Re: An observation on recent exchanges on the group

[Guest guest]

I'm going to let everyone chat for a while and just read.

The only comment I will make at this point is that Inger and Rainbow

are both welcome here provided they are willing to adhere to the

rules.

Tom

Administrator

It's interesting that most of the recent traffic here has been

related to " Bullying! "

Bullying is what made the world what it is today... If you don't like

what some one says beat them up, shout them down, do what ever is

necessary to keep any one from hearing what the " upstart " is saying...

If you look at the history of the USA for example one of the most

common reasons have come to the " New World " was the escape

" oppression " of one kind or another... they came to run away and hide

from bullies... And what is the first thing they do when they got

here the start to oppress the natives... and those among themselves

that did think exactly the same way some group of them did...

I think it is shameful for anyone that has been the target of

bullying to engage in any action that if committed against them they

would consider oppressive...

Isn't that the reason for FAM to exist... to provide a forum for a

group that is routinely bullied to discuss things safe from being

bullied...

To discuss does not mean to advocate, nor does it invite

condemnation. When someone's belief system is so ridged (things that

are too ridged are be nature fragile... look it up in any strength of

materials book) that they can't tolerate an opposing view to exist

and they begin to act to suppress the alternate views is the cause of

despotism, fanatics, and other evils...

For me a lot of why the general population acts the way they do is a

mystery, I operate on a slightly different rule set that reviewed

based on my evolving understanding of the nature of the universe. I

don't understand why most people choose to be so close minded...

Ender...

[Guest guest]

I'm going to let everyone chat for a while and just read.

The only comment I will make at this point is that Inger and Rainbow

are both welcome here provided they are willing to adhere to the

rules.

Tom

Administrator

It's interesting that most of the recent traffic here has been

related to " Bullying! "

Bullying is what made the world what it is today... If you don't like

what some one says beat them up, shout them down, do what ever is

necessary to keep any one from hearing what the " upstart " is saying...

If you look at the history of the USA for example one of the most

common reasons have come to the " New World " was the escape

" oppression " of one kind or another... they came to run away and hide

from bullies... And what is the first thing they do when they got

here the start to oppress the natives... and those among themselves

that did think exactly the same way some group of them did...

I think it is shameful for anyone that has been the target of

bullying to engage in any action that if committed against them they

would consider oppressive...

Isn't that the reason for FAM to exist... to provide a forum for a

group that is routinely bullied to discuss things safe from being

bullied...

To discuss does not mean to advocate, nor does it invite

condemnation. When someone's belief system is so ridged (things that

are too ridged are be nature fragile... look it up in any strength of

materials book) that they can't tolerate an opposing view to exist

and they begin to act to suppress the alternate views is the cause of

despotism, fanatics, and other evils...

For me a lot of why the general population acts the way they do is a

mystery, I operate on a slightly different rule set that reviewed

based on my evolving understanding of the nature of the universe. I

don't understand why most people choose to be so close minded...

Ender...

[Guest guest]

Okay...

I am pretty much hearing that we shouldn't continue having the forums

here. I'll leave the discussion open for a little bitmore time, just in

case.

Tom

Administrator

>PS There is a saying: one should be opened minded, but not so open

minded that one's brain falls out.

[Guest guest]

Ender some of the things you are saying are not very nice or

supportive - please re-read the rules of this forum.

You may just say you are giving an opinion (yours), but I do not

believe you are showing respect here - if you don't care fine - leave

if you want - if you don't care why are you here?

>

> >PS There is a saying: one should be opened minded, but not so open

> >minded that one's brain falls out.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Nick there are still some here that care, I am one of them - I want

this to go back to a supportive place, don't give up yet - I am sorry

to hear what you have been through.

>

> I'm sorry that I cared enough to read your post Ender. You just

made me feel sick to my stomach by writing what you just did. That

hurts but I still believe after what you said that you CAN share

things with me. I've been crying inside because of all this

confusion. I can't say that I need you to believe me. All I can say

is I'm deeply sorry for ever causing you to feel that way about me. I

believe that if you got to know me you would like me. I am a decent

guy. I thought you of all people would understand what it's like to

be neglected simply from being a part of this forum. I had some

issues a couple months ago that I brought into the forums and wasn't

totally honest with myself or with you guys and I felt bad about it.

