Re: Unplanned, impromtu blood test & its consequences

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for sharing that experience. One thing I learned about

where blood is drawn and where it's tested, are two different

animals. Couple of years ago I had a pap smear in Florida. It was

sent to a New Jersey lab, who either lost it or dropped it, requiring

me to have the procedure done again. When I asked why it was

sent to New Jersey, I was told that all specimens are sent to a

central location, then dispersed to various labs around the country.

This process ensures that each lab has the same workload. Nice for

them, but is the reason your lab tests took 28 hours.

Another thing I noticed is that your doctor ordered a CBC and then

discussed your cholesterol levels with you. CBC is Complete Blood

Count and does not include lipid profile (LDL, HDL & Triglycerides).

Good thing you fired this Dr. With his attitude and sneaky ways, he's

in the category of "rude, crude and abrasive" (and not trustworthy).

I encourage everyone to keep a detailed "health" diary; in outline form,

listing dates of ER visits, office visits, drugs, nutritional supplements,

what worked and what didn't, etc. AND to ask for copies of all tests.

Keep all of these in a folder and in a safe place. When shopping for a

new doctor, I make a copy of the "outline" and ask that it be placed in

their medical file.

When our PCP denied that statins cause memory loss, I gave the nurse

my husband's "health" diary, and ask that it be placed in hubby's file.

It showed that increasing Lipitor from 10 mg to 20 mg seemed to be

when memory loss and TGA started to occur. He stopped statins 2 yrs

ago; no more TGA, but still experiences some short term memory loss.

We've fired 3 doctors, plan to fire one more... trying to get established

with a naturopathic physician that is covered under our insurance.

Fran

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply Fran.

I might have made a mistake to call my blood test a complete because it did have the results of the HDL, LDL and triglycerides along with about 20 other individual blood tests -- I just assumed this was the CBC.

Re the pap smear tests -- you might remember several years ago when one NYC area lab was accepting pap smears for testing -- I believe there were 10's or 100's of thousands sent in. Well the news reports said the lab was accepting the payment but not testing the sample and giving a clean report.

I live in upstate New York (orange Co.) and my last blood test went to Long Island. I determined the timeline from the test report information.

Even though I fired my doc -- I called, asked for all of my records and it took more than a month to get them (incomplete). (I'd have been better off if I just started over with all new records). The guy at the office said he had them for me but it was going to cost me $25.00 but when I got there the administrator said there would be no charge -- she said it might be against the law to charge.

This was the doc group that was in the news because they couldn't access their patients computerized records from the management company. When they tried to get the hard copies they were locked out. The police were called and it eventually was sorted out. It sounded like someone wasn't paying their bills.

, , ,

*| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *|"To sin by silence, when they should protest, makes cowards of men." -- Abe Lincoln

Please visit my website at http://www.outdoorliaisons.com

TNT-Newburgh/

A-Case

"Work smarter not harder"

Re: Unplanned, impromtu blood test & its consequences

Hi ,

Thank you for sharing that experience. One thing I learned about

where blood is drawn and where it's tested, are two different

animals. Couple of years ago I had a pap smear in Florida. It was

sent to a New Jersey lab, who either lost it or dropped it, requiring

me to have the procedure done again. When I asked why it was

sent to New Jersey, I was told that all specimens are sent to a

central location, then dispersed to various labs around the country.

This process ensures that each lab has the same workload. Nice for

them, but is the reason your lab tests took 28 hours.

Another thing I noticed is that your doctor ordered a CBC and then

discussed your cholesterol levels with you. CBC is Complete Blood

Count and does not include lipid profile (LDL, HDL & Triglycerides).

Good thing you fired this Dr. With his attitude and sneaky ways, he's

in the category of "rude, crude and abrasive" (and not trustworthy).

I encourage everyone to keep a detailed "health" diary; in outline form,

listing dates of ER visits, office visits, drugs, nutritional supplements,

what worked and what didn't, etc. AND to ask for copies of all tests.

Keep all of these in a folder and in a safe place. When shopping for a

new doctor, I make a copy of the "outline" and ask that it be placed in

their medical file.

When our PCP denied that statins cause memory loss, I gave the nurse

my husband's "health" diary, and ask that it be placed in hubby's file.

