Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

[Guest guest]

Hi Vickie,

I appreciate all your thoughts here, and agree with them. Yesterday I was flipping channels and ran across a program about conjoined twins. There were these two teenage girls who were about as joined as I have ever seen. They had separate heads, separate hearts, lungs, stomachs, but had one digestive system and one set of sexual organs. They each had an arm and a leg they could control.

Their parents just loved and accepted them from the start, the mom was an ER nurse so knew something about health issues. They dressed them up real cute, had their pictures taken and as their lives went along it showed them doing all sorts of things, learning to walk, talk, run, play baseball, soccer, swim, play basketball and they even learned to drive a car and got their driver's license, even did the parallel parking.

It was so amazing, their mom was planning them a sweet 16 birthday party as they were very popular in their highschool. One of the kids was very outgoing, and the other was more introverted, they had different personalities and learned differently. I thought that was interesting.

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't one day marry and have babies together.

It is just that life is LIFE, we each have a different one, not like anybody else's and that ought to be fine with the rest of us. Praise God!

I could tell of other stories such as this, as I do enjoy watching them on TV, it lifts me up and gives me encouragement to see other people's struggles.

Well we have to get ready for church now. has not gone in 2 years since before his heart attack, and Marty either. We are taking his wheel chair. We have an evangelist visiting our church, I saw him this morning. He is from Australia originally and his name is if anybody wants to look him up on Google. He used to be a rock star he said this morning, played for ACDC, and for the Bee Gees about 30 years ago, but one day on a bus somebody said to him "Jesus loves you," and he gave his life to Jesus and began to preach.

It was great this morning, you could really feel the presence of God there.

Talk to you all tomorrow, much love,

Carolyn

Re: Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Priscilla,But she Carolyn wasn't talking about life support, was she. She was talking about something that could be easily and simply fixed with antibiotics. I think the doctor's questions to her were senseless and awful. Then again, she lives in a Right to Die state. This is where years and years of committing abortions has gotten us. Maybe in that doctor's mind, Marty was just a "late term" abortion, eh? If we were talking about life-support, ad nauseum, I'd agree the patient may have a say, but NOT when the patient is, what I understand to be, a child. To insist that a child can make this kind of decision confirms to me there's something wrong in our medical system. And if Marty is an adult, but possibly with let's say less mature than his chronological years, I'd still say it is the parent's primary responsibility. Why are you trying to subvert Carolyn's valid anger and shock into something that shames or guilts her? Taking this to the extreme - life-support - when that wasn't the topic, is senseless to me. Sharon

On 9/8/07, Priscilla <prisread (DOT) com> wrote:

Actually, I have seen miracles on a daily basis. My point is that being an advocate for someone means taking your own opinions and stepping aside to focus on what THE PATIENT wants..... not what you want. It is very easy to make snap judgments based on one's own personal belief systems. I haven't walked in Marty's shoes. It is Marty's quality of life and no one else's that is in question.

I think that God has given us brains to use. We have abilities to prolong life or to take it away depending on what the jury says. This is why removing someone from life support (or choosing to never put on the life support) is a decision that is made with much soul searching and prayer on the part of the medical group which the patient's family may never see. The family only sees the doctor/nurses asking the kind of questions that are uncomfortable to ask and uncomfortable to thoughtfully answer. As much as you may disagree, it is the legal responsibility of the doctor to simply ask.

Priscilla in Kansas

Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out.

-- Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out.

[Guest guest]

Lana,One way to interpret what you wrote is that the doctor was justified by what he asked because there are parents who don't love as unconditionally, therefore, it is reasonable to think the doctors should be responsible for euthanizing (murdering) those less " fortunate " than Marty. If that's what you meant, I don't agree with your intimated message that the doctor was justified in his line of questioning and that it is acceptible for doctors to serve as executioners of those less fortunate in our society. To turn your argument around, in this particular case it was the DOCTOR who was ready, willing and able to withhold the very basic of minimal care by not providing antibiotics - not an unfit doctor. Going along your line of reasoning then, it WAS the doctor who could be accused of outright torture, which I think would be appropriate.

