Re: New to the group and need help with fermenting vegetables

[Guest guest]

I have had one batch get greyish scum, I skimmed that layer off. The other parts

were fine. But I've only made like 6 batches in my life. I've mostly made kraut.

If white kraut turns pink, then that is bad. If you use red cabbage, it will be

purple for a few days and slowly turn more hot pink colored, that is fine. I

haven't tried beets yet, so i do not know what color they turn. Sorry I can't

help more than that.

From: mariafer2@...

Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 11:12:45 +0000

Subject: New to the group and need help with fermenting vegetables

Hello, I am a mom with a 3 year old with autism. We are currently on the

fgcf diet as well as the Gaps diet. I started making fermented vegetables ( 1

cabbage, 2 large carrots, 1 med. Beet ) everything is organic. I used Celtic

sea salt with filtered water. Used mason jar and covered. At the beginning it

was a nice red color from the beet but 3 days later, the top of the inside of

the jar started to change to a greyish color and slowly is expanding down the

jar. The vegetables don't smell bad and still crunchy. Is this normal? Any

comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think you will be improving

your family's health by feeding this to them. In fact, you could be

contributing to an imbalance in their gut flora, increasing the bad bugs and

therefore health problems. Here's a response I wrote to somebody else asking

about the book Wild Fermentation by Sandor Katz; maybe it will be helpful to

you:

It is a good companion book to other, more accurate sources. Katz claims that

you can use any vessel you want for lacto-fermentation, which simply isn't true.

True anaerobic lacto-fermentation must take place in an airtight vessel -

something mason jars, plastic drums, and other containers he uses are not. In

order to make a mason jar airtight you would have to use a heat process to seal

it, but heat kills the good lactic-acid bacteria (LAB) and completely defeats

the purpose of lacto-fermentation. The best, most comprehensive resource I've

found for lacto-fermentation is www.pickl-it.com; it's a wealth of information.

Check out the articles they have, and the sources they reference, and you will

get a good handle on the safe and proper way to do it. If anybody tells you to

scrape mold off of your ferments or that off-colors are ok, go back and read

more about lacto-fermentation (where LAB outnumber the bad bacteria and prevent

the growth of mold and off colors and smells. Long-term consumption of these

bad-bug-containing ferments will upset your body chemistry and cause health

problems down the road.)

Alyssa

>

> Hello, I am a mom with a 3 year old with autism. We are currently on the

fgcf diet as well as the Gaps diet. I started making fermented vegetables ( 1

cabbage, 2 large carrots, 1 med. Beet ) everything is organic. I used Celtic

sea salt with filtered water. Used mason jar and covered. At the beginning it

was a nice red color from the beet but 3 days later, the top of the inside of

the jar started to change to a greyish color and slowly is expanding down the

jar. The vegetables don't smell bad and still crunchy. Is this normal? Any

comments would be greatly appreciated.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think you will be improving

your family's health by feeding this to them. In fact, you could be

contributing to an imbalance in their gut flora, increasing the bad bugs and

therefore health problems. Here's a response I wrote to somebody else asking

about the book Wild Fermentation by Sandor Katz; maybe it will be helpful to

you:

It is a good companion book to other, more accurate sources. Katz claims that

you can use any vessel you want for lacto-fermentation, which simply isn't true.

True anaerobic lacto-fermentation must take place in an airtight vessel -

something mason jars, plastic drums, and other containers he uses are not. In

order to make a mason jar airtight you would have to use a heat process to seal

it, but heat kills the good lactic-acid bacteria (LAB) and completely defeats

the purpose of lacto-fermentation. The best, most comprehensive resource I've

found for lacto-fermentation is www.pickl-it.com; it's a wealth of information.

Check out the articles they have, and the sources they reference, and you will

get a good handle on the safe and proper way to do it. If anybody tells you to

scrape mold off of your ferments or that off-colors are ok, go back and read

more about lacto-fermentation (where LAB outnumber the bad bacteria and prevent

the growth of mold and off colors and smells. Long-term consumption of these

bad-bug-containing ferments will upset your body chemistry and cause health

problems down the road.)

Alyssa

>

> Hello, I am a mom with a 3 year old with autism. We are currently on the

fgcf diet as well as the Gaps diet. I started making fermented vegetables ( 1

cabbage, 2 large carrots, 1 med. Beet ) everything is organic. I used Celtic

sea salt with filtered water. Used mason jar and covered. At the beginning it

was a nice red color from the beet but 3 days later, the top of the inside of

the jar started to change to a greyish color and slowly is expanding down the

jar. The vegetables don't smell bad and still crunchy. Is this normal? Any

comments would be greatly appreciated.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can't tell for sure without seeing it, but anything on top of a ferment that

looks or smells different or seems fuzzy can be skimmed off and tossed. Keep

your brine high, above the ferment. If you have sink the veggies down with a

weight to keep them down you should.

The problem with colored veggies is they can oxidize in the light and with air.

So, you may just have lost some nutrients and vitamins. Keep your ferments

covered up with a dark towel or do them in a closet. Then, put them in the

fridge when they are done. It's fun to watch them ferment, for sure, but the

more light they get the more than can oxidize. Mason jars seem to reflect more

light (no clue how, but try to make sun tea in one and for a whole day it can

sit out and not get warm, I swear!) but still cover them as best as you can.

ALso, keep the air out, they don't need air. Good luck. let me know if you have

other questions.

>

> Hello, I am a mom with a 3 year old with autism. We are currently on the

fgcf diet as well as the Gaps diet. I started making fermented vegetables ( 1

cabbage, 2 large carrots, 1 med. Beet ) everything is organic. I used Celtic

sea salt with filtered water. Used mason jar and covered. At the beginning it

was a nice red color from the beet but 3 days later, the top of the inside of

the jar started to change to a greyish color and slowly is expanding down the

jar. The vegetables don't smell bad and still crunchy. Is this normal? Any

comments would be greatly appreciated.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I beg to differ. Pickl-it jars are no different that a mason jar. The only thing

they have is an expensive air lock. Here's the deal. When your veggies start

fermenting, they give off a LOT of gas. That gas pushes the air out of the jar

and it goes either through the air lock, or out around the sides of the lid of

your mason jar (or crock, etc.). The air in your home cannot go back into the

jar if the lid is on even remotely tight.. The pressurized gasses of

fermentation can escape. put some brine on the lid under the rim to help keep

out errant bacteria, mold and other stuff. use your finger to do it each time

you reseal the jar. ONce fermentation stops, put it in the fridge right away.

So, until you remove the lid, the jar is actually free of air. If you put a

loose fitting lid on, oxygen can get back in but it cannot get to the bottom of

your fermentation vessel. The fermentation going on under the top inch or so of

the vessel is truly free of air. Pickl-it has a product to sell, remember the

source of your information.

> It is a good companion book to other, more accurate sources. Katz claims that

you can use any vessel you want for lacto-fermentation, which simply isn't true.

True anaerobic lacto-fermentation must take place in an airtight vessel -

something mason jars, plastic drums, and other containers he uses are not. In

order to make a mason jar airtight you would have to use a heat process to seal

it, but heat kills the good lactic-acid bacteria (LAB) and completely defeats

the purpose of lacto-fermentation. The best, most comprehensive resource

[Guest guest]

Pickl-it has a product to sell, remember the source of your information.

Agree. Did we have these jars for the last few thousand years? How did we ever

make it without them?!

[Guest guest]

>

> I beg to differ. Pickl-it jars are no different that a mason jar.

,

It sounds like you haven't seen a Pickl-It jar yet - allow me to explain the

differences! I find this stuff so fascinating. Mason jars and Pickl-Its are

completely different jars: one has a screw-on lid that cannot achieve an

airtight seal without heat processing, one has a wire bail and rubber gasket

that easily achieves an airtight seal just by latching. The quality of

materials aren't even comparable. I've used both, and after using Pickl-Its

decided to buy more Fido jars (which Pickl-Its are made from) for miscellaneous

food storage because I loved them so much. I had also previously tried generic

wire bail jars from Walmart, but got rid of them when I discovered they

contained lead. I am a convert - I love my Italian glass!

