Re: 504 or IEP

September 1, 2006

Just curious, why would you need to implement a 504 if he already was

classified and is covered by an IEP? " Getting in trouble " could certainly be

handled through an emergency IEP and modifications/updates to it. You can

update

an IEP anytime when the need arises. Just be careful they don't try to

de-classify him by implementing a 504 in its place. In my experience, an IEP

affords you more protections than a 504 plan.

In a message dated 9/1/2006 8:36:17 AM Central Standard Time,

g_mart1971@... writes:

finally got an IEP last year so that school would be more accomodating.

However, now his OCD is flared up so badly that he hasn't been able to start

school at all and has almost confined himself to our house. We are now told we

have to implement a 504

September 1, 2006

I would simply ask the child study team WHY they feel the need for a 504

when your son is already afforded certain protections and rights under his

classification and CURRENT IEP. Anything addressed with a 504 can certainly be

put into place via IEP and is easier to enforce. That may be the key to their

rational - enforcability - A 504 only removes obstacles - think of it as a

blind person walking across the room - someone runs ahead of them and moves all

the furniture out of the way so they don't trip under a 504 plan. While the

blind person may have made it across the room without hurting themself, did

they really learn how to negotiate a crowded room with furniture in it? No,

because they were simply accomodated. An IEP guarantees your child the right

to a free appropriate education along with any additional services that may

be required - in this case - teaching that blind person HOW to negotiate the

room and not just removing the things that make it hard. I've had both 504

plans and IEPs for my children and I can tell you first-hand, a 504 is a

districts way of saving them money and making the parent believe their child is

receiving help. In some instances, a 504 plan is sufficient, i.e. extra time

for tests, reduced homework, etc etc... But for the school personnel to be

truly held accountable and in a child whose disability really hinders their

school success, an IEP is absolutely needed and warranted. Since you already

have one in place, you have every right to demand a meeting and address any

current situations under the present plan.

September 1, 2006

My son was diagnosed 8 years ago and I'm still learning every day. He is 12 and

finally got an IEP last year so that school would be more accomodating.

However, now his OCD is flared up so badly that he hasn't been able to start

school at all and has almost confined himself to our house. We are now told we

have to implement a 504 so we don't get in trouble for him being out of school.

We going to check into eSchool. I'll be interested in what you learn about the

disability. If it is, would it be temporary? Because when my son't OCD is

under control he functions pretty much normally.

Good luck,

Glenda

rhondastanish <PRSTANISH@...> wrote:

I have been told that OCD is a disabilty and although a 504 plan is

good what we really need is IEP. Is this accurate? Can a child with

OCD be considered disabled? Has anyone else ever heard this. I guess

with IEP we would be able get testing for my son. We have never had

any. My son was only dx about 6 months ago so I still have ALOT to

learn. I have also made an appt. with the Pediatric Anxiety Research

clinic. He will be screened, diagnosed, and they will suggest the

best course of treatment. Has anyone elese ever tried this?

Rhonda

---------------------------------

Get your email and more, right on the new .com

September 1, 2006

Your son can become eligible for an IEP if it can be shown that the

OCD is affecting his learning. Also, consider any characteristics

that may indicate a learning problem as a comorbid condition affecting

your son's education (this may get you more services). You can refer

to the LD online website http://www.ldonline.org.

What I did was consider that my son has sensorimotor symptoms, has had

OT in the past, and that this may actually be an indication of a

larger issue and a cause for his behavioral problems in school

(psychiatric diagnosis aside). I met with the school, pointed this

out as well as my concern about other characteristics (indicating a

possible learning disorder), and they agreed to test him. Outside of

his handwriting issues, he had no bad grades (though I suspected that

he would have this year if undiagnosed). Rather, his issues were more

behvioral in nature.

The process for IEP is to write a letter requesting a meeting to

determine eligibility for evaluation (do your research first). Then

your son will be evaluated. After that, there will be a meeting to

discuss IEP eligibility determination and finally your will meet to

discuss the contents of the IEP. There are many sites that can be

helpful for you in this process(LD Online for one). I bought a book

as well (guide to IEP).

A good evaluation to have is a neurodevelopmental evaluation. If your

child has any neurological soft signs (tics, hand flapping, sensory

issues, motor skill and coordination deficits, or social skill

deficits), you should be able to have this testing done. You get a

comprehensive picture of your child's neurological and psychological

functioning and may learn of comorbid conditions such as ADD or

Tourettes, or SPD. If this evaluation reveals other neurological

problems or a learning disability, your son will be likely to get more

of what he needs at school.

