Re: To Tom, with Love

[Guest guest]

>

Thanks for your insights, Inger. We humans have a difficult time with

moderation and balance and what seems okay for one harms another.

Before Tom talked about his friend who was a closet alcoholic, my

husband and I were just discussing how bad this hidden alcoholism

problem is. It's much worse than is known. People who are prone to

alcholism (and there are many) can't moderate themselves so it might

almost be better to outlaw alcohol, except that Prohibition showed

the problems with that--it's a beverage (in some countries safer than

drinking the water) and too much a part of peoples' cultures.

We need to also take EXTREME care with legal drugs, often the

chemical version of a natural drug, which makes them more dangerous.

> " The Blue-Orange conservative types[...] "

This is interesting--I've actually known conservative types who said

blue and orange were their favorite colors. I wondered, why blue and

orange? It seemed unusual.

How do you know what color you are? Beliefs and personality? Favorite

color? Aura? My husband's favorite color is green and he has a green

aura and fits this description of yours: " But we Green types are also

needed to keep ideals and playfulness alive, to

> push overly restrictive limits and keep the Blues from becoming so

rigid

> that they strangle the life & fun out of both themselves and

everyone else

> with their zeal. "

>

> " So, why not live and let live, folks? Accept who you are and accept

others

> as THEY are. (No amount of arguing is ever going to change another

person,

> anyway.) "

I think God put the different personality types in the genes in

different combinations just like he put so many different flowers on

earth. I think it's interesting to find the different patterns which

are complex and many--I hope to one day find a larger pattern that

has smaller patterns contained in each larger pattern.

[Guest guest]

My mother is an alcoholic, but most of the time she is a " quiet drunk. "

I cannot stand the taste of beer and don't like most wines, but the

hard stuff like gin and vodka taste good to me. That's why I skip it

entirely except for once or twice a year. I know if I drank it too

often, I would get hooked.

Also, I find the creative juices flow when I drink. Some of the best

material I have ever written was stuff I wrote when I was drunk. So to

avoid going the Hemmingway route I decided if it was a choice between

drinking in order to write and NOT drinking not being able to write,

I'd just stop writing. That's why I haven't produced much for the past

few years.

Alcohol in its hardest form ought to be banned. I think liquids that

naturally ferment (wines) and beers are probably okay for moderate and

careful consumption. Wines in particular have shown some degree of

health benefit.

My personal preference would be to ban any type of alcohol that people

drink.

Tom

Administrator

Before Tom talked about his friend who was a closet alcoholic, my

husband and I were just discussing how bad this hidden alcoholism

problem is. It's much worse than is known. People who are prone to

alcholism (and there are many) can't moderate themselves so it might

almost be better to outlaw alcohol, except that Prohibition showed

the problems with that--it's a beverage (in some countries safer than

drinking the water) and too much a part of peoples' cultures.

[Guest guest]

Anything Gemma did I forgave her for, and generally when I reach the

point where I can forgive someone, it means not only do I not hold

grudges anymore, it means I don't dwell on any negative emotions

having to do with the person I am forgiving.

I am just pleased Gemma found God. It was a good ending to a journey

that initially began on the wrong path.

Tom

Administrator

> Tom: " When I was young........... "

I'm so sorry! I had the most incredibly 'normal' upbringing.

All those things you mention were never a part of my childhood, nor

where they ever even spoken of.

[Guest guest]

>>"My mother is an alcoholic, but most of the time she is a "quiet drunk."> > I cannot stand the taste of beer and don't like most wines, but the > hard stuff like gin and vodka taste good to me. That's why I skip it > entirely except for once or twice a year. I know if I drank it too > often, I would get hooked."

My mother, her sister and her father were/are alcoholics but I don't think any of us children have a problem with it. I don't like how alcohol makes me feel at all, mentally or physically. It makes me depressed and feel sick. I can get hangover from more than one drink. I love good beers and good red wines but can only drink one glass of each once a week. So I can't relate to the desire or addiction of alcohol but I see that it can be very strong.

I can't handle the effects of most drugs and don't like how they make me feel (unless I'm in physical pain and it makes the pain go away!) So I could never relate to the desire for drugs and their effects. If one takes them for escape, I think it feels worse to come back to the problem after the escape. It hits like a depressing ton of bricks. Better to try and deal with the problem and work through the feelings associated with the problem.