Societies of antiquity, such as the Spartans, abandoned their infants on a barren, exposed mountainside, for any imperfections ranging from an undesirable blemish (possibly a mole or birthmark), all the way to physical disabilities. Even a bad prophecy by the temple priest could sentence a child to abandonment by the parents. Lying alone in the elements, without the ability to save itself, the infant would die from any number of ways - dehydration, weather elements, or possibly serving as a morsel to wild animals including bear.

Vanity, vanity, some things never change. We're still trying to justify playing God.The poor kid with rotting skin was saved, by God's mercy and a system that still works in places when we let it work. My son was born to a couple who left him to lie in his feces and urine-soaked diaper for over a week, abandoned him to his crib in a dark, lonely bedroom while they sat in front of the television in the other room smoking and drinking. The system worked. He's now with us. I really grieve the direction our country is going if we continue to think we can right all the wrongs, and have a world that is pain and trouble-free because then ALL the children WILL suffer at our hands....... Let's just draw up a plan now....who gets to live and who gets to die......

SharonOn 9/16/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

Carolyn,

Just putting out food for thought here... not everyone loves a disabled

son with the same unconditionality as you do. Just think about

how miserable your son would be if he happened to be born to one of

those wretched people instead of you. (Just imagine, going

through an infection without antibiotics or painkillers - that strikes

me as outright torture!!) The doctor may have felt he didn't want

to prolong that suffering if the family was just going to abuse him

anyway - maybe that's why he asked.

It is sad that not all mothers care for their sons as much as you do,

but it can and does happen, even to the luckiest of children.

Just look at the foster care system - what horror stories those

children have to tell! Do you remember last year the baby that

was taken away because the parents were too lazy to change diapers,

that they just kept putting a new one on? Poor kid had rotting

skin. It is just sick what some people do.

-Lana

So the surgeon came to talk to me, and here was his question. He asked me how important Marty was to me!!!!! I was shocked, and said he was my SON, I loved him, all his family loved him, THAT was how important he was to us!!!

So he said he would work very hard to save his life then. Otherwise I guess he wouldn't have!!

What do you think about what that doctor asked me? I was really shocked at his indifference, not understanding a mother's love for her son, and visa versa.....!!Q22222222222222222222222222222XXXXXXXXXXXX1 (My 3 year old grandson wrote that)

Carolyn

-- Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

[Guest guest]

On 9/16/07, Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

Hello Sharon,

Here is something else that happened at this same hospital a couple of years ago and one of the reasons we take Marty in to the ER for a slight fever, etc.

Carolyn,I mentioned your situation to a group in which I participate, and one of the people forwarded a good article from the Idaho Observer. I think it's good information for everyone concerning how to negotiate with doctors, etc. It also includes a case history which has very similar details to your experience, only more extreme. I think it is a shame to have to think that those of us with special needs children should have to be armed to the teeth with legal strategies in order to protect our children, but it seems that's the way of the future.

Best to you,Sharon

From the June 2007 Idaho Observer: www.proliberty.com/observer/20070605.htm

Patient advocacy: Knowing your rights and protecting your loved ones

by Ingri Cassel and Vickie Barker

For many of us who advocate for natural healthcare involving a healthy lifestyle and abstinence from unnecessary drugs and medical interventions, emergency situations do arise in which we are forced into confrontations with mainstream medicine. Confrontations between naturopathically-oriented patients and mainstream medicine may arise during hospital births, unexpected trips to the hospital to set broken limbs, or even crisis care for acute and chronic illnesses that were not properly handled using naturopathic principles.

A recent experience with an elderly family member showed me just how vulnerable patients can be once they find themselves in a medical facility completely dependent upon the nursing staff to care for them. It is not only a humbling experience but can also be extremely disempowering, putting the patient into a child-like state of mind. After all, the patient may be wearing diapers after surgery and dependent upon staff for food, water and bathing needs.

Patient rights

What rights do patients have when hospital or medical facility staff are determined to make sure the patient takes dangerous, doctor-prescribed drugs and synthetic vitamins even if the patient is opposed to taking such harmful pharmaceutical products?