A 504 Plan (accommodations and modifications) can be developed in

conjunction with and IEP or alone. With our kids, I think it best to

have one.

Best wishes,

Bonnie

>

> I have been told that OCD is a disabilty and although a 504 plan is

> good what we really need is IEP. Is this accurate? Can a child with

> OCD be considered disabled? Has anyone else ever heard this. I guess

> with IEP we would be able get testing for my son. We have never had

> any. My son was only dx about 6 months ago so I still have ALOT to

> learn. I have also made an appt. with the Pediatric Anxiety Research

> clinic. He will be screened, diagnosed, and they will suggest the

> best course of treatment. Has anyone elese ever tried this?

> Rhonda

>

September 1, 2006

AN IEP is the way to go. It is LEGALLY enforceable. Transferes from district to

district, state to state. An IEP is better than a 504. Disability is such a

stupid word. An IEP does not mean that a child is disabled, it simply means

that a child has an exceptionally and needs an IEP-Individual Education Plan.

Gifted students have IEPs to receive extra service. In reality every child

should have an IEP because each one is different, but then that would shake up

the entire school system..lol.

" In order to move forward...

you need to know where you are going. " (Lori Rilat)

---------------------------------

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out.

September 1, 2006

The school is trying to get out of their contract with you by changing it from

an IEP to a 504. Why would you do that? An IEP is legally enforceable and

REQUIRES the school to give your child an education. As a parent, the school

can not dismiss his IEP without your AUTHORITY. They are not telling you the

entire truth. It seems like they are trying to make it easier on themselves.

Your son should keep his IEP and the school will have to modify it to provide

services to him. If you give up that IEP you are giving up certain rights.

" In order to move forward...

you need to know where you are going. " (Lori Rilat)

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1¢/min.

September 1, 2006

Where is that clinic you are talking about?

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of rhondastanish

Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 8:39 AM

Subject: 504 or IEP

I have been told that OCD is a disabilty and although a 504 plan is

good what we really need is IEP. Is this accurate? Can a child with

OCD be considered disabled? Has anyone else ever heard this. I guess

with IEP we would be able get testing for my son. We have never had

any. My son was only dx about 6 months ago so I still have ALOT to

learn. I have also made an appt. with the Pediatric Anxiety Research

clinic. He will be screened, diagnosed, and they will suggest the

best course of treatment. Has anyone elese ever tried this?

Rhonda

September 1, 2006

I was thinking that a 504 provided something in addition to an IEP. I

guess that I am wrong. I found this website to help explain it.

http://www.slc.sevier.org/iepv504.htm

From what I read, when more extensive needs are evident, an IEP is the

way to go.

Thanks,

Bonnie

>

> I would simply ask the child study team WHY they feel the need for a

504

> when your son is already afforded certain protections and rights

under his

> classification and CURRENT IEP. Anything addressed with a 504 can

certainly be

> put into place via IEP and is easier to enforce. That may be the

key to their

> rational - enforcability - A 504 only removes obstacles - think of

it as a

> blind person walking across the room - someone runs ahead of them

and moves all

> the furniture out of the way so they don't trip under a 504 plan.

While the

> blind person may have made it across the room without hurting

themself, did

> they really learn how to negotiate a crowded room with furniture in

it? No,

> because they were simply accomodated. An IEP guarantees your child

the right

> to a free appropriate education along with any additional services

that may

> be required - in this case - teaching that blind person HOW to

negotiate the

> room and not just removing the things that make it hard. I've had

both 504

> plans and IEPs for my children and I can tell you first-hand, a 504

is a

> districts way of saving them money and making the parent believe

their child is

> receiving help. In some instances, a 504 plan is sufficient, i.e.

extra time

> for tests, reduced homework, etc etc... But for the school

personnel to be

> truly held accountable and in a child whose disability really

hinders their

> school success, an IEP is absolutely needed and warranted. Since

you already

> have one in place, you have every right to demand a meeting and

address any

> current situations under the present plan.

>

September 1, 2006

All students with disabilities are covered by section 504.

This can occur in several ways. The one we most often think of is for the child

to have a written 504 plan which outlines the accommodations that the child

needs so that his/her civil rights aren't violated and so that he/she has equal

access to the same programs as non disabled children.

However, students with IEPs are also covered by section 504. It is just that

there 504 accommodations are written directly into their IEPs, so there is no

need for a separate 504 plan.