If there is no way that air can get into a mason jar, then why are mold problems

so common in mason jar ferments? Of course air can seep into mason jars...this

is why canners use a heat process to seal them - they know the jars are not

airtight and that it would be foolish to simply screw the lids on and then eat

anything out of the jar later on.

In the initial stages of lacto-fermentation, both good and bad bacteria are

present and are fighting to gain a stronghold. The bad bacteria, which thrive

in oxygen, are easily choked out in a truly airtight vessel like a Pickl-It (or

a properly sealed Harsch crock.) Once the fermentation gases build up and the

oxygen escapes, the good microbes have won and the ferment is a success.

However, if the vessel is not properly sealed and oxygen freely flows back into

it, which it easily does in a mason jar, the bad bacteria are being fed and will

likely win - this is when ferments become moldy and

off-colored/flavored/smelling. There is no telling what strains of bacteria you

have or how the pH of the entire ferment has changed in this case, which is why

I never recommend scraping off the mold and eating the rest of the ferment.

Just like I don't give my family brands of probiotics that have been found to

contain bad strains of bacteria: why take chances and ingest questionable

bacteria? Especially if you are already dealing with a compromised gut and are

reliant on beneficial bacteria for healing, like many people in this group are?

I would also like to point out that airlocks are cheap. You can get them on

Amazon, or your local brewing supply store, for a buck or two apiece. You are

paying for the quality of the jar (Fido) and other high-quality components, as

well as the other costs of doing business which are always included in product

pricing. I did extensive research into this product, the materials used to make

it, and the science of lacto-fermentation, and I won't use anything else for

ferments I feed to my family and friends. I also thought Pickl-Its were

expensive when I first saw them, so I wondered what it would take to make my

own. I priced out Fido jars, searched for food-grade grommets, pluggers, and

dunkers, and looked into drilling glass. When it was all said and done, I

realized that it was just easier to buy the finished jars (avoiding the risks of

costly breakage during drilling, investing in the necessary diamond drill-bit

and other equipment, etc). Additionally, the jars are a one-time expense,

whereas buying probiotics (which don't have as wide a spectrum of good bacteria,

and are notorious for testing low for beneficial bacteria and/or positive for

harmful strains of bacteria) are ongoing. To me, it's just a matter of

budgeting for the right things (reusable, reliable products), and investing in

my health.

Just because a commercial website contains resources, it doesn't necessarily

mean the resources are not trustworthy. I would encourage you to follow the

links and to check out the third party studies, papers, and texts Pickl-It

provides - yes, it backs up their method, but it is reliable information from

third parties. I haven't seen one piece of scientific evidence that says

aerobic environments are safe for lacto-fermentation, or that mason jars are

truly anaerobic.

If you're interested in seeing one of my Pickl-Its in person, I'd be happy to

bring it to one of our monthly WAPF chapter meetings in St. . Are you able

to attend Saturday, June 9th? 10:30 to 12:30 at the Como Park Pavillion (on the

lake, not at the zoo.) Always the 2nd Saturday of the month, same time, same

place. Let me know, I'd love to meet you!

Alyssa

St. chapter, WAPF

> > It is a good companion book to other, more accurate sources. Katz claims

that you can use any vessel you want for lacto-fermentation, which simply isn't

true. True anaerobic lacto-fermentation must take place in an airtight vessel -

something mason jars, plastic drums, and other containers he uses are not. In

order to make a mason jar airtight you would have to use a heat process to seal

it, but heat kills the good lactic-acid bacteria (LAB) and completely defeats

the purpose of lacto-fermentation. The best, most comprehensive resource

>

[Guest guest]

This is a great thread!

I just got back from Autism One where Sandor Katz did a 4 hour workshop on

ferments. Like one of the previous posters said (and depending on what

you're trying to make) he recommends everything from open air (covered with

a dishcloth) to a basic Mason Jar to beer bottles purchased form a good

brewery supply (but not the Ikea ones b/c they explode). He also had no

issue with scraping off any mold and claims that " there has never been a

single case of reported food poisoning from home fermented foods. " He

didn't seem hostile to Pickl-its, more like he just doesn't think they're

necessary. I learned a lot at the workshop, but some of what he said about

mold etc did not sit right with me.

I have two other questions (that he also wasn't able to answer). Maybe

someone here has some insight!

1) Some strains of lactobacillus produce a by-product of d-lactate and

some produce a by-product of l-lactate and some produce both. A whole lot

of folks with compromised guts cannot tolerate the d-lactate strains and are

at risk of developing something like d-lactate acidosis (think of this as a

continuum though with some folks just having 'symptoms' they don't

necessarily connect and others being diagnosed in a hospital). This is well

documented in the literature and some probiotic companies that cater to

immune compromised folks do indeed market d-lactate free strains (for

example the company Custom Probiotics). You also find a lot of folks who

just can't tolerate 'any' commercial probiotics or adults who think their

kids are in perpetual 'die-off' mode when possibly they are reacting to the

d-lactate. What I wonder is.is there a way to tell whether the home

ferments are tending more one way or the other (or even to urge them one way

or another). LAB overgrowth.if it is producing d-lactate.can in fact be a

health hazard. In the 'published' literature I could only find one case

that seemed relevant, where they had tied a woman's increased use (perhaps

overuse) of Kombucha to her d-lactate acidosis and to exacerbating her

kidney issues (and of course with no details on how she made it, and yes she

had a number of existing health problems). Now if this were the 'norm' I

suspect we would all be hearing a lot more about it. Nonetheless, since it

is well known that different strains of LAB make different by-products and

that not all of those by-products are always ideal, it would be great to

know which conditions could trend it in one way or another!

2) Re: creating an anaerobic condition.there are plenty of pathogenic

bacteria that thrive in anaerobic conditions (clostridia comes to mind - and

lots of immune compromised kids and adults, including those with autism,

often struggle with clostridia), could there potentially be a down-side to

creating the 'perfect' anaerobic environment (as opposed to the 'imperfect

one' of, say, the Mason Jar where some oxygen will likely seep in? Seems

like there is no guarantee that the LAB could wipe out the worst anaerobic

ones (and I am pretty sure some of those are LAB resistant).

Of course we're all full of multiple strains of bacteria (and virus too) and

in my view it is the overall 'terrain' that matters. But these two

questions nag at me while I am sipping on my Kombucha (and I do know a

couple of people who suffer from d-lactate acidosis)

Cheers

Josie

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Alyssa

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 8:34 AM

Subject: Re: New to the group and need help with fermenting

vegetables

My question is how is pushing the airlock into the grommet and calling it

" airtight " much different than screwing on a mason jar lid and calling it

" airtight " ? I'm not making a statement here - I'm truly wondering.

>

The difference is that two hard materials pushed together will not seal, but

one hard material (plastic airlocok) and one soft material (silicon grommet)

will seal if it's tight enough; the soft material conforms to the hard one.

Is your grommet torn, therefore unable to create a seal? Are you pushing the

airlocks down far enough (so that the open area is completely in the jar)

but not too far (not much further than that) so that the grommet is pushed

through/dislodged? Maybe you can bring the jar in question and we can

inspect it together on Monday.

What exactly do you mean by your results are " slipping " ?

Alyssa

> >

> > >

> > > Agree. Did we have these jars for the last few thousand years? How did

we ever make it without them?!

> > >

> >

> > By using other vessels which achieved the same environment, usually clay

crocks which were sealed with fat and then buried underground or stored in

caves. This new version, a sealed glass jar with an airlock, is just

mimicking this ancient method to make things easier on those of us who want

the ease of simply latching a jar and being done with it

> >

> > I can guarantee open crocks were never used by our ancestors...they were

always properly sealed in containers which allowed for off-gassing. Instead

of homemade salt water brine, they used sea water.