I had been a part of the tearing down of this community with bitter

words and feel like alot of it truly is my fault and now I'm helpless

to fix any of it. -( I brought in some of my personal frustrations

and turned off alot of people because my writing

> was inflammatory. Obviously you don't want to hear my sob story so

I'll save you the time. I'll just list it:1.) I lived near my grandma

for the first time last year and the year before last and she never

attempted to even talk to me

> 2) I haven't had a job for more than two weeks at a time since I

was 19. 3.) I haven't driven a car since I was 19 because of my own

fault and because of other problems I won't get into. 4) I told my

honduran cousin things about myself and then she told the other

people in my family about it and they ridiculed me for it. 5.) I live

alone and have no friends to speak of. 6.) I'm still recovering from

the detrimental effects from the antipsychotics that my family

literally forced me to take until I had to go through a period of

severe depression and physical pain when quitting it abrubptly. 7)

The government agency that was supposed to help me get a steady job

has been lying to me this whole time and I have to switch to another

agency. 8) I have less than a hundred dollars a month to spend on

groceries and have to borrow money from my parents 9) I'm a drummer

of ten years and I haven't played my drums for over 2 years because I

owe my dad money and he's keeping them until I

> pay him. 10) My rollerblades just went out on me. 11) I'm

painfully aware that alot of people in this forum don't care enough

about me to continue any of my threads because I'm sometimes brutally

honest and explode and feel bad later. 12) I don't even expect you to

respond to this because it's been happening alot lately anyway. I

guess I'm just writing to myself. -( I admit that the administrator

has some issues but would you be able to handle the responsibilty of

keeping a forum like this running for as long as they have? I'll be

the first to admit that I would quit when the going got rough. Maybe

you have an actual life Ender. I hope that it's a fulfilling one, one

that's good enough so you don't have to put your hope in internet

friends. If you think I'm trying to tagteam and accuse Rainbow you're

wrong. I think the administrator has used a few hurtful words to

describe Rainbow and I would have reacted the same way. I have no ill

will against Rainbow or the other people

> in this group. If anything I think Rainbow has alot of wisdom to

share about a great many things. I still would like to believe that

you are a good person worthy of getting to know a little about but,

you'll never know how much your words just ripped my heart apart

>

[Guest guest]

Ender wrote:

> It's interesting that most of the recent traffic here has been

> related to " Bullying! "

>

Interesting, yes but surprising, no. What we learn when we are young is

what we learn best and ultimately it's what we know. Most aspies have

been bullied all their lives. We have learned to hate it but it's all we

know. Stubbornness, factual and insistence on being right are very

common aspie traits.

It only stands to reason that this will be the way we too will respond

even if we hate experiencing it. We simply have no other model to draw from.

Ace.

[Guest guest]

" Well, that pretty much somes it up doesn't, and it just goes to show

that my attempts to set up a community have failed. I haven't taught

you people anything either have I?

And I guess the reason is because I haven't learned that nobody

really gives a shit about anything that I care about. "

Your attempts have not failed - this was a good place and still can

be - it is just facing problems at the moment - the sooner these

problems are dealt with the better and the sooner the boards can go

back to smooth running. I still hold hope.

There are people here who do support what you are doing - not

everyone wants to talk about the subjects you mentioned (ie, drugs,

sex etc), there are others here who would prefer different

discussions.

Please lets move on and keep these boards going and if anyone does

not stick to the rules perhaps it will be better going forward to

deal with more quickly - I still believe in giving people the benefit

of the doubt, but rules are rules and if people cannot abide by the

rules of this place I have to ask why are they here?

>

> " That you and others choose to put any one the says something you

> don't like in to one boxes the represent some one that hurt you as

a

> kid, that's right but if you do that's your loss. "

>

> I'm not really going to argue too much about this except to say

that

> when someone fits the " box " EXACTLY the way the person who hurt you

> did, it's hard to be objective, especially when they continually

> prove your best expectations about them wrong.