Additionally, even students with disabilities who don't haave 504 plans or IEPs

are still covered by section 504. It is still illegal to discriminate against

them, and you still have to provide acommodations. (For example, you shouldn't

need a written plan to " allow " a student with diabetes to go check his sugar, or

to " allow " a student with asthma to use an inhaler).

Additionally, 504 potentially has *more* serious and significant ramifications

than an IEP as it is covered by the Office of Civil Rights. No, you don't have

due process rights under 504, but you can appeal directly to OCR without having

to go through the long IDEA hearing process. (This is true, also, when a child

with an IEP has his 504 protections violated).

Jeanne

September 1, 2006

I respectfully disagree, with this statement. With an IEP, the

school is where the pressure is put - They are responsible for ensuring the

child

meets the goals outlined in their IEP. If the child isn't meeting them, then

they MUST come up with a plan so that they do. With a 504, the school

spends no spec ed dollars and just removes obstacles - it doesn't GUARANTEE the

student will learn and progress. Schools like to push 504 plans before an

evaluation and classification - it is cheaper for them and basically puts the

responsibility on the parent for ensuring the modifications are being followed.

In a message dated 9/1/2006 12:23:41 PM Central Standard Time,

@... writes:

With an IEP, there is pressure on a student to reach goals/show

progress on them, etc.

September 1, 2006

Check out this website.

http://www.chtu.org/504.html

-

>

> All students with disabilities are covered by section 504.

>

> This can occur in several ways. The one we most often think of is

for the child to have a written 504 plan which outlines the

accommodations that the child needs so that his/her civil rights

aren't violated and so that he/she has equal access to the same

programs as non disabled children.

>

> However, students with IEPs are also covered by section 504. It

is just that there 504 accommodations are written directly into

their IEPs, so there is no need for a separate 504 plan.

>

> Additionally, even students with disabilities who don't haave 504

plans or IEPs are still covered by section 504. It is still illegal

to discriminate against them, and you still have to provide

acommodations. (For example, you shouldn't need a written plan

to " allow " a student with diabetes to go check his sugar, or

to " allow " a student with asthma to use an inhaler).

>

> Additionally, 504 potentially has *more* serious and significant

ramifications than an IEP as it is covered by the Office of Civil

Rights. No, you don't have due process rights under 504, but you

can appeal directly to OCR without having to go through the long

IDEA hearing process. (This is true, also, when a child with an IEP

has his 504 protections violated).

>

> Jeanne

>

September 1, 2006

>

> Where is that clinic you are talking about?

>

> I found a listed under clinical trials a research study takinf

place at the RI Hospital conducted by the Pediatric Anxiety Research

Clinic. This is study focusing on OCD. If any one wants more info

let me know. Rhonda

> _____

>

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of rhondastanish

> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 8:39 AM

>

> Subject: 504 or IEP

>

> I have been told that OCD is a disabilty and although a 504 plan

is

> good what we really need is IEP. Is this accurate? Can a child

with

> OCD be considered disabled? Has anyone else ever heard this. I

guess

> with IEP we would be able get testing for my son. We have never

had

> any. My son was only dx about 6 months ago so I still have ALOT to

> learn. I have also made an appt. with the Pediatric Anxiety

Research

> clinic. He will be screened, diagnosed, and they will suggest the

> best course of treatment. Has anyone elese ever tried this?

> Rhonda

>

September 1, 2006

I was just wondering because we are considering doing the one at Duke with

Dr. March which is only 3 hours from us.

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of rhondastanish

Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 12:41 PM

Subject: Re: 504 or IEP

>

> Where is that clinic you are talking about?

>

> I found a listed under clinical trials a research study takinf

place at the RI Hospital conducted by the Pediatric Anxiety Research

Clinic. This is study focusing on OCD. If any one wants more info

let me know. Rhonda

> _____

>

> From: @ <mailto:%40>

> [mailto:@ <mailto:%40>

] On Behalf Of rhondastanish

> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 8:39 AM

> @ <mailto:%40>

> Subject: 504 or IEP

>

> I have been told that OCD is a disabilty and although a 504 plan

is

> good what we really need is IEP. Is this accurate? Can a child

with

> OCD be considered disabled? Has anyone else ever heard this. I

guess

> with IEP we would be able get testing for my son. We have never

had

> any. My son was only dx about 6 months ago so I still have ALOT to

> learn. I have also made an appt. with the Pediatric Anxiety

Research

> clinic. He will be screened, diagnosed, and they will suggest the

> best course of treatment. Has anyone elese ever tried this?