I think many or possibly most people have a tendency toward extremes or addiction and pick something, it's just that some end up being addicted to a harmful drug and really mess themselves up. I used to get angry with my ex-mother-in-law because she had a self-righteous attitude about alcohol and drugs but she had a food addiction. Balance is something we should all keep in the forefront of our sights.

" Also, I find the creative juices flow when I drink. Some of the best > material I have ever written was stuff I wrote when I was drunk. So to > avoid going the Hemmingway route I decided if it was a choice between > drinking in order to write and NOT drinking not being able to write, > I'd just stop writing. That's why I haven't produced much for the past > few years."

Wow, that just shows how different we all are. It would stifle creativity for me. Caffeine makes me creative. (But I can't handle caffeine either!)

(I never found Hemingway to be that creative but that might just be me.)>

[Guest guest]

environmental1st2003 wrote:

> Perhaps you feel that I am coming down on people too hard lately. I

> will share with you a story that explains a few things. (This one is

> not for sensitive ears, so if anyone has them, they might want to

> skip the rest of this post.)

>

Gee I read this post in it's entirety, I found nothing sensitive except

for the lame concept of religious people having all the answers. I see

nothing wrong with how this woman lived her life when she lived next to

you. If she later choose to change that's her choice but I don't get the

reason for your story. Christianity is just like all other believes. If

you believe it then live it. If you live what you believe it is good and

you are on the right track for you. I could not live the Christian way.

I was born and raised in a very strict, much stricter than any Catholic

and I always knew that it was not to be my path. The earliest memory I

have of anything is knowing that the religious society I was raised in

was wrong, very, very wrong for me.

I do not try to push my spirituality on anyone else and I resent anyone

else preaching theirs to me. Live what you want or believe but leave me

out of it. I don't think this topic has a legitimate place on any aspie

list.

Red

[Guest guest]

greebohere wrote:

> A friend is someone who tries to take away that hollow feeling

> and fill it up with true love.

No friend can ever take away someone's hollow heeling. That is something

we all have to fill from within ourselves. There is no other way. That

is true spirituality.

Red

[Guest guest]

He was innovative for his time, eliminating fluff in literature for

the sake of meaning in short choppy sentences. Hemmingway seems

boring by today's standards because most modern literature is

written in a style which is similar to the one that he created.

He needed alcohol to write.

An English Professor in college said that shortly after his suicide,

someone openned the closet door in his office and it was filled

floor to ceiling with empty hard-liquor bottles which came spilling

out in a tumble of crashing and smashing glass.

I have no idea if that story is really true or not, but by all

accounts, the people who were closest to him knew that he was a

heavy drinker and that he needed it to write. If he didn;t drink, he

could not write.

Tom

Administrator

(I never found Hemingway to be that creative but that might just be

me.)

[Guest guest]

>

" I see

> nothing wrong with how this woman lived her life when she lived

next to

> you. If she later choose to change that's her choice but I don't

get the

> reason for your story. "

The part of Gemma's lifestyle that really worried me is naked people

in the house, including naked children. Orgy? And what part did the

children play?

I just recently had a discussion with a social worker who works in a

psychiatric hospital and he told me that some children can recover

somewhat from sexual molestation but others never recover the entire

rest of their lives and spend their adult years suffering immensely

and not able to lead a normal, happy life. It is unknown why some are

so messed up by it, some kind of imprinting at just the 'right' time

in their development, possibly.

[Guest guest]

>

> He was innovative for his time, eliminating fluff in literature for

> the sake of meaning in short choppy sentences. Hemmingway seems

> boring by today's standards because most modern literature is

> written in a style which is similar to the one that he created.

Oh. Thanks for the insight. The forerunners don't always get the

credit. It was partly his style that I didn't like but mostly it was

him. I find I have to like the person that is writing as well as their

writing. His writings gave me an empty, stark depressing feeling and

then he wrote about seedy stuff. He seemed very hopeless and unhappy to

me.

[Guest guest]

It probably doesn't. But, I and my religion are intertwined, and so my

religion will creep in from time to time.

Tom

Administrator

I don't think this topic has a legitimate place on any aspie

list.

[Guest guest]

It probably doesn't. But, I and my religion are intertwined, and so my

religion will creep in from time to time.

Tom

Administrator

I don't think this topic has a legitimate place on any aspie

list.

[Guest guest]

I wrote it.

And I do believe friendshii in and of itself can take away the

hollow feeling. Friendship is a form of love, in my opinion.

