Re: NATAP: Ban Vicodin/Percocet-FDA Panel Recommends BULLSHIT

[Guest guest]

i also have experience with acetaminophen, having had a 105.5 fever for a week

in 1995, with highly elevated liver enzymes, with nothing to explain it besides

having taken 3 vicodins and and 3 medium-strong drinks. i wasn't taking NAC at

the time, and most people don't.

there's nothing to stop doctors from prescribing any of the various opiates

currently paired with acetaminophen separately, the problem is in commonly

pairing (and titrating) them together. You describe this as a " powergrab " but

don't show who is gaining power by this move, and how exactly. The point is that

pairing acetaminophen together with opiates in the first place was the actual

powergrab: pharma companies wanted to punish anyone taking 'too much' opiate by

giving them too much acetaminophen to MAKE them sick. here is Time Magazine's

latest article on this, and i'll reprint the last 2 paragraphs here:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1908408,00.html?xid=rss-topstorie\

s

***The members based their decision on the studies and data that were presented

to them during the two-day meeting. The vast majority of studies linking liver

failure to acetaminophen use involve prescription acetaminophen products, such

as Vicodin or Percocet; more than 60% of the acetaminophen-associated liver

problems occurred in patients using prescription medications, while only 10%

occurred in those using nonprescription pain remedies. " The recommendations of

the committee are not based on the logic of what we think is happening, but on

the data presented to the committee, " says Kramer. " A much larger percent of

liver-failure cases associated with acetaminophen involved a prescription

acetaminophen product. "

Members were also concerned about the pairing of narcotic agents such as

hydrocodone and oxycodone, both known to be addictive, with acetaminophen, which

is known to increase the risk of liver problems with higher and higher doses. If

patients become dependent on the narcotic, and continue taking prescription

painkillers, they are also more likely to suffer from liver toxicity associated

with the acetaminophen. " How can you mix a highly addictive drug with one that

can cause toxicity at high doses? " says Dr. Lee, director of the

Clinical Center for Liver Diseases at the University of Texas Southwestern

Medical Center. Lee presented data to the committee on liver damage due to

acetaminophen overdose. " It's like putting poison in a candy. " ****

Jeton

> >

> > i'm always for personal choice, but i think this was a good move indeed.

[Guest guest]

There's always Viprofen (narcotic with ibuprofen) and Empirin #3 (narcotic and aspirin) so it's not like there are no alternatives to using acetaminophen. My understanding is there is a synergy between the two ingredients. Together, they give better pain relief than only one or the other. I've avoided acetaminophen for years. It does nothing for me except make me feel slightly nauseated. From: jetonxxx <jeton@...>Subject: Re: NATAP: Ban Vicodin/Percocet-FDA Panel Recommends BULLSHIT Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 10:48 AM

i also have experience with acetaminophen, having had a 105.5 fever for a week in 1995, with highly elevated liver enzymes, with nothing to explain it besides having taken 3 vicodins and and 3 medium-strong drinks. i wasn't taking NAC at the time, and most people don't.

[Guest guest]

There's always Viprofen (narcotic with ibuprofen) and Empirin #3 (narcotic and aspirin) so it's not like there are no alternatives to using acetaminophen. My understanding is there is a synergy between the two ingredients. Together, they give better pain relief than only one or the other. I've avoided acetaminophen for years. It does nothing for me except make me feel slightly nauseated. From: jetonxxx <jeton@...>Subject: Re: NATAP: Ban Vicodin/Percocet-FDA Panel Recommends BULLSHIT Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 10:48 AM

i also have experience with acetaminophen, having had a 105.5 fever for a week in 1995, with highly elevated liver enzymes, with nothing to explain it besides having taken 3 vicodins and and 3 medium-strong drinks. i wasn't taking NAC at the time, and most people don't.

[Guest guest]

I agree entirely. It's stupid to mix hydrocodone with acetaminophen. They should

be separate meds, to be prescribed as such.

This system is based on paternalism, which is, in general, not truly for the

common good, but biased because someone in power thinks they know best or have

higher moral ground.

Mooney

> > >

> > > i'm always for personal choice, but i think this was a good move indeed.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree entirely. It's stupid to mix hydrocodone with acetaminophen. They should

be separate meds, to be prescribed as such.

