Re: gallstones and ultrasound

October 21, 2004

--If you had an ultrasound of your gallbladder and it didn't show any

stones, that does mean anything as the stones are formed in the

liver. I personally can testify that is correct (Dr. states

this also) from experience as I do not have a gallbladder and get

great results passing multiple stones during the flush. Go figure!

Easy enough to figure out. Gail

- In oxyplus , " duhboze67 " <duhboze67@y...> wrote:

>

> Hi Jill,

> I passed some big ol' stones a week after having an ultrasound say

I

> didn't have any. Go figure!

>

> Personally, I think it's risky to do a L/gallbladder flush without

> the magnesium. Especially if a person is sick and hasn't done one

for

> a while. I use liquid magnesium chloride solution instead of the

> epsom salts.

October 22, 2004

With all due respect to Hulda e, These stones didn't come out of

my liver. They were 3/4 " in diameter. As far as I know the ducts

which go up into the liver called the biliary tree get smaller and

smaller and could hold small stones, but how could they contain

stones that big? The liver can't store stones that big.

No, it's clear that these stones which are just fat and cholesterol

don't always show on ultrasound. For that matter since my ultrasound

was also of the liver, they would have shown up there had they been

there.

> >

> > Hi Jill,

> > I passed some big ol' stones a week after having an ultrasound

say

> I

> > didn't have any. Go figure!

> >

> > Personally, I think it's risky to do a L/gallbladder flush

without

> > the magnesium. Especially if a person is sick and hasn't done one

> for

> > a while. I use liquid magnesium chloride solution instead of the

> > epsom salts.

October 22, 2004

< The liver can't store stones that big.>

sorry jack

but you are mistaken

the common bile duct is of small diameter, but it can stretch. that is what

the epsom salts are for. if you keep doing flushes you will see that the

quantity of stones released will far surpass the volume of the gall bladder

which is about the size of a small pear. some people pass ten thousand

stones or more.

the liver otoh can hold enormous quantities of stones.

the biliary tubing deep inside the liver stretches to accomodate the stones.

the fallacy with ultrasound and stones or coagulated bile is that it only

picks up things that are sufficiently calcified. the liver stones can be

solid and yet still not fully calcified enough to be recognized as a 'stone'

per se. doctors have conveniently set the standard to only see problems when

it's time for $urgery.

whether you call it a stone or coagulated bile is just semantics and

irrelevant. if it is obstructing bile flow then it is serious business.

i, like gail, had both ultrasound and mri done on my liver/gall bladder

which showed nothing abnormal. is it normal to have egg sized stones stored

in one's liver?

even if they did show up on the ultrasound, there is the issue of the

technician reporting the results. so many people in the medical field are

just blatantly incompetent that you can't put your trust in a report. some

doctors just call it a 'fatty liver' and tell you it's normal. and in the

eyes of these same people it is normal to have multiple surgeries, be

dependent on poisonous rx drugs, and die young of cancer. you might want to

reconsider putting blind faith in an ultrasound, or any test for that

matter.

furthermore people who have had their gallbladder's removed routinely pass

stones.

for more info on the proof of this check out andreas moritz's posts on

curezone, or read his book 'the amazing liver cleanse'

the body has a tremendous capacity for storing waste. i have been cleansing

my intestines for over 12 years and still no end in sight.

most people would rather not know the truth of these matters

it's funny, i take issue with alot of what hulda clark says, but the liver

cleanse and kidney cleanse are the only things with which i don't. and

neither of these are her own.

October 22, 2004

< The liver can't store stones that big.>

sorry jack

but you are mistaken

the common bile duct is of small diameter, but it can stretch. that is what

the epsom salts are for. if you keep doing flushes you will see that the

quantity of stones released will far surpass the volume of the gall bladder

which is about the size of a small pear. some people pass ten thousand

stones or more.

the liver otoh can hold enormous quantities of stones.

the biliary tubing deep inside the liver stretches to accomodate the stones.

the fallacy with ultrasound and stones or coagulated bile is that it only

picks up things that are sufficiently calcified. the liver stones can be

solid and yet still not fully calcified enough to be recognized as a 'stone'

per se. doctors have conveniently set the standard to only see problems when

it's time for $urgery.

