying, can't there be just as strong a emphasis on living? With my son and I it has been a battle all the way, a battle for life, a very real war in every way.

It is because I have looked at his life as valuable, and after these 43 years of fighting for him, I now have full assurance that his life has been valuable in every way. There is not one thing I regret about the battle for his life. Yes it was hard, but isn't life hard for all of us? I think our life story gives hope and encouragement to others in the fight, many with lesser battles.

The point to me is we must fight for life, period, by whatever means available to us. Because there is an enemy to life, yes some die slow, some die fast, but as far as I am concerned if there is any breath at all, then the person is still alive, and can still bless others, and when they are gone, their memories can, but it is not the same.

Right now my own mom is in the hospital. She is 89 years old and still fighting to live, and thank God the doctors and nurses are helping her. I took her yesterday morning, and they were supposed to do the procedure at about noon, but did not get to it until 4:00. I went over at 5:00, and she was still pretty groggy, and was thinking she was going home.

Well right as I sat there, trying to talk her out of going home, since she was so groggy yet, she began to hemorrhage! She had had surgery on her rectum to remove a growth. It was a bit of a panic there for awhile as her blood pressure dropped. I prayed, and it stabilized, and they called her surgeon and he said to bring her back to the OR and he would see what was going on.

So she was sedated, and went back to surgery so he could sew more stitches, etc.

What is my point, oh do you think my mom should give up the fight just because she is 89 now, and has lived a good life? Well evidentially she doesn't think she is ready to go, I or my brother don't, her doctor doesn't, thank God, and I do not believe God wants to take her yet either.

So one we go in the battle for life, against death! And here is another point, as Christians we believe that once the fight is actually really over, and it is time to go, we do not see death, we go immediately to eternal life with Jesus Christ.

So there is not death for us at all, only on this earth, in these bodies. But meanwhile we fight for life so that we can bless others.

Carolyn

Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

I was in the medical field as an ICU nurse for many years. The terms "quality of life" has a huge responsible question buried in it. The question is this: Is THE PATIENT'S LIFE enjoyable enough FOR THE PATIENT to outweigh whatever pain and suffering THE PATIENT is experiencing? This is the question all responsible people, be they the actual patient or the family of the patient, must ask themselves as time goes on. The fact is that people die, they die slowly or quickly, but they die. We have the means to keep the body alive for a very long time.... much longer than if artificial means were not available. We have taken over playing God in many cases. This question has no other meaning than this: If Marty could discuss this, what would he say about his own life, his own enjoyment and any pain and suffering he experiences?

Priscilla in Kansas

Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.Visit the Auto Green Center.

[Guest guest]

Wow Sharon, you are right! I had not even thought of this, assisted suicide is legal here in Oregon, although I voted against it. That was exactly the attitude that doctor had, aaaaaa! It was really eerie, kind of scared me to tell you the truth. You know I think maybe there are doctors who enjoy killing people, it kind of gets into their blood somehow, the power the can experience when they snuff out a life. That is what made me so MAD at the guy, thanks for sending this, I sent it on to my church group, many of them didn't know what they were talking about and were sticking up for the doctor!

I deleted your name, and the name of this group first, hope you don't mind, should have asked first.

Carolyn

Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

A lawyer would have NOTHING to say. You live in Oregon, a RIGHT TO DIE state, NOT a Right To Life state. There's your problem. Let's hope the rest of the country does go this route. We've already slaughtered 45 million babies through abortion, so I guess it wasn't a very long journey to doctors suggesting kids be murdered when they require simple antibiotics. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/SupremeCourt/story?id=1514546

In a stinging rebuke to the Bush administration, the Supreme Court sided with Oregon in upholding the nation's only physician-assisted suicide law.

Oregon voters have twice upheld a law that permits the terminally ill to take an overdose of drugs if two doctors agree with the diagnosis and conclude the patient is of sound mind. To date, more than 200 terminally ill patients in Oregon have used the law, and now millions may be affected by the Supreme Court's decision. Looks like Oregon's going to be increasing tremendously in population growth when all the special need mothers get wind of this, huh? Here's an easy out! (THAT IS SARCASM.)Have you considered moving??? Sharon

On 9/5/07, Carolyn <charper777comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

I would like to hear what lawyers would have to say also, about what that doctor said to me yesterday.