According to federal and state law, patients have the right to " refuse treatment within the confines of the law and to be informed of the consequences of his or her action. "

In other words, if the patient is of sound mind, he has the right to refuse any treatment he deems may be harmful to his well-being. Although the medical staffers will do their best to " inform the patient of the consequences of refusing treatment " such as drugs and other dangerous pharmaceuticals, the patient still has the right to refuse such treatment.

But what happens when the patient does not have an advocate to support his decision to refrain from " drug therapy? " The patient then feels alone, without a " voice " and is easily badgered into complying with those who who claim to be " informing the patient of the consequences of his actions. "

Advocacy

A key solution is in preparation. Early in life most begin realizing that death (of our physical body), at some point, is certain. It is frightening for most, but a fact we do learn to accept. In preparing for this inevitability, there are approaches we can take to communicate our wishes to friends and family. All too often the thought of losing a loved one is terrifying and therefore not spoken of. This has been—and continues to be—the course of action (which is " non-action " ) that most people take until the need arises.

But what happens when a family member or friend is in a life or death situation and does not want to die?

Families have an opportunity and a responsibility to learn what options are available. In some cases, life-threatening events takes place and family-members-turned patients are rendered incapable of voicing their own concerns and methods of treatment.

An example of this was when a friend of mine had a stroke. He had no family members to care for him or to oversee his treatment. Fortunately, he did have a good friend that had cared for him for many years. When he had his stroke he was taken to a local Veterans Hospital, admitted and was given the prognosis that the damage done was not reversible and he was to be taken off life support. At the time, he was not on any sort of mechanical or assisting devices to keep him alive. This man was deaf from his years in WWII and wore glasses to see. In the hospital, these deficiencies were not taken into consideration. At the attending physician's request the staff removed all food and water from him as they considered these essential elements to be " life support.'

He remained in an inhumane and tortuous condition without water for 11 days and without food for 21 days. He was at their mercy and, because of the stroke, he was partially paralyzed and could not speak. The friend and caregiver continued to notify hospital staff that she, in fact, could communicate with him and that he did not want to die.

Through her love, determination for his rights and desperation, she was able to physically lift him from his hospital bed, put him in a wheel chair and actually wheeled him into a hospital administration meeting that just happened to be in progress. At this time, she bent over her dear friend and screamed in his best ear " ED...you have to say my name. Say my name, Ed, or they are going to KILL YOU. "

With this said, Ed mustered up enough energy to speak her name. " Pat " is all he said and this was enough. Then hospital staff immediately began preparation to insert a feeding tube into his stomach. Ed recovered over the next couple of weeks to the point he was released back into his friend and lifesaver's care.

Power of attorney

It is imperative that, while we can, we give medical power of attorney to someone we trust; one who can be that voice for us in those times when we may not be able to communicate our wishes. It does happen, and we must face those inevitable times when we cannot help ourselves.

In Ed's case, he had thought ahead and had done what he thought would prevent needless pain and suffering. In fact he DID have a Durable Power of Attorney in place and Pat was that legal power of attorney. However, the document did not specifically state " medical " power of attorney and this little omission nearly cost him his life.

Medical personnel, most of whom have the best of intentions, are trained to follow the doctor's orders and parrot the pharmaceutical party line that assumes our bodies have drug deficiencies rather than nutritional deficiencies.

Most of us have known someone who is suffering from an illness deemed " incurable " by the medical mainstream. These ailments are most often treated with drug therapy to mask symptoms rather than address the real cause: Nutritional deficiencies coupled with an accumulation of toxins. However, when there is a crisis, the prognosis of " incurable " by the medical mainstream is the " last word " for millions even though, from a naturopathic standpoint, there are no incurable diseases.

That is why it is so important to make sure a trusted family member or friend is given medical power of attorney.

Three healthcare options

Though there are many healthcare modalities available to us, they can be generalized into three categories: 1. The medical mainstream, driven and educated by the petrochemical and pharmaceutical companies; 2. Alternative forms of health care field, offering a variety of solutions without major side effects and risks and; 3. The scientific health community, teaching us how our bodies actually work and how to replenish depleted stores of natural vitamins and minerals needed by the cells for regeneration, rebuilding and the removal of toxins.

