Re: Red Meat At Raven's Place

[Guest guest]

On 7 Mar 2006 Kate Gladstone wrote:

> Most sects of Christians actually ignore those " more stringent

> rules " [about not eating blood, about not eating certain kinds of

> animals, and so on] along with most of the other rules in the Old

> Testament.

My understanding is that these (the 613 Mitzvot) are not

obligations for Christians, there being passages in the New

Testament to that effect.

- s

[Guest guest]

Re:

> My understanding is that these (the 613 Mitzvot) are not

> obligations for Christians, there being passages in the New

> Testament to that effect.

Yes - though Christians (or most sects of Christians) do still keep

other mitzvot (commands) from among the 613 -

e.g., most sects of Christians forbid marrying someone of the same sex,

most sects of Christians forbid swearing/cursing,

and (as far as I know) all sects of Christians require keeping the Old

Testament mitzvah (command) found in Leviticus 19:18: " Thou shalt love

thy neighbor as thyself. "

How do/did Christians decide which of the 613 mitzvot remain

obligatory for them?

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

Christians began to set themselves apart in New Testament times based

upon the passages quoted below.

Even though modern day Christians freely admit that we have our roots

in the Jewish faith, it must also be admitted that the modern day

Christian faith is mostly populated with people who were never Jewish

to begin with (i.e. Gentiles). Thus we no longer follow Mosaic law

(since none of us in modern times ever had the law to begin with),

and consider Mosaic law as being solely for those of the Jewish

faith.

Some of the Christian churches do believe, however, that God's INTENT

was for everyone to follow Mosaic laws, so some of the old laws are

still adhered to.

But we all adhere to the Ten Commandments, which are reiterated in

the New Testament.

Romans 2

12 God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never

had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for

they do have the law. 13 For it is not merely knowing the law that

brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right

in God's sight. 14 Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written

law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their

hearts they know right from wrong. 15 They demonstrate that God's law

is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them

or tell them they are doing what is right. 16 The day will surely

come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life.

This is my message.

The Jews and the Law

17 If you are a Jew, you are relying on God's law for your special

relationship with him. You boast that all is well between yourself

and God. 18 Yes, you know what he wants; you know right from wrong

because you have been taught his law. 19 You are convinced that you

are a guide for the blind and a beacon light for people who are lost

in darkness without God. 20 You think you can instruct the ignorant

and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that in God's

law you have complete knowledge and truth.

21 Well then, if you teach others, why don't you teach yourself? You

tell others not to steal, but do you steal? 22 You say it is wrong to

commit adultery, but do you do it? You condemn idolatry, but do you

steal from pagan temples? 23 You are so proud of knowing the law, but

you dishonor God by breaking it. 24 No wonder the Scriptures

say, " The world blasphemes the name of God because of you. "

25 The Jewish ceremony of circumcision is worth something only if you

obey God's law. But if you don't obey God's law, you are no better

off than an uncircumcised Gentile. 26 And if the Gentiles obey God's

law, won't God give them all the rights and honors of being his own

people? 27 In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will be

much better off than you Jews who are circumcised and know so much

about God's law but don't obey it.

28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish

parents or because you have gone through the Jewish ceremony of

circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God.

And true circumcision is not a cutting of the body but a change of

heart produced by God's Spirit. Whoever has that kind of change seeks

praise from God, not from people.

>

" How do/did Christians decide which of the 613 mitzvot remain

obligatory for them? "

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Tom, for explaining how Christians see Jewish laws. Re:

> But we [Christians] all adhere to the Ten Commandments, which are reiterated

>in the New Testament.

Just out of curiosity, if you happen to know, where in the New

Testament do the Ten Commandments appear? I read the entire New

Testament some years ago, and saw some of them listed, but certainly

not all.

Also, from what I know about Christianity, it looks (to me) as

if most Christians have changed the content of one of the Ten. Most of

the Christian churches I know of use Sunday - not Saturday (the

Sabbath/seventh day) - as their day of rest and worship.

By the way, do Christian churches generally keep the dietary commands

that gave to non-Jews adopting Christianity: not to eat blood and

not to eat " things strangled " ? (Acts 15:25)

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Kate Gladstone "

" Just out of curiosity, if you happen to know, where in the New

Testament do the Ten Commandments appear? I read the entire New

Testament some years ago, and saw some of them listed, but certainly

not all. "

Jesus discusses some of them at length, so they are not listed out

concisely as in the OT. The presumption is that even though he only

discusses some of them, ALL still apply.