> > Alyssa

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This is a great thread!

I just got back from Autism One where Sandor Katz did a 4 hour workshop on

ferments. Like one of the previous posters said (and depending on what

you're trying to make) he recommends everything from open air (covered with

a dishcloth) to a basic Mason Jar to beer bottles purchased form a good

brewery supply (but not the Ikea ones b/c they explode). He also had no

issue with scraping off any mold and claims that " there has never been a

single case of reported food poisoning from home fermented foods. " He

didn't seem hostile to Pickl-its, more like he just doesn't think they're

necessary. I learned a lot at the workshop, but some of what he said about

mold etc did not sit right with me.

I have two other questions (that he also wasn't able to answer). Maybe

someone here has some insight!

1) Some strains of lactobacillus produce a by-product of d-lactate and

some produce a by-product of l-lactate and some produce both. A whole lot

of folks with compromised guts cannot tolerate the d-lactate strains and are

at risk of developing something like d-lactate acidosis (think of this as a

continuum though with some folks just having 'symptoms' they don't

necessarily connect and others being diagnosed in a hospital). This is well

documented in the literature and some probiotic companies that cater to

immune compromised folks do indeed market d-lactate free strains (for

example the company Custom Probiotics). You also find a lot of folks who

just can't tolerate 'any' commercial probiotics or adults who think their

kids are in perpetual 'die-off' mode when possibly they are reacting to the

d-lactate. What I wonder is.is there a way to tell whether the home

ferments are tending more one way or the other (or even to urge them one way

or another). LAB overgrowth.if it is producing d-lactate.can in fact be a

health hazard. In the 'published' literature I could only find one case

that seemed relevant, where they had tied a woman's increased use (perhaps

overuse) of Kombucha to her d-lactate acidosis and to exacerbating her

kidney issues (and of course with no details on how she made it, and yes she

had a number of existing health problems). Now if this were the 'norm' I

suspect we would all be hearing a lot more about it. Nonetheless, since it

is well known that different strains of LAB make different by-products and

that not all of those by-products are always ideal, it would be great to

know which conditions could trend it in one way or another!

2) Re: creating an anaerobic condition.there are plenty of pathogenic

bacteria that thrive in anaerobic conditions (clostridia comes to mind - and

lots of immune compromised kids and adults, including those with autism,

often struggle with clostridia), could there potentially be a down-side to

creating the 'perfect' anaerobic environment (as opposed to the 'imperfect

one' of, say, the Mason Jar where some oxygen will likely seep in? Seems

like there is no guarantee that the LAB could wipe out the worst anaerobic

ones (and I am pretty sure some of those are LAB resistant).

Of course we're all full of multiple strains of bacteria (and virus too) and

in my view it is the overall 'terrain' that matters. But these two

questions nag at me while I am sipping on my Kombucha (and I do know a

couple of people who suffer from d-lactate acidosis)

Cheers

Josie

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Alyssa

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 8:34 AM

Subject: Re: New to the group and need help with fermenting

vegetables

My question is how is pushing the airlock into the grommet and calling it

" airtight " much different than screwing on a mason jar lid and calling it

" airtight " ? I'm not making a statement here - I'm truly wondering.

>

The difference is that two hard materials pushed together will not seal, but

one hard material (plastic airlocok) and one soft material (silicon grommet)

will seal if it's tight enough; the soft material conforms to the hard one.

Is your grommet torn, therefore unable to create a seal? Are you pushing the

airlocks down far enough (so that the open area is completely in the jar)

but not too far (not much further than that) so that the grommet is pushed

through/dislodged? Maybe you can bring the jar in question and we can

inspect it together on Monday.

What exactly do you mean by your results are " slipping " ?

Alyssa

> >

> > >

> > > Agree. Did we have these jars for the last few thousand years? How did

we ever make it without them?!

> > >

> >

> > By using other vessels which achieved the same environment, usually clay

crocks which were sealed with fat and then buried underground or stored in

caves. This new version, a sealed glass jar with an airlock, is just

mimicking this ancient method to make things easier on those of us who want

the ease of simply latching a jar and being done with it

> >

> > I can guarantee open crocks were never used by our ancestors...they were

always properly sealed in containers which allowed for off-gassing. Instead

of homemade salt water brine, they used sea water.

> > Alyssa

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This is a great thread!

I just got back from Autism One where Sandor Katz did a 4 hour workshop on

ferments. Like one of the previous posters said (and depending on what

you're trying to make) he recommends everything from open air (covered with

a dishcloth) to a basic Mason Jar to beer bottles purchased form a good

brewery supply (but not the Ikea ones b/c they explode). He also had no

issue with scraping off any mold and claims that " there has never been a

single case of reported food poisoning from home fermented foods. " He

didn't seem hostile to Pickl-its, more like he just doesn't think they're

necessary. I learned a lot at the workshop, but some of what he said about

mold etc did not sit right with me.

I have two other questions (that he also wasn't able to answer). Maybe

someone here has some insight!

1) Some strains of lactobacillus produce a by-product of d-lactate and

some produce a by-product of l-lactate and some produce both. A whole lot

of folks with compromised guts cannot tolerate the d-lactate strains and are

at risk of developing something like d-lactate acidosis (think of this as a

continuum though with some folks just having 'symptoms' they don't

necessarily connect and others being diagnosed in a hospital). This is well

documented in the literature and some probiotic companies that cater to

immune compromised folks do indeed market d-lactate free strains (for

example the company Custom Probiotics). You also find a lot of folks who

just can't tolerate 'any' commercial probiotics or adults who think their

kids are in perpetual 'die-off' mode when possibly they are reacting to the

d-lactate. What I wonder is.is there a way to tell whether the home

ferments are tending more one way or the other (or even to urge them one way

or another). LAB overgrowth.if it is producing d-lactate.can in fact be a

health hazard. In the 'published' literature I could only find one case

that seemed relevant, where they had tied a woman's increased use (perhaps

overuse) of Kombucha to her d-lactate acidosis and to exacerbating her

kidney issues (and of course with no details on how she made it, and yes she

had a number of existing health problems). Now if this were the 'norm' I

suspect we would all be hearing a lot more about it. Nonetheless, since it

is well known that different strains of LAB make different by-products and

that not all of those by-products are always ideal, it would be great to

know which conditions could trend it in one way or another!

2) Re: creating an anaerobic condition.there are plenty of pathogenic

bacteria that thrive in anaerobic conditions (clostridia comes to mind - and

lots of immune compromised kids and adults, including those with autism,

often struggle with clostridia), could there potentially be a down-side to

creating the 'perfect' anaerobic environment (as opposed to the 'imperfect

one' of, say, the Mason Jar where some oxygen will likely seep in? Seems

like there is no guarantee that the LAB could wipe out the worst anaerobic

ones (and I am pretty sure some of those are LAB resistant).

Of course we're all full of multiple strains of bacteria (and virus too) and

in my view it is the overall 'terrain' that matters. But these two

questions nag at me while I am sipping on my Kombucha (and I do know a

couple of people who suffer from d-lactate acidosis)

Cheers

Josie

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Alyssa

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 8:34 AM

Subject: Re: New to the group and need help with fermenting

vegetables

My question is how is pushing the airlock into the grommet and calling it

" airtight " much different than screwing on a mason jar lid and calling it

" airtight " ? I'm not making a statement here - I'm truly wondering.

>

The difference is that two hard materials pushed together will not seal, but

one hard material (plastic airlocok) and one soft material (silicon grommet)

will seal if it's tight enough; the soft material conforms to the hard one.

Is your grommet torn, therefore unable to create a seal? Are you pushing the

airlocks down far enough (so that the open area is completely in the jar)

but not too far (not much further than that) so that the grommet is pushed

through/dislodged? Maybe you can bring the jar in question and we can

inspect it together on Monday.

What exactly do you mean by your results are " slipping " ?

