Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Judy, thank you!! Brilliant!!I think I'm having some issues with saddle position right now. I also hadn't Part of the problem is that I have 3 very different bikes, and I also now have some different pairs of bike shoes. I think I need to dedicate a certain pair for each bike in order to account for the different sole thicknesses and variations in cleat positions. I really should invest in a bike trainer so that I can work on form too.This post is a keeper!!!On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:22 AM, Judy S <k9sports4gsps@...> wrote: Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is pedal stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout stroke. Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing down what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done with clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 pull up and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having pencil on ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each component equally - this is your goal also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder away from ear etchere is some more..http://www.ontri.com/bikingform.html The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this.Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should have a slight bend in knee. Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you place string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too far forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you bike you do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if correct can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc purposesplease email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike......... wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possibleBelow is a very technical explanation of bike fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 --different bikes for different needs I guess?I have a road bike, and a "commuter bike" both different fit and different shoes, plus I use different shoes for my spin class so set up is a bit different for each.. have to experiment and play around esp as you improve your style or have different goals you will need to change.I use to have a trainer at home but sold it as I needed space when I moved back into the city but I love them.. too bad I would have sent it to you my title 9 friend jFrom: A. M. <plantpowered@...> Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 10:15:02 AMSubject: Re: cycling form, cycle fit Judy, thank you!! Brilliant!!I think I'm having some issues with saddle position right now. I also hadn't Part of the problem is that I have 3 very different bikes, and I also now have some different pairs of bike shoes. I think I need to dedicate a certain pair for each bike in order to account for the different sole thicknesses and variations in cleat positions. I really should invest in a bike trainer so that I can work on form too.This post is a keeper!!!On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:22 AM, Judy S <k9sports4gsps> wrote: Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is pedal stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout stroke. Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing down what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done with clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 pull up and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having pencil on ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each component equally - this is your goal also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder away from ear etchere is some more..http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this.Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should have a slight bend in knee. Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you place string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too far forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you bike you do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if correct can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc purposesplease email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike........ . wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possibleBelow is a very technical explanation of bike fit.http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Yes, that's it. Very different fit and purposes, just like yours. I have a fast road bike for fair weather. I also have a folding road bike for bike-restricted trains, or when I have to load a bike into the trunk of a car. Last, but not least, my old, heavy, steel hybrid from 1990. I've taken excellent care of her, including component upgrades and maintenance. That's my rain bike and my grocery bike. I take her into stormy weather. In fact, when they replaced the worn crank this weekend, a bunch of water poured out of the bracket. (My bad because I had taken the bottle holder off and rain came in through the bolt holes. OOPS.) They sealed up the frame for me. I can haul a ton with that one. She rides like a new bike, but does not attract thieves (she really looks like a boring, slow bike until you ride her, and then it's love). I absolutely LOVE each one. You're right. You need to keep adjusting. So you have to do your setup each time you spin, then? I've never taken a spin class. I can see how you'd quickly become an expert on fit if you had to set up each time. On second thought, i don't need a trainer. Since I'm riding so often now, I really need to do different things for cardio just to give my body a break. (can you tell I lurrrrrve bikes?)On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Judy S <k9sports4gsps@...> wrote: --different bikes for different needs I guess?I have a road bike, and a " commuter bike " both different fit and different shoes, plus I use different shoes for my spin class so set up is a bit different for each.. have to experiment and play around esp as you improve your style or have different goals you will need to change. I use to have a trainer at home but sold it as I needed space when I moved back into the city but I love them.. too bad I would have sent it to you my title 9 friend j From: A. M. <plantpowered@...> Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 10:15:02 AM Subject: Re: cycling form, cycle fit Judy, thank you!! Brilliant!!I think I'm having some issues with saddle position right now. I also hadn't Part of the problem is that I have 3 very different bikes, and I also now have some different pairs of bike shoes. I think I need to dedicate a certain pair for each bike in order to account for the different sole thicknesses and variations in cleat positions. I really should invest in a bike trainer so that I can work on form too.This post is a keeper!!!On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:22 AM, Judy S <k9sports4gsps> wrote: Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is pedal stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout stroke. Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing down what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done with clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 pull up and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having pencil on ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each component equally - this is your goal also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder away from ear etchere is some more..http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this.Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should have a slight bend in knee. Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you place string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too far forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you bike you do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if correct can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc purposesplease email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike........ . wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possibleBelow is a very technical explanation of bike fit.http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 yes - set up each time as others use the bikes plus as an instructor I set up tons of people in my life.. From: A. M. <plantpowered@...> Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 11:34:43 AMSubject: Re: cycling form, cycle fit Yes, that's it. Very different fit and purposes, just like yours. I have a fast road bike for fair weather. I also have a folding road bike for bike-restricted trains, or when I have to load a bike into the trunk of a car. Last, but not least, my old, heavy, steel hybrid from 1990. I've taken excellent care of her, including component upgrades and maintenance. That's my rain bike and my grocery bike. I take her into stormy weather. In fact, when they replaced the worn crank this weekend, a bunch of water poured out of the bracket. (My bad because I had taken the bottle holder off and rain came in through the bolt holes. OOPS.) They sealed up the frame for me. I can haul a ton with that one. She rides like a new bike, but does not attract thieves (she really looks like a boring, slow bike until you ride her, and then it's love). I absolutely LOVE each one. You're right. You need to keep adjusting. So you have to do your setup each time you spin, then? I've never taken a spin class. I can see how you'd quickly become an expert on fit if you had to set up each time. On second thought, i don't need a trainer. Since I'm riding so often now, I really need to do different things for cardio just to give my body a break. (can you tell I lurrrrrve bikes?)On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Judy S <k9sports4gsps> wrote: --different bikes for different needs I guess?I have a road bike, and a "commuter bike" both different fit and different shoes, plus I use different shoes for my spin class so set up is a bit different for each.. have to experiment and play around esp as you improve your style or have different goals you will need to change. I use to have a trainer at home but sold it as I needed space when I moved back into the city but I love them.. too bad I would have sent it to you my title 9 friend j From: A. M. <plantpowered@ gmail.com> Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 10:15:02 AM Subject: Re: cycling form, cycle fit Judy, thank you!! Brilliant!!I think I'm having some issues with saddle position right now. I also hadn't Part of the problem is that I have 3 very different bikes, and I also now have some different pairs of bike shoes. I think I need to dedicate a certain pair for each bike in order to account for the different sole thicknesses and variations in cleat positions. I really should invest in a bike trainer so that I can work on form too.This post is a keeper!!!On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:22 AM, Judy S <k9sports4gsps> wrote: Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is pedal stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout stroke. Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing down what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done with clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 pull up and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having pencil on ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each component equally - this is your goal also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder away from ear etchere is some more..http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this.Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should have a slight bend in knee. Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you place string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too far forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you bike you do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if correct can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc purposesplease email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike........ . wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possibleBelow is a very technical explanation of bike fit.http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 , Where did you get your folding bike? We will have the very begginings of a metro system here sometime this year and I would like to use it once in a while but the stop is about two miles from my house and two miles from my work. :-) a > > > >> > >> > >> Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is pedal > >> stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout stroke. > >> Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing down > >> what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done with > >> clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 pull up > >> and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having pencil on > >> ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each component > >> equally - this is your goal > >> > >> also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder > >> away from ear etc > >> here is some more.. > >> > >> http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html<http://www.ontri.com/bikingform.html> > >> > >> The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this. > >> Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is > >> straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should have a > >> slight bend in knee. > >> > >> Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 > >> oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you place > >> string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too far > >> forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you bike you > >> do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if correct > >> can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. > >> > >> Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height > >> goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc purposes > >> > >> please email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike........ . > >> wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possible > >> > >> Below is a very technical explanation of bike fit. > >> > >> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk< > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Hi a,That's great!! That's a great distance. Not too far at all!I always buy my bikes at my local bike shop. They do repairs too. It's 3 blocks away. I recommend using your local shop because they'll usually let you bring the bike in for free adjustments. You'll want to try out a bunch of bikes, too. I usually go there with a specific bike in mind after doing tons of internet research only to find that the bike fit badly, or that I hated it as soon as I touched it or rode it. My foldie is a Dahon road bike:http://dahon.com/ On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:07 AM, a <paulajfrey@...> wrote: , Where did you get your folding bike? We will have the very begginings of a metro system here sometime this year and I would like to use it once in a while but the stop is about two miles from my house and two miles from my work. :-) a > > > >> > >> > >> Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is pedal > >> stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout stroke. > >> Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing down > >> what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done with > >> clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 pull up > >> and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having pencil on > >> ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each component > >> equally - this is your goal > >> > >> also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder > >> away from ear etc > >> here is some more.. > >> > >> http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html<http://www.ontri.com/bikingform.html> > >> > >> The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this. > >> Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is > >> straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should have a > >> slight bend in knee. > >> > >> Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 > >> oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you place > >> string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too far > >> forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you bike you > >> do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if correct > >> can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. > >> > >> Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height > >> goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc purposes > >> > >> please email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike........ . > >> wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possible > >> > >> Below is a very technical explanation of bike fit. > >> > >> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk< > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Thanks , I'll definitly have to save up!! I also need to double check their bike regulations once they open. I have checked the bike shops for folding bikes but haven't seen any yet. I'm sure that will change once we have metro. Its good to have a brand reccomendation though! Austin isn't very good at being a big city ;-) a > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is > > pedal > > > >> stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout > > stroke. > > > >> Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing > > down > > > >> what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done > > with > > > >> clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 > > pull up > > > >> and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having > > pencil on > > > >> ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each > > component > > > >> equally - this is your goal > > > >> > > > >> also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder > > > >> away from ear etc > > > >> here is some more.. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html< > > http://www.ontri.com/bikingform.html> > > > >> > > > >> The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this. > > > >> Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is > > > >> straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should > > have a > > > >> slight bend in knee. > > > >> > > > >> Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 > > > >> oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you > > place > > > >> string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too > > far > > > >> forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you > > bike you > > > >> do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if > > correct > > > >> can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. > > > >> > > > >> Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height > > > >> goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc > > purposes > > > >> > > > >> please email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike........ . > > > >> wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possible > > > >> > > > >> Below is a very technical explanation of bike fit. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk< > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 yea well dc isn't the easiest... can't take bike on metro or bus during rush hour so makes using for commute hard.. good luck commuting by bike is fun did it for 3 yearsFrom: a <paulajfrey@...> Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 4:07:31 PMSubject: Re: cycling form, cycle fit Thanks , I'll definitly have to save up!! I also need to double check their bike regulations once they open. I have checked the bike shops for folding bikes but haven't seen any yet. I'm sure that will change once we have metro. Its good to have a brand reccomendation though! Austin isn't very good at being a big city ;-) a > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is > > pedal > > > >> stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout > > stroke. > > > >> Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing > > down > > > >> what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done > > with > > > >> clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 > > pull up > > > >> and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having > > pencil on > > > >> ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each > > component > > > >> equally - this is your goal > > > >> > > > >> also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder > > > >> away from ear etc > > > >> here is some more.. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html< > > http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html> > > > >> > > > >> The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this. > > > >> Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is > > > >> straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should > > have a > > > >> slight bend in knee. > > > >> > > > >> Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 > > > >> oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you > > place > > > >> string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too > > far > > > >> forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you > > bike you > > > >> do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if > > correct > > > >> can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. > > > >> > > > >> Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height > > > >> goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc > > purposes > > > >> > > > >> please email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike........ . > > > >> wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possible > > > >> > > > >> Below is a very technical explanation of bike fit. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk< > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 From what I understand, it's a pretty good city, though! FYI, my brother commutes to SF, and he also bought a Dahon too because he fell in love with mine. His is a different model. He loves it. On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 1:07 PM, a <paulajfrey@...> wrote: Thanks , I'll definitly have to save up!! I also need to double check their bike regulations once they open. I have checked the bike shops for folding bikes but haven't seen any yet. I'm sure that will change once we have metro. Its good to have a brand reccomendation though! Austin isn't very good at being a big city ;-) a > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Biggest thing I work on in spinning (or fixed gear bikes) bikes is > > pedal > > > >> stroke - should be smooth like a circle - equal pressure throughout > > stroke. > > > >> Focus on each component of pedal stroke like clock (12 - 6 -- pushing > > down > > > >> what most do, 6 -12 is pull utilizing hamstring and glute-best done > > with > > > >> clips or cleats, 3-9 is push - pull like scraping mud off feet, 9-3 > > pull up > > > >> and around like driving knee up into chest). Then focus on having > > pencil on > > > >> ankle and drawing a smooth circle with the pencil utilizing each > > component > > > >> equally - this is your goal > > > >> > > > >> also keep upper body relaxed -many tighten in shoulders think shoulder > > > >> away from ear etc > > > >> here is some more.. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.ontri. com/bikingform. html< > > http://www.ontri.com/bikingform.html> > > > >> > > > >> The big issue is bike fit. - What I use when teaching is this. > > > >> Saddle height - put your heel on the pedal and put all down and leg is > > > >> straight. When you put the ball of your feet on the pedal you should > > have a > > > >> slight bend in knee. > > > >> > > > >> Saddle front and back - big one--- when you have your pedals in the 3 > > > >> oclock and 9 oclock position the knee should be in 90 degrees when you > > place > > > >> string from knee down should hit middle of foot - if your knee is too > > far > > > >> forward or back it is like doing squats wrong but realize when you > > bike you > > > >> do a gazillion squats, this is how you can injure your knees but if > > correct > > > >> can strengthen all muscles around knee so great for rehab. > > > >> > > > >> Handle bar height - I say comfort is best for beginners so any height > > > >> goes.. as you get to bike more you will want to lower for aero etc > > purposes > > > >> > > > >> please email me off list for more questions.. I love to bike........ . > > > >> wish I could commute biking but I work 30+ miles away so not possible > > > >> > > > >> Below is a very technical explanation of bike fit. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=FAl_5e7bIHk< > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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