It showed that increasing Lipitor from 10 mg to 20 mg seemed to be

when memory loss and TGA started to occur. He stopped statins 2 yrs

ago; no more TGA, but still experiences some short term memory loss.

We've fired 3 doctors, plan to fire one more... trying to get established

with a naturopathic physician that is covered under our insurance.

Fran

[Guest guest]

what a story!

I hope that your back is doing better these days .

I do believe (and there is consensus on this) that a lipid panel

should be done after fasting for at least 8-12 hours with no intake

of alcohol for 24 hours prior to the test. That was not your case (I

don't mean the alcohol, I mean the fasting).

The current LDL above 175 is high, even for a non-fasting test... LDL

can be measured directly or indirectly... we don't know the technique

used to measure the LDL and this particle is too important to be left

in the dark.

You mentioned a previous total cholesterol of 206. With any value

over 200 a full lipid panel should have been ordered. Knowing your

HDL-cholesterol is important. Even if your total cholesterol were

below 200, you could have a low HDL and that alone is a good reason

to implement lifestyle changes that help you improve your good

cholesterol.

I don't know how long ago you got that result but if you have no

family history of heart disease or other risk factors, and if the

lipid panel was normal, then having a full lipid profile every 5

years is advisable.

What impresses me the most is that in both cases (Total cholesterol

of 206 and <240), the first line of treatment was the medication.

What good is it to have consensus guidelines if we are not going to

use them?

Therapeutic lifestyle changes (TLC) are the first choice of treatment

for individuals with mild to moderate hyperlipidemia … they are

because they work! And we all know that…. So why a pill first when

adopting a healthy lifestyle empowers the individual to improve in so

many different areas other than health? Of course, there is a place

for the cholesterol lowering medications, but that place is very well

defined and in no way casts out the TLC.

I am sure many of you know about the NECP-ATP III guidelines.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/index.htm

It is common sense that we reduce saturated fat and cholesterol

intake, get physically active, control our weight, keep our bodies

hydrated and make sure that we have plant stanols/sterols and fiber

in our diets -at least in the form of a supplement (but even

supplements have to be well documented and backed by science and

quality control).

>

> A large oak tree went down on my property last year -- wiping out

one of my vehicles.

> While attempting to split part of the remaining stump I felt a

sharp pain in my lower back and it wasn't going away so I called my

PCP for an appointment/referral.

> I was in severe pain and as I walked from the parking lot to the

medical group offices I had second thoughts if I should have just

gone to the emergency room instead.

> After filling out the necessary paperwork I was called in to an

examining room, the doctor came in and I related what had happened to

me. He wrote several prescriptions, one for pain, one anti-

inflammatory and one for an MRI. I don't think he did anything else

as far as my back was concerned but he said " as long as you're here

we may as well do a blood test [CBC] since you haven't had one in a

couple of years. " I didn't know it at the time (~2:00 pm) that this

wasn't a good time for my blood to be drawn for testing -- especially

those individual test results that require fasting for 12 - 14 hours

and the fact that I was in such sever pain. I wasn't asked if I had

eaten anything that day. I don't remember fasting for my previous CBC

test either.

>

> After my blood was drawn, I was told to make an appointment and

come back in one month. I picked up my prescriptions, paid my copay

and limped out of the building to my truck and headed for the

pharmacy picked up the drugs -- and drove home to make the MRI

appointment. It took more than a week to get the MRI. The pain

killers weren't working so I went to the Chiro to see if I could get

some relief. About 3 weeks passed and I was feeling a little better

but I had to double up on the pain pills at times.

>

> I went back to the PCP for my appointment and we discussed the

results of the MRI (disk problems in lower lumbar region). Then came

the discussion on the CBC. He said my LDL was " very high " and he

recommended that I start cholesterol meds. I then asked " how high is

it " -- he told me and I think the LDL number was about ~ 175.

> I mentioned that I didn't trust the drug and that a friend had

severe side effects (diagnosed with Lou Gehrig's disease) from taking

a cholesterol drug. He respondeded that " they're very reliable. " I

still refused and he said I should come back in about 5 months to be

checked again to see if my count changed. Again nothing was mentioned

about fasting before the test.