Alyssa

> >

> > >

> > > Agree. Did we have these jars for the last few thousand years? How did

we ever make it without them?!

> > >

> >

> > By using other vessels which achieved the same environment, usually clay

crocks which were sealed with fat and then buried underground or stored in

caves. This new version, a sealed glass jar with an airlock, is just

mimicking this ancient method to make things easier on those of us who want

the ease of simply latching a jar and being done with it

> >

> > I can guarantee open crocks were never used by our ancestors...they were

always properly sealed in containers which allowed for off-gassing. Instead

of homemade salt water brine, they used sea water.

> > Alyssa

> >

>

[Guest guest]

What I wonder is there a way to tell whether the home

ferments are tending more one way or the other (or even to urge them one way or

another). LAB overgrowth.if it is producing d-lactate.can in fact be a health

hazard.

>

I looked into the topic of d-lactic acid when I was deciding whether or not to

give my young daughter sauerkraut juice as a digestive aid. I found out that

some homebrew/wine making suppliers sell test strips that measure either l- or

d-lactic acid for use in wine making. kits cost $20-50 bucks. I never bought

any so I'm not sure how useful they would be for testing things other than wine

but just thought I'd mention it.

Jill

[Guest guest]

Fascinating! I am going to check that out. Thank you!

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Jill

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:59 AM

Subject: Re: New to the group and need help with fermenting

vegetables

What I wonder is there a way to tell whether the home

ferments are tending more one way or the other (or even to urge them one way

or another). LAB overgrowth.if it is producing d-lactate.can in fact be a

health hazard.

>

I looked into the topic of d-lactic acid when I was deciding whether or not

to give my young daughter sauerkraut juice as a digestive aid. I found out

that some homebrew/wine making suppliers sell test strips that measure

either l- or d-lactic acid for use in wine making. kits cost $20-50 bucks. I

never bought any so I'm not sure how useful they would be for testing things

other than wine but just thought I'd mention it.

Jill

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > I beg to differ. Pickl-it jars are no different that a mason jar.

>

> ,

> It sounds like you haven't seen a Pickl-It jar yet - allow me to explain the

differences! I find this stuff so fascinating. Mason

Thanks for your upbeat opinion, as sometimes people can get mean on here. Not to

be insulting, but I know what a pickl-it jar is. Let me explain where I'm coming

from. no jar is devoid of oxygen until the oxygen has been displaced with

something else. Until fermentation is up and running, the oxygen is still in the

vessel regardless of the type of container. The smaller the space inside, the

less air is sitting in there. If you open a picklit jar to taste or test your

ferment, you let all the air back in. once you go to stir or consume it, it's

not 'anaerobic' anymore either. the jar is just a jar like any other when the

fermentation stops.

the other factor in successful ferments is keeping your material under the

bring where there is minimal air and no air exchange, or significantly less

o2.(as there is of course some oxygen in water, but not much and likely none

after fermenting).

>jars and Pickl-Its are completely different jars: one has a screw-on >lid that

cannot achieve an airtight seal without heat processing,

I know that mason jar lids, and grosch type bottles that people put their

kombucha ferments in aren't completely air tight, but they're darn close. I have

had lids that I know are holding a seal even in the fridge because the ferment

decides to keep going and once in a while the lid makes its signature 'ping'

sound telling me it burped. You can even feel the pressure under the lid while

it's fermenting. that's a pretty darn good seal.

> In the initial stages of lacto-fermentation, both good and bad bacteria are

present and are fighting to gain a stronghold. The bad bacteria, which thrive

in oxygen, are easily choked out in a truly airtight vessel like a Pickl-It

And they are also 'choked out' in a mason jar when the jar is not opened at the

LAB are giving off CO2 in ample amounts to displace all the air in the jar.

Unless it's pathogenic, i'm not too scared. How do we really know they are 'bad'

bacteria? They are not always desirable due to what they do to the texture and

consistency of the food. Check out this from wikipedia:

" Somewhere between 300[2] and 1000 different species live in the gut,[3] with

most estimates at about 500.[4][5][8] However, it is probable that 99% of the

bacteria come from about 30 or 40 species.[9] Fungi and protozoa also make up a

part of the gut flora, but little is known about their activities. "

actually, we're playing games here anyway, because you can get listeria from

airtight canning jars without oxygen. Mold isn't common with mason jar

ferments... but it's possible. In fact, those spores are in your food, it's just

a matter of if they can reproduce enough for you to see them on the surface.

once you open a picklit jar, that could happen too if there's no fermentation

happening to keep the oxygen out.

>(or a properly sealed Harsch crock.) Once the fermentation gases >build up and

the oxygen escapes, the good microbes have won and the >ferment is a success.

However, if the vessel is not properly sealed >and oxygen freely flows back into

it, which it easily does in a >mason jar, the bad bacteria are being fed and

will likely win

The 'bad' bacteria cannot 'win' because the pH is most likely already quite

acidic and they will not multiply in that environment. that's the same reason

the bacteria have stopped fermenting, they can't even survive in their own

'waste product'. So, when that happens, put it in the fridge. How else would

you preserve it? You could leave the airlock on and leave it out, but eventually

the enzyme activity would turn your ferment quite soft. I have however, left

kraut submerged in a sealed (under airlock) bucket under brine at room temp for

almost a year and it was quite good but a bit softer than ideal.

- this is when ferments become moldy and off-colored/flavored/smelling. There

is no telling what strains of bacteria you have or how the pH of the entire

ferment has changed in this case,

you don't really know what's in there to begin with. You put a raw vegetable

covered in natural mold, yeast and bacteria hoping that it grows and cultures

mostly LAB. You have no clue really what you're breeding. If you use a culture,

such as whey or a commercial veggie culture you at least have a clue, but you

can't be sure unless you sent it for analysis in a lab. Mold will only grow in

the surface is undisturbed, and starts to dry out. You're most certainly

growing some yeasts and fungi unless you sterilize your food like a factory

does.

>I did extensive research into this product, the materials used to make it, and

the science of lacto-fermentation, and I won't use anything else for ferments I

feed to my family and friends.

that's great, you can certainly go with the brand you like, and I hold nothing

against you for it. I wish I could afford a whole slew of them to test and try

and use, but I have chosen to just go the simple route.

> I haven't seen one piece of scientific evidence that says aerobic environments

are safe for lacto-fermentation, or that mason jars are truly anaerobic.

I guess I'm not that anal about fermenting.

>

> If you're interested in seeing one of my Pickl-Its in person, I'd be happy to

bring it to one of our monthly WAPF chapter meetings in St. . Are you able

to attend Saturday, June 9th? 10:30 to 12:30 at the Como Park Pavillion (on the

lake, not at the zoo.) Always the 2nd Saturday of the month, same time, same

place. Let me know, I'd love to meet you!

> Alyssa

> St. chapter, WAPF

>

I appreciate the invite, and honestly didn't even know there was a st. paul

group that met. I would love to visit, and I'll keep it in mind!

[Guest guest]

natural latex will eventually degrade and form small cracks. the other issue is,

if you get material around the airlock and it dries out (ie. no brine touching

it) it can grow mold. the rubber will hold particles and little cracks will

hold stuff and it will just start to mold. You could remove it all, wash then

soak in a sanitizing solution, such as iodine or sufites, (found at wine and

beer making shops) or bleach (not preferred as it would degrade the material

over time).

yes, air could seep, but not much. once you open the jar though, you're letting

air in. unless fermentation is still happening, there's not a positive pressure

on the system and regular air will replace the CO2 in the jar.

> >

> > My question is how is pushing the airlock into the grommet and calling it

" airtight " much different than screwing on a mason jar lid and calling it

" airtight " ? I'm not making a statement here - I'm truly wondering.

> > >

[Guest guest]

>

> This is a great thread!