5

Teaching about the Law

17 " Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish

the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to

fulfill them. 18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear,

even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose

is achieved. 19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach

others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of

Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be

great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

20 " But I warn you-unless you obey God better than the teachers of

religious law and the Pharisees do, you can't enter the Kingdom of

Heaven at all!

21 " You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Do not murder. If

you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.'* 22 But I say, if

you are angry with someone,* you are subject to judgment! If you

call someone an idiot,* you are in danger of being brought before

the high council. And if you curse someone,* you are in danger of

the fires of hell.

23 " So if you are standing before the altar in the Temple, offering

a sacrifice to God, and you suddenly remember that someone has

something against you, 24 leave your sacrifice there beside the

altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your

sacrifice to God. 25 Come to terms quickly with your enemy before it

is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an

officer, and thrown in jail. 26 I assure you that you won't be free

again until you have paid the last penny.

Teaching about Adultery

27 " You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Do not commit

adultery.'* 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust

in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29

So if your eye-even if it is your good eye*-causes you to lust,

gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one

part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

30 And if your hand-even if it is your stronger hand*-causes you to

sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one

part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Teaching about Divorce

31 " You have heard that the law of Moses says, `A man can divorce

his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce.'* 32 But I say

that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful,

causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced

woman commits adultery.

Teaching about Vows

33 " Again, you have heard that the law of Moses says, `Do not break

your vows; you must carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.'*

34 But I say, don't make any vows! If you say, `By heaven!' it is a

sacred vow because heaven is God's throne. 35 And if you say, `By

the earth!' it is a sacred vow because the earth is his footstool.

And don't swear, `By Jerusalem!' for Jerusalem is the city of the

great King. 36 Don't even swear, `By my head!' for you can't turn

one hair white or black. 37 Just say a simple, `Yes, I will,' or

`No, I won't.' Your word is enough. To strengthen your promise with

a vow shows that something is wrong.*

Teaching about Revenge

38 " You have heard that the law of Moses says, `If an eye is

injured, injure the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets

knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.'* 39 But

I say, don't resist an evil person! If you are slapped on the right

cheek, turn the other, too. 40 If you are ordered to court and your

shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier

demands that you carry his gear for a mile,* carry it two miles. 42

Give to those who ask, and don't turn away from those who want to

borrow.

Teaching about Love for Enemies

43 " You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Love your neighbor'*

and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies!* Pray for

those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true

children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both

the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the

unjust, too. 46 If you love only those who love you, what good is

that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind

only to your friends,* how are you different from anyone else? Even

pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in

heaven is perfect.

" Also, from what I know about Christianity, it looks (to me) as

if most Christians have changed the content of one of the Ten. Most

of the Christian churches I know of use Sunday - not Saturday (the

Sabbath/seventh day) - as their day of rest and worship. "

I am ignorant as to how this came about.

" By the way, do Christian churches generally keep the dietary

commands that gave to non-Jews adopting Christianity: not to

eat blood and not to eat " things strangled " ? (Acts 15:25) "

To my knowledge, they are supposed to, specifically because the

Bible states (as I have quoted previously in a prior post) that the

life of a person or thing is in the blood. Yet you will find

Christians eating blood sausage and other such things.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/8/2006 2:02:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

One of the ways in which I read the Bible is as a handbook for living.

That is what the Book or Proverb is, a handbook for living. Most of the advice is still practical today.

[Guest guest]

> How do/did Christians decide which of the 613 mitzvot remain

> obligatory for them?

The law code was replaced with 'Love your God with your whole, mind,

strength and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself'- Mark 12:30,

in that all laws would come under this--if you love God and your

neighbor you won't break laws such as do not steal, do not commit

fornication, etc., though specific laws are spelled out regarding

fornication, murder, etc. The principle of the law becomes a major

factor, such as the law of adultery is expanded to include not

looking at a woman with passion (Mt 5:27,28)

One of the 613 laws that always stood out for me was 'Do not boil a

kid in it's mother's milk' probably meaning that it would be a kind

of cruelty to do so. So while Christians would not be under this

specific law, they would be under the principle. And though people

may play fast and loose with principles, a true Christian would not

push things to the limit and beg off by saying there is no law about

such-and-such. It's clear enough from a good study of the bible what

God requires.

>

> Yours for better letters,

> Kate Gladstone

> Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

> handwritingrepair@...

> http://learn.to/handwrite,

http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

> 325 South Manning Boulevard

> Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

> telephone 518/482-6763

> AND REMEMBER ...

> you can order books through my site!