Carolyn

[Guest guest]

we use to always say go take a long walk off a short pier .but the go jump in a lake works well also.lol my moms personal favorite though was go pound sand up your ass lol boy my dad heard that a lot lol Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Have you thought about reporting the Dr. to the authorities at the hospital? I think most hospitals have a procedure for this.Judy

Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more.

[Guest guest]

Oh yes, I remember that one, Go take a loooooong walk off a short pier. I haven't heard the one about pounding sand up your ass, that is funny about your dad, I can just picture it. My uncle used to tell us kids when we were bored to go sit on our thumbs, kind of reminded me of it. I am not quite sure what he was getting at though...hmmm.

Carolyn

Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Have you thought about reporting the Dr. to the authorities at the hospital? I think most hospitals have a procedure for this.Judy

Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more.

[Guest guest]

maybe like the fonz did sit on it and rotate lol i guess it means stick something in it to keep all the crap from coming out .lol sorry my mom had a lot of things she would say but they say kids say the darndest things lol Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Have you thought about reporting the Dr. to the authorities at the hospital? I think most hospitals have a procedure for this.Judy

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[Guest guest]

Well shoot! Is that the only reason we're here? To enjoy ourselves?

And where is the possibility of healing in all this?

If you put Ambien and pvs/coma in search, some really interesting experiences come up.

Might Marty -- or anyone else -- have a really rich inner life going on?

Would God say: unplug 'em! Jesus wasn't even daunted by someone 4 days gone; in fact, He waited on purpose. Might His message be: There is no point of no return. Expect miracles!

Francine

In a message dated 9/7/2007 12:25:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, prisread@... writes:

I was in the medical field as an ICU nurse for many years. The terms "quality of life" has a huge responsible question buried in it. The question is this: Is THE PATIENT'S LIFE enjoyable enough FOR THE PATIENT to outweigh whatever pain and suffering THE PATIENT is experiencing? This is the question all responsible people, be they the actual patient or the family of the patient, must ask themselves as time goes on. The fact is that people die, they die slowly or quickly, but they die. We have the means to keep the body alive for a very long time.... much longer than if artificial means were not available. We have taken over playing God in many cases. This question has no other meaning than this: If Marty could discuss this, what would he say about his own life, his own enjoyment and any pain and suffering he experiences?

Priscilla in Kansas

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[Guest guest]

Well said Francine, I believe as you do, and believe in healing and miracles as Jesus told us to believe. We are to press ahead with our faith believing that He is at work in our lives, and do everything possible we can do to show that to all who see us. That is what I have done in the life of my son Marty. They wanted to lock him up when he was a baby so nobody would ever see him or know him, and I refused to let that happen to him, and so I did not. Instead I sought the Lord, and I found Him, and I asked Him what I should do, and He very clearly has taught me that my son was very valuable to Him, but that he was not going to be valuable to everybody. He taught me that there are many enemies to look out for, and I would have to come against them with my faith in Him, but He would be there for me and in me, and He would make a way when there seemed to be no way.

And here we still are fighting the good fight of faith, some 43 years later!! I would say we are a success, and others may as well see it too, because if they don't then they are pure idiots! ; 0 ))

I praise the Lord for my son, and all the years we have had together, and will continue to press in into all the battles ahead, until that day when He alone calls him home to live with Him forever and forever, with a new body, new mind, no more sickness, or dying anymore.

Carolyn

Re: Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Well shoot! Is that the only reason we're here? To enjoy ourselves?

And where is the possibility of healing in all this?

If you put Ambien and pvs/coma in search, some really interesting experiences come up.

Might Marty -- or anyone else -- have a really rich inner life going on?

Would God say: unplug 'em! Jesus wasn't even daunted by someone 4 days gone; in fact, He waited on purpose. Might His message be: There is no point of no return. Expect miracles!