>

> He also said that the test indicated that my platelet count was

low. This had showed in my previous test (several years) and he sent

me to an oncologist who checked my platelet count on the spot and

said it looked good. But I should come back in 3 months for a

recheck. I asked him if improper handing of my blood could have

skewed the results. He said yes and explained why. My 3 month recheck

indicated my platelets were good.

>

> But his time he wanted me to go to one of the docs in his medical

group. I indicated I'd prefer to go back to the doc who pulls the

blood sample, immediately checks it in the office lab and give you

the results on the spot. He disagreed and said if I didn't want to go

to the doc in his group -- " then forget it. "

>

> On my way out I asked the nurse for a copy (2 pages) of my blood

test. She gave it to me and when I got home I took a closer look at

my " very high " results that turned out to be considered " borderline "

in the test results. My total cholesterol number was less than 240

(LDL+HDL+20% of the triglyceride number) the number shown on the test

results to be borderline. The test results also showed how many hours

my blood took to be tested at the lab (28 hours).

>

> My previous total cholesterol count was 206 and he wanted to put me

on drugs then too.

>

> What is the reliability factor of the various blood tests?

> Can any of the various test results be skewed if the blood samples

are improperly handled, stored too long (e.g., high temp.) from the

time it is drawn to the time of actual test?

>

> It goes without saying that more transpired after that particular

office visit (3 strikes) -- and needless to say I fired him after

other incidents and not having a very good feeling about the way I

was being treated.

>

> Be alert, be careful, be informed, educate yourself and don't be

afraid to ask questions (make list before your appt.) and make

comments and get a second opinion if you feel it's necessary. The

bottom line is it's your body, your health and you should be making

the bottom line decisions as to which chemicals are going into your

body and knowing all of their potential side effects.

>

> All of the best and thanks for listening,

>

> , , ,

>

> PS -- I'm new to this group (lipitor) and I appreciate being able

to hear what others experience when they take certain drugs and

suffer serious side effects.

> There's more to say but I'll save it for another chapter.

>

> PSS -- to those folks in my bcc list please visit the group

in " send to " -- I think you'll find it very interesting.

>

>

> *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *|

> " To sin by silence, when they should protest,

> makes cowards of men. " -- Abe Lincoln

>

> Please visit my website at

> http://www.outdoorliaisons.com

>

> TNT-Newburgh/

>

> A-Case

>

> " Work smarter not harder "

>

[Guest guest]

On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:36 pm, Primary Care Associates of South Beach

wrote:

> what a story!

> I hope that your back is doing better these days .

>

> I do believe (and there is consensus on this) that a lipid panel

> should be done after fasting for at least 8-12 hours with no intake

> of alcohol for 24 hours prior to the test. That was not your case (I

> don't mean the alcohol, I mean the fasting).

>

> The current LDL above 175 is high, even for a non-fasting test... LDL

> can be measured directly or indirectly... we don't know the technique

> used to measure the LDL and this particle is too important to be left

> in the dark.

> You mentioned a previous total cholesterol of 206. With any value

> over 200 a full lipid panel should have been ordered. Knowing your

> HDL-cholesterol is important. Even if your total cholesterol were

> below 200, you could have a low HDL and that alone is a good reason

> to implement lifestyle changes that help you improve your good

> cholesterol.

>

> I don't know how long ago you got that result but if you have no

> family history of heart disease or other risk factors, and if the

> lipid panel was normal, then having a full lipid profile every 5

> years is advisable.

>

> What impresses me the most is that in both cases (Total cholesterol

> of 206 and <240), the first line of treatment was the medication.

> What good is it to have consensus guidelines if we are not going to

> use them?

> Therapeutic lifestyle changes (TLC) are the first choice of treatment

> for individuals with mild to moderate hyperlipidemia … they are

> because they work! And we all know that…. So why a pill first when

> adopting a healthy lifestyle empowers the individual to improve in so

> many different areas other than health? Of course, there is a place

> for the cholesterol lowering medications, but that place is very well

> defined and in no way casts out the TLC.

>

> I am sure many of you know about the NECP-ATP III guidelines.

> http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/index.htm

>

> It is common sense that we reduce saturated fat and cholesterol

> intake, get physically active, control our weight, keep our bodies

> hydrated and make sure that we have plant stanols/sterols and fiber

> in our diets -at least in the form of a supplement (but even

> supplements have to be well documented and backed by science and

> quality control).