>

>

>

> I just got back from Autism One where Sandor Katz did a 4 hour workshop on

> ferments. Like one of the previous posters said (and depending on what

> you're trying to make) he recommends everything from open air (covered with

> a dishcloth) to a basic Mason Jar to beer bottles purchased form a good

> brewery supply (but not the Ikea ones b/c they explode). He also had no

> issue with scraping off any mold and claims that " there has never been a

> single case of reported food poisoning from home fermented foods. " He

Sandor is not afraid of natural anything, I don't think! He has a recipe for

fermented drink made from people's spit! haha

>

> 1) Some strains of lactobacillus produce a by-product of d-lactate and

> some produce a by-product of l-lactate and some produce both. A whole lot

> of folks with compromised guts cannot tolerate the d-lactate strains and are

> at risk of developing something like d-lactate acidosis (think of

This is new to me, but the only way to favor one strain over another is to know

what conditions it prefers and also to give it a head start. If you can use a

culture that is scientifically tested to not have that strain in it, you could

use that to start your ferment but you can't be positive nothing else is in

there.

>

> 2) Re: creating an anaerobic condition.there are plenty of pathogenic

> bacteria that thrive in anaerobic conditions (clostridia comes to mind - and

> lots of immune compromised kids and adults, including those with autism,

> often struggle with clostridia), could there potentially be a down-side to

> creating the 'perfect' anaerobic environment (as opposed to the '

>

I don't know if they can grow based on pH, but maybe there are a few present

before the pH gets low enough. I think each one has a different pH range it

prefers.

>

> Of course we're all full of multiple strains of bacteria (and virus too) and

> in my view it is the overall 'terrain' that matters. But these two

> questions nag at me while I am sipping on my Kombucha (and I do know a

> couple of people who suffer from d-lactate acidosis)

>

>

your kombucha would worry me more than any other ferment, because the cultures

are passed along from person to person and rarely are they standardized. they're

done in open air (mostly) where anything can land on them and grow unabashedly.

The yeast is my least favorite thing in there, but I suppose the alcohol

produced somewhat kills other things and preserves it. it's a mixed bag. I can't

really drink fresh yeast without suffering so I don't do the KT anymore.

for beverages, i like to make ginger ale with whey, or other whey ferments and

dilute with club soda.

ginger beer is another interesting one, wild ferment, but again with yeast.

might as well just get a package of bread yeast and do that.

[Guest guest]

Re: Sandor not being afraid of anything natural and the recipe from

fermented spit.honestly what I was thinking was that if the spit came from

an exceptionally healthy person there could be a medicinal quality to such a

thing. At the other end of the, um, digestive tract, there is an Australian

gastroenterologist named Borody who is making a name for himself doing fecal

transplants for very severe ulcerative colitis, Crohns and C. Diff patients.

I heard him speak last week and he argues it has long been an acceptable

treatment among gastroenterologists in cases where antibiotic resistant

strains are rampant (as in the antibiotic resistant c. diff outbreaks). Of

course being a gastroenterologist in a conventional allopathic setting he

and his colleagues were surprised when the fecal transplants they did for

their ulcerative colitis (etc) patients improved not only the bowel symptoms

but neurological symptoms as well (they are exploring its use in Parkinsons

as well as autism). Until this point the 'transfer' has either been done in

private homes via enema between family members or in hospitals via

colonoscopy and via donor stool. Interestingly Borody has a product he is

about to bring to market that 'sanitizes' the stool into capsules and makes

the delivery system less.aromatic.as well as difficult to administer (ie the

enemas). There are clinics all over the states doing this sort of thing.

Interesting really, particularly when you think about the history of stool

used for fertilizer!!

And BTW I agree with you about the possibilities for kombucha gone awry!

Cheers,

Josie

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Y

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:24 PM

Subject: Re: New to the group and need help with fermenting

vegetables

>

> This is a great thread!

>

>

>

> I just got back from Autism One where Sandor Katz did a 4 hour workshop on

> ferments. Like one of the previous posters said (and depending on what

> you're trying to make) he recommends everything from open air (covered

with

> a dishcloth) to a basic Mason Jar to beer bottles purchased form a good

> brewery supply (but not the Ikea ones b/c they explode). He also had no

> issue with scraping off any mold and claims that " there has never been a

> single case of reported food poisoning from home fermented foods. " He

Sandor is not afraid of natural anything, I don't think! He has a recipe for

fermented drink made from people's spit! haha

>

> 1) Some strains of lactobacillus produce a by-product of d-lactate and

> some produce a by-product of l-lactate and some produce both. A whole lot

> of folks with compromised guts cannot tolerate the d-lactate strains and

are

> at risk of developing something like d-lactate acidosis (think of

This is new to me, but the only way to favor one strain over another is to

know what conditions it prefers and also to give it a head start. If you can

use a culture that is scientifically tested to not have that strain in it,

you could use that to start your ferment but you can't be positive nothing

else is in there.

>

> 2) Re: creating an anaerobic condition.there are plenty of pathogenic

> bacteria that thrive in anaerobic conditions (clostridia comes to mind -

and

> lots of immune compromised kids and adults, including those with autism,

> often struggle with clostridia), could there potentially be a down-side to

> creating the 'perfect' anaerobic environment (as opposed to the '

>

I don't know if they can grow based on pH, but maybe there are a few present

before the pH gets low enough. I think each one has a different pH range it

prefers.

>

> Of course we're all full of multiple strains of bacteria (and virus too)

and

> in my view it is the overall 'terrain' that matters. But these two

> questions nag at me while I am sipping on my Kombucha (and I do know a

> couple of people who suffer from d-lactate acidosis)

>

>

your kombucha would worry me more than any other ferment, because the

cultures are passed along from person to person and rarely are they

standardized. they're done in open air (mostly) where anything can land on

them and grow unabashedly. The yeast is my least favorite thing in there,

but I suppose the alcohol produced somewhat kills other things and preserves

it. it's a mixed bag. I can't really drink fresh yeast without suffering so

I don't do the KT anymore.

for beverages, i like to make ginger ale with whey, or other whey ferments

and dilute with club soda.

ginger beer is another interesting one, wild ferment, but again with yeast.

might as well just get a package of bread yeast and do that.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Josie!

Great questions! First, to answer your question about clostridia, here is a

helpful article - it has to do with the pH.

http://www.pickl-it.com/blog/342/what-about-botulism/ Some may scoff at my

linking to the Pickl-It site because " they have a product to sell. " But this

article is filled to the brim with reliable, third party resources that you can

check out (and verify with your own sources and research) and then decide for

yourself. It's pretty interesting, and this page is a comprehensive look at the

very question you asked.

Regarding d-lactate: While d-lactate may form in ferments, in everything for

yogurt to kraut, the issue isn't that food-based d-lactate " causes " acidosis

toxicity, but instead a deficiency exists. There is a lot of good information

about thiamine deficiency, and treatment with thiamine as successful in treating

d-lactate acidosis. Use the model of the " germ theory " when thinking through

" causative " . Do germs " cause " disease. Or are nutritional deficiencies to

blame.

Fermented foods - those that are properly fermented - are known to help restore

and balance proper body pH. There are numerous physical causes for acidosis

including renal damage, failed surgeries, drug overdoses, etc.

About Sandor... Growing bad bacteria in your ferments won't necessarily make you

acutely sick right away. The problem is that you would be feeding the bad

bacteria in your gut, tipping the scales and choking out the beneficial

bacteria, and setting your self up for chronic illness over time. The absence

of reports damning open crocks and mason jar ferments doesn't mean anything; the

problem is one that many people don't/won't trace back to the ferments that are

causing their health problems because they are eating them to " stay healthy. "

Sandor Katz is looking for the wrong evidence (evidence of acute illness traced

back to ferments, vs proof that his methods reliably produce beneficial bacteria

and not the bad ones.)

