Re: Witches, druids, shamans, et al

[Guest guest]

" It's not like we tell anyone to be scared or something. "

Then you should only speak on behalf of those you represent as opposed

to " all " those who practice what you call non-Christian spirituality.

Raven

[Guest guest]

" It's not like we tell anyone to be scared or something. "

Then you should only speak on behalf of those you represent as opposed

to " all " those who practice what you call non-Christian spirituality.

Raven

[Guest guest]

> Then you should only speak on behalf of those you represent as opposed

> to " all " those who practice what you call non-Christian spirituality.

Uhm, I don't speak FOR anyone, I speak ABOUT the people I know. I

don't think I ever mentioned the word " all " anywhere..?

I'm confused... I can hardly expect people from my groups to collect

signatures to post here to show how many people fear the Christians?

And what good would that do? Asides, I'm perfectly authorized to speak

" on behalf " of my tradition, and my friends would expect me to speak

on their behalf any time where such general matters are concerned.

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

" Asides, I'm perfectly authorized to speak " on behalf "

of my tradition, and my friends would expect me to speak on their

behalf any time where such general matters are concerned. "

And you do not have permission to speak on behalf of those who have

not granted you such liberties with their words. You do not have

the right to taint all shamans and non-Christian Spiritual people

with your brush of perceptions.

You still haven't answered how Aboriginal Spirituality and Australia

are tied together in your previous post.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Raven, in the rest of the world the phrase " aboriginal " is most commonly

used about the Australian Aboriginals specifically, even if it is

technically correct that any native people are aboriginal too (e.g. the

Saame of of Norhern Scandinavia).

We Europeans are most used to the term " Native American " when talking of the

people you represent. Arania/Lwaxy is from Germany, if I remember correctly.

Thus, the linguistic confusion.

Inger

Re: Witches, druids, shamans, et al

" It's not like we tell anyone to be scared or something. "

Then you should only speak on behalf of those you represent as opposed

to " all " those who practice what you call non-Christian spirituality.

Raven

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

Raven, in the rest of the world the phrase " aboriginal " is most commonly

used about the Australian Aboriginals specifically, even if it is

technically correct that any native people are aboriginal too (e.g. the

Saame of of Norhern Scandinavia).

We Europeans are most used to the term " Native American " when talking of the

people you represent. Arania/Lwaxy is from Germany, if I remember correctly.

Thus, the linguistic confusion.

Inger

Re: Witches, druids, shamans, et al

" It's not like we tell anyone to be scared or something. "

Then you should only speak on behalf of those you represent as opposed

to " all " those who practice what you call non-Christian spirituality.

Raven

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

Aboriginals in Canada are members of the Six First Nations. We do

not use the term Native Americans. We are who we are ... not

Australians, not Americans.

Raven

" It's not like we tell anyone to be scared or

something. "

>

> Then you should only speak on behalf of those you represent as

opposed

> to " all " those who practice what you call non-Christian

spirituality.

>

> Raven

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

support and

> acceptance. Everyone is valued.

>

> Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

>

[Guest guest]

How about Native Canadians? ;-)

Inger

Re: Witches, druids, shamans, et al

Aboriginals in Canada are members of the Six First Nations. We do

not use the term Native Americans. We are who we are ... not

Australians, not Americans.

Raven

" It's not like we tell anyone to be scared or

something. "

>

> Then you should only speak on behalf of those you represent as

opposed

> to " all " those who practice what you call non-Christian

spirituality.

>

> Raven

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

support and

> acceptance. Everyone is valued.

>

> Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

>

[Guest guest]

Raven:

> I've never known an Aboriginal in Canada who referred to himself or

> herself as a Native Canadian. I've known a lot of white guys who

> are Canadian who refer to themselves as Native Canadians though. ;-)

So you are a Canadian Aboriginal? I find that quite interesting. Do you

know more about the background? Does that make you Amerindian,

Inuit or something else? Sorry if I'm ignorant.

