Re: To Tom, with Love

[Guest guest]

>Hi, Raven, I wrote that about some children recovering somewhat, but

here's what I said in full:

>

> I just recently had a discussion with a social worker who works in a

> psychiatric hospital and he told me that some children can recover

> somewhat from sexual molestation but others never recover the entire

> rest of their lives and spend their adult years suffering immensely

> and not able to lead a normal, happy life. It is unknown why some are

> so messed up by it, some kind of imprinting at just the 'right' time

> in their development, possibly.

I'm glad you posted about pedophilia because it's a problem. And many

children have been molested by relatives or family friends that were

trusted by the parents or other adults. The statistics are high enough,

yet there are many more that don't come forward and are not known.

>

[Guest guest]

Right okay - I do believe in being open concerning sexual matters

with my son - and my parents were with me - but this did not mean

walking around naked. We believed in being decent - but I am no prude

either. It can be offensive to others to parade around naked and is

considered indecent exposure by the law; also the message that it

could give to young children that it is okay to display their body

and such a message could be taken advantage of.

I teach my son that his body is his own and certain parts are private

for him alone, with possible exception if there is a medical reason

that a doctor/medical practitioner may want to examine him.

> > >

> > " I see

> > > nothing wrong with how this woman lived her life when she lived

> > next to

> > > you. If she later choose to change that's her choice but I

don't

> > get the

> > > reason for your story. "

> >

> > The part of Gemma's lifestyle that really worried me is naked

people

> > in the house, including naked children. Orgy? And what part did

the

> > children play?

> > children can recover

> > somewhat from sexual molestation

>

> This is so foolish. Making an assumption that the children are

involved

> in the " orgies " is just plain ignorant.

>

> Children growing up in a household where nudity is a common

accepted

> practice will fare much better than those growing up in the

standard

> North American prudity. Nudity is healthy. Our obsession with sex

as a

> tool to sell everything from cars to drugs is not.

>

> Most, probably 99.9% of people involved in so called orgies shield

their

> children from that. Most parents in fact go way to far overboard in

> hiding anything sexual from their children. That's unhealthy and

harms

> children. Children who grow up in homes where sexuality is not some

> taboo subject to be hidden at all cost grow up with a healthier

attitude

> about sexuality.

>

> Orgies and sexual molestation have nothing in common and are almost

> never found together. Naturally I can not speak specifically about

> Gemma's case but there are far more legitimate things to worry

about.

>

> Red

>

[Guest guest]

" Love is the only " weapon " anyone can use. "

Wow - I was just thinking of love as a weapon the other day - but it

is not a bad weapon - but it is certainly the most powerful :-)

must be getting emotional in my old age :-) don't worry I'm sure this

world will find a way to kick me back down :-(

>

> The shame that comes from being out of control, doing something

> harmful especially when children are involved can prevent someone

> from seeking help. Fear of being " found out " or that the

> authorities will see your an unfit parent and take away your

> children. All the negative feelings that leads people to drink,

> smoke, overinduldge in anything... these same feelings keep a

person

> from seeking help. Love is the only " weapon " anyone can use.

>

> Kim

>

[Guest guest]

> Children growing up in a household where nudity is a common accepted

> practice will fare much better than those growing up in the standard

> North American prudity. Nudity is healthy. Our obsession with sex as a

> tool to sell everything from cars to drugs is not.

>

> Really now? I don't know anyone who hasn't gone on to hae a regular life that

wasn't a nudist. Rather the couple of nudists that I have known were more

disturbed than most.

In the houses where I grew up, my mother and her subsequnt partners

were regularly nude. (They did not have sex in front of the children.)

My siblings and I were often nude in one another's presence even as

teenagers. As a result, I'm not uncomfortable around nude people, and

I'm not uncomfortable being nude as so many people seem to be. I also

do not experience any increase in sexual arrousal simply because

someone is nude. My children are regularly nude by their choices.

My husband tells the story of the one time ever he saw his mother half

nude when he unintentionally entered the occupied bathroom. She

shouted at him, and frantically covered herself. Afterward, she

criticized him for not knocking. He was seven years old. He carried

shame for decades after the incident which influenced his perception

of women.

When his mother visits us, her discomfort with my nude or semi-nude

children is evident by her complaints. She attempts to shame my young

children, but they don't understand except that their grandma is

upset. I get so angry.

I believe that taboos such as the one against nudity actually create

objectification of bodies and the resultant cultural problems.

-sara

http://motheranarchy.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

" My husband tells the story of the one time ever he saw his mother half

> nude when he unintentionally entered the occupied bathroom. She

> shouted at him, and frantically covered herself. Afterward, she

> criticized him for not knocking. He was seven years old. He carried

> shame for decades after the incident which influenced his perception

> of women. "

Here's where I think our puritanical roots are damaging. My Iranian

friend said that when Ayatollah Khomeini came to power he criticized

womens' dress and said they were the cause of rapes and that he would

cut their breasts off if they didn't cover up.

But like was mentioned by another poster, the sight of a naked body

turns many people on. I don't think a lot of women realize when when

they are dressing to fit a popular idea or to be attractive to men what

effect they are having on them. (And what's with the hoochee outfits

for 7 year olds?!)I also want to be noticed as me first, not a woman

and would hate to have men staring at my body. I dress modestly.

[Guest guest]

What is a 'hoochee outfit'? is this an American thing? I have not

heard of them.

