Guest guest Posted September 29, 2006 Report Share Posted September 29, 2006 My son, Owen, was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder, as well as Communication Disorder, last month. I had my appointment today at the Social Security office to apply for SSI. I was kind of in awe to hear that it could take up to 6 months before I will hear anything. I guess I should have expected that, but I had EVERYTHING possible with me, and gave them copies. The reports from the speech therapist, school psychologist, and the preschool teacher. I know that they have to have someone look over all of it, but my goodness - I practically SPELLED it out for them, and all she could tell me was " it looks like he'll qualify. " I should be thankful that this is all that is frustrating me right now. LOL. He's been in pre-school for 2 weeks now, and already I'm seeing little bits of progress here and there. But, all it's been is " hurry up and wait " since I tried to get everything going (with testing and such) since last Spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 > > My son, Owen, was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder, as well as > Communication Disorder, last month. I had my appointment today at the > Social Security office to apply for SSI. I was kind of in awe to hear > that it could take up to 6 months before I will hear anything. > > I guess I should have expected that, but I had EVERYTHING possible > with me, and gave them copies. The reports from the speech therapist, > school psychologist, and the preschool teacher. I know that they have > to have someone look over all of it, but my goodness - I practically > SPELLED it out for them, and all she could tell me was " it looks like > he'll qualify. " > > I should be thankful that this is all that is frustrating me right > now. LOL. He's been in pre-school for 2 weeks now, and already I'm > seeing little bits of progress here and there. But, all it's been > is " hurry up and wait " since I tried to get everything going (with > testing and such) since last Spring. > When I applied for my sons SSI they also told me that it could take that long, but in most cases it does not. I applied on Sept 4, 2005 and I got my first check even before I got my approval letter on Oct. 20. The intake worker isnt the one who makes the decision they just take your info, I had the same questions, Also don't let people tell you these ridiculous storys about how many years they had to wait because they go by a totally differant criteria for children than they do with adults. I can't imagine you wont get approved. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 To get SS for a child, that child has to be severely disabled and the disability has to severely impact that child's life. Also, that child has to have less than 2000$ in their name for accounts and money. The parents can not have a very high income at all either. My son is 17. He has had ADHD and Aspergers diagnosises a long time. I never went to SS, but called once and asked many people as well as I belong to a few SS D lists online and found out he probably will not be able to get it. He might when he turns 18. I am still not sure though. in IL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 To get SS for a child, that child has to be severely disabled and the disability has to severely impact that child's life. Also, that child has to have less than 2000$ in their name for accounts and money. The parents can not have a very high income at all either. My son is 17. He has had ADHD and Aspergers diagnosises a long time. I never went to SS, but called once and asked many people as well as I belong to a few SS D lists online and found out he probably will not be able to get it. He might when he turns 18. I am still not sure though. in IL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 I was told our kids would not qualifiy for SSI. My daughter has Aspergers, ADHD, and Anxiety. Is SSI income based? I am really unsure of this. I am so worried about losing my job because of all the days I must take off for her. I even have a hard time making phone calls at work and all of the phone calls I make are for my daughter. At lease my daughter was approved for medical. I will see how long that lasts. Please keep be updated on this and let me know what they decide. Good Luck, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 Good Luck with SSI. is 18 and we're on our 6th ReApplication and Appeal! SSI keeps telling us that AS IS NOT a disability! K My Size Barbie Fashions by Rainysnana can be found at my store at The Doll Pagehttp://www.rainysnana.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 You are lucky, it might seem. I’ve tried to get SSI for my autistic son with all the paperwork and they did not even look at his charts and tests they just plain denied me and I’m a single mom. Did not EVEN consider his medical expenses. If you know a way around that I’d be grateful to hear it! From: Autism and Aspergers Treatment [mailto:Autism and Aspergers Treatment ] On Behalf Of Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:53 PM Autism and Aspergers Treatment Subject: Had SSI appointment today - little bit of a rant My son, Owen, was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder, as well as Communication Disorder, last month. I had my appointment today at the Social Security office to apply for SSI. I was kind of in awe to hear that it could take up to 6 months before I will hear anything. I guess I should have expected that, but I had EVERYTHING possible with me, and gave them copies. The reports from the speech therapist, school psychologist, and the preschool teacher. I know that they have to have someone look over all of it, but my goodness - I practically SPELLED it out for them, and all she could