> (Amazon.com link -

> I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

>

[Guest guest]

Christians are not under the 10 commandments, per se, just as we are

not under the law code of 600+ laws which include the 10. We are not

under the obligation to keep the sabbath, for example (nor the

sabbath year, nor the jubilee year). Gathering ourselves together for

worship, yes (Heb 10:24,25) but not the actual Sabbath as given to

the Jews and outlined in the law code. Principals of the sabbath and

the sabbath as a concept as it means to God (example: resting after

creation was a sabbath for God that we can enter into). Certain of

the laws, because they are still laws for Christians have been

repeated in the New Testament for Christians.

>

> Thanks, Tom, for explaining how Christians see Jewish laws. Re:

>

>

> > But we [Christians] all adhere to the Ten Commandments, which are

reiterated >in the New Testament.

>

> Just out of curiosity, if you happen to know, where in the New

> Testament do the Ten Commandments appear? I read the entire New

> Testament some years ago, and saw some of them listed, but certainly

> not all.

> Also, from what I know about Christianity, it looks (to me) as

> if most Christians have changed the content of one of the Ten. Most

of

> the Christian churches I know of use Sunday - not Saturday (the

> Sabbath/seventh day) - as their day of rest and worship.

>

> By the way, do Christian churches generally keep the dietary

commands

> that gave to non-Jews adopting Christianity: not to eat blood

and

> not to eat " things strangled " ? (Acts 15:25)

>

>

>

> Yours for better letters,

> Kate Gladstone

> Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

> handwritingrepair@...

> http://learn.to/handwrite,

http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

> 325 South Manning Boulevard

> Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

> telephone 518/482-6763

> AND REMEMBER ...

> you can order books through my site!

> (Amazon.com link -

> I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

>

[Guest guest]

I would defer with you on this based upon my own denomination. SOME

Christians may not consider themselves under the Ten Commandments,

others do consider themselves under them.

Tom

Administrator

" Christians are not under the 10 commandments, per se,... "

[Guest guest]

The purpose of the law was to lead to the Messiah, a savior. It showed

the people up as being sinful and in need of a savior because they were

not able to keep the law perfectly. Gal 3:24,25 says that the law was a

tutor leading to Christ, " but now that the faith has arrived, we are no

longer under a tutor. " Col 2:16: " Let no man judge you in eating and

drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new

moon or of a sabbath, for those things are a shadow of the things to

come, but the reality belongs to the Christ. " As Christians, we don't

observe any of the Jewish festivals such as Passover or the Festival of

the Unfermented Cakes, nor the sabbath. They are no longer required.

Heb 10:1: " For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come,

but not the very substance of the things, men can never with the same

sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those

who apporach perfect. vs 4: " for it is not possible for the blood of

bulls and goats to take sins away. " I don't want to go on and on here,

but spent a lot of time trying to convince his fellow Jews that

Jesus was the Messiah and that while the law had merit, he was not

trying to tear it down and discredit it, it is no longer in force

(sorry, Jewish friends, don't want to offend but since we believe Jesus

is the Messiah and that was the purpose of the law...) because Christ

fulfilled that law and replaced it with Christianity.

While the 10 commandments shows God's mind on things and many of those

laws are reestablished for Christians, technically the law is not in

force for Christians. No distinction is made in the bible, nor by Jesus

or or any of the New Testament writers between the 600+ laws and

the 10 which are part of it--it is all the Law. I don't want to tear

away at the value behind the keeping of the 10 commandments--I can

fully appreciate that, and not taking God's name in vain, not stealing,

murdering, and all 10. Also, the others of the 600--much can be learned

about God's mind on matters and what he values and is important and how

strongly he feels about certain things but TECHNICALLY we are not under

the law. Just want to make that distinction, otherwise, as Kate pointed

out, where is the distinction made between the 10 and all 600 as regard

still keeping part of the law (and why would we keep part of it if

Jesus came to 'nail it to the torture stake'-Col 2:14)?

>

> " Christians are not under the 10 commandments, per se,... "

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you there.

One of the ways in which I read the Bible is as a handbook for living.

This is because my church recommends we follow the Ten Commandments

and regard the other laws given to Moses as a presentation and

representation of what God would have had the Jews do and also what he

would have all mandkind do generally.

But the explanation you gave in your prior post is correct. I concur

with it.

Tom

Administration

TECHNICALLY we are not under the law.

[Guest guest]

>

> This is because my church recommends we follow the Ten Commandments

> and regard the other laws given to Moses as a presentation and

> representation of what God would have had the Jews do and also what

he

> would have all mandkind do generally.

>

I like this explanation, it's very nice. I think you are Lutheran? I've

found many Lutherans to have a very nice way about them, and a deep and

reasonable way of looking at spiritual things, such as you have.

[Guest guest]

Re:

>

> One of the 613 laws that always stood out for me was 'Do not boil a

> kid in it's mother's milk' probably meaning that it would be a kind

> of cruelty to do so.

