Re: Better Times WAS: Why does it seem ... ?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/2/2006 1:43:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, msaraann@... writes:

I agree that the present is not an easy time to be an Aspie, but forme, the n era would have been unlivible. As I understand it,no eccentricity was tolerated, and I certainly would not have beenwilling to wear the clothing. I'm actually not comfortable with formalsocial rules. At least nowadays, I can be eccentric. It doesn't botherme what others think.-sara

That era was full of eccentrics, especially in the budding sciences and universities. One of the most interesting may have been one of Conan Doyle's professors who had such a keen eye and wide knowledge base that he could come up with detailed and accurate descriptions of a person's life and what they had been doing just by looking at them. This professor served as the inspiration for Sherlock Holmes, A character Doyle actually came to dislike very much. He wrote those stories in serial form for newspapers and it was very popular. However, he wanted to do other things, but Holmes was too popular even to kill. He did that once and the outcry was so strong that he had to bring him back.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/2/2006 1:57:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikecarrie01@... writes:

Corsets pulled tight enough to cause internal damage and broken ribs, no sunlight, not eating well, no freedom, oppressive rules and clothing, enormous pressure to get married to someone 'suitable' and then being treated like chattel and expected to have lots of babies with a morbid fear of dying in childbirth, and fainting spells from all of the above. Aagh, I can't breathe just thinking about it!

Not everyone lived under these coniditions and even then not all the time. It was the wealthy that did the corset thing most often, but even then it wasn't always a daily piece of dress. Mostly they were for fancy dress affairs. Not eating well probably applied to most levels of society because food was not as plentiful as today, so you had to eat whatever you could get. The wealth had more of a problem because they tended to eat very meat heavy diets, seeing vegetables as food of the poor.

The rules are also a bit overstated. The rules of etiquette were vast and confusioning, but were also mostly a matter for the upper classes. Given the number and obscurity of the rules, I believe that they were made up as kind of a game of social "I'm better than you". If a person made a single Faux Pas at a function, they would be taken down in the esteem of all the others present. So, I do think it was just a game made up by the dandies to keep knocking each other without ending up in a duel. The rest of the people didn't bother with the vast number of them, but rather just the more reasonable ones, if that.

Women did have it rough in n England, but then they have rarely had it easy anywhere in the world. This is still true today outside of the Western world. You're right about fear of death in childbirth. The rate used to be something like 1 in 4 or there about. That fear is probably one reason the drive to procreate is so strong.

[Guest guest]

>

> > I am thinking that the n Era was probably an excellent time

> > to be AS as everything was governed by rules and etiquette and

> > expectations of civility and what was proper.

>

> I agree that the present is not an easy time to be an Aspie, but for

> me, the n era would have been unlivible. As I understand it,

> no eccentricity was tolerated, and I certainly would not have been

> willing to wear the clothing. I'm actually not comfortable with formal

> social rules. At least nowadays, I can be eccentric. It doesn't bother

> me what others think.

>

> -sara

Corsets pulled tight enough to cause internal damage and broken ribs,

no sunlight, not eating well, no freedom, oppressive rules and

clothing, enormous pressure to get married to someone 'suitable' and

then being treated like chattel and expected to have lots of babies

with a morbid fear of dying in childbirth, and fainting spells from all

of the above. Aagh, I can't breathe just thinking about it!

[Guest guest]

" I am thinking that the n Era was probably an excellent time

to be AS as everything was governed by rules and etiquette and

expectations of civility and what was proper. "

I would likely have rebelled :-) plus there were some terrible things

going on behind closed doors at that time, but the times believed it

to be family business and so it happened :-(

Mmmmmm not sure I would really have know my place as a woman (or kept

in it) back then :-) - did women have strong minds and views of their

own back then? I seem to recall there were a few.

> >

> > Let's not forget changing social values. While Aspies may have

had

> a place

> > in traditional earth based cultures, in the artificial urban

> setting with

> > massive over stimulation the norm, they may have more difficulty

> fitting in,

> > so are easier to spot.

> >

> > In the Lakota tradition, there is the heyoka, the sacred clown,

> who does

> > things backwards (they may also be gay). the heyoka is someone

who

> doesn't

> > act according to the norm, but there is a place for them to be

> part of the

> > community. I am sure the heyoka covered a whole spectrum that may

> have

> > included autism.

>

>

> I am thinking that the n Era was probably an excellent time

> to be AS as everything was governed by rules and etiquette and

> expectations of civility and what was proper.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

wrote: " Corsets pulled tight enough to cause internal damage

and broken ribs ... "

Aaaaaah, deep pressure !

wrote: " ... no sunlight ... "

Aaaaaah, subdued lighting !

wrote: " ... not eating well ... "

Aaaaaah, restricted, predictable diet !

wrote: " ... no freedom ... "

No freedom? Um, that's not what went on with my European ancestors

during this era. Maybe there was freedom for some if they knew how to

work the rules.

wrote: " ... oppressive rules ... "

Aaaaaah, rules !

wrote: " ... and clothing ... "

Aaaaaaah, deep pressure mentioned one more time.

wrote: " ... enormous pressure to get married to

someone 'suitable' and then being treated like chattel ... "

Wow! You know, that wasn't the experience of my European ancestors.