Many doctors and scientists are now stating that the scientific health community holds the solution to the ongoing healthcare crisis now affecting nearly every household in this nation.

Of course, the solution is in prevention. However, prevention is a bit late in coming for millions of Americans who are experiencing medical crises. This is one reason we encourage people to read the booklet, Advanced Scientific Health: Your Guide to Elemental Healthcare (see page 24), that we send out with each new subscription to The Idaho Observer and upon request. Knowing this basic information and applying it to your lifestyle can save you a lot of money and spare you, your friends and family members much needless pain and suffering.

Plan ahead

But even with the best of planning and prevention, having a mouthful of mercury amalgams deteriorating in your mouth when you are in your 80s can affect calcium and mineral assimilation while contributing to many other chronic health problems—and leading to a hospital stay.

Being bombarded with intense microwave radiation by living next to a cell tower continually keeps the body stressed and over-acidic—potentially triggering a health crisis—and a trip to the hospital.

One can unexpectedly fall or be in a traffic accident, be rendered unconscious with internal injuries—and awaken to find himself hospitalized.

These are just three examples of issues we face today that can put us into the situation where we may need help from a friend or family member during a health crisis.

Unfortunately, many of us have loved ones who end up in the hospital emergency room for one reason or another. When you find out that a relative or close friend is in this situation, it is important to make this person's predicament a top priority in your life. This is quite literally an emergency that involves life and death since you cannot trust the competence of medical professionals or their intent to have the patient's best interests in mind.

Whether a patient has good health insurance or not doesn't matter. The game seems to be keeping the bill as high as possible, piling on service, equipment and drug charges, even if they are delaying or jeopardizing the body's own natural healing processes.

Without an advocate protecting the patient's interests, the doctor in charge can order unnecessary, invasive, and frequently dangerous procedures (such as a spinal tap) and administer pharmaceutical drugs that can wreak havoc in an already stressed-out body.

Choosing an advocate

Who will speak for your parents?

Who will speak for your spouse?

Who will speak for your children?

Who will be the family back-up person and speak for you?

We suggest that each family have a point person who is willing to research, learn and take action in a time of crisis. Being able to research medical procedures, learning how prescribed drugs work, their contraindications and adverse side affects— while learning ahead of time as much about naturopathy and orthomolecular nutrition as possible—must be a prerequisite for a successful patient advocate. Having an advocate to speak for us when the moment arises and we are not capable could save lives and prevents needless pain and suffering.

Although people are more stressed out today with time constraints than ever before, when an emergency does arise, having preparations in place makes the emergency much easier to address.

What to do as an advocate

Get to the facility as soon as possible. Be prepared to intervene with questions regarding a particular procedure or drug being administered. Look your friend/relative in the eyes if conscious and ask if they need your support while they are there. If they say " yes, " you are vitally necessary as their advocate.

Naturally, it is important to assess the seriousness of the situation and the condition of the patient's overall health. A serious car accident that requires trauma care is quite different than a woman in labor or a friend who may have broken his leg. In general, it is important to find out who the supervising doctor is and introduce yourself to him/her. Be respectful and ask pertinent questions. Although every situation is different, it is paramount to be prayerful in an intimidating and fear-driven hospital atmosphere.

In the case of a hospital birth, it is important to have two advocates so that the baby and mother are always in the presence of a family member. Having a birth plan in writing goes a long way in alerting the hospital board, doctors and nursing staff of your educated choices regarding refusal of standard invasive newborn screening procedures (examples of birth plan letters are posted at VaccineTruth.net).

After the birth, be willing to intervene anytime a nurse attempts to separate the baby from the mother prematurely. A healthy vaginally-birthed baby should be placed on the mother's tummy right after birth for at least an hour. There should be no need to cut the birth cord for a full 30 minutes after birth or until the cord is completely gray.