>

>

Are you aware of the purpose of this list? Do you realize that " consensus

guidelines " is a statistical tool and that individuals are individuals and

that the problem for many on this list is that they got negative side effects

from statins and their doctors effectively tell them it can not be the

statins causing the problems?

Are you aware that statins do not change all cause mortality? Are you aware

that fish oil does lower all cause mortality? Are you aware that statins

decrease several other things including CoQ10 which are essential?

As to the " full lipid profile " , almost all of these is an estimated test.

What should be ordered is a VAP test, hs-CRP, and homocysteine at the

minimum. (I order my own such tests at least 4 times a year and get a

CBC/CMP with what you call a " full cholesterol profile " monthly.) The

NECP-ATP III guidelines are designed to maximise the number of people

contributing to the drug profits. Most people will not change their

lifestyle and most doctors pay lip service to this component at the very

best.

Food sources of cholesterol have little if any affect on blood cholesterol.

As to common sense, saturated fat is not a problem and raises HDL. Saturated

fats like coconut oil, butter, and animal sources are healthy. Monosaturated

fats like olive are healty too. Grain sources fats like corn oil are

not-so-healthy. Hydrogenated fats (trans-fats) lower LDL particle size and

reduce HDL - avoid them like the plague. Sugar also affects cholesterol

particle size negatively while possible not changing either the total or LDL

and HDL measurements - avoid most sugar (corn syrup etc.).

--

Steve - dudescholar2@...

" It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. "

--Voltaire

[Guest guest]

Thank you Steve... you beat me to the punch... some info

below to add to your excellent advice (highlighted items).Fran

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~In addition to avoiding sugar, avoid the other white foods:

Rice, bread, potato, flour. All of these are the primary reason for elevated triglycerides. Pasta is usually added to these

foods, but is probably the least likely to elevate triglycerides.Replace with whole grains: brown/wild rice, oatmeal (oldfashioned steel cut is best), barley, buckwheat, millet, etc.

Cinnamon (C. cassia - spice isle variety) also helps to control

triglycerides and blood sugar levels. One or two 500 mg capsules

or 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon in/on your favorite food/beverage.

Note: The main reason most of us are/were eating a high carb

diet is ~ the recommended low fat - low cholesterol diet. When

told to eat lf-lc, we are basically driven to a high carbohydrate

diet which causes our triglycerides to soar, the primary reason

for Type II diabetes and low levels of HDL.

To replace sugar:

Stevia is the healthiest sweetener... I've tried stevia in powdered

and dissolving tablet form and didn't like it, but just purchased

a 2 oz bottle (liquid) with eye dropper. 3 or 4 drops sweeten a

12 oz beverage. No bitter after-taste. I was using Splenda, but

after reviewing the literature on all the artificial sweeteners,

decided to give stevia another try.

Good chart for recommended sweeteners: http://www.holisticmed.com/sweet/

(page down about 1/2 way for the chart)

Most diets contain too much omega 6 (n-6) from these oils:

~ Corn, soy, canola, safflower and sunflower oil

And not enough omega 3 (n-3) from these oils:

~ Flaxseed oil, walnut oil, and fish oil (including cod liver oil).

And foods:

~ Salmon, tuna, mackerel, scallops, herring, halibut, flax seeds,

english walnuts.

The optimal ratio of n-6: n-3 should be 1:1 or 2:1.

Most western diets are as high as n-6: n-3 ~ 20:1 (or higher).

, to enhance your understanding of the importance of

saturated fats I highly recommend that you read this article:

