Re: question about statins and muscle pain

[Guest guest]

Hi Group,

I can relate my joint and muscle pain directly to statins. Before statins I did not have joint and muscle pain that changed a short time after I started taking them. I can not narrow it to being worse with exercise or not because the only exercese the doctors will let me do is walk. Bill

From: pspa1234 <pspaeth12@...>Subject: question about statins and muscle painLipitor Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 6:00 PM

For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with statins, is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and if the latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in exercise? I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor, and my best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about CoQ10 within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain is more the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten years -- and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to the drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me figure it all out. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with statins,

> is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and if the

> latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in exercise?

>

> I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor, and my

> best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about CoQ10

> within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain is more

> the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten years --

> and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to the

> drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> figure it all out. Thanks.

>

The surest sign is not getting stronger as you exercise. For me the

pain was in my calves, similar to a cramp but without the muscle

contractions. Now 5 yrs later I fatigue quickly and the fatigue is

accompanied by dull, persistent pain in my calves + thighs. The rest

of my body seems OK but being unable to walk any distance leads to

weight gain.

be well

Art

[Guest guest]

In my case, it was the biceps and upper arms, very localized. It got so

bad that I could not lift my arms above shoulder height nor move my

hands behind my back at all. I could not put on a jacket because I

couldn't get my arms back enough to get into the sleeves. There was no

way I could exercise my arms, the pain was too bad. It was almost like

a joint pain, but very definitely in the muscles (which puzzled me

until I realized what it was). I got off of Mevacor because I had read

that it could cause memory problems, and I had found myself forgetting

customers' orders, which was very unlike me. About two weeks later I

could feel my mind clear up, and realized that the arm pain was almost

gone. It was a year, however, before I could reach far enough behind my

back to tie an apron-type string.

Linden

Re: question about statins and muscle

pain

>

>

> For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with

statins,

> is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and if the

> latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in exercise?

>

> I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor, and

my

> best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about CoQ10

> within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain is

more

> the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten years --

> and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to the

> drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> figure it all out. Thanks.

>

The surest sign is not getting stronger as you exercise. For me the

pain was in my calves, similar to a cramp but without the muscle

contractions. Now 5 yrs later I fatigue quickly and the fatigue is

accompanied by dull, persistent pain in my calves + thighs. The rest

of my body seems OK but being unable to walk any distance leads to

weight gain.

be well

Art

[Guest guest]

In my case, it was the biceps and upper arms, very localized. It got so

bad that I could not lift my arms above shoulder height nor move my

hands behind my back at all. I could not put on a jacket because I

couldn't get my arms back enough to get into the sleeves. There was no

way I could exercise my arms, the pain was too bad. It was almost like

a joint pain, but very definitely in the muscles (which puzzled me

until I realized what it was). I got off of Mevacor because I had read

that it could cause memory problems, and I had found myself forgetting

customers' orders, which was very unlike me. About two weeks later I

could feel my mind clear up, and realized that the arm pain was almost

gone. It was a year, however, before I could reach far enough behind my

back to tie an apron-type string.

Linden

Re: question about statins and muscle

pain

>

>

> For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with

statins,

> is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and if the

> latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in exercise?

>

> I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor, and

my

> best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about CoQ10

> within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain is

more

> the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten years --

> and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to the

> drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> figure it all out. Thanks.

>

The surest sign is not getting stronger as you exercise. For me the

pain was in my calves, similar to a cramp but without the muscle

contractions. Now 5 yrs later I fatigue quickly and the fatigue is

accompanied by dull, persistent pain in my calves + thighs. The rest

of my body seems OK but being unable to walk any distance leads to

weight gain.

be well

Art

[Guest guest]

Hi pspa. I have not been reading this forum of late. If you are

female, then statins will only do you harm. They have never been shown

to help women.

Statins affect every muscle. The groups that are most commonly

affected are the lower limb groups. This is not surprising because

they are the muscles that bear your body weight and walking is an

activity that we are engaged in when we move around. The damage to our

muscle structures (which is now accepted by many medics as being

caused by taking statins) at a cellular level is profound. The cells

die because they can no longer turn food into energy... because the

production of a vital ingredient in this process (heme a) which is

only found in the mitochondria of all our cells, is inhibited in the

mevalonate metabolic pathway. This is where the statins act; early on

in the pathway and where several other vital substances are inhibited.