>

> " My husband tells the story of the one time ever he saw his mother

half

> > nude when he unintentionally entered the occupied bathroom. She

> > shouted at him, and frantically covered herself. Afterward, she

> > criticized him for not knocking. He was seven years old. He

carried

> > shame for decades after the incident which influenced his

perception

> > of women. "

>

> Here's where I think our puritanical roots are damaging. My Iranian

> friend said that when Ayatollah Khomeini came to power he

criticized

> womens' dress and said they were the cause of rapes and that he

would

> cut their breasts off if they didn't cover up.

>

> But like was mentioned by another poster, the sight of a naked body

> turns many people on. I don't think a lot of women realize when

when

> they are dressing to fit a popular idea or to be attractive to men

what

> effect they are having on them. (And what's with the hoochee

outfits

> for 7 year olds?!)I also want to be noticed as me first, not a

woman

> and would hate to have men staring at my body. I dress modestly.

>

[Guest guest]

Okay, thanks for explanation - I was thinking it was some kind of

outfit, a labelled item of clothing or something :-)

>

> LOL, a hoochee (or probably hoochie) is a loose woman.

[Guest guest]

One thing you might not be taking into consideration though is that

men think differently than women do. Your average 20 year old male

might thing about sex 5 or 6 times an hour. Even a strip of exposed

flesh when a woman's shirt pulls out of her waistband is enough to

get him sexually aroused.

Certainly women cannot be blamed for such a triffling thing as an

accidentally exposed piece of flesh, and certainly a man should be

able to reign in his passions. Yet some men can't.

This in no way places the blame on women for any sort of sexual

attack by a lustful male. But when a woman deliberately wears

something revealing, a man who refuses to exercise control or has

problems reigning himself in MIGHT be more inclined to strike.

Tom

Administrator

I think that the way one carries her body probably contributes even

more to a sexually forward image than her clothing, not to say

clothing doesn't carry meaning, too.

-sara

[Guest guest]

I thought there was a rule against sexually explicit descriptions here? Does

that rule not apply to all? The anatomical details of Gemma's nether regions

was a little more information than I was expecting on this list.

I also don't think it is factually/statistically correct to make assumptions

about ALL women based on TWO experiences, even of these were detrimental to

you personally. Some PEOPLE lack both ethics and remorse, some lack the

self-control to resist doing something wrong but feel bad about it

afterwards. That is an individual thing, not necessarily tied to gender,

even if female predators can to be as bad as male.

Inger

Re: To Tom, with Love

" Tom - do you believe that your childhood contacts with Gemma harmed

you in any way? "

An interesting question.

I will first answer your question with another question, and then

with a statement.

Question: How normal is it for a 30 something year old woman to

spread her legs and show a young boy not just her vagina, but her

clitoris, urethra and anus and finger the same for two or three

minutes as he watches?

Now my statement: It seems to me that Gemma was pretty matter of

fact and scientific despite the prolonged anatomy lesson. My

wonderful Aspie memory recalls her as being thoroughly bored and

neutral toned, but perhaps this was because she was high.

She didn't appear to get a rise out of it anyway, and she only

showed me her below the belt regions in detail just the one time,

although she was always sunbathing nude.

I didn't get a rise out of it either, at least not in a sexual way.

But at the same time, I knew what she was showing me was forbidden

knowledge and so I was excited to see and see as much as I could. On

some level, she must have know this.

The greater lesson I learned was from my female baby sitter. I was

not the only boy she tried to molest. There was a friend of mine she

tried to molest also. probably other boys too. The fact that my baby

sitter had to get high before she molested us coupled with the fact

that Gemma said pot lowers inhibitions (smoking pot was the only way

she could have sex with men other than her husband) leads me to

believe my baby sitter knew that the molestation was wrong but she

was going to do it regardless of her inbuit inhibitions.

Thus I realized early on in my life that women can be sexual

predators, with the difference being that they are more cold and

calculating than men are in that they are willing to throw off any

guilt they might experience in order to get what they are after. Men

seem not to have such guilt when they molest.

Recently there have been many news stories about female teachers

molesting male students. There always seems to be a public outcry

that a WOMAN would do such a thing, but I think sexual predation by

women on young boys and girls is a lot more common than most people

think. And no, I have no statistics to PROVE that is the case.

Tom

Administrator

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[Guest guest]

" I thought there was a rule against sexually explicit descriptions

here? Does that rule not apply to all? The anatomical details of

Gemma's nether regions was a little more information than I was

expecting on this list. "

Kate seemed to be implying that I was going off the deep end about

Gemma's pot use from a response I gave to Rainbow which I felt was a

silly assertion. So I answered her post using a desciption that could

leave no doubt in her mind why it was I had a problem with what Gemma

did.

Additionally, read back a little and you can find a place where Gemma

expressed remorse and I forgave her for what she did.

" I also don't think it is factually/statistically correct to make

assumptions about ALL women based on TWO experiences, even of these

were detrimental to you personally. "

I said SOME women are CAPABLE of predation. Not all women.

" Some PEOPLE lack both ethics and remorse, some lack the self-control

to resist doing something wrong but feel bad about it afterwards. That

is an individual thing, not necessarily tied to gender, even if female

predators can to be as bad as male. "

I agree.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

I find it hard to believe that seeing naked people causes (or

increases the risk of) serious mental illness. If that held true, then

wouldn't many of the cultures in Polynesia, Africa, and other parts of

the world (especially before the arrival of nudity-tabooed peoples

from elsewhere) consist entirely/mostly/in large proportion of the

mentally ill?

Yours for better letters,

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