Maybe they were mavericks.

wrote: " ... and expected to have lots of babies with a morbid

fear of dying in childbirth ... "

My aboriginal ancestors were far more prolific in that respect than my

European ancestors. For example, my mother is the 18th child of 23

single births whereas my father is the 5th child (4th surviving) of 5

single births. Both sets of grandparents were part of the n

era. And if I step back another generation, my European ancestors

didn't appear to be as affectionate as my Aboriginal ancestors ...

well, at least where birthing is concerned. :-o

wrote: " ... and fainting spells from all of the above. "

Aaaaaaaah, escapism !

I know what you mean, , but I was trying to illustrate how those

times -- in some small measure -- appear to have been better for

Aspies then now because at least then, people knew what to expect from

life and society at large.

Raven

[Guest guest]

wrote: " Corsets pulled tight enough to cause internal damage

and broken ribs ... "

Aaaaaah, deep pressure !

wrote: " ... no sunlight ... "

Aaaaaah, subdued lighting !

wrote: " ... not eating well ... "

Aaaaaah, restricted, predictable diet !

wrote: " ... no freedom ... "

No freedom? Um, that's not what went on with my European ancestors

during this era. Maybe there was freedom for some if they knew how to

work the rules.

wrote: " ... oppressive rules ... "

Aaaaaah, rules !

wrote: " ... and clothing ... "

Aaaaaaah, deep pressure mentioned one more time.

wrote: " ... enormous pressure to get married to

someone 'suitable' and then being treated like chattel ... "

Wow! You know, that wasn't the experience of my European ancestors.

Maybe they were mavericks.

wrote: " ... and expected to have lots of babies with a morbid

fear of dying in childbirth ... "

My aboriginal ancestors were far more prolific in that respect than my

European ancestors. For example, my mother is the 18th child of 23

single births whereas my father is the 5th child (4th surviving) of 5

single births. Both sets of grandparents were part of the n

era. And if I step back another generation, my European ancestors

didn't appear to be as affectionate as my Aboriginal ancestors ...

well, at least where birthing is concerned. :-o

wrote: " ... and fainting spells from all of the above. "

Aaaaaaaah, escapism !

I know what you mean, , but I was trying to illustrate how those

times -- in some small measure -- appear to have been better for

Aspies then now because at least then, people knew what to expect from

life and society at large.

Raven

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 9:44:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, mikecarrie01@... writes:

23 children! I do have to wonder if in those days, the unhealthy were weeded out. Not that I want individuals to be weeded out, for one thing, I'm sure if I lived back then I probably would have not made it too long--died as a baby or child of flu or or thing since I'm not the healthiest and I'm happy to be here and hope I contribute, but the healthy would go on to have babies and the healthy might not die in childbirth.

I believe they were. Until the 1900's, infant mortality was quite high. Go to any of the old cemetaries and you will see that they are full of child graves, many of them under 2 years old. I know there are quite a few in the family cemetary in Alabama.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 9:44:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, mikecarrie01@... writes:

23 children! I do have to wonder if in those days, the unhealthy were weeded out. Not that I want individuals to be weeded out, for one thing, I'm sure if I lived back then I probably would have not made it too long--died as a baby or child of flu or or thing since I'm not the healthiest and I'm happy to be here and hope I contribute, but the healthy would go on to have babies and the healthy might not die in childbirth.

I believe they were. Until the 1900's, infant mortality was quite high. Go to any of the old cemetaries and you will see that they are full of child graves, many of them under 2 years old. I know there are quite a few in the family cemetary in Alabama.

[Guest guest]

I've heard of him but have never read him. Mark Twain had a problem

with ' praise of the 's Last of the Mohicans which he

elaborated on in the hysterically funny satirical essay: "

Fenimore s' Literary Offenses. " That's about all I know about

him.

But if I were not so pressed for time I think I'd read some of '

work eventually.

Tom

Administrator

Ever read Wilkie ? He's supposed to be the first detective

story writer. Though he doesn't have the same style as Doyle so you

may be indifferent.

[Guest guest]

" Until the 1900's, infant mortality was quite high. Go

> to any of the old cemetaries and you will see that they are full of

child

> graves, many of them under 2 years old. I know there are quite a few

in the

> family cemetary in Alabama. "

I like to visit cemetaries. I think I wrote this before, but once I saw

the grave of a woman who had lost about 6 children I think, then died

in childbirth. All the children died young. I thought she must have had

a sad life and I felt very sad and mourned for her, a woman I never

knew.

[Guest guest]

I recently visited a grave of a neighbor of mine. She used to babysit

me when I was little. I looked at the headstone and could not believe

so many years had gone by since she had died. (25 or therabouts).