Leif

[Guest guest]

Now you are splitting hairs, Raven...

> Perhaps you forgot post 21909 in which you stated in response to

> 's question, " Who are the 'many of us' you refer to? " "

I told her exactly from what groups the many come. Nothing at all

wrong with that.

> When you speak in such broad terms, you pretend to speak for ALL who

> are not the Christians whom you accuse of such actions.

No, I do not. If I do, I specifically use the word ALL. I have not

used that word. I know better who I mean, that I am sure of. Sorry,

but it is absolutely silly and nonsense to expect me to go through my

groups and count who is who and then post numbers.

> You can only speak for yourself and for those who have granted you

> permission to speak on their behalf.

And that I do. Sorry, but if you cannot see that then it is not my

problem. Logic alone dictates I was talking about my groups,

especially since I nowhere said ALL.

> And you do not have permission to speak on behalf of those who have

> not granted you such liberties with their words. You do not have

> the right to taint all shamans and non-Christian Spiritual people

> with your brush of perceptions.

And as I said, I didn't, and it's quite exhausting to have to repeat

the obvious. You are interpreting my words according to your own

feelings. But that is not supposed to be my problem.

> You still haven't answered how Aboriginal Spirituality and Australia

> are tied together in your previous post.

Aboriginals are predominantly in Australia, no? So since we don't have

many, if any, people from Australia it's logical to assume we do not

have many, if any, Aboriginals. And unless your people's spirituality

has spread to Germany, which I really don't think it has save the

occassional traveler, I don't really need to look at the Germans. The

topic has also not popped up in any posts on my forums that I can

remember.

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

I am Métis of Abenaki descent and very aware of my ancestors and the

role my people have played in the history of the World. Thank you

for asking.

Raven

>

> Raven:

> > I've never known any Aboriginal in Canada who referred to

himself or

> > herself as a Native Canadian. I've known a lot of white guys

who

> > are Canadian who refer to themselves as Native Canadians

though. ;-)

>

> So you are a Canadian Aboriginal? I find that quite interesting.

Do you

> know more about the background? Does that make you Amerindian,

> Inuit or something else? Sorry if I'm ignorant.

>

> Leif

>

[Guest guest]

Re:

> What has Aboriginal Spirituality got to do with Australians

> specifically?

In many English-speaking nations - e.g., the USA and Australia -

" Aboriginal " with a capital " A " means, specifically, " Australian

aboriginal. "

In Canada, as I recall, " Aboriginal " with a capital " A " means what the

USA currently calls " Native American. "

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

I wasn't even aware that the term is used in any other connection.

Interesting. We do have Native Americans on some of the boards, but

they insisted on being called just that - probably because in German,

the term " Indianer " is used, which is different enough from Inder

(Indian) to not want a new term.

Oh, and the German translation for aboriginals (Eingeborene) as a

general term has a bad taste because it was and partly still is used

as a negative term close to babarians. Instead we now use

Einheimische, I am not sure if there is a seperate English

translation right now.

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

" Aboriginals are predominantly in Australia, no? "

You are not very educated if you believe that Aboriginals are

predominantly in Australia. Do not make assumptions based on

minimal knowledge of facts. Open a book once in a while and broaden

your knowledge base or ask questions of those who are apt to know

the facts.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Very interesting. In Swedish, we also have the difference between " indier "

(from India) and " indianer " (Native Americans).

" Einheimishe " would be " native " in English. ( " Inhemsk " in Swedish.

Aboriginal is " urbefolkning " in Swedish.)

Inger

Re: Witches, druids, shamans, et al

I wasn't even aware that the term is used in any other connection.

Interesting. We do have Native Americans on some of the boards, but

they insisted on being called just that - probably because in German,

the term " Indianer " is used, which is different enough from Inder

(Indian) to not want a new term.

Oh, and the German translation for aboriginals (Eingeborene) as a

general term has a bad taste because it was and partly still is used

as a negative term close to babarians. Instead we now use

Einheimische, I am not sure if there is a seperate English

translation right now.