The Skinny on Fats By Enig, PhD, and Sally Fallon

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html

Re: Re: Unplanned, impromtu blood test & its consequences

Are you aware of the purpose of this list? Do you realize that "consensus guidelines" is a statistical tool and that individuals are individuals and that the problem for many on this list is that they got negative side effects from statins and their doctors effectively tell them it can not be the statins causing the problems? Are you aware that statins do not change all cause mortality? Are you aware that fish oil does lower all cause mortality? Are you aware that statins decrease several other things including CoQ10 which are essential?As to the "full lipid profile", almost all of these is an estimated test. What should be ordered is a VAP test, hs-CRP, and homocysteine at the minimum. (I order my own such tests at least 4 times a year and get a CBC/CMP with what you call a "full cholesterol profile" monthly.) The NECP-ATP III guidelines are designed to maximise the number of people contributing to the drug profits. Most people will not change their lifestyle and most doctors pay lip service to this component at the very best.Food sources of cholesterol have little if any affect on blood cholesterol. As to common sense, saturated fat is not a problem and raises HDL. Saturated fats like coconut oil, butter, and animal sources are healthy. Monosaturated fats like olive are healty too. Grain sources fats like corn oil are not-so-healthy. Hydrogenated fats (trans-fats) lower LDL particle size and reduce HDL - avoid them like the plague. Sugar also affects cholesterol particle size negatively while possible not changing either the total or LDL and HDL measurements - avoid most sugar (corn syrup etc.).--Steve - dudescholar2basicmail (DOT) net"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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[Guest guest]

Hello Steve and thank you for your message.

I hope I didn't fail to interpret the purpose of this list to be

having an open and comprehensive discussion forum where we all can

learn… not just complain… helping is more productive. From your

helpful sharing I still believe that is the purpose.

I share your idea of folks being individuals and not just a number

in a statistic report. I used the example of the NCEP-ATP III

Guidelines to illustrate my disappointment with the doctor's first

choice of action: THE PILL. The Guidelines clearly state the

implementation of therapeutic lifestyle changes first -and by all

means- to avoid the pharmaceutical approach.

I am not of the idea that people will not change their lifestyle…

that sounds like a death sentence. I like to think that people will

change their lifestyle when properly empowered to do so... and this

is something that they won't get in their doctor's office… there's a

bigger picture to that.

I apologize if my editing gave you the impression that I was

supporting the use of the statins. I am aware that statins do not

change mortality, I am aware of the benefits of fish oil (I take my

Omega 3 every day) and I am aware that statins negatively affect

several other things. Being a doctor myself, I've always known

about the side effects and that is why I have never taken them,

despite my severe family history of coronary heart disease. My

lipids are in control in a side-effect-free way. I would also like

to say that I know many doctors and nurse practitioners who admit to

their patients that the side effects come from the statins and they

work hard on their food choices and physical activity. I guess what

I'm going to see here is the sad story of those whose primary care

doctors are in the other extreme: total denial, like you describe.

For those folks, I am sorry.

My big concern with the VAP test is insurance coverage since I

believe it is a direct-to-consumer testing program … but then again,

maybe there's something there that I don't know and can learn from

you. I can see you have knowledge and financial control of your

health but most of my patients could/would not afford paying 250.oo

every 3 months no matter how important this is. Much less having a

Complete Blood Count and a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel monthly. I

have to respect that.

If the NECP-ATP III guidelines, or any other guidelines for that

matter, were designed to maximize drug profits is unimportant to

me. What is important to me is the use that I make of them. How I

interpret the knowledge they provide. There are so many man made

things that are helpful and hazardous at the same time that I could

drive myself crazy living my life in a conspiracy theory…. Even the

people who distribute the VAP test (LabCorp and Atherotech) report

their results in a form that complies with the NCEP ATPIII

Guidelines and they make explicit mention of that… is it then that

the VAP test was designed to support the enrichment of the

pharmaceutical companies by complying with those guidelines?… if

that is the case, then you are making a quarterly donation, but that

is not the point. The point is that you make the most out of the

resources available, you educate yourself, " listen " to your body,

improve your life and you share that knowledge with others… that is

what is really important.

I would like to apologize for having chosen the term " common sense " ,

when I recommended the reduction (not elimination) of saturated fat

intake. I didn't mean to pontificate as this is a highly debated

subject that involves individual characteristics. As for me, I know

that I have to be careful with them and the same is true for members

of my family and many of my clients, however that is not the case

for everybody. I've seen people who consume them and metabolize

them properly. Such an interesting topic to learn more about. Like

many other subjects, it cannot be generalized but individually

customized.

Thank you Fran for the friendly suggestion and the reading source.

> > what a story!

> > I hope that your back is doing better these days .

> >

> > I do believe (and there is consensus on this) that a lipid panel

> > should be done after fasting for at least 8-12 hours with no

intake

> > of alcohol for 24 hours prior to the test. That was not your

case (I

> > don't mean the alcohol, I mean the fasting).

> >

> > The current LDL above 175 is high, even for a non-fasting

test... LDL

> > can be measured directly or indirectly... we don't know the

technique

> > used to measure the LDL and this particle is too important to be

left

> > in the dark.