tell me was " it looks like he'll qualify. " I should be thankful that this is all that is frustrating me right now. LOL. He's been in pre-school for 2 weeks now, and already I'm seeing little bits of progress here and there. But, all it's been is " hurry up and wait " since I tried to get everything going (with testing and such) since last Spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 In a message dated 9/30/2006 8:18:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Laha1960@... writes: He might when he turns 18. Dear , Social security loves to give SSD when the diagnoses is before 22. I never got it till my daughter was 34 and they were so happy and helpful. I think if the SSD isn't too high, he'd get SSI too. Francine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 try any way my kids both get it and they are adhd pdd and mr .make sure you have all the documentation from the drs that is always helpful and they give checklists on what they can and cant do and how it affects his life he may be able to get it but it will go throuh you as a designee payee and then when he is 18 it will go to him they cant have any type of income /assets over 2100 a month (i am in pa) as long as it is under that they willl get the full amount over that he will get an adjusted payment .b4 18 they go by parents income.for the most part they always refuse the first time but if all is documented you can get it .it just may take a fight ..my kids got it on the first try and at the time my one son got it he was developmentally delayed and adhd and that was all .it is a great asset to have so if denied fight for it and maybe even get an advocate to help you get what your child needs . good luck Laha1960@... wrote: To get SS for a child, that child has to be severely disabled and the disability has to severely impact that child's life. Also, that child has to have less than 2000$ in their name for accounts and money. The parents can not have a very high income at all either. My son is 17. He has had ADHD and Aspergers diagnosises a long time. I never went to SS, but called once and asked many people as well as I belong to a few SS D lists online and found out he probably will not be able to get it. He might when he turns 18. I am still not sure though. in IL Hosted by Sparkle Tags vickie Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Don't be too discouraged, as if your son does wind up gettingSSI, you should get the moneys from the date you applied.They will send a check retroactive to the application date.But, remember, too, that they have you report each yearon how you spent all of the money. --- I think they mustbe trained on making applicants and/or their parentsfeel like crap when they come in. --- Hang in there!Blessings,Lee >> My son, Owen, was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder, as well as > Communication Disorder, last month. I had my appointment today at the > Social Security office to apply for SSI. I was kind of in awe to hear > that it could take up to 6 months before I will hear anything.> > I guess I should have expected that, but I had EVERYTHING possible > with me, and gave them copies. The reports from the speech therapist, > school psychologist, and the preschool teacher. I know that they have > to have someone look over all of it, but my goodness - I practically > SPELLED it out for them, and all she could tell me was "it looks like > he'll qualify." > > I should be thankful that this is all that is frustrating me right > now. LOL. He's been in pre-school for 2 weeks now, and already I'm > seeing little bits of progress here and there. But, all it's been > is "hurry up and wait" since I tried to get everything going (with > testing and such) since last Spring.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 I think you are brave to do this without an attorney. The person you saw is not the real evaluator, this person takes in the information. We have an autism diagnosis along with PDDNOS and severe communication problems AND an attorney. We were turned down the first time (which is typical of SSI and disability issues), the attorney took most of the pressure off of me and shepherded us through the process. After an eval at the disability office by social security disability paid expert, the claim went through on speech/lang. disability and PDD. My guess is that social security disability is hoping to avoid the dreaded " autism " label because that is life-long. By admitting speech/lang and PDD, their hope is that he will outgrow his disability and they will not have to spend fed. funds for more years. It is not in the fed. gov.'s best interest to admit the extent of autism (labels on disability) as this hinders the cover-up re possible causes. It might be more helpful and less stressful to deal through an attorney. An experienced disability attorney works on contingency that the claim will go through. An experienced disability attorney won't take a case if he/she thinks there is not enough evidence of actual disability. His/her fee is approx. 