We have found that advocating for the patient in writing creates a legal document that can be used in court, making the doctors and nursing staff much more compliant to the patient and advocate's wishes. Below is the one I recently used for our family, making nine copies so that the patient was able to hand one to each staff member who kept insisting he take Coumadin, a known rat poison that works to thin blood by interfering with vitamin K metabolism.

To All Nursing Staff –

Due to my sensitivity to all pharmaceutical drugs and synthetic vitamins, I, ___________, will not be taking the drugs and vitamins offered to me here. This is my fundamental right: To choose my own method of treatment. Furthermore, I would appreciate no longer being offered or billed for these drugs/vitamins so that the meager resources I have can be spent on supplements and foods more akin to my biochemical uniqueness so my healing here can be maximized. Please do not badger me over my decision. Instead, feel free to consult with the following people who will be assisting me while I am at this facility.

[Advocate(s) name and advocate contact info]

The more people who support your " drug-free " stance that can be listed along with their phone numbers, the better. In today's medical facilities, much like our courthouses, your chances of success increase by the number of people you have willing to help and support your medical decisions.

r4

[Guest guest]

Hello Lana,

Interesting thought you sent, the doctor wanting to know if my son was getting quality care, or quality of life, etc.

But still I don't like the idea of him thinking he has the power to play God either way. I don't think it should be his call whether my son lived or died, he was just supposed to do his job as a skilled surgeon, and leave the rest to God.

Actually we went to a service at our church last night held by a well known evangelist, his name is . And he said that doctors do not heal, only God can heal, doctors can only do what they are trained to do using the tools they have. I have always known that of course, because there is no way my son would have lived through that surgery and the recuperation, if it had not been God's will that he live. And from all the things he has gone through, it is pretty obvious He has liked him living all these years. His life has a purpose.

Marty just loved being back in church, hard to believe we had not had him down there in about two years now, since 's heart attack, one reason they quit having evening services which we always went to. I go to the morning service.

You could see on his face that he recognized the place, it was just so uplifted and happy to be there, and he smiled at some of the people who said hello to him, it was very touching. I think this little guy is very close to God, have seen it on his face many times, He pours out God's presence.

So I took him up in the prayer line, to be prayed for, and the evangelist came right over to us and prayed for him, and for me. It was great! I feel really GOOD today, and full of strength to press on now, the Bible says that God will renew your strength and you will mount up with wings of eagles, you will walk and not be weary, you will run and not faint.

In fact I just got back from walking 4 laps at the track, it was real nice out, had been raining earlier. I just love fall weather, and am raring to go now.

Carolyn

Re: Re: Quality of life, or when do we pull the plug?

Carolyn,Just putting out food for thought here... not everyone loves a disabled son with the same unconditionality as you do. Just think about how miserable your son would be if he happened to be born to one of those wretched people instead of you. (Just imagine, going through an infection without antibiotics or painkillers - that strikes me as outright torture!!) The doctor may have felt he didn't want to prolong that suffering if the family was just going to abuse him anyway - maybe that's why he asked.It is sad that not all mothers care for their sons as much as you do, but it can and does happen, even to the luckiest of children. Just look at the foster care system - what horror stories those children have to tell! Do you remember last year the baby that was taken away because the parents were too lazy to change diapers, that they just kept putting a new one on? Poor kid had rotting skin. It is just sick what some people do.-Lana

So the surgeon came to talk to me, and here was his question. He asked me how important Marty was to me!!!!! I was shocked, and said he was my SON, I loved him, all his family loved him, THAT was how important he was to us!!!

So he said he would work very hard to save his life then. Otherwise I guess he wouldn't have!!

What do you think about what that doctor asked me? I was really shocked at his indifference, not understanding a mother's love for her son, and visa versa.....!!Q22222222222222222222222222222XXXXXXXXXXXX1 (My 3 year old grandson wrote that)

Carolyn

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

I don't support a doctor acting like an executioner, but I truly

believe it is his right to choose where to use his talents. I

could see it being extremely hard to do a difficult surgery knowing

someone would just be abused again and I think that sometimes a doctor

needs to hear

about the unconditional love so that he can feel it too when working on

the patient. Knowing how loved Marty was may have helped him do a

better job than if he hadn't asked the question (even though he managed

to offend mom by asking).