Tom

Administrator

> > A friend is someone who tries to take away that hollow feeling

> > and fill it up with true love.

>

> No friend can ever take away someone's hollow heeling. That is

something we all have to fill from within ourselves. There is no

other way.

That is true spirituality.

>

> Red

[Guest guest]

I wrote it.

And I do believe friendshii in and of itself can take away the

hollow feeling. Friendship is a form of love, in my opinion.

Tom

Administrator

> > A friend is someone who tries to take away that hollow feeling

> > and fill it up with true love.

>

> No friend can ever take away someone's hollow heeling. That is

something we all have to fill from within ourselves. There is no

other way.

That is true spirituality.

>

> Red

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/19/2006 10:15:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, acsnag@... writes:

Children growing up in a household where nudity is a common accepted practice will fare much better than those growing up in the standard North American prudity. Nudity is healthy. Our obsession with sex as a tool to sell everything from cars to drugs is not.

Really now? I don't know anyone who hasn't gone on to hae a regular life that wasn't a nudist. Rather the couple of nudists that I have known were more disturbed than most.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/19/2006 11:42:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

My experience has been that if you allow people to have drugs, the majority will not just use them but abuse them. If you allow a sexual revolution to take place, HIV, Hepatitis, and all sorts of STDS and unwanted pregnancies will result. And if you trust a naked adult around a kid, that trust is almost always broken. Adults who are "free thinkers" seem to be like children -whose eyes are bigger than their stomachs when they see good food. In other words, many adults simply have no self-control.

I would agree with this. STDs are at record highs around the developed world, especially amongst teenagers and the rates are still climbing. In this area, diseases once thought pushed to near eradication are making a comeback, particularly syphillis. It amazes me that even though this is public knowledge, many people continue to to fool around and then act amazed when they get infected. Even in a small town that I often visit down in Alabama, STDs are prevelant amongst a certain population, one that is loose with its sexual mores while they are non-existant in the others.

[Guest guest]

mikecarrie01 wrote:

>

> >

> " I see

> > nothing wrong with how this woman lived her life when she lived

> next to

> > you. If she later choose to change that's her choice but I don't

> get the

> > reason for your story. "

>

> The part of Gemma's lifestyle that really worried me is naked people

> in the house, including naked children. Orgy? And what part did the

> children play?

> children can recover

> somewhat from sexual molestation

This is so foolish. Making an assumption that the children are involved

in the " orgies " is just plain ignorant.

Children growing up in a household where nudity is a common accepted

practice will fare much better than those growing up in the standard

North American prudity. Nudity is healthy. Our obsession with sex as a

tool to sell everything from cars to drugs is not.

Most, probably 99.9% of people involved in so called orgies shield their

children from that. Most parents in fact go way to far overboard in

hiding anything sexual from their children. That's unhealthy and harms

children. Children who grow up in homes where sexuality is not some

taboo subject to be hidden at all cost grow up with a healthier attitude

about sexuality.

Orgies and sexual molestation have nothing in common and are almost

never found together. Naturally I can not speak specifically about

Gemma's case but there are far more legitimate things to worry about.

Red

[Guest guest]

environmental1st2003 wrote:

> It was an orgy. I doubt the children were involved, but obviously

> nothing was hidden from them either.

There is nothing obvious about this. It probably was very well hidden

from them.

Red

[Guest guest]

>

>> " This is so foolish. Making an assumption that the children are

involved

> in the " orgies " is just plain ignorant. "

SO foolish? And PLAIN ignorant? Why such absolutes? Don't you know to

stay away from terms like 'always' or 'never' because they are almost

never correct?

If you would like to make broad assumptions about the world, and this

particular situation, that is your preorgative. I, however, would

rather err on the side of caution when it comes to childrens' safety,

especially considering the long term and often permanent effects of

sexual molestation on children. Have you ever known a child or adult

who was sexually molested? I have, and it's extremely sad.

" Naturally I can not speak specifically about

> Gemma's case "

Then why are you making assumptions?

" but there are far more legitimate things to worry about. "

What do you worry about? I can tell that you are hurt and angry and

that's why you respond so strongly and swing like a pendulum to the

other extreme, hopefully we can help you feel better and fall back

toward the center.

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Most parents in fact go way to far overboard in hiding anything

sexual from their children. That's unhealthy and harms children. "

I disagree, and I will explain why in a moment.

" Children who grow up in homes where sexuality is not some taboo

subject to be hidden at all cost grow up with a healthier attitude

about sexuality. "

I disagree. They simply become de-sensitized to it and grow up

seeking more intense sexual pleasure.