The effect of cells not completing the cycle of turning food into

energy is that they die. It is called programmed cell death

(apoptosis) and one sees this process happening at the end of a

natural life span. That statins cause our cells to mimic this process

should be all that any sane person would need to know about them

before tossing them into the trash... with the medic who prescribed

them. Lipitor, with or without CoQ10 appears to be a highly toxic

preparation and the best advice I can give you is to stop taking them

immediately. Yes, you may die of a heart attack, yes you may have a

massive brain haemorrhage. The fact is that we all die. What all of

the best unbiased research has shown is that lower cholesterol leads

to an earlier death. The crippling of an entire populations of

previously healthy people is a crime against humanity and every day

there is fresh evidence that condemns statins as deeply poisonous.

The criminals are the pharmaceutical companies and their greedy

partners in the medical profession. You owe it to yourself to get all

of the information you can. For now, we are free to look out that

information on the internet and governments have not yet found a way

to control that. When they can, you will be kept blind. The evidence

against statins is so compelling, one may well wonder if governments

are deliberately enforcing statin use so as to cull the populations of

the world.

I would rather have a good life and die peacefully (and quickly)

without the dubious benefits of statin induced muscle pain,

neuropathy, myopathy, psychopathy, ALS and a host of debilitating and

depressing side effects. You are free to choose your own pathway.

Consider this... I am not getting paid for every person I manage to

encourage to give up statins and obsessing over cholesterol, a

substance that is manufactured by your own body, in favour of

substance that is manufactured by Pfizer et al. The big idea here is

that Pfizer cannot charge you for the chemicals which your own body

produces. I believe it to be sheer madness that we call people healthy

once we have medicated them for life, with possibly one of the most

toxic chemicals ever produced by the pharmaceutical industry. Your

life will much shorter and far more unpleasant if you take statins.

Kind regards,

Jeff

On 2 Oct 2008, at 00:00, pspa1234 wrote:

>

> For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with

> statins,

> is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and if the

> latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in exercise?

>

> I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor, and my

> best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about CoQ10

> within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain is

> more

> the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten years --

> and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to the

> drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> figure it all out. Thanks.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

its always good to remind people about this study regarding why there

might be SKELETAL MUSCLE pain. phine

http://www.newsmax.com/health/Statins_Harm_Muscles/2008/09/26/134673.html

>

> In my case, it was the biceps and upper arms, very localized.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this. I do happen to be male (sorry should have given

my name which is ) and I am taking a statin primarily for the

anti-inflammatory effect because I just had an MI. It is enormously

difficult for me to process all the information and conflicting

points of view out there. Obviously there are people who have

terrible problems as a result of statins but it also seems apparent

to me that millions of people take them with little or no adverse

effect. It reminds me a great deal of my previous forays into the

topic of psych drugs where (as here) there are internet groups and

some medical professionals who are in favor with the internet groups

preaching the evils of the drugs, while at the same time obviously

there are millions of people who benefit from them and who, for

whatever reason, don't seem to experience the adverse effects.

I don't know where I will ultimately end up. My gut instinct is

always against prescription drugs. On the other hand, I am pretty

terrified just having had a heart attack, and even some otherwise

anti-statin folks I have met through the internet have counseled me

that this is the one situation where taking a statin for a while may

make sense. And my primary care doctor who is generally pretty

balanced and practices integrative medicine concurs, and tells me to

stay off the internet.

>

> >

> > For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with

> > statins,

> > is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and if

the

> > latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in

exercise?

> >

> > I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor,

and my

> > best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about

CoQ10

> > within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain

is

> > more

> > the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten

years --

> > and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to the

> > drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> > figure it all out. Thanks.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jeff, write a book. Please.

Bobbyhttp://geocities.com/flyinresorts/blog.html

>

> For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with > statins,

> is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and if the

> latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in exercise?

>

> I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor, and my

> best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about CoQ10

> within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain is > more

> the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten years --

> and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to the

> drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> figure it all out. Thanks.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi , I just want to say that my husband and my father both had

heart attacks with normal cholesterol readings. Another man I know

had a heart attack, had triple by-pass surgery, was put on statins

and told he should be good for another 10 years. Two years later he

had another heart attack. I don't think statins help prevent heart

attacks. I'm beginning to wonder just what they really do that has

anything to do with the heart?

