Re: testosterone was once off limits for men with prostate cancer. T

January 7, 2009

"So, what I am asking from the medical professionals on this group is: should one be using a DHT supplement like this article suggests would be healthier, or the testosterone like suggested in many other articles, but, may cause prostate cancer? Is it that DHT may be better, but, just not enough research is available? thanks, larry"These are good questions, and here are some really unsatisfying answers.First, I think it's very important to understand that prostate cancer is extraordinarily common. If you look at autopsy studies, 85% of men will have it by age 85. Many of these tumors will be microscopic and without importance, some will kill the patient. It it is very common.It's probably not true to say that testosterone in any form, "causes" cancer, but it's more like fertilizer to prostate cancer cells which do seem to be hormonally responsive in many, probably most, tumors. There are many unanswered questions, though. Prostate cancer tends to be diagnosed at a time in life when testosterone levels are declining or low, but that same tumor could have been around for 10 years before. Studies of Proscar, which blocks the action of testosterone on the prostate, have shown lower rates of prostate cancer in treated men, but when the same men do get cancer, it can be more aggressive.I don't think anyone could recommend one form of testosterone over another, or even suggest that supplementation will lead to an increase in cancer. I do think that if an individual has a tiny focus of cancer in the prostate, that it is a legitimate worry that testosterone supplementation might cause that cancer to grow and possibly spread faster. This is certainly not proven, but there is convincing logic behind the anxiety.In the meantime, there are mountains of evidence backing androgen removal as a cornerstone of prostate cancer therapy, and before just saying "all's fine," I'd like to see some good research suggesting patient groups in which supplementation was ok. Now that Bush is out of the health care business, perhaps good research on the use of anabolic supplements can go forward.JB

March 3, 2009

This discussion is from January.

I followed it casually but didn't input.

Here's some input.

First, DHT is not anabolic to muscle and cannot be a substitute for

testosterone.(Shepard R , Skeletal muscle uses testosterone, not

dihydrotestosterone, to increase protein synthesis., " Hormonal control systems. "

Physiology and Biochemistry of Exercise (pp.291-304) New York: Praeger

Publishing Co.)

DHT is several times more androgenic (male energy) than testosterone and

required for some aspects of brain function and " maleness. " If you have very low

DHT it is likely that your sex drive and overall zip in life will suffer. It's

part of what " pushes " you through life.

Next, while the studies go back and forth over testosterone promoting or not

promoting prostate cancer cell growth, testosterone does not cause cancer. It

can be a growth stimulant to some tissues where cancer might exist - where there

are a high concentration of androgen receptors, as there are in the prostate and

larynx -- so the growth promoting effects MIGHT promote the growth of already

existing cancers in tissues with a high concentration of androgen receptors.

Maybe, but not likely as much as DHT could promote cancer cell growth in those

types of tissues. (DHT is about three times more potent as an androgen.)

I have doubts about testosterone, itself, being an important agent in prostate

cancer cell growth. Men with low testosterone who have prostate cancer die

sooner in some studies. Testosterone supports some aspects of immune function

that are " anti-cancer. " More quality studies say " no problem " with testosterone

than otherwise. And testosterone is typically declining in the years when

prostate cancer appears.

Some data suggest that it's the metabolites of testosterone that have more

effect on this type of cell growth. Estrogen being the primary metabolite that

is known to increase the growth of the types of cells that can be cancerous in

the prostate. DHT also.

That train of thought says that if one controls the metabolites of testosterone

that can promote cancer cell growth -- estrogen/estradiol by using Arimidex and

controlling DHT by using finisteride -- testosterone itself will not promote the

cancer cell growth. This has yet to be determined conclusively, though.

As men get to be past about the age of about 40 several things happen hormonally

that create a scenario that is friendly to prostate cancer cell growth.

1. Progesterone declines which allows DHT to increase. DHT is implicated in

prostate cancer cell growth.

2. The conversion of testosterone to estrogen increases, so the balance between

testosterone and estrogen is " upset " with relatively more estrogen - and

estrogen is definitely a hormone that can stimulate this type of cell growth.

Arimidex can help keep this in check - controlling the amount of estradiol, the

most potent form of estrogen in the body.

Note that we don't want to reduce estrogen totally. It is required for

peripheral vascular health, and vascular health in the brain, for instance. Men

with low estrogen are more likely to have Alzheimers as we get older. We need

SOME estrogen, just not too much. It's a balancing act that is best addressed by

blood testing, to find an appropriate Arimidex dose. Ask your doctor to test

estradiol, and give you a daily dose of Arimidex and then re-test in a month.

Typically, aging men require just 1/4 tablet of Arimidex per day to get a

healthy balance of estradiol in the mid-range, not too low, not too high. If one

is receiving testosterone replacement therapy Arimidex is strongly suggested.

If prostate cancer exists in a man, this can be more complicated, though.

Perhaps estrogen should be reduced to the very low end of normal or??? There are

not enough conclusive data on this subject.

Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com

-- In , livingthelava <livingthelava@...> wrote:

>

> I have never been able to find a DHT supplement, prescribed or

> otherwise, does anyone out there know of one?

> On Jan 7, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Barrow wrote:

>

> > " So, what I am asking from

> > the medical professionals on this group is: should one be using a DHT

> > supplement like this article suggests would be healthier, or the

> > testosterone like suggested in many other articles, but, may cause

> > prostate cancer? Is it that DHT may be better, but, just not enough

> > research is available? thanks, larry "

> >

> > These are good questions, and here are some really unsatisfying

> > answers.

> >

> > First, I think it's very important to understand that prostate

> > cancer is extraordinarily common. If you look at autopsy studies,

> > 85% of men will have it by age 85. Many of these tumors will be

> > microscopic and without importance, some will kill the patient. It

> > it is very common.

> >

> > It's probably not true to say that testosterone in any form,

> > " causes " cancer, but it's more like fertilizer to prostate cancer

> > cells which do seem to be hormonally responsive in many, probably

> > most, tumors. There are many unanswered questions, though.

> > Prostate cancer tends to be diagnosed at a time in life when

> > testosterone levels are declining or low, but that same tumor could

> > have been around for 10 years before. Studies of Proscar, which

> > blocks the action of testosterone on the prostate, have shown lower

> > rates of prostate cancer in treated men, but when the same men do

> > get cancer, it can be more aggressive.

> >

> > I don't think anyone could recommend one form of testosterone over

> > another, or even suggest that supplementation will lead to an

> > increase in cancer. I do think that if an individual has a tiny

> > focus of cancer in the prostate, that it is a legitimate worry that

> > testosterone supplementation might cause that cancer to grow and

> > possibly spread faster. This is certainly not proven, but there is

> > convincing logic behind the anxiety.

> >

> > In the meantime, there are mountains of evidence backing androgen

> > removal as a cornerstone of prostate cancer therapy, and before just

> > saying " all's fine, " I'd like to see some good research suggesting

> > patient groups in which supplementation was ok. Now that Bush is

> > out of the health care business, perhaps good research on the use of

> > anabolic supplements can go forward.

> >

> > JB

> >

1. Shepard R , Skeletal muscle uses testosterone, not dihydrotestosterone, to

increase protein synthesis., " Hormonal control systems. " Physiology and

Biochemistry of Exercise (pp.291-304) New York: Praeger Publishing Co.