whether you call it a stone or coagulated bile is just semantics and

irrelevant. if it is obstructing bile flow then it is serious business.

i, like gail, had both ultrasound and mri done on my liver/gall bladder

which showed nothing abnormal. is it normal to have egg sized stones stored

in one's liver?

even if they did show up on the ultrasound, there is the issue of the

technician reporting the results. so many people in the medical field are

just blatantly incompetent that you can't put your trust in a report. some

doctors just call it a 'fatty liver' and tell you it's normal. and in the

eyes of these same people it is normal to have multiple surgeries, be

dependent on poisonous rx drugs, and die young of cancer. you might want to

reconsider putting blind faith in an ultrasound, or any test for that

matter.

furthermore people who have had their gallbladder's removed routinely pass

stones.

for more info on the proof of this check out andreas moritz's posts on

curezone, or read his book 'the amazing liver cleanse'

the body has a tremendous capacity for storing waste. i have been cleansing

my intestines for over 12 years and still no end in sight.

most people would rather not know the truth of these matters

it's funny, i take issue with alot of what hulda clark says, but the liver

cleanse and kidney cleanse are the only things with which i don't. and

neither of these are her own.

October 22, 2004

Yes, I understand the concepts behind a liver flush, the purpose of

taking the magnesium, and I was aware that the common bile duct could

stretch greatly, if not it would be impossible to pass stones the

size of the ones I mentioned, since this duct is quite skinny. I also

am aware that more stones come from the liver than the gallbladder, I

just didn't think that BIG ones did, since my understanding was that

the common bile duct is the largest and the higher you go into the

liver, the smaller the network of ducts become. So egg sized stones,

in those small ducts? I don't know.

If what your saying is true about the really large stones coming from

the liver, then that is a concept that I will have to think about,

and require a bit more evidence to believe. Anyone with more info

please post. [i want to believe!] By the way I don't put confidence

in conventional tests that's why I dissed the ultrasound in my first

post. When I got sick I took two trips to Mayo in Rochester, and they

couldn't find a thing wrong with me. Then not too much later, I

proceeded to almost die from my nonexistent illness. I had Lyme

disease of course. Interestingly, they did find a condition known as

Gilbert's syndrome, which is excess bilirubin in the blood and they

called it a genetic disorder. It went away when I began doing

flushes.

> < The liver can't store stones that big.>

>

> sorry jack

>

> but you are mistaken

>

> the common bile duct is of small diameter, but it can stretch. that

is what

> the epsom salts are for. if you keep doing flushes you will see

that the

> quantity of stones released will far surpass the volume of the

gall bladder

> which is about the size of a small pear. some people pass ten

thousand

> stones or more.

>

> the liver otoh can hold enormous quantities of stones.

>

> the biliary tubing deep inside the liver stretches to accomodate

the stones.

>

> the fallacy with ultrasound and stones or coagulated bile is that

it only

> picks up things that are sufficiently calcified. the liver stones

can be

> solid and yet still not fully calcified enough to be recognized as

a 'stone'

> per se. doctors have conveniently set the standard to only see

problems when

> it's time for $urgery.

>

> whether you call it a stone or coagulated bile is just semantics and

> irrelevant. if it is obstructing bile flow then it is serious

business.

>

> i, like gail, had both ultrasound and mri done on my liver/gall

bladder

> which showed nothing abnormal. is it normal to have egg sized

stones stored

> in one's liver?

>

> even if they did show up on the ultrasound, there is the issue of

the

> technician reporting the results. so many people in the medical

field are

> just blatantly incompetent that you can't put your trust in a

report. some

> doctors just call it a 'fatty liver' and tell you it's normal. and

in the

> eyes of these same people it is normal to have multiple surgeries,

be

> dependent on poisonous rx drugs, and die young of cancer. you might

want to

> reconsider putting blind faith in an ultrasound, or any test for

that

> matter.

>

> furthermore people who have had their gallbladder's removed

routinely pass

> stones.

>

> for more info on the proof of this check out andreas moritz's posts

on

> curezone, or read his book 'the amazing liver cleanse'

>

> the body has a tremendous capacity for storing waste. i have been

cleansing

> my intestines for over 12 years and still no end in sight.