Sandor Katz states in Wild Fermentation: " As I experimented in the course of

preparing this book, I abandoned my anti-plastic purism and had fine results

fermenting in 5-gallon plastic buckets that I got from a delicatessen. I can

easily believe that chemicals from the plastic leach into the food, but we live

in a plastic world and there really is no escaping exposure to those chemicals. "

Again, he is looking at the wrong angle...yes, we are exposed to plastic in this

world, but why does that suddenly make it ok to leap to the other end of the

spectrum and ferment foods with acidic brines in plastic?! Especially when

there are better and safer options available? Even food-safe plastic leaches

into foods, especially acidic foods like ferments. His quote, and general

attitude toward fermenting, shows blatant disregard for safety and common sense.

And again, the health ramifications of the leaching plastic will happen over

time, and likely won't be traced back to the ferments which he is eating " to

stay healthy. " This reminds me of the article " The 7 Foods Experts Won't Eat "

that was liberally passed around online a few years ago...apparently Sandor

didn't get the memo about plastic and acidic foods...

http://shine./healthy-living/the-7-foods-experts-wont-eat-547963.html

Hope this helps! Good night

Alyssa

>

> This is a great thread!

>

>

>

> I just got back from Autism One where Sandor Katz did a 4 hour workshop on

> ferments. Like one of the previous posters said (and depending on what

> you're trying to make) he recommends everything from open air (covered with

> a dishcloth) to a basic Mason Jar to beer bottles purchased form a good

> brewery supply (but not the Ikea ones b/c they explode). He also had no

> issue with scraping off any mold and claims that " there has never been a

> single case of reported food poisoning from home fermented foods. " He

> didn't seem hostile to Pickl-its, more like he just doesn't think they're

> necessary. I learned a lot at the workshop, but some of what he said about

> mold etc did not sit right with me.

>

>

>

> I have two other questions (that he also wasn't able to answer). Maybe

> someone here has some insight!

>

>

>

> 1) Some strains of lactobacillus produce a by-product of d-lactate and

> some produce a by-product of l-lactate and some produce both. A whole lot

> of folks with compromised guts cannot tolerate the d-lactate strains and are

> at risk of developing something like d-lactate acidosis (think of this as a

> continuum though with some folks just having 'symptoms' they don't

> necessarily connect and others being diagnosed in a hospital). This is well

> documented in the literature and some probiotic companies that cater to

> immune compromised folks do indeed market d-lactate free strains (for

> example the company Custom Probiotics). You also find a lot of folks who

> just can't tolerate 'any' commercial probiotics or adults who think their

> kids are in perpetual 'die-off' mode when possibly they are reacting to the

> d-lactate. What I wonder is.is there a way to tell whether the home

> ferments are tending more one way or the other (or even to urge them one way

> or another). LAB overgrowth.if it is producing d-lactate.can in fact be a

> health hazard. In the 'published' literature I could only find one case

> that seemed relevant, where they had tied a woman's increased use (perhaps

> overuse) of Kombucha to her d-lactate acidosis and to exacerbating her

> kidney issues (and of course with no details on how she made it, and yes she

> had a number of existing health problems). Now if this were the 'norm' I

> suspect we would all be hearing a lot more about it. Nonetheless, since it

> is well known that different strains of LAB make different by-products and

> that not all of those by-products are always ideal, it would be great to

> know which conditions could trend it in one way or another!

>

> 2) Re: creating an anaerobic condition.there are plenty of pathogenic

> bacteria that thrive in anaerobic conditions (clostridia comes to mind - and

> lots of immune compromised kids and adults, including those with autism,

> often struggle with clostridia), could there potentially be a down-side to

> creating the 'perfect' anaerobic environment (as opposed to the 'imperfect

> one' of, say, the Mason Jar where some oxygen will likely seep in? Seems

> like there is no guarantee that the LAB could wipe out the worst anaerobic

> ones (and I am pretty sure some of those are LAB resistant).

>

>

>

> Of course we're all full of multiple strains of bacteria (and virus too) and

> in my view it is the overall 'terrain' that matters. But these two

> questions nag at me while I am sipping on my Kombucha (and I do know a

> couple of people who suffer from d-lactate acidosis)

>

>

>

> Cheers

>

> Josie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

You're welcome! I appreciate your friendly replies, too - discussions can so

easily go south and turn into arguments online. Especially when people feel

strongly about a topic (and this is obviously one of those topics for me.) My

daughters and I have dealt with serious health problems for years, and I know

how touchy diet can be for people with health issues. I started seeing huge

improvements by making small changes in diet, and I know firsthand how a

person's life can be affected by gut health. I'm so grateful for the health

mentors I've had - for steering me in the right direction and encouraging me to

dig in to the research. My hope is to pass some of that along, and to prevent

others from making mistakes that could harm them or prolong their illness.

Living with chronic illness is not even really living sometimes, and I feel the

need to speak up when I see people doing things that may send them down that

road. I just think people should be aware.

Thanks for a great discussion! I hope you're able to make it to the chapter

meeting, and that you'll introduce yourself

Alyssa

[Guest guest]

>

> By using other vessels which achieved the same environment, usually clay

crocks which were sealed with fat and then buried underground or stored in

caves.

Alyssa, could you please zap a reference (and not one from Sally Fallon) to the

sealing with fat and burying underground? Europe please. I know of no one who

seals with fat. Wax in canning but nothing fermenting in fat. Some meats are

sealed (covered!) with fat and left as well as pemmecin (spelling may be off)

but I have never heard of fat being used to seal, lets say, kraut or pickles.

Or used in any clay/ceramic crock.

Much of Germany, Austria, Russia have A LOT of terrain that would not be

hospitable to get to seawater. Here is a map from 1800's, which is a time I

would assume many people would be preserving in this fashion. You can change

the year on the left hand side too but the land does not change--only the

country!

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1800/index.html

> I can guarantee open crocks were never used by our ancestors...they were

always properly sealed in containers which allowed for off-gassing. Instead of

homemade salt water brine, they used sea water.

How would they use sea water in a land locked area or an area lets say, even 50

miles from the ocean? They did not have mass transportation 100 years or more

ago, and I just can't see any farmer trying to make a trip across all sorts of

terrain to get sea water.

Those clay crocks don't have a tight seal. Many were (and still are) made by

hand as well so there are little imperfections in them that make them unique.

They have weights or a plate to hold the goodies under the brine and a lid of

some sort, or a cloth, wood, something to keep bugs/dust/debris from falling in

the crock.

That picklit thing may be a good product but I think someone is making a lot of

money on it. Perhaps it is the easiest and maybe the safest way to do it if you

can't find someone who does the crock method, but I think it can be done in many

ways without a fancy air lock sealing " thingee " .

And only a mason jar of kraut at a time??? Come on, put up a couple gallons!

lol

[Guest guest]

>

> Sandor Katz states in Wild Fermentation: " As I experimented in the course of

preparing this book, I abandoned my anti-plastic purism and had fine results

fermenting in 5-gallon plastic buckets that I got from a delicatessen. I can

easily believe that chemicals from the plastic leach into the food, but we live

in a plastic world and there really is no escaping exposure to those chemicals. "

Alyssa,

I wouldn't use plastic for fermenting (but I have the crocks). BUT, there are

going to be some people out there who can not afford that picklit gadget, or are

unwilling to try something that spendy for a little result when there is the

strong belief that they can get a good result from a canning jar, crock, or

heaven forbid, a plastic bucket from the local Asian buffet.

And to see if it " worked " is different that recommending it. From the quote I

don't think he was recommending plastic but offering it up as this thing works

but I also assume it leaches chemicals into the food type of thing.

[Guest guest]

Hi Alyssa

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I appreciate it!

Couple of points back.

As for the pickl-it link about clostridium, yes this addresses the question

of clostridium botulinum but does not address the question of c. difficile

and of course they are quite different. I can make a theoretical

extrapolation that the ph will not allow 'any' anaerobic bacteria to survive

and that may in fact be true but I try to be as concrete as I can about what

I do know and what I don't know and honestly, I just don't know whether

other (pathogenic) anaerobic bacteria survive. Why do I think this matters?