Lwaxy

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

> No I'm not. You are being purposely evasive.

Yes, you are, and do not tell me what I am or not, because I know I

was very clear and to the point, while you are using lots of excuses

to turn my words around like an NT. People do this to me all the dang

time, and I do not need such silly games in an Aspie forum, really.

> Your definition of the groups included Shamans and non-Christian

> spirituality people. Since Aboriginal people have Shamans and are

> non-Christian spirituality people, your own words prove that you

> have mispoken on at least two levels.

Sheeehs... BECAUSE WE HAVE THOSE IN OUR GROUPS. What is so hard to

understand about that??? I said that lots of times now, maybe learn to

read for a change. And why in the name of all Devas would I have to

mention " in my groups " everytime specifically for you, when this is an

OBVIOUS fact that everyone else but you seems to get?

> You are not very educated if you believe that Aboriginals are

> predominantly in Australia. Do not make assumptions based on

> minimal knowledge of facts. Open a book once in a while and broaden

> your knowledge base or ask questions of those who are apt to know

> the facts.

Yeah sure... how arrogant of you. No, Aboriginals with a big A means

Australia in German. Maybe you should read sometimes instead of

insisting everyone go by your own definition.

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

Raven, please cool it now!

I and Kate have just explained the linguistic differences between Europe and

English-speaking countries.

To not know what Canadian natives call themselves is not " uneducated " as

such information is not part of regular curriculum here, it is simply *not

knowing* due to not having been informed.

You have informed us now, so now we know.

I also think Arania has explained herself sufficiently.

Inger

Re: Witches, druids, shamans, et al

" Aboriginals are predominantly in Australia, no? "

You are not very educated if you believe that Aboriginals are

predominantly in Australia. Do not make assumptions based on

minimal knowledge of facts. Open a book once in a while and broaden

your knowledge base or ask questions of those who are apt to know

the facts.

Raven

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

> Very interesting. In Swedish, we also have the difference between

" indier "

> (from India) and " indianer " (Native Americans).

So we aren't the only ones to keep outdated terms with slight changes.

> " Einheimishe " would be " native " in English. ( " Inhemsk " in Swedish.

> Aboriginal is " urbefolkning " in Swedish.)

We use Urbevölkerung, too, sometimes, but it often gets misunderstood

for ancestors, so it's not done often unless we want to state which

German tribes, for example, originally lived somewhere.

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

OK, that goes for you too, Arania!

I can see why you both are feeling annoyed at this point, but no insults

here, please.

Inger

Co-administrator

Re: Witches, druids, shamans, et al

> No I'm not. You are being purposely evasive.

Yes, you are, and do not tell me what I am or not, because I know I

was very clear and to the point, while you are using lots of excuses

to turn my words around like an NT. People do this to me all the dang

time, and I do not need such silly games in an Aspie forum, really.

> Your definition of the groups included Shamans and non-Christian

> spirituality people. Since Aboriginal people have Shamans and are

> non-Christian spirituality people, your own words prove that you

> have mispoken on at least two levels.

Sheeehs... BECAUSE WE HAVE THOSE IN OUR GROUPS. What is so hard to

understand about that??? I said that lots of times now, maybe learn to

read for a change. And why in the name of all Devas would I have to

mention " in my groups " everytime specifically for you, when this is an

OBVIOUS fact that everyone else but you seems to get?

> You are not very educated if you believe that Aboriginals are

> predominantly in Australia. Do not make assumptions based on

> minimal knowledge of facts. Open a book once in a while and broaden

> your knowledge base or ask questions of those who are apt to know

> the facts.

Yeah sure... how arrogant of you. No, Aboriginals with a big A means

Australia in German. Maybe you should read sometimes instead of

insisting everyone go by your own definition.