>

> most people would rather not know the truth of these matters

>

> it's funny, i take issue with alot of what hulda clark says, but

the liver

> cleanse and kidney cleanse are the only things with which i don't.

and

> neither of these are her own.

October 22, 2004

Thanx. I wonder about that---well apparently you can have stones in

the liver. You would think stones, if hard, would show up easily on

ultrasound as they will change the shape of the wave and that would

be obvious. (The sound will hit the stone and that will be quite

different than tissue). Where do you get magnesium chloride solution?

>

> Hi Jill,

> I passed some big ol' stones a week after having an ultrasound say

I

> didn't have any. Go figure!

>

> Personally, I think it's risky to do a L/gallbladder flush without

> the magnesium. Especially if a person is sick and hasn't done one

for

> a while. I use liquid magnesium chloride solution instead of the

> epsom salts.

October 22, 2004

Thanx. I wonder about that---well apparently you can have stones in

the liver. You would think stones, if hard, would show up easily on

ultrasound as they will change the shape of the wave and that would

be obvious. (The sound will hit the stone and that will be quite

different than tissue). Where do you get magnesium chloride solution?

>

> Hi Jill,

> I passed some big ol' stones a week after having an ultrasound say

I

> didn't have any. Go figure!

>

> Personally, I think it's risky to do a L/gallbladder flush without

> the magnesium. Especially if a person is sick and hasn't done one

for

> a while. I use liquid magnesium chloride solution instead of the

> epsom salts.

October 22, 2004

I have heard so many conflicting reports on stones, on which stones

are " real " , which are from the flush itself (I've heard, if soft and

greenish, from teh flush itself; if hard, obviously not)...who knows.

In any case, even if my gb and liver are sludgy and have stasis a

flush will be useful. But for now I'm doing GCG.

> > >

> > > Hi Jill,

> > > I passed some big ol' stones a week after having an ultrasound

> say

> > I

> > > didn't have any. Go figure!

> > >

> > > Personally, I think it's risky to do a L/gallbladder flush

> without

> > > the magnesium. Especially if a person is sick and hasn't done

one

> > for

> > > a while. I use liquid magnesium chloride solution instead of

the

> > > epsom salts.

October 22, 2004

How did you treat your lyme disease?

Lyme and gb problems seem to be associated, I notice. NOt sure why.

-- In oxyplus , " duhboze67 " <duhboze67@y...> wrote:

>

> Yes, I understand the concepts behind a liver flush, the purpose of

> taking the magnesium, and I was aware that the common bile duct

could

> stretch greatly, if not it would be impossible to pass stones the

> size of the ones I mentioned, since this duct is quite skinny. I

also

> am aware that more stones come from the liver than the gallbladder,

I

> just didn't think that BIG ones did, since my understanding was

that

> the common bile duct is the largest and the higher you go into the

> liver, the smaller the network of ducts become. So egg sized

stones,

> in those small ducts? I don't know.

>

> If what your saying is true about the really large stones coming

from

> the liver, then that is a concept that I will have to think about,

> and require a bit more evidence to believe. Anyone with more info

> please post. [i want to believe!] By the way I don't put confidence

> in conventional tests that's why I dissed the ultrasound in my

first

> post. When I got sick I took two trips to Mayo in Rochester, and

they

> couldn't find a thing wrong with me. Then not too much later, I

> proceeded to almost die from my nonexistent illness. I had Lyme

> disease of course. Interestingly, they did find a condition known

as

> Gilbert's syndrome, which is excess bilirubin in the blood and they

> called it a genetic disorder. It went away when I began doing

> flushes.

>

> > < The liver can't store stones that big.>

> >

> > sorry jack

> >

> > but you are mistaken

> >

> > the common bile duct is of small diameter, but it can stretch.

that

> is what

> > the epsom salts are for. if you keep doing flushes you will see

> that the

> > quantity of stones released will far surpass the volume of the

> gall bladder

> > which is about the size of a small pear. some people pass ten

> thousand

> > stones or more.

> >

> > the liver otoh can hold enormous quantities of stones.

> >

> > the biliary tubing deep inside the liver stretches to accomodate

> the stones.

> >

> > the fallacy with ultrasound and stones or coagulated bile is that

> it only

> > picks up things that are sufficiently calcified. the liver stones

> can be

> > solid and yet still not fully calcified enough to be recognized

as

> a 'stone'

> > per se. doctors have conveniently set the standard to only see

> problems when

> > it's time for $urgery.