>

> You say to yourself " No. I cannot be meeting this person again.

That

> was another person I knew. This person is different. " And then you

> say to yourself, " This time I'm going to try harder. I really am, "

> and so you try, but the person keeps being like that other person

> does, and so on a daily basis it's a constant reminder that yes,

here

> is a virtual twin, or else a " blast from the past " come to visit

> again. And you know that you cannot escape it, and, more to the

> point, even if you do, you know that there are more people like

that

> out in the world, and you just never can get away from it.

>

> It's hard, because you start off trying to change things for the

> better, and you wind up in the same place. And you realize that you

> are all alone, even among folks of your own " kind " (Aspies) and for

> one of the few times in your life as an Aspie, you feel lonely. You

> feel lonely because NOBODY knows how you feel and you just want to

> die.

>

> And meantime, the person who reminds you of someone who once hurts

> you, hurts you again and the folks you held closest sides with the

> person.

>

> " I may not agree with your opinions but you do have the right to

hold

> them... But remember it works both ways I have the same right... "

>

> I agree. But on this forum, certain topics are forbidden. My thanks

> to you for exercising restraint.

>

> " I am sorry that some of you have had a hard life but that does not

> grant you the right to hate every one that doesn't agree with

you...

> If you stop and think about it no two people agree with each other

> all the time. "

>

> Ender, what we hate is that there are a few of us out there who

have

> a cause people, out of their own self interest mess up our efforts.

> Maybe we want to clean up all the pollution, or invent the longer

> burning light bulb. My own causes was to create a haven for people

> who got picked on on other forums. It was supposed to be a place

> where people could set aside stupid meaningless topics, or

subjehcts

> that were ego-driven, or driven by impulses and addictions.

>

> What about the really deep things in life?

>

> But I have come to learn that the majority of the Aspie community

> doesn't want that. They want what the non-Aspie community wants.

Sex

> and drugs and rock and roll. I was speaking tonight with someone

and

> I realize now that I am a dinosaur. A throwback to a day and age

when

> people weren't so wrapped up in themselves. A throwback to when

there

> was such a thing as a community where everyone didn't just care for

> everyone else, but everyone looked after everyone else. Nowdays

it's

> everyone is out for themselves.

>

> If that's what they want, fine...

>

> " It is possible to agree to disagree you know... "

>

> I know. And it can be done while order and respect are maintained.

>

> " ly I don't care about you enough to continue this... "

>

> Well, that pretty much somes it up doesn't, and it just goes to

show

> that my attempts to set up a community have failed. I haven't

taught

> you people anything either have I?

>

> And I guess the reason is because I haven't learned that nobody

> really gives a shit about anything that I care about.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

No you are hearing a few trying to ruin in it for others - I believe

these boards should remain open, many do benefit from them - those

who do not want to stick to the rules can leave!

I am beginning to get a bit outspoken, but when the behaviours of some

others threatens these good boards I can no longer sit back in

silence - I am sick of some people trying to wreck these boards.

I want an end to that behaviour not these boards.

>

> >PS There is a saying: one should be opened minded, but not so open

> minded that one's brain falls out.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with everything you have said Gail, particularly this bit;

" I think one reason why is that they don't want the

> headache, and heartache, or running it themselves.

> They want the forum [or list] that *they* want without

> all the hard work or running and maintaining it

> themselves. It is extremely selfish, IMO. "

I can see how difficult it must be to be in the position of

administrator and I do not envy that role. Administrators are always

going to come under fire - it is not fair and it is not right and some

people do seem to convienently forget that the Administrator is human

and has feelings - I think some people just have a problem with

authority figures - they get it into their heads that those trying to

protect the boards are just out on some power trip when that on this

forum is not the case. I and others would like smooth running of

these boards and not see them destroyed - there are rules for reasons

not just for the fun of it.

There are some very corrupt boards out there, where management is

corrupt - these are very good boards - it would be a great loss for

them to go.

" I would like this list to continue, I love this list.