> > You mentioned a previous total cholesterol of 206. With any

value

> > over 200 a full lipid panel should have been ordered. Knowing

your

> > HDL-cholesterol is important. Even if your total cholesterol

were

> > below 200, you could have a low HDL and that alone is a good

reason

> > to implement lifestyle changes that help you improve your good

> > cholesterol.

> >

> > I don't know how long ago you got that result but if you have no

> > family history of heart disease or other risk factors, and if the

> > lipid panel was normal, then having a full lipid profile every 5

> > years is advisable.

> >

> > What impresses me the most is that in both cases (Total

cholesterol

> > of 206 and <240), the first line of treatment was the medication.

> > What good is it to have consensus guidelines if we are not going

to

> > use them?

> > Therapeutic lifestyle changes (TLC) are the first choice of

treatment

> > for individuals with mild to moderate hyperlipidemia … they are

> > because they work! And we all know that…. So why a pill first

when

> > adopting a healthy lifestyle empowers the individual to improve

in so

> > many different areas other than health? Of course, there is a

place

> > for the cholesterol lowering medications, but that place is very

well

> > defined and in no way casts out the TLC.

> >

> > I am sure many of you know about the NECP-ATP III guidelines.

> > http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/index.htm

> >

> > It is common sense that we reduce saturated fat and cholesterol

> > intake, get physically active, control our weight, keep our

bodies

> > hydrated and make sure that we have plant stanols/sterols and

fiber

> > in our diets -at least in the form of a supplement (but even

> > supplements have to be well documented and backed by science and

> > quality control).

> >

> >

>

> Are you aware of the purpose of this list? Do you realize

that " consensus

> guidelines " is a statistical tool and that individuals are

individuals and

> that the problem for many on this list is that they got negative

side effects

> from statins and their doctors effectively tell them it can not be

the

> statins causing the problems?

>

> Are you aware that statins do not change all cause mortality? Are

you aware

> that fish oil does lower all cause mortality? Are you aware that

statins

> decrease several other things including CoQ10 which are essential?

>

> As to the " full lipid profile " , almost all of these is an

estimated test.

> What should be ordered is a VAP test, hs-CRP, and homocysteine at

the

> minimum. (I order my own such tests at least 4 times a year and

get a

> CBC/CMP with what you call a " full cholesterol profile " monthly.)

The

> NECP-ATP III guidelines are designed to maximise the number of

people

> contributing to the drug profits. Most people will not change

their

> lifestyle and most doctors pay lip service to this component at

the very

> best.

>

> Food sources of cholesterol have little if any affect on blood

cholesterol.

> As to common sense, saturated fat is not a problem and raises

HDL. Saturated

> fats like coconut oil, butter, and animal sources are healthy.

Monosaturated

> fats like olive are healty too. Grain sources fats like corn oil

are

> not-so-healthy. Hydrogenated fats (trans-fats) lower LDL particle

size and

> reduce HDL - avoid them like the plague. Sugar also affects

cholesterol

> particle size negatively while possible not changing either the

total or LDL

> and HDL measurements - avoid most sugar (corn syrup etc.).

>

> --

>

> Steve - dudescholar2@...

>

> " It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. "

> --Voltaire

>

[Guest guest]

my doctor had never had a patient with side effects

from statins until me. He tried to make sure that my

life style was good, consulted dieticians etc. I was

doing everything eating well etc but still my

cholesterol was high so he eventually prescribed

statins.

A question to the doctor, 'are you afraid that you

may be sued if you did not precribe statins to someone

with high cholesterol who died from a coronary

attack.

--- Primary Care Associates of South Beach

<pcasouthbeach@...> wrote:

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I guess the question in the last paragraph was for me. I was trained

as a medical doctor overseas, therefore, to be able to prescribe any

medication I would have to validate my degree in the USA (which takes

a lot of time, energy, money and days away from your family). Since

my professional and personal interest is not in the field of

treatment but in the field of prevention and the focus of my company

is on wellness and education, I don't see a reason to start over

again just to be able to prescribe drugs. I like to think of myself

more as a health promoter.