> >

> > whether you call it a stone or coagulated bile is just semantics

and

> > irrelevant. if it is obstructing bile flow then it is serious

> business.

> >

> > i, like gail, had both ultrasound and mri done on my liver/gall

> bladder

> > which showed nothing abnormal. is it normal to have egg sized

> stones stored

> > in one's liver?

> >

> > even if they did show up on the ultrasound, there is the issue of

> the

> > technician reporting the results. so many people in the medical

> field are

> > just blatantly incompetent that you can't put your trust in a

> report. some

> > doctors just call it a 'fatty liver' and tell you it's normal.

and

> in the

> > eyes of these same people it is normal to have multiple

surgeries,

> be

> > dependent on poisonous rx drugs, and die young of cancer. you

might

> want to

> > reconsider putting blind faith in an ultrasound, or any test for

> that

> > matter.

> >

> > furthermore people who have had their gallbladder's removed

> routinely pass

> > stones.

> >

> > for more info on the proof of this check out andreas moritz's

posts

> on

> > curezone, or read his book 'the amazing liver cleanse'

> >

> > the body has a tremendous capacity for storing waste. i have been

> cleansing

> > my intestines for over 12 years and still no end in sight.

> >

> > most people would rather not know the truth of these matters

> >

> > it's funny, i take issue with alot of what hulda clark says, but

> the liver

> > cleanse and kidney cleanse are the only things with which i

don't.

> and

> > neither of these are her own.

October 22, 2004

--

Hi Duhboze,

I also passed stones the size of a walnut and don't have a

gallbladder. I think it is the epson salt that dialates the ducks

allowing large stones to pass. Which is one of the reasons to not

skimp on the salt. I think <G> At any rate, the stones passed

easily enough and without a gallbladder. Have your read up on her

() site? She does say they form in the liver, and I have to

believe her on this one. But isn't it amazing your stones didn't

show up on the ultrasound!!??

There have been so many people who don't even believe the

liver/gallbladder works. We've heard it all here. I always have to

fondly smile to myself when I think of Arthur's earilier posts

disbelieving the stones are for real. He went on and on about it,

and then went on to become our Mr. Liver Cleanse King here on

Oxyplus. A true expert if there ever was one.

Gail

- In oxyplus , " duhboze67 " <duhboze67@y...> wrote:

>

> With all due respect to Hulda e, These stones didn't come out

of

> my liver. They were 3/4 " in diameter. As far as I know the ducts

> which go up into the liver called the biliary tree get smaller and

> smaller and could hold small stones, but how could they contain

> stones that big? The liver can't store stones that big.

>

> No, it's clear that these stones which are just fat and cholesterol

> don't always show on ultrasound. For that matter since my

ultrasound

> was also of the liver, they would have shown up there had they been

> there.

>

October 22, 2004

>

If what your saying is true about the really large stones coming

from

> the liver, then that is a concept that I will have to think about,

> and require a bit more evidence to believe.

=======================

Duhboze, I DON'T have a gallbladder! I had it taken out over 30

years ago because of stones! lol It is kind of funny because when

doing the liver (in my case I can't say a gallbladder cleanse <G>)

cleanse, I passed thousands of stone over a period of time ranging

anywhere from walnut size to pea size to flake like things. All

kinds of things came out of my liver. What more evidence do you want?

Gail

October 22, 2004

duhboze67 wrote:

> Then not too much later, I

> proceeded to almost die from my nonexistent illness.

### That was my experience also. Over time I suspect that my problem

was multifaceted. Mercury poisoning, celiac caused by candida

imbalance, and poorly functioning detox pathways due to all the above.

So are you doing much better now?

Blessings

Donna

http://www.excellentthings.com

October 22, 2004

Hi Jill, Donna, group,

Well I have changed my view on liver flushes, and where the stones

come from. I really thought that the larger stones came from the

gallbladder since the liver ducts are so small. But you can't learn

if you hold to tightly to what you think you know.