> >

> > >

> > > For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with

> > > statins,

> > > is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and

if

> the

> > > latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in

> exercise?

> > >

> > > I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor,

> and my

> > > best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about

> CoQ10

> > > within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain

> is

> > > more

> > > the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten

> years --

> > > and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to

the

> > > drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> > > figure it all out. Thanks.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, when you want to know the truth, ask someone that has nothing

to sell you.

Bobby

> >

> > >

> > > For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with

> > > statins,

> > > is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and

if

> the

> > > latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in

> exercise?

> > >

> > > I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor,

> and my

> > > best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about

> CoQ10

> > > within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain

> is

> > > more

> > > the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten

> years --

> > > and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to

the

> > > drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> > > figure it all out. Thanks.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, the manufacturers of statin drugs state in the fine print that

their drug will not prevent heart disease. You have to read the fine

print.

Bobby

> > >

> > > >

> > > > For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain

with

> > > > statins,

> > > > is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups,

and

> if

> > the

> > > > latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in

> > exercise?

> > > >

> > > > I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on

Lipitor,

> > and my

> > > > best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn

about

> > CoQ10

> > > > within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg

pain

> > is

> > > > more

> > > > the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten

> > years --

> > > > and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to

> the

> > > > drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help

me

> > > > figure it all out. Thanks.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Thank you for this. I do happen to be male (sorry should have given

> my name which is ) and I am taking a statin primarily for the

> anti-inflammatory effect because I just had an MI.

>

OK. Statins are used in secondary prevention roles and are supposed to

bestow protection on the recipient. The do have an anti-inflammatory

effect but if you have had an MI, then clearly, statins do not protect

you against that event taking place because it has already done so.

The primary question, as far as you are concerned, is this... can

statins prevent you from having further cardio-vascular events. Many

proponents will say " of course " and " we know that statins will protect

you " . The jury is still out; in fact the jury have not even been

selected yet.

If statins can do what is claimed for them, a patient who suffers a

cardio-vascular event should not suffer any more of them while taking

statins. Explain this, an MI and the subsequent cardiac insufficiency

requiring a stent (procedure to put a supporting framework in the

artery to hold it open) so the patient is given statins. Required

another 8 stents in the period post statins for coronary artery

insufficiency.

Speaking for myself, I would tend to the viewpoint that statins do not

do what is being claimed so universally for them.

> It is enormously

> difficult for me to process all the information and conflicting

> points of view out there.

>

I understand your apparent dilemma but I do not think that there is

anything difficult about starting at the beginning and reading all

that you can... with a critical eye.

> Obviously there are people who have

> terrible problems as a result of statins but it also seems apparent

> to me that millions of people take them with little or no adverse

> effect.

>

Everyone who takes statins is damaged by them. I have reports of

people who have only taken a tiny number of doses and suffered

debilitating effects until the present time. The literature indicates

that muscle damage takes place as soon as the statins are begun. You

may be fortunate in having the damage remain sub-clinical for a number

of years (these are in the group of the millions of people, to whom

you refer) who have taken statins with little or no adverse effect)

and the physical manifestation of that damage may be an occasional

ache in a little used muscle group.

Don't mistake absence of outward signs, for evidence of absence of

damage. Pleas educate yourself. start by reading the erudite works of

professor Bruce Ames. He has written extensively about cellular

metabolism and the damage caused by the inhibition of heme a. Statins

inhibit the synthesis of cholesterol in the body. That inhibition

takes place in the mevalonate metabolic pathway. Unfortunately that

pathway is responsible for producing Ubiquinone (CoQ10) , Dolichols,

Prenylated Proteins and Heme A as well as cholesterol. Even were we to

suspend our disbelief about a substance that our body produces 50% of

in the brain, we must need our CoQ10, Dolichols, Prenylated Proteins

and Heme A... or else we must why are they produced in the body and

show that we do not need them.

Cholesterol is protective. It is required for the structural integrity

of every cell in our bodies. It has anti-inflammatory properties. It

protects neurological tissue in playing a part in the formulation of

myelin sheaths. I wont trouble you with the complex biochemistry of

the body at this stage. I will ask you to find out what the

substances, which I have mentioned above, actually do and what role

they play in the maintenance of the living organism.