This system is based on paternalism, which is, in general, not truly for the

common good, but biased because someone in power thinks they know best or have

higher moral ground.

Mooney

> > >

> > > i'm always for personal choice, but i think this was a good move indeed.

>

[Guest guest]

Ah, I at first requested Vicoprofen to avoid acetaminophen, but because it is

kidney toxic, it raised my blood pressure A LOT. I'm not sure that it isn't more

kidney toxic than acetaminophen is liver toxic. Maybe someone who is a

pharmacologist here knows. I switched to Vicodin, then Norco -- which has less

acetaminophen per amount of hydrocodone for the most benign effect.

Mooney

>

> From: jetonxxx <jeton@...>

> Subject: Re: NATAP: Ban Vicodin/Percocet-FDA Panel Recommends

BULLSHIT

>

> Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 10:48 AM

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> i also have experience with acetaminophen, having had a 105.5 fever for

a week in 1995, with highly elevated liver enzymes, with nothing to explain it

besides having taken 3 vicodins and and 3 medium-strong drinks. i wasn't taking

NAC at the time, and most people don't.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree, however, my " conservative-bashing " includes wolves-in-sheeps-clothing

like Henry Waxman, who never say a paternalistic law to control your behavior

because you're-too-stupid-to-do-it-yourself that he didn't champion.

Waxman's Answers

Drugs/steroids in sports! - Ban steroids from all uses.

dies of painkillers. -Ban painkillers.

Vitamins compete with drugs, according to FDA in the federal register. -Make

vitamins into prescription-only items.

Yes, he's truly a control-your-life-conservative in liberal clothing.

Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com

>

> > This scare on acetaminophen, based on my experience is complete

> > bullshit....

> >

> > Just another powergrab by conservative liars who want to control more

> > people's lives and control the use of painkillers and drugs, in

> > general.

>

> It's very popular these days to " conservative " bash (dog knows, I do my

> share of it as well), but I wish Political Science 101, or even 99.5 was

> taught more widely.

>

> It's actually the trad *liberal* position to centralize government in

> this fashion as well as expand its powers, expand the " nanny state, " and

> mandate this kind of control in people's lives. The trad *conservative*

> position would be to make it all available, unregulated, and let people

> make their own choices, informed or less so.

>

> B/

>

[Guest guest]

The semantics are screwed up.

A true conservative wants government to stay out of controlling people's lives -

I agree with them. Real liberals want to regulate some things to REALLY protect

and really take care of the public. I agree with that.

I agree with socialists related to health care and education.

Politically I am completely independent.

You mistake what I am " bashing. "

The difference between my " bashing " and the way the current Refucklicans bash is

that I don't make things up that aren't true while making some kind of attempt

at character assassination or exaggerating the importance of odd trivia to

distract from the real issues. No, you're wrong. I do agree with you. And I

don't want small government when it comes to protecting the public from

industrial vampires. I want strong regulations that actually protect the

well-being of all the people, while giving the people full freedom to be

themselves.

Mooney

> > I agree,

>

> No, I don't think you do, since you continue to misclassify. My point

> is that classing someone(s) that disagree with you as " the other " is

> simply the same dynamic as the conservatives you are bashing employ and

> you should know which is which, anyway.

>

> > however, my " conservative-bashing " includes wolves-in-sheeps-clothing

> > like Henry Waxman, who never say a paternalistic law to control your

> > behavior because you're-too-stupid-to-do-it-yourself that he didn't

> > champion.

>

> Which is a trad " liberal " position. To have an agency or bureau

> control, (e.g., expanded governmental control) things that individuals

> in a Jeffersonian model can and should control for themselves.

>

> > Waxman's Answers Drugs/steroids in sports! - Ban steroids from all

> > uses. dies of painkillers. -Ban painkillers. Vitamins

> > compete with drugs, according to FDA in the federal register. -Make

> > vitamins into prescription-only items.

>

> Those are not trad conservative positions, as I said. You're describing

> aspects of the nanny state. What the conservatives wish is a smaller

> government with less regulation (Bush, Rove, and Co. are an extreme

> aberration). As you seem to do.

>

> B/

>