Because a ton of immune compromised folks (including a lot of immune

compromised kids like the ones with autism) are colonized with non-ideal

anaerobic bacteria including (or perhaps especially) c. difficile. We see

it on stool tests all the time and when we don't see it on stool tests we

see 'evidence' of it based on the metabolites it produces. Those spores are

super hard to kill or crowd out of existence (btw did you see my other post

on Borody the fecal transplant guy? He confirmed that even Vancomycin

doesn't kill the spores which is why people see improvements on Vanco that

don't last after treatment - because the spores eventually facilitate new

growth).

When it comes to d-lactate overgrowth, I certainly did not mean to imply

that d-lactate producing strains were the root cause of d-lactate acidosis!

Here's the thing though, and we all know this. When you have a super sick

person that person is typically not absorbing and metabolizing key

nutrients. In some of these kids (and adults) you could (and integrative

practitioners who test for these deficiencies do) pour all the thiamine (and

vitamin D) in the world down their poor little gullets and they would not

absorb a drop of it - or in any case enough of it! D-lactate acidosis (or

something close to it) can be an issue not just in the case of a frank

thiamine deficiency but it can be an issue in mitochondrial dysfunction and

Krebs Cycle abnormalities, urea cycle disorders (all of which your average

kid with autism is known to have). It can be an issue for people with high

oxalates or kidney stones or gout or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth

(SIBO) and motility issues (etc etc). Now of course all of these things

also link back to specific nutrient imbalances and yet.solving them is often

an art and a time consuming one at that! So my thought is (and this has

also been my observation) that it is often helpful to keep d-lactate

producing strains of probiotic away from these folks until or unless they

are well enough to handle them. Because you see elevated d-lactate is no

laughing matter. It impairs memory, it induces panic attacks, it competes

for available B12 in the body, and even seems to deplete glutathione (I have

the supporting documents for all that if you want them but don't want to

clog the board with this).

As for Sandor, I think you and I are on the same page in terms of wanting to

stay away from leeching plastic and all manner of toxins and tossing a

product that has mold (actually here's one for you - a woman near me

recently recommended weighting kraut with an aluminum foil wrapped stone or

aluminum can. Eek!). Here's the thing about Sandor though. I like his

relaxed approach as long as we are not using it as the 'gold standard' for

treating really sickly people. My sense after listening to him in person

for almost four hours is that he is personally just a very laid back guy and

really wants to bring folks into the 'fermenting fold' and maybe doesn't

even think too much about the rest of it. SO many people don't ferment

because they think it's too hard or too temperamental or you need special

supplies or ingredients or they'll mess it up or kill themselves. He has a

great way of getting people to just 'go for it' and teaching them that it

isn't all that intimidating. I love that!! He had the audience laughing

out loud when he was telling stories about a friend of his who dumpster

dives for leftover veggies and that only once did they encounter a situation

where the leftover veggies (from some fast food chain can't remember the

name - yuck!) were likely sprayed with some bacteria inhibitor thing because

they just would. Not. ferment. People were laughing out loud not just at

the story but at least in my case at the image of Sandor and his friend

dumpster diving outside of a fast food chain restaurant. Would I do this?

Heck no! Would I recommend anyone with a compromised family member do this

sort of thing? Heck no! But I love how 'un fussy' he is. I don't have his

newer book The Art of Fermentation yet but listening to him made me want to

pick it up. Do you have it? He says it's a book he " could not have written

ten years ago " just in terms of all he has learned since.

Take care and thanks for the dialogue!

Josie

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Alyssa

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:43 PM

Subject: Re: New to the group and need help with fermenting

vegetables

Hi, Josie!

Great questions! First, to answer your question about clostridia, here is a

helpful article - it has to do with the pH.

http://www.pickl-it.com/blog/342/what-about-botulism/ Some may scoff at my

linking to the Pickl-It site because " they have a product to sell. " But this

article is filled to the brim with reliable, third party resources that you

can check out (and verify with your own sources and research) and then

decide for yourself. It's pretty interesting, and this page is a

comprehensive look at the very question you asked.

Regarding d-lactate: While d-lactate may form in ferments, in everything for

yogurt to kraut, the issue isn't that food-based d-lactate " causes " acidosis

toxicity, but instead a deficiency exists. There is a lot of good

information about thiamine deficiency, and treatment with thiamine as

successful in treating d-lactate acidosis. Use the model of the " germ

theory " when thinking through " causative " . Do germs " cause " disease. Or are

nutritional deficiencies to blame.

Fermented foods - those that are properly fermented - are known to help

restore and balance proper body pH. There are numerous physical causes for

acidosis including renal damage, failed surgeries, drug overdoses, etc.

About Sandor... Growing bad bacteria in your ferments won't necessarily make

you acutely sick right away. The problem is that you would be feeding the

bad bacteria in your gut, tipping the scales and choking out the beneficial

bacteria, and setting your self up for chronic illness over time. The

absence of reports damning open crocks and mason jar ferments doesn't mean

anything; the problem is one that many people don't/won't trace back to the

ferments that are causing their health problems because they are eating them

to " stay healthy. " Sandor Katz is looking for the wrong evidence (evidence

of acute illness traced back to ferments, vs proof that his methods reliably

produce beneficial bacteria and not the bad ones.)

Sandor Katz states in Wild Fermentation: " As I experimented in the course of

preparing this book, I abandoned my anti-plastic purism and had fine results

fermenting in 5-gallon plastic buckets that I got from a delicatessen. I can

easily believe that chemicals from the plastic leach into the food, but we

live in a plastic world and there really is no escaping exposure to those

chemicals. " Again, he is looking at the wrong angle...yes, we are exposed to

plastic in this world, but why does that suddenly make it ok to leap to the

other end of the spectrum and ferment foods with acidic brines in plastic?!

Especially when there are better and safer options available? Even food-safe

plastic leaches into foods, especially acidic foods like ferments. His

quote, and general attitude toward fermenting, shows blatant disregard for

safety and common sense. And again, the health ramifications of the leaching

plastic will happen over time, and likely won't be traced back to the

ferments which he is eating " to stay healthy. " This reminds me of the

article " The 7 Foods Experts Won't Eat " that was liberally passed around

online a few years ago...apparently Sandor didn't get the memo about plastic

and acidic foods...

http://shine./healthy-living/the-7-foods-experts-wont-eat-547963.ht

ml

Hope this helps! Good night

Alyssa

>

> This is a great thread!

>

>

>

> I just got back from Autism One where Sandor Katz did a 4 hour workshop on

> ferments. Like one of the previous posters said (and depending on what

> you're trying to make) he recommends everything from open air (covered

with

> a dishcloth) to a basic Mason Jar to beer bottles purchased form a good

> brewery supply (but not the Ikea ones b/c they explode). He also had no

> issue with scraping off any mold and claims that " there has never been a

> single case of reported food poisoning from home fermented foods. " He

> didn't seem hostile to Pickl-its, more like he just doesn't think they're

> necessary. I learned a lot at the workshop, but some of what he said about

> mold etc did not sit right with me.

>

>

>

> I have two other questions (that he also wasn't able to answer). Maybe

> someone here has some insight!

>

>

>

> 1) Some strains of lactobacillus produce a by-product of d-lactate and

> some produce a by-product of l-lactate and some produce both. A whole lot

> of folks with compromised guts cannot tolerate the d-lactate strains and

are

> at risk of developing something like d-lactate acidosis (think of this as

a

> continuum though with some folks just having 'symptoms' they don't

> necessarily connect and others being diagnosed in a hospital). This is

well

> documented in the literature and some probiotic companies that cater to

> immune compromised folks do indeed market d-lactate free strains (for

> example the company Custom Probiotics). You also find a lot of folks who

> just can't tolerate 'any' commercial probiotics or adults who think their

> kids are in perpetual 'die-off' mode when possibly they are reacting to

the

> d-lactate. What I wonder is.is there a way to tell whether the home

> ferments are tending more one way or the other (or even to urge them one

way

> or another). LAB overgrowth.if it is producing d-lactate.can in fact be a

> health hazard. In the 'published' literature I could only find one case

> that seemed relevant, where they had tied a woman's increased use (perhaps

> overuse) of Kombucha to her d-lactate acidosis and to exacerbating her

> kidney issues (and of course with no details on how she made it, and yes

she

> had a number of existing health problems). Now if this were the 'norm' I

> suspect we would all be hearing a lot more about it. Nonetheless, since it

> is well known that different strains of LAB make different by-products and

> that not all of those by-products are always ideal, it would be great to

> know which conditions could trend it in one way or another!