30% of the amount your child would have gotten from the first request for disability to the time the disability is approved. This fee is taken out of the lump sum of " back pay " which is the amount of money that would have been awarded if the claim had been approved at the date of first filing to the date of actual approval. You will need to set up a separate bank account for the child and not co-mingle your funds in that account. This will be explained by the social security person when your claim is approved. The process from first filing, to first denial to final approval can take 8 + months. The hope is that you will go away and a lot of people do go away... especially if they have no advocate and are too disabled to fight for themselves. Good luck. We are so grateful that we had an attorney who took the time to meet our child and see for himself how our little person's autism has affected his life and will affect his future without an immense amount of time and effort and therapy. Priscilla in Kansas __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 I think you are brave to do this without an attorney. The person you saw is not the real evaluator, this person takes in the information. We have an autism diagnosis along with PDDNOS and severe communication problems AND an attorney. We were turned down the first time (which is typical of SSI and disability issues), the attorney took most of the pressure off of me and shepherded us through the process. After an eval at the disability office by social security disability paid expert, the claim went through on speech/lang. disability and PDD. My guess is that social security disability is hoping to avoid the dreaded " autism " label because that is life-long. By admitting speech/lang and PDD, their hope is that he will outgrow his disability and they will not have to spend fed. funds for more years. It is not in the fed. gov.'s best interest to admit the extent of autism (labels on disability) as this hinders the cover-up re possible causes. It might be more helpful and less stressful to deal through an attorney. An experienced disability attorney works on contingency that the claim will go through. An experienced disability attorney won't take a case if he/she thinks there is not enough evidence of actual disability. His/her fee is approx. 30% of the amount your child would have gotten from the first request for disability to the time the disability is approved. This fee is taken out of the lump sum of " back pay " which is the amount of money that would have been awarded if the claim had been approved at the date of first filing to the date of actual approval. You will need to set up a separate bank account for the child and not co-mingle your funds in that account. This will be explained by the social security person when your claim is approved. The process from first filing, to first denial to final approval can take 8 + months. The hope is that you will go away and a lot of people do go away... especially if they have no advocate and are too disabled to fight for themselves. Good luck. We are so grateful that we had an attorney who took the time to meet our child and see for himself how our little person's autism has affected his life and will affect his future without an immense amount of time and effort and therapy. Priscilla in Kansas __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Most kids are not eligible for SSI until they are 18. I started the process with her the month before she turned 18 at the advice of her special education teacher. It was a good suggestion, because when she finally qualified they paid her retroactive from the 18th birthday. Before kids are 18 qualification goes on parent income and significant need. After they are 18, parent income no longer is a consideration...only doctor diagnosis, mental assessments, and the child's assetts. I am a single mom and it has been a long road for us both, but she is living on her own now. While she still depends on me to make sure that her bills are paid (SSI only gives her $402 a month), she is able to get herself up, get ready for school, and goes to college part time with passing grades now. Keep the faith!anna90981978 <anna90981978@...> wrote: I was told our kids would not qualifiy for SSI. My daughter has Aspergers, ADHD, and Anxiety. Is SSI income based? I am really unsure of this. I am so worried about losing my job because of all the days I must take off for her. I even have a hard time making phone calls at work and all of the phone calls I make are for my daughter. At lease my daughter was approved for medical. I will see how long that lasts. Please keep be updated on this and let me know what they decide. Good Luck, Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Most kids are not eligible for SSI until they are 18. I started the process with her the month before she turned 18 at the advice of her special education teacher. It was a good suggestion, because when she finally qualified they paid her retroactive from the 18th birthday. Before kids are 18 qualification goes on parent income and significant need. After they are 18, parent income no longer is a consideration...only doctor diagnosis, mental assessments, and the child's assetts. I am a single mom and it has been a long road for us both, but she is living on her own now. While she still depends on me to make sure that her bills are paid (SSI only gives her $402 a month), she is able to get herself up, get ready for school, and goes to college part time with passing grades now. Keep the faith!anna90981978 <anna90981978@...> wrote: I was told our kids would not qualifiy for SSI. My daughter has Aspergers, ADHD, and Anxiety. Is SSI income based? I am really unsure of this. I am so worried about losing my job because of all the days I must take off for her. I even have a hard time making phone calls at work and all of the phone calls I make are for my daughter. At lease my daughter was approved for medical. I will see how long that lasts. Please keep be updated on this and let me know what they decide. Good Luck, Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 In a message dated 9/30/2006 11:23:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, LeeMail4@... writes: But, remember, too, that they have you report each yearon how you spent all of the money. This is a very simple process, the representative payee form for the year. And they don't scrutinize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 In a message dated 9/30/2006 11:23:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, LeeMail4@... writes: But, remember, too, that they have you report each yearon how you spent all of the money. This is a very simple process, the representative payee form for the year. And they don't scrutinize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 I'd reapply persistently. Do you get medicaid? You might also ask to speak to a supervisor, and if that doesn't work, your congressperson. In a message dated 9/30/2006 11:25:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, joycrosby@... writes: they did not even look at his charts and tests they just plain denied me and I’m a single mom. Did not EVEN consider his medical expenses. If you know a way around that I’d be grateful to hear it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 My daughter already gets SSI of some type because her father passed away. Then i work a full-time job so i would think my income was too high. During the year I would say her income is over 10,000 because of the SSI from her father. I did make the phone call to them and they said our income is too high. Should i apply anyway. Most of the time she is ok. We have learned ways to cope over the years. She is now 9 year old. We acually just found out her diagnosis of Aspergers,ADHD, and anxiety. Until then i just thought she was just different. We did apply for medical assistance from welfare and she was approved temp. until social security approves her for sure. Will social security review her then to see if she qualifies for anything else when they look over the medical assitance paper work? My medical pays for almost none of her treatment so that is why i tried medical assistance. It really stinks. I was paying for it all myself untill one of her docs told me to try medical assistance. And also the school is no help. My daughter is really smart gets 100's on all her tests so i would think they may say no. Her problems did esculate last year and her grades did drop but since the new school year started she has got nothing but 100's on everything. The school should be able to offer a lot of the services I am now paying for but they are just so hard to deal with. They keep saying she is too smart. We spend a lot of time going over what she learns in school at home because she wants those 100's. I should also add she is now on medication and they have already helped. I think they have made her even more of a perfectionist. I know she will have these things forever but with want she wants to do with her future, deal with animals, I think she would one day be able to have a career. Just wondering and a little confused. I would be grateful for any help. Thanks, --- vickie <blackfoot124@...> wrote: > try any way my kids both get it and they are adhd > pdd and mr .make sure you have all the documentation > from the drs that is always helpful and they give > checklists on what they can and cant do and how it > affects his life he may be able to get it but it > will go throuh you as a designee payee and then when > he is 18 it will go to him they cant have any type > of income /assets over 2100 a month (i am in pa) as > long as it is under that they willl get the full > amount over that he will get an adjusted payment .b4 > 18 they go by parents income.for the most part they > always refuse the first time but if all is > documented you can get it .it just may take a fight > ..my kids got it on the first try and at the time my > one son got it he was developmentally delayed and > adhd and that was all .it is a great asset to have > so if denied fight for it and maybe even get an > advocate to help you get what your child needs . > good luck > > Laha1960@... wrote: To get SS for a > child, that child has to be severely disabled and > the disability has to severely impact that child's > life. > Also, that child has to have less than 2000$ in > their name for accounts and money. The parents can > not have a very high income at all either. > My son is 17. He has had ADHD and Aspergers > diagnosises a long time. I never went to SS, but > called once and asked many people as well as I > belong to a few SS D lists online and found out he > probably will not be able to get it. He might when > he turns 18. > I am still not sure though. > in IL > > > > > > > Hosted by Sparkle Tags vickie > > --------------------------------- > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check > it out. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 i would like to meet with and my son another aspergers child between the ages of 5-7 in the overland park . or shawnee kansas area .. could you pass this on .. and email me if u know of a child in that age rage for alex to meet ..it would be nice for alex to get with a child his age and be accepted since he isnt at school thanks .. tammy and duane davis .. reguarding alex who has aspergers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Hi,SSI and SSDI can be confusing. But, simply put SSDI is a disability insuranceprogram, and you must have worked, gainfully employed, for a certain length oftime to even qualify for it. --- SSI IS for people with disabilities that have neverworked. They can get it under the age of 18 only if the parent/s income doesn'texceed their guidelines and they meet the diagnosis criteria. After 18, they are adult, and only their own assets count. Here is a list of links that explains both, including a screening tool. Lots of info!Hope this helps: http://www.ssa.gov/disability/ http://www.ssa.gov/notices/supplemental-security-income/ (screening tool) http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/11000.html http://www.ssa.gov/dibplan/index.htm http://www.ssa.gov/planners/index.htm social security benefits planner >> > In a message dated 9/30/2006 8:18:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > Laha1960@... writes:> > He might when he turns 18.