I get my mag. chloride from Allergy Research Group [solution of

magnesium]

As far as what I did to treat my Lyme disease, I won't bother you

with the long version as you have busy lives, but the short version

is that I was misdiagnosed over a period of a few years and when I

finally was diagnosed in '98 I had lost more than a third of my

normal weight, had a white count below two, elevated liver enzymes,

sed rate, had severe Mercury poisoning and accompanying anxiety and

depression, and symptoms to numerous to list. The Doc who diagnosed

me said she didn't want to treat me as I was too ill for antibiotics.

Shortly after that I had to be fed intravenously for a little while

and had 4 life threatening Staph infections due to the catheter.

When you get that sick doing nothing is not an option and every

decision is critical. I personally believe that when someone reaches

that point, that the principles of natural health such as nutrition,

detox, sleep, reasonable exercize, ones mental state, and as I am

learning more recently oxygen, are more than a just a charming

notion, but represent the only viable path to recovery. Choosing to

continue chasing an allopathic solution will result in death. So

in '98 I didn't listen to my families urging to go back to Mayo to be

treated for the Lyme, but instead I basically started step by step

following all Sherry protocols in " Wellness against all odds " ,

Rita Shapiro's " A guide to detoxification " and networked just like we

do here to experiment with what worked. In three years I gained back

my weight, brought my Mercury down to normal, normalized my labs

[back to where they were when I supposedly wasn't sick] and I would

say recovered around 70%.

Then beginning in '01 I decided to go after the Lyme and began

cautiously taking antibiotics. I was able to tolerate them quite well

because of the detox I do, and got by with minimum Herx, but after

two years of working with a Doctor in Dallas I would say that the

results weren't great. Having done these antibiotics off and on for

two years I was dismayed to see the Lyme bacterium alive and well in

a dark field blood sample. It seemed like indestructo bug. Therefore,

I just maintained my tried and true therapies.

I wasn't too excited when my doctor said he wanted to enter me in a

study in Dallas using natural therapies to treat Lyme disease, since

he knew I was " into that kind of stuff " . As he described the

treatments I was like " Oh, I've done all that stuff already " . My

cheeky attitude almost kept me from getting in that study which would

have been a big loss. I would say that I made another 15% recovery in

this study which brings me to about 85%, which is borderline normal

life. The primary kill therapy used was Samento but this study

emphasized changing the environment that facilitates the bug

primarily. In my view from what I have experienced, kill therapies

are a waste of time and always disappoint without this. Hope I have

given Y'all some useful information. Jack

In oxyplus , CountryGirl <ruthful@p...> wrote:

>

> duhboze67 wrote:

>

> > Then not too much later, I

> > proceeded to almost die from my nonexistent illness.

>

> ### That was my experience also. Over time I suspect that my

problem

> was multifaceted. Mercury poisoning, celiac caused by candida

> imbalance, and poorly functioning detox pathways due to all the

above.

>

> So are you doing much better now?

>

> Blessings

> Donna

> http://www.excellentthings.com

October 22, 2004

That's an inspiring story.

> >

> > > Then not too much later, I

> > > proceeded to almost die from my nonexistent illness.

> >

> > ### That was my experience also. Over time I suspect that my

> problem

> > was multifaceted. Mercury poisoning, celiac caused by candida

> > imbalance, and poorly functioning detox pathways due to all the

> above.

> >

> > So are you doing much better now?

> >

> > Blessings

> > Donna

> > http://www.excellentthings.com

October 23, 2004

Hi,

I, too, don't have a gallbladder and have done liver flushes. (most

people get confused when I call them liver flushes and have to explain

that it is virtually the same thing except with out the gall bladder.

It gets annoying) I have gotten out a lot of crud and stones from the

liver. Although I have not seen large stones I have seen numerous

stones. I had a ultrasound done shortly before flushing and I asked the

lab tech if she could see stones and she said she could not, but said if

they were there she could. So there are stones that don't show up on

the ultrasound, because of their makeup.

I have flushed 5 times over this past summer and trying to do them

about 2 weeks apart. I have gotten different colored bile and stones

out each time until the last time I saw fairly dark pea green bile. It

started out very orange and the stones were very orange, which really

prompted me in doing more to get the bad out. I am going to gear up for

more liver flushes again over the next couple of months as my work hours

have slowed down again so I can plan better times for them.