> Rhonda

>

September 1, 2006

A 504 Plan has worked great for my son. He's in 12th grade now and

OCD began back in 6th grade.

If all your son needs is some accommodations and/or modifications for

his schoolwork and class, then a 504 Plan is fine. If he needs some

type of special education services in addition to accomm/mods, then an

IEP will be needed.

With an IEP, there is pressure on a student to reach goals/show

progress on them, etc. A 504 Plan won't have these goals in it. I

say " pressure " but the point is, there should be measureable goals

written into an IEP. Goals aren't in the 504.

I didn't want under *any* pressure back when OCD was so

disabling, he didn't need the added stress. A 504 Plan *has* to be

followed, just like an IEP and is just as enforceable.

Quick answers!

>

> I have been told that OCD is a disabilty and although a 504 plan is

> good what we really need is IEP. Is this accurate? Can a child

with

> OCD be considered disabled? Has anyone else ever heard this. I

September 1, 2006

Yes your child can have an IEP.

Sharon

504 or IEP

I have been told that OCD is a disabilty and although a 504 plan is

good what we really need is IEP. Is this accurate? Can a child with

OCD be considered disabled? Has anyone else ever heard this. I guess

with IEP we would be able get testing for my son. We have never had

any. My son was only dx about 6 months ago so I still have ALOT to

learn. I have also made an appt. with the Pediatric Anxiety Research

clinic. He will be screened, diagnosed, and they will suggest the

best course of treatment. Has anyone elese ever tried this?

Rhonda

September 1, 2006

Even if his testing does not reveal a specific learning disability, he can

be classified OHI (other health impaired) and receive services and support via

IEP.

In a message dated 9/1/2006 4:53:26 PM Central Standard Time,

sdonovan1@... writes:

I have been told that OCD is a disabilty and although a 504 plan is

good what we really need is IEP. Is this accurate?

September 1, 2006

IEPs do not pose " pressure " on the student, they put " pressure " on the school.

The school has to insure that the goals created will be met. The parent has the

final say as to what the goals will be. The parent must sign the IEP for it to

take effect. I worked in the school system and I saw how the IEP held the staff

more accountable because of legal ramifications.

" In order to move forward...

you need to know where you are going. " (Lori Rilat)

---------------------------------

Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Small

Business.

September 1, 2006

OK, I'll try this again, LOL!

I didn't want any goals for to work towards at school. I

just wanted exactly what we set out it in the 504 Plan

(accommodations & modifications for his schoolwork/education). We

set the pace at home the 3 middle school years as to his needing

those accom/mods less.

The school is under pressure, you're right. But I didn't want the

teacher or anyone prompting him to...say, get more work done at

school and that be a goal for the school/ to work towards.

Oh, of course the teacher might tell him to get started on his work;

that got him unstuck at times.

But in previous years, I had to fight for the twins to keep their IEP

for speech due to " no progress " and I wasn't about to chance going

through that at the time was going through that initial year

of onset of OCD. Things were so nightmarish then, dealing with OCD

all new, I thought he'd have to be hospitalized.... When things

calmed down a bit later, the 504 Plan was working very well, there

were no special education services needed (at least that was

offered in middle school here) and I had a firm " no stress " policy

for home and for school. Whew, I'm glad those years are behind us!

I dunno, if he had needed to work toward some goal - and he was old

enough to understand that he had a goal in an IEP he had to work on -

that, in my opinion, would have been added stress on him; he likes to

please people, to please teachers....

I do see/understand what you and others are saying. Except for the

latter: " basically puts the responsibility on the parent for ensuring

the modifications are being followed. " I feel that's true for IEPs

too, at least around here and what I've read in other groups where

parents are dealing with school issues and IEPs not being followed.

>

> I respectfully disagree, with this statement. With an IEP,

the

> school is where the pressure is put - They are responsible for

ensuring the child

> meets the goals outlined in their IEP. If the child isn't meeting

them, then

> they MUST come up with a plan so that they do. With a 504, the

school

> spends no spec ed dollars and just removes obstacles - it doesn't

GUARANTEE the

> student will learn and progress. Schools like to push 504 plans

before an

> evaluation and classification - it is cheaper for them and

basically puts the

> responsibility on the parent for ensuring the modifications are

being followed.