Francine

In a message dated 9/7/2007 12:25:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, prisread writes:

I was in the medical field as an ICU nurse for many years. The terms "quality of life" has a huge responsible question buried in it. The question is this: Is THE PATIENT'S LIFE enjoyable enough FOR THE PATIENT to outweigh whatever pain and suffering THE PATIENT is experiencing? This is the question all responsible people, be they the actual patient or the family of the patient, must ask themselves as time goes on. The fact is that people die, they die slowly or quickly, but they die. We have the means to keep the body alive for a very long time.... much longer than if artificial means were not available. We have taken over playing God in many cases. This question has no other meaning than this: If Marty could discuss this, what would he say about his own life, his own enjoyment and any pain and suffering he experiences?

Priscilla in Kansas

Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.Visit the Auto Green Center.

See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

[Guest guest]

Actually, I have seen miracles on a daily basis. My point is that being an advocate for someone means taking your own opinions and stepping aside to focus on what THE PATIENT wants..... not what you want. It is very easy to make snap judgments based on one's own personal belief systems. I haven't walked in Marty's shoes. It is Marty's quality of life and no one else's that is in question. I think that God has given us brains to use. We have abilities to prolong life or to take it away depending on what the jury says. This is why removing someone from life support (or choosing to never put on the life support) is a decision that is made with much soul searching and prayer on the part of the medical group which the patient's family may never see. The family only sees the doctor/nurses asking the kind of questions that are uncomfortable to ask and uncomfortable to thoughtfully answer. As much as you may disagree, it is the legal

responsibility of the doctor to simply ask. Priscilla in Kansas

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[Guest guest]

My husband's nephew, Dennis Lee, was born in 1958. He seemed to be fairly normal for the first 2 years of his life. He was a mean little cuss. My BIL was career military and they moved off for several years; when they returned Dennis Lee was about 4-5 and just kinda sat around in a stupor. When I asked questions, I got some tale that I didn't understand. The next time I saw him he was 10 and some Dr had talked my SIL into putting him in a home. The 1st day he was there, he ran through the plate glass window and cut himself very badly. My SIL went to the hospital, got in a fight with a nurse, Dr and someone from the home. She took him home and shortly after that my BIL was shipped overseas and when they came home Dennis Lee was a grown man, confined to a wheelchair. His Mom did everything for him. He didn't talk, grunt and rarely responded to anything. I could usually get him to smile by talking to him and tell him he better look at me. Nothing more. He died

in his sleep when he was 45; I would love to read his medical records but I have more than a plate full. His Mom has gone steadily down-hill since he passed away. God must have had some purpose for him to be here so long and its not for us to ask what or why. We all have to trust him and do the best we can. God Bless You All, Doris M in OK Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote: Well said Francine, I believe as you do, and believe in

healing and miracles as Jesus told us to believe. We are to press ahead with our faith believing that He is at work in our lives, and do everything possible we can do to show that to all who see us. That is what I have done in the life of my son Marty. They wanted to lock him up when he was a baby so nobody would ever see him or know him, and I refused to let that happen to him, and so I did not. Instead I sought the Lord, and I found Him, and I asked Him what I should do, and He very clearly has taught me that my son was very valuable to Him, but that he was not going to be valuable to everybody. He taught me that there are many enemies to look out for, and I would have to come against them with my faith in Him, but He would be there for me and in me, and He would make a way when there seemed to be no way. And here we still are fighting the good fight of faith, some 43 years

later!! I would say we are a success, and others may as well see it too, because if they don't then they are pure idiots! ; 0 )) I praise the Lord for my son, and all the years we have had together, and will continue to press in into all the battles ahead, until that day when He alone calls him home to live with Him forever and forever, with a new body, new mind, no more sickness, or dying anymore. Carolyn Re: Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug? Well shoot! Is that the only reason we're here? To enjoy ourselves? And where is the possibility of healing in all this? If you put Ambien and pvs/coma in search, some really interesting experiences come up. Might Marty -- or anyone else -- have a really rich inner life going on? Would God say: unplug 'em! Jesus wasn't even daunted by someone 4 days gone; in fact, He waited on purpose. Might His message be: There is no point of no return.