Lwaxy

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

" Yeah sure... how arrogant of you. No, Aboriginals

with a big A means Australia in German. Maybe you should read

sometimes instead of insisting everyone go by your own definition. "

Insufferable attitude without facts is arrogance. Attitude with

facts is admirable. You call this arrogance because you do not know.

The definition is not mine when it comes to the term Aboriginal.

Just as any African American would bristle at the term NIGGER being

used to describe Afridan Americans, I bristle at your ignorance of

facts wherein Aboriginals are concerned.

Perhaps the words of Tecumseh (1795) will help you understand that

in speaking about shamans and non-Christian spirituality people, you

are perhaps unknowingly tainting Aboriginals with your comments.

" My heart is a stone. Heavy with sadness for my people; cold with

the knowledge that no treaty will keep the whites out of our land;

hard with determination to resist as long as I live and breathe. Now

we are weak and many of our people are afraid. But Hear Me: a single

twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong. Someday I will

embrace our brother tribes and draw them into a bundle and together

we will win our country back from the whites. " (Tecumseh, 1795) "

The First Nation Aboriginals do not need the Lwaxy's of this world

to speak for us. Each of us has a voice and together we are heard,

speaking our truths and living our spirituality.

And so you know ... Aboriginals in Australia refer to Aboriginals in

Canada as Aboriginals.

Raven

[Guest guest]

>

> OK, that goes for you too, Arania!

>

> I can see why you both are feeling annoyed at this point, but no

insults

> here, please.

Sorry, I've been having a rather annoying day.

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

Raven:

" The definition is not mine when it comes to the term Aboriginal.

Just as any African American would bristle at the term NIGGER being

used to describe Afridan Americans, I bristle at your ignorance of

facts wherein Aboriginals are concerned. "

Raven, that's ENOUGH!

You are getting yourself worked up over a simple linguistic difference. Not

knowing what your people call themselves is NOT the same as calling a

African Americans " nigger " . Arania did CLEARLY not intentionally wish to

insult you or your people, she - like most of us here - had just had not

been informed.

Feel free to issue a complaint to the German and Swedish educational system

about that, if you find that intolerable.

But first, please take a deep breath or two and let this topic rest now. You

have both said what you wished to convey and I can't see it getting anywhere

but into a fight.

Inger

Co-administrator

[Guest guest]

> Insufferable attitude without facts is arrogance. Attitude with

> facts is admirable. You call this arrogance because you do not know.

Actually, I called you arrogant because I think you are in this case.

You turn my words around as it pleases you and present yourself very

defensive. Maybe you have all reason to get upset at other nations a

lot, but that's clearly not my fault. Maybe it happes all the time

that outsiders try to talk for you, but that is not really a reason to

accuse me to do the same.

If you want to educate others about your people, it does not help to

go out there and expect everyone would know what you know and use the

same terms because we do not. It also doesn't help to make it seem as

if your people are the only ones to go by.

> The definition is not mine when it comes to the term Aboriginal.

> Just as any African American would bristle at the term NIGGER being

> used to describe Afridan Americans, I bristle at your ignorance of

> facts wherein Aboriginals are concerned.

Actually, many American blacks (who often don't even want the term

African there anymore, because they are not African anymore) use the

word nigger perfectly well, and I am not only refering to certain

circles. This is mostly done so the whites won't have power over them

anymore by using a supposed bad word. I'm not completely sure where

the comparison is though.

> Perhaps the words of Tecumseh (1795) will help you understand that

> in speaking about shamans and non-Christian spirituality people, you

> are perhaps unknowingly tainting Aboriginals with your comments.

I do not, because I speak about those I know and have every right to

do so. We do have shamans who fear Christians, that is a fact. As I

said plenty of times now, I was clearly speaking about those, why is

this so hard to get for you?

As you likely know, " shaman " is not a title that's strictly reserved

for natives of Nothern America or Australia. We do have native German

shamans, too, and although the term we use locally is slightly

different, internationally the word shaman is used. Maybe it should

not be used internationally, there are debates about that a lot, but

at the moment, it is.