G Murray

wanda85929 wrote:

>Duhboze, I DON'T have a gallbladder! I had it taken out over 30

>years ago because of stones! lol It is kind of funny because when

>doing the liver (in my case I can't say a gallbladder cleanse <G>)

>cleanse, I passed thousands of stone over a period of time ranging

>anywhere from walnut size to pea size to flake like things. All

>kinds of things came out of my liver. What more evidence do you want?

>

>Gail

>

October 23, 2004

It really is weird, these stories people are telling. Where are the

stones and why can't ultrasound find them? They usually go over your

whole abdomen when you get a gb scan--at least they did in my case.

Its mysterious. And people w/o gb getting so many stones. And being

large, but fitting thru the bile duct. OTOH it does make sense to me

that the liver, being so much bigger, can store more stones than the

gb. Still, you'd think if there were stones in the liver, that on

autopsies they would have been found, and this would be in the

medical literature. It's confusing.

I assume people felt better after? I guess everybody feels you

*should* do the epsom salts.

BTW, I am also taking curcuma from Prime Health. It tastes fairly

bitter. To tell the truth I don't notice anything from taking the GCG

or the curcuma. Not sure if I would.

>

> >Duhboze, I DON'T have a gallbladder! I had it taken out over 30

> >years ago because of stones! lol It is kind of funny because when

> >doing the liver (in my case I can't say a gallbladder cleanse <G>)

> >cleanse, I passed thousands of stone over a period of time ranging

> >anywhere from walnut size to pea size to flake like things. All

> >kinds of things came out of my liver. What more evidence do you

want?

> >

> >Gail

> >

October 23, 2004

Thank, I appreciate that.

> > >

> > > > Then not too much later, I

> > > > proceeded to almost die from my nonexistent illness.

> > >

> > > ### That was my experience also. Over time I suspect that my

> > problem

> > > was multifaceted. Mercury poisoning, celiac caused by candida

> > > imbalance, and poorly functioning detox pathways due to all the

> > above.

> > >

> > > So are you doing much better now?

> > >

> > > Blessings

> > > Donna

> > > http://www.excellentthings.com

October 23, 2004

To highlight the inability of conventional tests to find these

stones, I also had a complete abdominal CAT Scan and they still

didn't find stones,and yet they came out with the flush. I agree with

an earlier post, whoever said it I forgot, that the reason these

stones aren't showing up is because they aren't calcified and to tell

you the truth, I don't think I have EVER had any calcified stones. I

have done tons of liver flushes and they all are different shades of

green stones. I think these stones, just being made mostly of

cholesterol, are just to soft to show up on these tests which are

designed to see hardened calcified stones. It is for this reason that

after having done a lot of the flushes, I decided to stop doing the

Orthophos and apple juice before each flush, which is supposed to

soften calcified stones by acidifying your system. I also thought

that this wasn't such a good idea anyhow, since most chronically ill

are overacidic already. I have never noticed one stitch of difference

since I d/ced the apple juice and phos. I don't fast either, except

skipping the last meal of that day. This simplifies it for me.

I have gotten out yellowish, orange sludge at times which is the

biliruben that backs up and causes jaundice, but never stones, but I

have heard of that before. One thing that helps me get through a

liver flush without as much nausea and recover faster is to get up

about three hours after drinking the oil [set an alarm clock] and

take a large dose of psyllium mixed with Sonne's bentonite and

activated charcoal. I do coffee enemas all the time anyway, but I

have found that doing them the day after along with highwater enemas

is key for me to get that stuff out of me and start feeling

better.

Could you comment on things you are doing to dissolve stones Jill as

I am curious about this? I focused on trying to do different things

to prevent stone formation once, and use taurine and lecithen, but I

haven't ever noticed anything making a big difference. The stones

just keep on being created and I just keep on flushing. Although, I

would think that the flush would be highly benificial whether a

person had stones or not. Jack

> >

> > >Duhboze, I DON'T have a gallbladder! I had it taken out over 30

> > >years ago because of stones! lol It is kind of funny because

when

> > >doing the liver (in my case I can't say a gallbladder cleanse

<G>)

> > >cleanse, I passed thousands of stone over a period of time

ranging

> > >anywhere from walnut size to pea size to flake like things. All

> > >kinds of things came out of my liver. What more evidence do you

> want?

> > >

> > >Gail

> > >

October 23, 2004