Expect miracles! Francine In a message dated 9/7/2007 12:25:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, prisread writes: I was in the medical field as an ICU nurse for many years. The terms "quality of life" has a huge responsible question buried in it. The question is this: Is THE PATIENT'S LIFE enjoyable enough FOR THE PATIENT to outweigh whatever pain and suffering THE PATIENT is experiencing? This is the question all responsible people, be they the actual patient or the family of the patient, must ask themselves as time goes on. The fact is that people die, they die slowly or quickly, but they die. We have the means to keep the body alive for a very long time.... much longer than if artificial

means were not available. We have taken over playing God in many cases. This question has no other meaning than this: If Marty could discuss this, what would he say about his own life, his own enjoyment and any pain and suffering he experiences? Priscilla in Kansas Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.Visit the Auto Green Center. See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

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[Guest guest]

Priscilla,But she Carolyn wasn't talking about life support, was she. She was talking about something that could be easily and simply fixed with antibiotics. I think the doctor's questions to her were senseless and awful. Then again, she lives in a Right to Die state. This is where years and years of committing abortions has gotten us. Maybe in that doctor's mind, Marty was just a " late term " abortion, eh? If we were talking about life-support, ad nauseum, I'd agree the patient may have a say, but NOT when the patient is, what I understand to be, a child. To insist that a child can make this kind of decision confirms to me there's something wrong in our medical system. And if Marty is an adult, but possibly with let's say less mature than his chronological years, I'd still say it is the parent's primary responsibility. Why are you trying to subvert Carolyn's valid anger and shock into something that shames or guilts her? Taking this to the extreme - life-support - when that wasn't the topic, is senseless to me.

SharonOn 9/8/07, Priscilla <prisread@...> wrote:

Actually, I have seen miracles on a daily basis. My point is that being an advocate for someone means taking your own opinions and stepping aside to focus on what THE PATIENT wants..... not what you want. It is very easy to make snap judgments based on one's own personal belief systems. I haven't walked in Marty's shoes. It is Marty's quality of life and no one else's that is in question. I think that God has given us brains to use. We have abilities to prolong life or to take it away depending on what the jury says. This is why removing someone from life support (or choosing to never put on the life support) is a decision that is made with much soul searching and prayer on the part of the medical group which the patient's family may never see. The family only sees the doctor/nurses asking the kind of questions that are uncomfortable to ask and uncomfortable to thoughtfully answer. As much as you may disagree, it is the legal

responsibility of the doctor to simply ask. Priscilla in Kansas Be a better Heartthrob.

Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out.

-- Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

[Guest guest]

Hi, CarolynMy prayers are with you. I can't even begin to imagine how strange that was for you. And yes, I think you're right about doctors. The longer I live, the less respect I have for the medical " profession " in general. I'm convinced that when we allowed abortion into this country, we opened up the floodgates to the medical " professionals " having this attitude. Marty is a late-term abortion to them. Nothing more, nothing less. You showed good discernment, Carolyn. Thanks for posting your story. I'm writing a blog about it (leaving out your name), but I find your experience to have been deeply troubling, and your response to have been greatly encouraging.

Blessings in Him,SharonOn 9/7/07, Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

Wow Sharon, you are right! I had not even thought of this, assisted suicide is legal here in Oregon, although I voted against it. That was exactly the attitude that doctor had, aaaaaa! It was really eerie, kind of scared me to tell you the truth. You know I think maybe there are doctors who enjoy killing people, it kind of gets into their blood somehow, the power the can experience when they snuff out a life. That is what made me so MAD at the guy, thanks for sending this, I sent it on to my church group, many of them didn't know what they were talking about and were sticking up for the doctor!

I deleted your name, and the name of this group first, hope you don't mind, should have asked first.

Carolyn

Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

A lawyer would have NOTHING to say. You live in Oregon, a RIGHT TO DIE state, NOT a Right To Life state. There's your problem. Let's hope the rest of the country does go this route. We've already slaughtered 45 million babies through abortion, so I guess it wasn't a very long journey to doctors suggesting kids be murdered when they require simple antibiotics. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/SupremeCourt/story?id=1514546

In a stinging rebuke to the Bush administration, the Supreme Court sided with Oregon in upholding the nation's only physician-assisted suicide law.

Oregon voters have twice upheld a law that permits the terminally ill to take an overdose of drugs if two doctors agree with the diagnosis and conclude the patient is of sound mind. To date, more than 200 terminally ill patients in Oregon have used the law, and now millions may be affected by the Supreme Court's decision. Looks like Oregon's going to be increasing tremendously in population growth when all the special need mothers get wind of this, huh? Here's an easy out! (THAT IS SARCASM.)Have you considered moving??? Sharon

On 9/5/07, Carolyn <

charper777@...> wrote:

I would like to hear what lawyers would have to say also, about what that doctor said to me yesterday.