So technically I cannot be sued for not prescribing the statins

because I simply cannot do it. The scope of our intervention is made

very clear to our clients who in any case come to our office to find

ways to limit or avoid the use of medications. We complement their

healthcare by supporting the areas that some of their physicians

don't: lifestyle changes.

However, in the world we live in people sue other people for a myriad

of reasons (in and out of the health field). Working under

parameters of Ethics, good manners and responsibility is applicable

to all of us who assist people, whether in a hospital, a car dealer

or in a restaurant. You know, treating others the way we like to be

treated.

Thanks for taking the time,

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

bless you .... caroline

Re: Unplanned, impromtu blood test & its consequences

I guess the question in the last paragraph was for me. I was trained as a medical doctor overseas, therefore, to be able to prescribe any medication I would have to validate my degree in the USA (which takes a lot of time, energy, money and days away from your family). Since my professional and personal interest is not in the field of treatment but in the field of prevention and the focus of my company is on wellness and education, I don't see a reason to start over again just to be able to prescribe drugs. I like to think of myself more as a health promoter. So technically I cannot be sued for not prescribing the statins because I simply cannot do it. The scope of our intervention is made very clear to our clients who in any case come to our office to find ways to limit or avoid the use of medications. We complement their healthcare by supporting the areas that some of their physicians don't: lifestyle changes.However, in the world we live in people sue other people for a myriad of reasons (in and out of the health field). Working under parameters of Ethics, good manners and responsibility is applicable to all of us who assist people, whether in a hospital, a car dealer or in a restaurant. You know, treating others the way we like to be treated.Thanks for taking the time,> > > > __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

....the objective of this group is not only to

talk about the side effects that many of the members

but as you know it is to also find ways of prevention

so that we are not slaves to the marketing of the

statins that we have been barraged with on TV and

print media.

Your input here is most welcome.

You mentioned in one of your messages about the life-

style changes that doctors are to speak with their

patients before prescribing a statin.

As you know, on all web sites for the statins there

is a link for doctors " only " . I have been in that

link and in deed it says that before prescribing the

statin a lifestyle change of excercise and diet is

to be attempted first. Most doctors do not do this

but go straight to the prescription mode.

Would you like to expand on what you may think is

the reason why most drs. would do this and not follow

the pharma. cos. own recommendation of changing the

patients diet and excercise first?

Thanks!

Ed - Moderator

> > > what a story!

> > > I hope that your back is doing better these days .

> > >

> > > I do believe (and there is consensus on this) that a lipid panel

> > > should be done after fasting for at least 8-12 hours with no

> intake

> > > of alcohol for 24 hours prior to the test. That was not your

> case (I

> > > don't mean the alcohol, I mean the fasting).

> > >

> > > The current LDL above 175 is high, even for a non-fasting

> test... LDL

> > > can be measured directly or indirectly... we don't know the

> technique

> > > used to measure the LDL and this particle is too important to be

> left

> > > in the dark.

> > > You mentioned a previous total cholesterol of 206. With any

> value

> > > over 200 a full lipid panel should have been ordered. Knowing

> your

> > > HDL-cholesterol is important. Even if your total cholesterol

> were

> > > below 200, you could have a low HDL and that alone is a good

> reason

> > > to implement lifestyle changes that help you improve your good

> > > cholesterol.

> > >

> > > I don't know how long ago you got that result but if you have no

> > > family history of heart disease or other risk factors, and if the

> > > lipid panel was normal, then having a full lipid profile every 5

> > > years is advisable.

> > >

> > > What impresses me the most is that in both cases (Total

> cholesterol

> > > of 206 and <240), the first line of treatment was the medication.

> > > What good is it to have consensus guidelines if we are not going

> to

> > > use them?

> > > Therapeutic lifestyle changes (TLC) are the first choice of

> treatment

> > > for individuals with mild to moderate hyperlipidemia … they are

> > > because they work! And we all know that…. So why a pill first

> when

> > > adopting a healthy lifestyle empowers the individual to improve

> in so

> > > many different areas other than health? Of course, there is a

> place

> > > for the cholesterol lowering medications, but that place is very

> well

> > > defined and in no way casts out the TLC.

> > >

> > > I am sure many of you know about the NECP-ATP III guidelines.