> However, not at the expense of your peace of mind and

> emotional well being. :-( "

I also agree with this - it is selfish for me to want these boards to

remain open, but I also know that others benefit from them too -

however if Tom feels he can no longer deal with them and that it

would be better for them to be closed that is his desicion, it will

be a great loss of course.

> > You

> > feel lonely because NOBODY knows how you feel and

> > you just want to

> > die.

>

> As I wrote in my other post, I do believe I can relate

> to some of what you are feeling.

>

> > And meantime, the person who reminds you of someone

> > who once hurts

> > you, hurts you again and the folks you held closest

> > sides with the

> > person.

>

> I once had a person I had to ban because she started

> to flout my rule and attacked another member. I wrote

> her privately and she told me to just go ahead and

> lock her out because she wasn't going to stop. So I

> did, and a lot of my members went ballistic on me. I

> started hearing things like I didn't try hard enough

> to reconcile the situation, etc.etc. The members who

> were saying this stuff had no idea of my behind the

> scenes interaction with this person.

>

> I was hurt and very frustrated. She went and started

> her own forum, which was fine. I encouraged anyone who

> didn't like my forum to start their own. Whenever I,

> or anyone else, posted in my forum our confusion and

> hurt over what she did or was currently doing [being

> no longer a member of the forum, to vent about her was

> allowed], the ones who complained about her banning

> kept saying it wasn't fair because she wasn't there to

> defend herself, etc. I pointed out that unless someone

> were to tell her, she would not know what was said as

> my forum is private.

>

> Now, I understood their POV and that because they

> didn't see that she had done anything wrong, or that

> they thought I at least hadn't done enough right in

> addressing the situation with her, that they wouldn't

> want to read ventings about her. Fine. What really got

> me though, is that I was ranted about in *her* forum

> [which was public] on a regular basis.

>

> These same people had no problem with *that* and even

> participated in slamming me. So, I could not vent

> about her in my forum without their jumping in and

> screaming " Unfair! " , but not a peep from these same

> people when *I* was being vilified in *her* forum.

> Their hypocrisy reeked and it hurt, a lot.

>

> > I agree. But on this forum, certain topics are

> > forbidden. My thanks

> > to you for exercising restraint.

>

> I don't get that some people think that they should be

> allowed to discuss certain topics irregardless of the

> forum [or list] rules like it is their right and no

> one had better stop them. Why can't these people start

> their *own* list or forum instead of trying to remake

> a current list or forum into what *they* want?

>

> I think one reason why is that they don't want the

> headache, and heartache, or running it themselves.

> They want the forum [or list] that *they* want without

> all the hard work or running and maintaining it

> themselves. It is extremely selfish, IMO.

>

> The posters in my forum did manage to move me from my

> original vision [because they were so many and to tell

> them to lump it or leave would have caused too much of

> a disruption, so I compromised]. They discussed things

> I didn't want discussed and that even caused me

> personal pain to read, but did they care? No. They

> just wanted to be able to discuss *their* topics

> unhindered. It didn't matter what it did to *me*. I

> put up with it a long time.

>

> So I can relate to you feeling like your feelings

> don't matter to some of your members. Your feelings DO

> matter to me. People *should* care and be respectful

> enough to avoid topics that distress you, or go start

> their own place if they *must* discuss such things.

>

> I would like this list to continue, I love this list.

> However, not at the expense of your peace of mind and

> emotional well being. :-(

>

> Take care,

> Gail :-)

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I'd just like to point out there is a forum for bullying in FAM

FAMSecretShield/

> > It's interesting that most of the recent traffic here has been

> > related to " Bullying! "

> >

>

> Interesting, yes but surprising, no. What we learn when we are

young is

> what we learn best and ultimately it's what we know. Most aspies

have

> been bullied all their lives. We have learned to hate it but it's

all we

> know. Stubbornness, factual and insistence on being right are very

> common aspie traits.

>

> It only stands to reason that this will be the way we too will

respond

> even if we hate experiencing it. We simply have no other model to

draw from.

>

> Ace.

>