Carolyn

-- Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

[Guest guest]

Hello Sharon,

Here is something else that happened at this same hospital a couple of years ago and one of the reasons we take Marty in to the ER for a slight fever, etc. Well that other time Marty was sick, didn't even have a fever and so we took him in. I was worried something might be wrong with his throat, infection or something, from the time he had epiglotitis. That time we had to take him in 4 times covering over 12 hours before they diagnosed it.

Anyway the first time we took him they said it was probably an infection, prescribed antibiotic, and sent us home. I got the antibiotic and started giving it to him but could tell something was really wrong with him, but still no fever. He just looked to be in pain and was favoring one side when we took his shirt off, etc., acting like something really hurt. He can't talk but his face shows when he is in pain.

So we took him back, this time they called in a throat specialist to look down his throat with a scope, not a fun experience, and he said he thought the throat looked o.k., and changed antibiotics and sent us home. They had taken a chest ex ray at the first visit, it did not show pneumonia, but did not take one at the second.

Well Marty got worse so we went back again, a day had passed, and he had labored breathing, so they did another chest ex-ray and were shocked to find one whole lung full of pneumonia, it was bad, really bad. The doctor came to me and said they would have to put a tube into his chest to try and drain it, very painful, and it didn't work.

His lung collapsed and he was in terrible pain, and only breathing with one lung. So then the doctor came to me and said he would need a very complicated and dangerous surgery if he was to live.

So the surgeon came to talk to me, and here was his question. He asked me how important Marty was to me!!!!! I was shocked, and said he was my SON, I loved him, all his family loved him, THAT was how important he was to us!!!

So he said he would work very hard to save his life then. Otherwise I guess he wouldn't have!!

Well Marty lived, although he was in critical condition for a week, and in the hospital for several weeks more, he lived. And oddly enough he did not seem to be in much pain, they thought that strange as this type of surgery usually produced a lot of pain. I stayed with him at night, went home for a few hours during the day to watch my little grandchildren while my daughter worked, and as soon as she got off and got the kids I went back.

We were soooo happy when he got out of the hospital and came home, just so blessed and happy that GOd had saved his life once again, and yes He used the medical profession once again.

What do you think about what that doctor asked me? I was really shocked at his indifference, not understanding a mother's love for her son, and visa versa.....!!Q22222222222222222222222222222XXXXXXXXXXXX1 (My 3 year old grandson wrote that)

Carolyn

Carolyn

Re: Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Priscilla,But she Carolyn wasn't talking about life support, was she. She was talking about something that could be easily and simply fixed with antibiotics. I think the doctor's questions to her were senseless and awful. Then again, she lives in a Right to Die state. This is where years and years of committing abortions has gotten us. Maybe in that doctor's mind, Marty was just a "late term" abortion, eh? If we were talking about life-support, ad nauseum, I'd agree the patient may have a say, but NOT when the patient is, what I understand to be, a child. To insist that a child can make this kind of decision confirms to me there's something wrong in our medical system. And if Marty is an adult, but possibly with let's say less mature than his chronological years, I'd still say it is the parent's primary responsibility. Why are you trying to subvert Carolyn's valid anger and shock into something that shames or guilts her? Taking this to the extreme - life-support - when that wasn't the topic, is senseless to me. Sharon

On 9/8/07, Priscilla <prisread > wrote:

Actually, I have seen miracles on a daily basis. My point is that being an advocate for someone means taking your own opinions and stepping aside to focus on what THE PATIENT wants..... not what you want. It is very easy to make snap judgments based on one's own personal belief systems. I haven't walked in Marty's shoes. It is Marty's quality of life and no one else's that is in question.

I think that God has given us brains to use. We have abilities to prolong life or to take it away depending on what the jury says. This is why removing someone from life support (or choosing to never put on the life support) is a decision that is made with much soul searching and prayer on the part of the medical group which the patient's family may never see. The family only sees the doctor/nurses asking the kind of questions that are uncomfortable to ask and uncomfortable to thoughtfully answer. As much as you may disagree, it is the legal responsibility of the doctor to simply ask.