What that means is that people tend to grow up placing more emphasis

on the intensity of sex rather than on the intimacy conjoured up

during sex with the person they are having sex with.

One can argue that there is nothing wrong with sex for sex's sake

between two consenting adults, yet that is rather hollow isn't it,

using each other just for sex. it's sort of like masturbating only

with someone else there as a sort of live doll.

Wouldn't it be much better if people were taught the BEAUTY of sex,

meaning the wonderful feeling that can be gotten by two people

unified in love and marriage sharing their bodies with one another

in a sexual way?

I have the feeling that some people reading this aren't going to get

what I am talking about. They will label me a prude. This has

nothing to do with prudery. I think for people to understand what I

mean by what I have written here, you would have had to have

experienced sex in a truly loving relationship. Once you have done

so, sex for sex's sake seems so second-rate. Sort of like getting a

cheap hamburger at Mcs instead at a really good steak at a

steakhouse.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

No, I could see through the screen in the side window of Gemma's

house. There were men and women having sex in there and there were

boys and girls running around inside and outside the house. Some were

clothed, some were not.

Tom

Administrator

> It was an orgy. I doubt the children were involved, but obviously

> nothing was hidden from them either.

There is nothing obvious about this. It probably was very well hidden

from them.

Red

[Guest guest]

Incidentally Red, I just wanted to make a point.

My own life has been one where I have wavered and vascillated

between various morals and ethics. I have been a so-called free-

thinker and have circulated within some very liberal crowds in my

time.

Doing so is ultimately what resulted in my conservativism.

The net result of my socializing with folks of many types is that

liberal people like Gemma and the company she keeps ALWAYS

disappointed me even though I had intitially been willing to give

such people the benefit of the doubt.

My experience has been that if you allow people to have drugs, the

majority will not just use them but abuse them. If you allow a

sexual revolution to take place, HIV, Hepatitis, and all sorts of

STDS and unwanted pregnancies will result. And if you trust a naked

adult around a kid, that trust is almost always broken.

Adults who are " free thinkers " seem to be like children -whose eyes

are bigger than their stomachs when they see good food. In other

words, many adults simply have no self-control.

You can try to argue otherwise, or say that you and people you know

must be the exception, and maybe you and others you know ARE the

exception, but years and years of bad things happening over and over

again as the result of society's newly discoerved and

acquired " freedoms " has led me to believe that what people REALLY

want is free license for self-gratification without ramifications.

And my experience with confronting such individuals about their own

belief systems is that they are either:

A) Filled with hate

or

Filled with self-loathing

or

C) Filled with some kind of inexplicable definace, as though by

their very behavior they are trying to make some sort of grandiose

political statement

or

D) Simply have a lack of presence, as though they really are not

grounded in reality, or as though they don't beleive they exist

within it.

or

E) All of the above.

The favorite rebuffs these people have to any inquiries or comments

regarding their lifestyles are invariably assumptions that the

inquirer or commentor is

A) A prude

Religious

C) On a " moral high horse "

D) A political conservative

E) And someone who has never tried drugs or used alcohol in excess.

This is prejudicial on their part and indicative of their narrow

mindedness. It suggests that they have compartmentalized people

into " one of us " or " the enemy " and the enemy. Really what

their " enemy " is, is someone who

A) Practices prudence and responsibility when choosing sexual

partners and engaging in sex with them.

Belives in a higher power.

C) Has carefully thought ought morals, values and ethics that not

only work for him, but work for others as well.

D) Votes for the best candidate for the job regardless of the

candidate's political affiliation, and

E) Has formed his opinions about drugs and alcohol either from using

and abusing them or from observing someone else who has used them or

abused them.

The fact of the matter is, Red, you will never convince me that

certain people who try to fight for liberalism are acting in the

bebst interest of everybody. Rather, they are trying to get society

to condone their own shortcomings which they are too weak to

overcome alone.

Also, some liberals are HAPPY the way they are and don;t WANT to

change. That's why they are so vocal. They are like Aspies in this

respect. " Don't try and changeme! I was BORN this way. "

All fine and dandy except for the fact that personal choices are

precisely that: CHOICES. You can choose to do anything you want and

have not identity except as someone who is a complete egotist with

no self-control, or you can look outside yourself and try to do

what's right for your own mind and body and everyone else's mind and

body.