I thought of all the things that had happened in my life since then and

all the things she had missed out on. But I also remembered the good

times we had.

The result was my crying for the first time in years.

Tom

Administrator

I like to visit cemetaries. I think I wrote this before, but once I saw

the grave of a woman who had lost about 6 children I think, then died

in childbirth. All the children died young. I thought she must have had

a sad life and I felt very sad and mourned for her, a woman I never

knew.

[Guest guest]

--i would have been MISERABLE! i like politeness but not

hypocrisy.Plus,the clothes were itchy,especially for women.i do not

like long dresses.i would have been like Woodhull,the first

woman to run for US President(before women even had the vote!).She

was really something but some of the things she did i don't think i

can talk about here lol. Kajira

- In , " greebohere "

<julie.stevenson16@...> wrote:

>

> " I am thinking that the n Era was probably an excellent

time

> to be AS as everything was governed by rules and etiquette and

> expectations of civility and what was proper. "

>

> I would likely have rebelled :-) plus there were some terrible

things

> going on behind closed doors at that time, but the times believed

it

> to be family business and so it happened :-(

>

> Mmmmmm not sure I would really have know my place as a woman (or

kept

> in it) back then :-) - did women have strong minds and views of

their

> own back then? I seem to recall there were a few.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > Let's not forget changing social values. While Aspies may have

> had

> > a place

> > > in traditional earth based cultures, in the artificial urban

> > setting with

> > > massive over stimulation the norm, they may have more

difficulty

> > fitting in,

> > > so are easier to spot.

> > >

> > > In the Lakota tradition, there is the heyoka, the sacred clown,

> > who does

> > > things backwards (they may also be gay). the heyoka is someone

> who

> > doesn't

> > > act according to the norm, but there is a place for them to be

> > part of the

> > > community. I am sure the heyoka covered a whole spectrum that

may

> > have

> > > included autism.

> >

> >

> > I am thinking that the n Era was probably an excellent

time

> > to be AS as everything was governed by rules and etiquette and

> > expectations of civility and what was proper.

> >

> > Raven

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That's interesting. Theological? I can sort of see what you're saying about being aware of each other and how we've just started with recognition. It has alot of implications I just don't know about. I, mean how does a group go about obtaining status when the historical examples don't shed too much light on the matter other than sheer domination of the gov't like a Hannibal vs. Rome kind of scenario. maurice <megaknee@...> wrote: > I agree that the present is not an easy time to be an Aspie,Surely the era of our recognition and self-awareness must be an easier time than all time before it? Can you be sure that there will be easier times in the future?We have lived through a world shift, that crept upon us and happened

unforseen. Still early days, still building it, but we know about each other. Before, it used to be their world.I even feel theological about this. Just knowing about us has been the end of a long-running human order.

Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

That's interesting. Theological? I can sort of see what you're saying about being aware of each other and how we've just started with recognition. It has alot of implications I just don't know about. I, mean how does a group go about obtaining status when the historical examples don't shed too much light on the matter other than sheer domination of the gov't like a Hannibal vs. Rome kind of scenario. maurice <megaknee@...> wrote: > I agree that the present is not an easy time to be an Aspie,Surely the era of our recognition and self-awareness must be an easier time than all time before it? Can you be sure that there will be easier times in the future?We have lived through a world shift, that crept upon us and happened

unforseen. Still early days, still building it, but we know about each other. Before, it used to be their world.I even feel theological about this. Just knowing about us has been the end of a long-running human order.

Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

> Surely the era of our recognition and self-awareness must be an easier time

than all time before it? Can you be sure that there will be easier times in the

future?

>

> We have lived through a world shift, that crept upon us and happened

unforseen. Still early days, still building it, but we know about each other.

Before, it used to be their world.

>

> I even feel theological about this. Just knowing about us has been the end of

a long-running human order.

I guess that while we have gained some self-recognition of our shared

traits and their applications and perceived limitations, I have the

feeling that at some times and places in the past people like us may

have been recognized as shamans or gifted people. For example, in many

Native American traditions, " disorders " are not recognized, rather the

person's spiritual abilities are recognized. Today's perceived social

shortcomings would not as readily have been felt in a close community

setting.

-sara

[Guest guest]

> Surely the era of our recognition and self-awareness must be an easier time

than all time before it? Can you be sure that there will be easier times in the

future?

>

> We have lived through a world shift, that crept upon us and happened

unforseen. Still early days, still building it, but we know about each other.

Before, it used to be their world.

>

> I even feel theological about this. Just knowing about us has been the end of

a long-running human order.

I guess that while we have gained some self-recognition of our shared

traits and their applications and perceived limitations, I have the

feeling that at some times and places in the past people like us may

have been recognized as shamans or gifted people. For example, in many

Native American traditions, " disorders " are not recognized, rather the

person's spiritual abilities are recognized. Today's perceived social

shortcomings would not as readily have been felt in a close community

setting.

-sara