>

September 2, 2006

Okay, I know exactly what you're saying now, Chris. And, I do think a 504

plan has it's place and is extremely useful in certain cases, especially as

you describe with . My son had a 504 plan in 5th grade and I was just

so disappointed - I had dealt with spec ed for my oldest for 10 years prior to

that and knew the " frustrations " involved. My son's 504 plan basically

allowed for a quick pat on the head and pass to the next grade. All they kept

saying is he has a diagnosis so qualifies for this. Nobody cared that he had

missed all the basic instruction in the few years prior and had no basics to

base further education on. He just kind of stayed under the radar because

there were no behavior problems, etc. I found it extremely hard to keep

accomodations under the 504 enforced as (and I don't know if this is a location

difference) the CST is not involved in a 504 plan here. It's bascially the

teachers and school nurse. It was constantly going to " Mrs. " and

reminding

them of xyz and by the time she remembered, " Mrs. " had to be reminded

that she forgot xyz.. With classification and IEP, when problems arise, you at

least have a team of members reminding " Mrs. " of xyz. Either way, I

supose it is frustrating. As far as goals in an IEP, well you and I both know

those are mandated and are the goals actually met year-to-year? Well, not

exactly. Then, of course, goals are modified - I guess it's like a catch-22

situation when if comes to education/disabilities. Throw in NCLB laws,

which were supposed to address these issues - but that's a whole 'nuther story!

LOL!

Anyway, I understand now exactly what you were explaining and do

agree. BTW - My daughter who is not OCD, but ADHD is also as you describe with

- a people pleaser. She's always been this way - drives us nuts. She

does very well in school, but has received special services since first grade

and works very hard. Entering high school now she is able to be mainstream

and has lots of confidence. I just think had my son received classification

and services earlier, he wouldn't be so behind as he is now (entering 10th

grade) and school wouldn't be such a source of irritation for him.

In a message dated 9/1/2006 8:06:24 PM Central Standard Time,

@... writes:

OK, I'll try this again, LOL!

September 2, 2006

Actually, a 504 plan must also be legally followed, BUT - Classification and

subsequent IEP under IDEA GUARANTEES a student the right to a free,

appropriate education - a 504 does not offer this guarantee, so from a legal

standpoint, the district has more to lose by not following an IEP. A 504 plan

is

tougher to prove it isn't being followed. Mention due process to a CST and

they

immediately start doing cartwheels to please you - Mention to the school

nurse that a 504 plan isn't being followed and they look confused.

In a message dated 9/2/2006 7:32:37 AM Central Standard Time,

sdonovan1@... writes:

The main difference in a 504 or IEP is that they are LEGALLY required to

follow the IEP, but not the 504.

September 2, 2006

-

I think you've hit it correctly - the differences in state-to-state or

school-to-school. Even with an IEP, I think, as you mention, making sure the

teachers have read (AND UNDERSTAND) the IEP is a battle in itself.

Like you, e-mail is a great help - I keep in constant contact with my son's

teachers and they've been very responsive and helpful in this sense. I think

whether you have an IEP or 504 plan, the key to cooperation definitely lies

in ongoing consistent communication with the teachers/personnel involved with

your child. That seems to be a constant no matter what part of the country

you're in.

I think in my state, 504 plans are pushed because of our extremely high

school taxes and school budget deficits - they cost the district nothing to

implement compared with classification/IEP implementation. Maybe that is a key

element in the discrepancy from area to area, the cost factor? Our schools

are basically supported through local property taxes and each year it gets

harder and harder financially with state aid dwindling.

In a message dated 9/2/2006 8:24:56 AM Central Standard Time,

@... writes:

I've thought it interesting over the years, being in these different

online groups, the ways schools vary from state to state (or school

to school).

September 2, 2006

- I found the same reaction here - especially at the high school

level. The teachers are always thankful and commenting that parents seem to

drop

out of the picture come middle school/high school level. They always thank

me for my communication with them, which makes it a little easier I think

being on the same team. I think communication is what makes school successful

or

not for the student with " issues " at this age.

And yes, our spec ed teachers in elementary have actually been threatened

with job loss in the event they refer any more students for CST testing. Once

their numbers are in, if they identify a student needing services, it costs

them $$ and we all know schools hate to part with that. Once in a while

you'll find a district with an excellent CST and members not afraid to buck up

against the administration, but a large part of spec ed/CST is politically

driven unfortunately. This hasn't really changed in - well forever or since

I've

been dealing with spec ed.

In a message dated 9/2/2006 8:54:14 AM Central Standard Time,

@... writes:

And as to communication - some teachers and guidance counselors are

very complimentary that I communicate with them; apparently that

doesn't happen often enough in their opinion (parents taking an

interest).

September 2, 2006

The main difference in a 504 or IEP is that they are LEGALLY required to follow

the IEP, but not the 504.