Who knows - if the answer was no we don't love him, who is to say the

doctor wouldn't have called up foster care or whatever and found

someone that did care enough - and then performed the surgery

anyway. If a doctor feels that his work will go underappreciated

and neglected, he should have the right to deny care. According

to a special I watched a while back - abortion doctors do it all the

time to women who have had more than 2 or 3 abortions because they feel

that if the woman isn't doing anything to prevent conception, she

doesn't deserve another one. I honestly don't think this is that

far away from a family who neglects a disabled person and then just

gets antibiotics or surgery to counter the lack of nutrition and

cleanliness. (We know this is not the case with Marty, because we

hear about him and how much his mother loves him quite frequently - but

that doctor didn't know) There are plenty of other doctors around

that could perform the same surgery who wouldn't care about the outcome

either way, but may not have done nearly as good a job as a

result. Same goes for antibiotics - there is always another

doctor. You're more likely to get better medical care from

someone who truly cares anyway.

I agree that our society is vain, and I am very thankful that the

systems that exist to save the unfortunate from the vain do work well

enough to get these children into the hands of more capable, loving

parents like yourself. Unfortunately, those systems are also

overtaxed and underfunded - so there are plenty of unfortunate people

still out there in the hands of the vain.

-Lana

Lana,One

way to interpret what you wrote is that the doctor was justified by

what he asked because there are parents who don't love as

unconditionally, therefore, it is reasonable to think the doctors

should be responsible for euthanizing (murdering) those less

" fortunate " than Marty. If that's what you meant, I don't agree

with your intimated message that the doctor was justified in his line

of questioning and that it is acceptible for doctors to serve as

executioners of those less fortunate in our society.

To turn your argument around, in this particular case it was

the DOCTOR who was ready, willing and able to withhold the very basic

of minimal care by not providing antibiotics - not an unfit

doctor. Going along your line of reasoning then, it WAS the

doctor who could be accused of outright torture, which I think would be

appropriate.

Vanity, vanity, some things never change. We're still trying to justify playing God.The system worked. He's now with us. Sharon

[Guest guest]

I do want to add that I don't think the surgeon and the

antibiotic doctor are equal. The antibiotic-refusing doctor was

certainly in the wrong for not caring what Mom wanted and trying to

push his own vanity on her. But as I said in my other email -

there are always more

doctors. IMHO, you're more likely to get better medical care from

someone who truly cares.

-Lana

To turn your argument around, in this particular case it was

the DOCTOR who was ready, willing and able to withhold the very basic

of minimal care by not providing antibiotics - not an unfit

doctor. Going along your line of reasoning then, it WAS the

doctor who could be accused of outright torture, which I think would be

appropriate.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lana, I never thought of it that way, that I would be HELPING the surgeon do a better job by what I said. Well if that is true then I really laid it on the guy! I went on and on about how much we loved Marty, how important and valuable he was to our family, how we treasured his place in our family, we would never be the same without him and his contribution to me, his grandma, his brothers, and sister, and his nieces and nephews. I talked for him for a long time, he didn't seem to be in any kind of rush either.

My love for my son just poured out of me like a river, and it was the way I really felt too, I didn't have a single doubt or hesitation or hint of double mindedness in me, which there isn't any.

I got over any of that years ago when I was in the battle with him, and I would recommend any parent do that when they have a disabled child. Just make up your mind, Are you going to protect this child, and care for him, or not? Once you make up your mind then it becomes much easier to do, there might be quite a battle, there certainly was with us, but it only lasted so long, and then that particular battle was over.

And life has been just wonderful since then, so much Peace and Joy, but we've had other battles with Marty, with all he has gone through, but never a double mind about it anymore.

Last night we went to church again, and took Marty up for prayer again, and the evangelist had us stack our hands up, , Marty, and I, and he prayed that we were a three stranded chord not easily broken, this is in the Bible, and he did not know that this is a Scripture we live by. We have learned to bind together and hold one another up, and have been doing it now for about 20 years together. We have had some very hard battles where the enemy tried to put a wedge between us, but we fought him off