Priscilla in Kansas

Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out.

-- Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,

Just putting out food for thought here... not everyone loves a disabled

son with the same unconditionality as you do. Just think about

how miserable your son would be if he happened to be born to one of

those wretched people instead of you. (Just imagine, going

through an infection without antibiotics or painkillers - that strikes

me as outright torture!!) The doctor may have felt he didn't want

to prolong that suffering if the family was just going to abuse him

anyway - maybe that's why he asked.

It is sad that not all mothers care for their sons as much as you do,

but it can and does happen, even to the luckiest of children.

Just look at the foster care system - what horror stories those

children have to tell! Do you remember last year the baby that

was taken away because the parents were too lazy to change diapers,

that they just kept putting a new one on? Poor kid had rotting

skin. It is just sick what some people do.

-Lana

So the surgeon came to talk to me, and here was his question. He asked me how important Marty was to me!!!!! I was shocked, and said he was my SON, I loved him, all his family loved him, THAT was how important he was to us!!!

So he said he would work very hard to save his life then. Otherwise I guess he wouldn't have!!

What do you think about what that doctor asked me? I was really shocked at his indifference, not understanding a mother's love for her son, and visa versa.....!!Q22222222222222222222222222222XXXXXXXXXXXX1 (My 3 year old grandson wrote that)

Carolyn

[Guest guest]

that is just so wrong he had no business to ask you that god i would of asked him what his mom would of said in the same situation or what he would say about his own kid .I mean really did he expect you to say "oh the son i carried around in my womb for 9 months and had for so many years totally unimportant so don't bother saving him just stick him in a closet til he dies,we have been looking at a newer model" i mean damn people ask that about cars,houses,jobs, but not ur kids .I do not believe they should have the assisted suicides and stuff like that.I mean what about tthe parents who do not want the burden of special needs kids first sign of trouble seems like the drs suggest death .dont the drs take an oath to save lives not take them.the only time i would

understand is the cases where there is no chance of survival with out the machines (which is still not an easy decision and usually for patients that have illnesses that are not curable like a brain stem tumor that is inoperable. stuff like that where pulling the "plug" will just let them go in peace and not pain filled months of agony.think like this a person has no legs no arms since they cannot ever have the "normal life" and will always need assistance in things so we should sentence them to death cuz they do not fit in the society like "normal " "if u are different,you must not be important " bull shit vickiePS keep on going with marty he will let u know when he has had enough Re: Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Priscilla,But she Carolyn wasn't talking about life support, was she. She was talking about something that could be easily and simply fixed with antibiotics. I think the doctor's questions to her were senseless and awful. Then again, she lives in a Right to Die state. This is where years and years of committing abortions has gotten us. Maybe in that doctor's mind, Marty was just a "late term" abortion, eh? If we were talking about life-support, ad nauseum, I'd agree the patient may have a say, but NOT when the patient is, what I understand to be, a child. To insist that a child can make this kind of decision confirms to me there's something wrong in our medical system. And if Marty is an adult, but possibly with let's say less mature than his chronological years, I'd still say it is the parent's primary responsibility. Why are you trying to subvert Carolyn's valid anger and shock into something that shames or guilts her? Taking this to the extreme - life-support - when that wasn't the topic, is senseless to me. Sharon

On 9/8/07, Priscilla <prisread (DOT) com> wrote:

Actually, I have seen miracles on a daily basis. My point is that being an advocate for someone means taking your own opinions and stepping aside to focus on what THE PATIENT wants..... not what you want. It is very easy to make snap judgments based on one's own personal belief systems. I haven't walked in Marty's shoes. It is Marty's quality of life and no one else's that is in question.

I think that God has given us brains to use. We have abilities to prolong life or to take it away depending on what the jury says. This is why removing someone from life support (or choosing to never put on the life support) is a decision that is made with much soul searching and prayer on the part of the medical group which the patient's family may never see. The family only sees the doctor/nurses asking the kind of questions that are uncomfortable to ask and uncomfortable to thoughtfully answer. As much as you may disagree, it is the legal responsibility of the doctor to simply ask.

Priscilla in Kansas

Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out.

-- Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out.