>

> 2) Re: creating an anaerobic condition.there are plenty of pathogenic

> bacteria that thrive in anaerobic conditions (clostridia comes to mind -

and

> lots of immune compromised kids and adults, including those with autism,

> often struggle with clostridia), could there potentially be a down-side to

> creating the 'perfect' anaerobic environment (as opposed to the 'imperfect

> one' of, say, the Mason Jar where some oxygen will likely seep in? Seems

> like there is no guarantee that the LAB could wipe out the worst anaerobic

> ones (and I am pretty sure some of those are LAB resistant).

>

>

>

> Of course we're all full of multiple strains of bacteria (and virus too)

and

> in my view it is the overall 'terrain' that matters. But these two

> questions nag at me while I am sipping on my Kombucha (and I do know a

> couple of people who suffer from d-lactate acidosis)

>

>

>

> Cheers

>

> Josie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I read this just yesterday... I think I saw it on Food Renegade? or Nourished

Kitchen. I had never heard about this either. But whatever site it was, she

mentioned the submerging under fat, etc. Basically the article said that the

Pickleit is great, but really not necessary and she got quotes from a few

" fermenting experts " currently out there. She also mentions that open crocks

were used... but I don't know anything about that either. I'll try to find the

post. Just read it on my " feedler " thingy yesterday.

-

>

>

> >

> > By using other vessels which achieved the same environment, usually clay

crocks which were sealed with fat and then buried underground or stored in

caves.

>

> Alyssa, could you please zap a reference (and not one from Sally Fallon) to

the sealing with fat and burying underground? Europe please. I know of no one

who seals with fat. Wax in canning but nothing fermenting in fat. Some meats

are sealed (covered!) with fat and left as well as pemmecin (spelling may be

off) but I have never heard of fat being used to seal, lets say, kraut or

pickles. Or used in any clay/ceramic crock.

>

> Much of Germany, Austria, Russia have A LOT of terrain that would not be

hospitable to get to seawater. Here is a map from 1800's, which is a time I

would assume many people would be preserving in this fashion. You can change

the year on the left hand side too but the land does not change--only the

country!

>

> http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1800/index.html

>

>

> > I can guarantee open crocks were never used by our ancestors...they were

always properly sealed in containers which allowed for off-gassing. Instead of

homemade salt water brine, they used sea water.

>

>

> How would they use sea water in a land locked area or an area lets say, even

50 miles from the ocean? They did not have mass transportation 100 years or

more ago, and I just can't see any farmer trying to make a trip across all sorts

of terrain to get sea water.

>

> Those clay crocks don't have a tight seal. Many were (and still are) made by

hand as well so there are little imperfections in them that make them unique.

They have weights or a plate to hold the goodies under the brine and a lid of

some sort, or a cloth, wood, something to keep bugs/dust/debris from falling in

the crock.

>

> That picklit thing may be a good product but I think someone is making a lot

of money on it. Perhaps it is the easiest and maybe the safest way to do it if

you can't find someone who does the crock method, but I think it can be done in

many ways without a fancy air lock sealing " thingee " .

>

> And only a mason jar of kraut at a time??? Come on, put up a couple gallons!

lol

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here is the story I was referring to, everyone!

http://www.foodrenegade.com/mason-jar-ferments-safe/

> >

> >

> > >

> > > By using other vessels which achieved the same environment, usually clay

crocks which were sealed with fat and then buried underground or stored in

caves.

> >

> > Alyssa, could you please zap a reference (and not one from Sally Fallon) to

the sealing with fat and burying underground? Europe please. I know of no one

who seals with fat. Wax in canning but nothing fermenting in fat. Some meats

are sealed (covered!) with fat and left as well as pemmecin (spelling may be

off) but I have never heard of fat being used to seal, lets say, kraut or

pickles. Or used in any clay/ceramic crock.

> >

> > Much of Germany, Austria, Russia have A LOT of terrain that would not be

hospitable to get to seawater. Here is a map from 1800's, which is a time I

would assume many people would be preserving in this fashion. You can change

the year on the left hand side too but the land does not change--only the

country!

> >

> > http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1800/index.html

> >

> >

> > > I can guarantee open crocks were never used by our ancestors...they were

always properly sealed in containers which allowed for off-gassing. Instead of

homemade salt water brine, they used sea water.

> >

> >

> > How would they use sea water in a land locked area or an area lets say, even

50 miles from the ocean? They did not have mass transportation 100 years or

more ago, and I just can't see any farmer trying to make a trip across all sorts

of terrain to get sea water.

> >

> > Those clay crocks don't have a tight seal. Many were (and still are) made

by hand as well so there are little imperfections in them that make them unique.

They have weights or a plate to hold the goodies under the brine and a lid of

some sort, or a cloth, wood, something to keep bugs/dust/debris from falling in

the crock.

> >

> > That picklit thing may be a good product but I think someone is making a lot

of money on it. Perhaps it is the easiest and maybe the safest way to do it if

you can't find someone who does the crock method, but I think it can be done in

many ways without a fancy air lock sealing " thingee " .

> >

> > And only a mason jar of kraut at a time??? Come on, put up a couple

gallons! lol

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Here is the story I was referring to, everyone!

>

> http://www.foodrenegade.com/mason-jar-ferments-safe/

>

>

Hey ,

I read that too. I still can not find an original reference to the use of

olive, coconut, or fat on the surface of the ferments. And the blog she wrote

does not give one either.

And yeah, at times I am a tad bit anal about getting the probably unimportant

little tidbit of info about something, but I don't believe everything I read and

if it can't be backed up with a source or more, well, I tend to not believe it

as much!

[Guest guest]

I've been reading this thread with great interest because I've been

fermenting in mason jars for 8 years. I use little or no salt and the Body

Ecology culture starter with the freshest vegetables I can get. I did

experiment with using whey as a starter and that worked too.

I have never had a bad batch except one where the carrots were too old.

That was a learning experience that told me how important fresh veggies are.

It is my understanding that lactobacilli are actually naturally on the

vegetables (if organic and fresh) and this is what really starts the

fermenting process.

My ferments are covered in " brine " in the jar and even though there is a

small airspace at the top of the jar (and the lid is on as tight as it can

be), they ferment wonderfully well, produce lots of CO2 (are bubbly), and

after a 2-week period at 68 to 70 degrees turn out very sour and delicious.

I have used the Harsch crock and mason jars for lacto-fermented cucumber

pickles and decided the results were just as good if not better in a mason

jar.

I tend to believe the results of our ancestors were accurate and beneficial

using crocks and other traditional methods and are not harmful. After all,

the country stores of early America had crocks of sauerkraut and dill

pickles that were open to the air. They would not have continued doing this

if people were made sick by their product.

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Paradise

Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 10:24 PM

Subject: Re: New to the group and need help with fermenting

vegetables

>

> Here is the story I was referring to, everyone!

>

> http://www.foodrenegade.com/mason-jar-ferments-safe/

>

>

Hey ,

I read that too. I still can not find an original reference to the use of

olive, coconut, or fat on the surface of the ferments. And the blog she

wrote does not give one either.

And yeah, at times I am a tad bit anal about getting the probably

unimportant little tidbit of info about something, but I don't believe

everything I read and if it can't be backed up with a source or more, well,

I tend to not believe it as much!