> It reminds me a great deal of my previous forays into the

> topic of psych drugs where (as here) there are internet groups and

> some medical professionals who are in favor with the internet groups

> preaching the evils of the drugs, while at the same time obviously

> there are millions of people who benefit from them and who, for

> whatever reason, don't seem to experience the adverse effects.

>

Don't confuse different things here. Psychiatry is not an exact

science and the theoretical basis does not share the same solid

foundation as the theoretical knowledge about clinical biochemistry.

In more than 30 years work in healthcare provision, I have never seen

any person benefit from psychoactive/psychotropic medications. I

cannot deny that society has derived some benefit from suppressing

people with psychological disturbances but patients getting a chemical

cosh over the head does not equate to a benefit. For many years it was

considered beneficial to give seriously distressed/depressed patients,

electro-convulsive therapy (ECT). Who came up with the idea that we

should induce seizures by frying part of the brain of a living person,

in order to 'cure' them? It never aided any patient but it kept

society from having to care for the severely depressed person.

> I don't know where I will ultimately end up. My gut instinct is

> always against prescription drugs. On the other hand, I am pretty

> terrified just having had a heart attack, and even some otherwise

> anti-statin folks I have met through the internet have counseled me

> that this is the one situation where taking a statin for a while may

> make sense. And my primary care doctor who is generally pretty

> balanced and practices integrative medicine concurs, and tells me to

> stay off the internet.

>

Fear is what the drug companies like. They go to great lengths to

induce it. The campaigns appear to be concerned for your welfare but

the harsh reality is they want your dollar. When you are dead, there

will be another person with another dollar. Your medical practitioner

may well be a nice person. Ask them to show you how cholesterol is

inhibited in the mevalonate metabolic pathway. they probably wont even

remember such basic biochemistry from their days as medical student.

Tell me how you can give informed consent when you have not been told

what taking a statin really involves, because the danger of taking a

statin has not permeated the mind of your medical practitioner... if

it had you would now be fully aware of the risks you are running...

and you are not. Ask your doctor if it is true that one study found

that 71 people would have to take a statin for between 3 & 5 years for

one cardiac event to be prevented.

Doctors who are earning money from treating you will not want you to

arm yourself with real knowledge (internet derived or otherwise)

because they will lose a valuable source of income that is just repeat

business because once you take statins you 'need' them for life... as

the falling good health mark will testify. The levels that are

acceptable of the so-called 'bad cholesterol' (LDL) are being driven

ever lower each year. It is good con trick... soon you wont even be

healthy at birth and you will need medicating to prevent heart

attacks. I wont try and stop you believing what you will. I have no

panacea or snake oil to sell you. All of the unbiased evidence points

to low cholesterol meaning earlier death.

Death is the natural corollary to life and we should not fear it...

neither should we hasten it, especially in the name of making a few

fat shareholders fatter. The take home message is this: Pfizer et al

do not care about you or your health. That should give you pause for

thought. Drug companies are not altruistic corporations strutting

about the planet and saving mankind. They are constantly devising ways

of levering as much money out of you, before you become a carcass

loaded to the gills with their statins. Merck knew of the damage

caused by statins because when they patented Mevacor, they patented

the compound with the addition of CoQ10 because they were aware of how

much cellular damage their own statin cpould wreak on the organism

(you!) To press, they have never included CoQ10 with their statins.

Ask yourself why. Read the patent because it is in the public domain.

Come back and tell me after you have read it that statins are benign.

Kind regards,

Jeff

>

>

>

> >

> > >

> > > For those of you who can definitively connect muscle pain with

> > > statins,

> > > is the pain generalized, or only in certain muscle groups, and if

> the

> > > latter, do you feel it is worse in muscles that are used in

> exercise?

> > >

> > > I am at the beginning of this road, three weeks now on Lipitor,

> and my

> > > best guess (especially as I was fortunate enough to learn about

> CoQ10

> > > within days of starting on Lipitor) is that my present leg pain

> is

> > > more

> > > the result of starting to exercise for the first time in ten

> years --

> > > and admittedly without doing the proper stretching -- than to the

> > > drug. Nevertheless, I am trying to gather information to help me

> > > figure it all out. Thanks.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Bobby. ))))))))))

>

> Jeff, write a book. Please.

>

> Bobby