It may suprise you but I know about Tecumseh very well, as he and his

people were the object of a 7th grade research project about the

differences in civilisations. And this research was the main reason

for me to research different paths than my own traditions.

> The First Nation Aboriginals do not need the Lwaxy's of this world

> to speak for us. Each of us has a voice and together we are heard,

> speaking our truths and living our spirituality.

And the rest of the world certainly does not need you to force them

into your own set of definition. Maybe if you would have read what I

wrote you would have understood that you got carried away by

assumptions and emotions.

Asides, there is only ONE of me. )

> And so you know ... Aboriginals in Australia refer to Aboriginals in

> Canada as Aboriginals.

Yes, that's good to know. But, serious question, how do we generally

know what Aboriginals we are talking of if we do not add the

respective country?

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

As an Administrator here, I am NOT going to take sides in this

debate!

Well, yes I am.

Clearly Raven is merelt trying to assert that certain terms, such

as " Indians " or even " Native Americans " can cause offense.

Now that the assertion has been made, and presumably understood by

all parties, we can proceed without argumentation over the point.

Henceforth, when referring to what I would call Native Americans,

and what others would call Indians, we will call people of such

descent Aboriginals.

Tom

Administrator

Raven:

" The definition is not mine when it comes to the term Aboriginal.

Just as any African American would bristle at the term NIGGER being

used to describe Afridan Americans, I bristle at your ignorance of

facts wherein Aboriginals are concerned. "

Raven, that's ENOUGH!

You are getting yourself worked up over a simple linguistic

difference. Not knowing what your people call themselves is NOT the

same as calling a African Americans " nigger " . Arania did CLEARLY not

intentionally wish to insult you or your people, she - like most of

us here - had just had not been informed.

Feel free to issue a complaint to the German and Swedish educational

system about that, if you find that intolerable.

But first, please take a deep breath or two and let this topic rest

now. You have both said what you wished to convey and I can't see it

getting anywhere but into a fight.

Inger

Co-administrator

[Guest guest]

I am having a hard time knowing what happens to be preferred respectful

phrase for various groups on the other side of the Atlantic.

I thought Native American was a respectful designation because that's what

I've been told. I thought African American was respectful because that's

what I've been told. If those have recently changed into other, even MORE

respectful designations, I'd be happy to be informed of it.

Is there like a list of which names are currently appropriate so that I as

an ignorant European don't to insulting anyone inadvertently?

Thanks to Raven, I now know that Canadian Aboriginals don't wish to be

called Native Americans. But just to avoid confusion with other Aboriginals,

how about calling them Canadian Aboriginals?

Inger

Re: Witches, druids, shamans, et al

As an Administrator here, I am NOT going to take sides in this

debate!

Well, yes I am.

Clearly Raven is merelt trying to assert that certain terms, such

as " Indians " or even " Native Americans " can cause offense.

Now that the assertion has been made, and presumably understood by

all parties, we can proceed without argumentation over the point.

Henceforth, when referring to what I would call Native Americans,

and what others would call Indians, we will call people of such

descent Aboriginals.

Tom

Administrator

Raven:

" The definition is not mine when it comes to the term Aboriginal.

Just as any African American would bristle at the term NIGGER being

used to describe Afridan Americans, I bristle at your ignorance of

facts wherein Aboriginals are concerned. "

Raven, that's ENOUGH!

You are getting yourself worked up over a simple linguistic

difference. Not knowing what your people call themselves is NOT the

same as calling a African Americans " nigger " . Arania did CLEARLY not

intentionally wish to insult you or your people, she - like most of

us here - had just had not been informed.

Feel free to issue a complaint to the German and Swedish educational

system about that, if you find that intolerable.

But first, please take a deep breath or two and let this topic rest

now. You have both said what you wished to convey and I can't see it

getting anywhere but into a fight.

Inger

Co-administrator

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.