> > > Dear ,> > Social security loves to give SSD when the diagnoses is before 22. I never > got it till my daughter was 34 and they were so happy and helpful. I think > if the SSD isn't too high, he'd get SSI too.> > Francine> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Hi,SSI and SSDI can be confusing. But, simply put SSDI is a disability insuranceprogram, and you must have worked, gainfully employed, for a certain length oftime to even qualify for it. --- SSI IS for people with disabilities that have neverworked. They can get it under the age of 18 only if the parent/s income doesn'texceed their guidelines and they meet the diagnosis criteria. After 18, they are adult, and only their own assets count. Here is a list of links that explains both, including a screening tool. Lots of info!Hope this helps: http://www.ssa.gov/disability/ http://www.ssa.gov/notices/supplemental-security-income/ (screening tool) http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/11000.html http://www.ssa.gov/dibplan/index.htm http://www.ssa.gov/planners/index.htm social security benefits planner >> > In a message dated 9/30/2006 8:18:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > Laha1960@... writes:> > He might when he turns 18.> > > Dear ,> > Social security loves to give SSD when the diagnoses is before 22. I never > got it till my daughter was 34 and they were so happy and helpful. I think > if the SSD isn't too high, he'd get SSI too.> > Francine> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 My son has been getting ssi disability since he was just over 2. He was diagnosed on his 2nd birthday,and we've been getting SSI ever since. I am a single mother with 2 kids and I'm a waitress. So my income's not that great. I was approved in a couple of months. The money really helps. I was approved in Alabama and then moved to missouri (where I'm from), to recieve better services in school. The schools here are great but the Dr.'s here are as bad if not worse than they are in Alabama. I waited a year and a half on a waiting list at the Knights of Colombus Devolopmental center at Cardnial Glennon Children's Hospital. It's supposed to be the best in the St. Louis area, and do you know what they told me? Of course Dr. Ultmann, (the Dr. in charge there) told me they're was really nothing we could do but plan to send him to a group home when he gets older. She said to think of it like sending him to college. She also suggested we try Adderal and risperdol. I don't think so. Dr.'s have become a waste of my time. I wish Dr. House was real. If I could get a Dr. to look at my and take all his symptoms into account, they might find they cuold fix some of them. But fixing our kids problems would result in profit loss for the drug companies, and we can't have that. Sorry, I've ranted on a little longer than I planned. Thanks for listening. Chrissy Mom of 6 autistic and Brenden 9 adhd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 My son has been getting ssi disability since he was just over 2. He was diagnosed on his 2nd birthday,and we've been getting SSI ever since. I am a single mother with 2 kids and I'm a waitress. So my income's not that great. I was approved in a couple of months. The money really helps. I was approved in Alabama and then moved to missouri (where I'm from), to recieve better services in school. The schools here are great but the Dr.'s here are as bad if not worse than they are in Alabama. I waited a year and a half on a waiting list at the Knights of Colombus Devolopmental center at Cardnial Glennon Children's Hospital. It's supposed to be the best in the St. Louis area, and do you know what they told me? Of course Dr. Ultmann, (the Dr. in charge there) told me they're was really nothing we could do but plan to send him to a group home when he gets older. She said to think of it like sending him to college. She also suggested we try Adderal and risperdol. I don't think so. Dr.'s have become a waste of my time. I wish Dr. House was real. If I could get a Dr. to look at my and take all his symptoms into account, they might find they cuold fix some of them. But fixing our kids problems would result in profit loss for the drug companies, and we can't have that. Sorry, I've ranted on a little longer than I planned. Thanks for listening. Chrissy Mom of 6 autistic and Brenden 9 adhd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 What is SSI? Is it something to help you pay for therapies, treatments, and possibly school??Thanks!! in IL > > My son, Owen, was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder, as well as > Communication Disorder, last month. I had my appointment today at the > Social Security office to apply for SSI. I was kind of in awe to hear > that it could take up to 6 months before I will hear anything. > > I guess I should have expected that, but I had EVERYTHING possible > with me, and gave them copies. The reports from the speech therapist, > school psychologist, and the preschool teacher. I know that they have > to have someone look over all of it, but my goodness - I practically > SPELLED it out for them, and all she could tell me was " it looks like > he'll qualify. " > > I should be thankful that this is all that is frustrating me right > now. LOL. He's been in pre-school for 2 weeks now, and already I'm > seeing little bits of progress here and there. But, all it's been > is " hurry up and wait " since I tried to get everything going (with > testing and such) since last Spring. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 god bless you anna .. and i will keep you and your family in my prayers god bless ./... from tammy with a 6 year old asperger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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