This may seem like a rant, but it's not.

It's a preventative post to head off an impending flame war at the

pass.

I am not interested in the assertion of egotism and a lack of self-

control in the guise of " rights " and " liberties. " So please don't go

that route.

Think first before posting.

Tom

Administrator

> It was an orgy. I doubt the children were involved, but obviously

> nothing was hidden from them either.

There is nothing obvious about this. It probably was very well hidden

from them.

Red

[Guest guest]

The extended period between when one is offered help and when one

actually hits rock bottom and seeks help is entirely the result of

A) The ego refusing to believe that a problem actually exists,

The shame the ego feels of having to admit one is in over one's

head, and

C) The shame of having to accept help from other people.

The helper cannot be blamed for anything. And blame should not be

transfered to the person who intervenes. The enitre predicament, its

duration, and the resulting consequences are the fault of the one who

experiencing it.

That's what I learned in therapy anyway.

Tom

Administrator

-- In , VISIGOTH@... wrote:

>In a message dated 4/19/2006 10:15:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,

acsnag@... writes:

Children growing up in a household where nudity is a common accepted

practice will fare much better than those growing up in the standard

North American prudity. Nudity is healthy. Our obsession with sex as a

tool to sell everything from cars to drugs is not.

Really now? I don't know anyone who hasn't gone on to hae a regular

life that wasn't a nudist. Rather the couple of nudists that I have

known were more disturbed than most.

[Guest guest]

The shame that comes from being out of control, doing something

harmful especially when children are involved can prevent someone

from seeking help. Fear of being " found out " or that the

authorities will see your an unfit parent and take away your

children. All the negative feelings that leads people to drink,

smoke, overinduldge in anything... these same feelings keep a person

from seeking help. Love is the only " weapon " anyone can use.

Kim

>

>

> >In a message dated 4/19/2006 10:15:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> acsnag@... writes:

>

> Children growing up in a household where nudity is a common

accepted

> practice will fare much better than those growing up in the

standard

> North American prudity. Nudity is healthy. Our obsession with sex

as a

> tool to sell everything from cars to drugs is not.

>

> Really now? I don't know anyone who hasn't gone on to hae a

regular

> life that wasn't a nudist. Rather the couple of nudists that I

have

> known were more disturbed than most.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think we all make mistakes.

The Lord knows I have made them.

What I don't understand is why people choose to keep on making the

same mistakes over and over again.

Some people see every woman or every man as an opportunity for sex,

but I've always thought of sexual morals and ethics (and ALL morals

and ethics ofr that matter) in the same way I see finances. If you

pay cash for everything and abstain from buying things you cannot

afford, there is no interest to pay and you don't go into debt.

If you don't have sex, you don't need to worry about the

consequences. If you do have sex, you can POSSIBLY avoid the

possible consequences by using condoms and seeing that the woman you

have sex with is also using birth control.

Some people say that " being responsible " takes the fun out of sex.

That's true. I will grant them that. But there is far less fun to be

had if you've got a disease or an unexpected pregnancy on your

hands.

If people these days can have sex without worries, then I believe

those people are in complete denial of the downside (consequences),

in which case, both parties are in a mental disposition that is

unsuitable for handling the responsibilites that come with having

sex.

Tom

Administrator

I would agree with this. STDs are at record highs around the

developed world, especially amongst teenagers and the rates are

still climbing. In this area, diseases once thought pushed to near

eradication are making a comeback, particularly syphillis. It amazes

me that even though this is public knowledge, many people continue

to to fool around and then act amazed when they get infected. Even

in a small town that I often visit down in Alabama, STDs are

prevelant amongst a certain population, one that is loose with its

sexual mores while they are non-existant in the others.

[Guest guest]

I understand.

My point is that when push comes to shove, it is hard for a person

that truly cares to sit by and let the person who is in the middle

of it suffer. It's cruel in a way.

We ALL at one time or another have found ourselves in predicaments

of our own making, this is why when we see someone else who is

hurting, we have a natural desire to help them out.

Perhaps if we all could allow ourselves to be helped, it could save

a lot of grief.

Tom

Administrator

The shame that comes from being out of control, doing something

harmful especially when children are involved can prevent someone

from seeking help. Fear of being " found out " or that the

authorities will see your an unfit parent and take away your

children. All the negative feelings that leads people to drink,

smoke, overinduldge in anything... these same feelings keep a person

from seeking help. Love is the only " weapon " anyone can use.

Kim