Archeologists a few decades ago found that one very popular

mid-Eastern pagan religious ceremony involved boiling a goat, calf, or

other baby animal in its mother's milk and then eating the baby

animal. So perhaps the rule also means something like " Don't do pagan

religious ceremonies. "

Jews (traditionally) have wanted to make sure not to break this

rule even by accident - therefore the separation of milk-cookware and

meat-cookware in traditional/believing Jewish homes - where they don't

(for instance) let you have hamburger and a glass of milk at the same

meal or even within several hours of each other.

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

I am Lutheran, but there are significant theological differences

between the various denominations/divisions/synods of the Lutheran

Church. So what can be said of one Lutheran cannot always be said of

the others.

What can be said generally is that the Lutheran Church split off

directly from the Catholic Church and, except for a few significant

differences, follows the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Lutherans do not recognize Papal authority believing that St.

appointed no successor. (Catholics believe each Pope to be St. 's

successor.)

Lutherans believe people are saved by the grace of God and not by

deed. Thus doing penance for sins will not necessarily get you into

Heaven.

Lutherans do not believe that Saints can be created, nor do we believe

in praying to Saints. Only God, in Jesus' name, or in the name of the

Father, son, and Holy Ghost, or else to Jesus.

Lutherans do not believe in purgatory or limbo.

There are a few other things as well.

As I said earlier though, the Lutheran Church is factionalized. Below

I have listed three and have illustrated at least one difference

bewteen them:

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod is very strict nearly to the

point of puritanism. Women are not allowed to be pastors because the

Bible states that no woman is to have spiritual authority over men.

Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, to which I belong, is strict. (I was

baptized and confirmed/christened in this church but have leanings

toward WELS. Women are not allowed to be pastors because the Bible

states that no woman is to have spiritual authority over men. However,

women can become deaconesses and lead Bible studies provided a male

Pastor is given ultimate authority over the material and how it is

presented.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is liberal. Women can

become priests.

Recently, the ELCA has bonded with one of the large American Episcopal

churches because their belief and value systems are nearly identical.

The one issue that threatens to break them apart is the appointment of

homosexual male and female priests within the Episcopal church. Like

the Catholic church, the Lutheran churches prohibit this.

You will find that the ECLA has an open door policy about who may

attend services and take communion.

The LCMS allows anyone to attend services but recommends being LCMS to

take communion (because of the whole " when does bread and wine become

the body and blood of Christ? " debate between Catholic and protestant

churches.

WELS demands recommends you at least be Lutheran to attend services

but prefers you be WELS, and you cannot take communion unless you are

WELS.

Tom

Administrator

>

> This is because my church recommends we follow the Ten Commandments

> and regard the other laws given to Moses as a presentation and

> representation of what God would have had the Jews do and also what

he

> would have all mandkind do generally.

I like this explanation, it's very nice. I think you are Lutheran? I've

found many Lutherans to have a very nice way about them, and a deep and

reasonable way of looking at spiritual things, such as you have.

[Guest guest]

Oh, great! Thanks for the information. That law has always piqued my

interest.

>

> Re:

>

>

> >

> > One of the 613 laws that always stood out for me was 'Do not boil

a

> > kid in it's mother's milk' probably meaning that it would be a

kind

> > of cruelty to do so.

>

> Archeologists a few decades ago found that one very popular

> mid-Eastern pagan religious ceremony involved boiling a goat, calf,

or

> other baby animal in its mother's milk and then eating the baby

> animal. So perhaps the rule also means something like " Don't do

pagan

> religious ceremonies. "

> Jews (traditionally) have wanted to make sure not to break

this

> rule even by accident - therefore the separation of milk-cookware

and

> meat-cookware in traditional/believing Jewish homes - where they

don't

> (for instance) let you have hamburger and a glass of milk at the

same

> meal or even within several hours of each other.

>

>

> Yours for better letters,

> Kate Gladstone

> Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

> handwritingrepair@...

> http://learn.to/handwrite,

http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

> 325 South Manning Boulevard

> Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

> telephone 518/482-6763

> AND REMEMBER ...

> you can order books through my site!

> (Amazon.com link -

> I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the information.

> >

> > This is because my church recommends we follow the Ten

Commandments

> > and regard the other laws given to Moses as a presentation and

> > representation of what God would have had the Jews do and also

what

> he

> > would have all mandkind do generally.

>

> I like this explanation, it's very nice. I think you are Lutheran?

I've

> found many Lutherans to have a very nice way about them, and a deep

and

> reasonable way of looking at spiritual things, such as you have.

>