> > > http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/index.htm

> > >

> > > It is common sense that we reduce saturated fat and cholesterol

> > > intake, get physically active, control our weight, keep our

> bodies

> > > hydrated and make sure that we have plant stanols/sterols and

> fiber

> > > in our diets -at least in the form of a supplement (but even

> > > supplements have to be well documented and backed by science and

> > > quality control).

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Are you aware of the purpose of this list? Do you realize

> that " consensus

> > guidelines " is a statistical tool and that individuals are

> individuals and

> > that the problem for many on this list is that they got negative

> side effects

> > from statins and their doctors effectively tell them it can not be

> the

> > statins causing the problems?

> >

> > Are you aware that statins do not change all cause mortality? Are

> you aware

> > that fish oil does lower all cause mortality? Are you aware that

> statins

> > decrease several other things including CoQ10 which are essential?

> >

> > As to the " full lipid profile " , almost all of these is an

> estimated test.

> > What should be ordered is a VAP test, hs-CRP, and homocysteine at

> the

> > minimum. (I order my own such tests at least 4 times a year and

> get a

> > CBC/CMP with what you call a " full cholesterol profile " monthly.)

> The

> > NECP-ATP III guidelines are designed to maximise the number of

> people

> > contributing to the drug profits. Most people will not change

> their

> > lifestyle and most doctors pay lip service to this component at

> the very

> > best.

> >

> > Food sources of cholesterol have little if any affect on blood

> cholesterol.

> > As to common sense, saturated fat is not a problem and raises

> HDL. Saturated

> > fats like coconut oil, butter, and animal sources are healthy.

> Monosaturated

> > fats like olive are healty too. Grain sources fats like corn oil

> are

> > not-so-healthy. Hydrogenated fats (trans-fats) lower LDL particle

> size and

> > reduce HDL - avoid them like the plague. Sugar also affects

> cholesterol

> > particle size negatively while possible not changing either the

> total or LDL

> > and HDL measurements - avoid most sugar (corn syrup etc.).

> >

> > --

> >

> > Steve - dudescholar2@

> >

> > " It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. "

> > --Voltaire

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 06 August 2006 9:25 pm, Primary Care Associates of South Beach

wrote:

> Hello Steve and thank you for your message.

,

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

> I hope I didn't fail to interpret the purpose of this list to be

> having an open and comprehensive discussion forum where we all can

> learn… not just complain… helping is more productive. From your

> helpful sharing I still believe that is the purpose.

>

> I share your idea of folks being individuals and not just a number

> in a statistic report. I used the example of the NCEP-ATP III

> Guidelines to illustrate my disappointment with the doctor's first

> choice of action: THE PILL. The Guidelines clearly state the

> implementation of therapeutic lifestyle changes first -and by all

> means- to avoid the pharmaceutical approach.

>

> I am not of the idea that people will not change their lifestyle…

> that sounds like a death sentence. I like to think that people will

> change their lifestyle when properly empowered to do so... and this

> is something that they won't get in their doctor's office… there's a

> bigger picture to that.

>

> I apologize if my editing gave you the impression that I was

> supporting the use of the statins. I am aware that statins do not

> change mortality, I am aware of the benefits of fish oil (I take my

> Omega 3 every day) and I am aware that statins negatively affect

> several other things. Being a doctor myself, I've always known

> about the side effects and that is why I have never taken them,

> despite my severe family history of coronary heart disease. My

> lipids are in control in a side-effect-free way. I would also like

> to say that I know many doctors and nurse practitioners who admit to

> their patients that the side effects come from the statins and they

> work hard on their food choices and physical activity. I guess what

> I'm going to see here is the sad story of those whose primary care

> doctors are in the other extreme: total denial, like you describe.

> For those folks, I am sorry.

>

> My big concern with the VAP test is insurance coverage since I

> believe it is a direct-to-consumer testing program … but then again,

> maybe there's something there that I don't know and can learn from

> you. I can see you have knowledge and financial control of your

> health but most of my patients could/would not afford paying 250.oo

> every 3 months no matter how important this is. Much less having a

> Complete Blood Count and a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel monthly. I

> have to respect that.

I get my VAP test for $94 at directlabs.com. I typically get my

CBC/CMP+Cholesterol blood work from The Life Extension Foundation (lef.org)

for $35 (or in my case I bought 5 sets of tests for $28 when they had their

annual sale). Sometimes I get the same packaged as lef.org at directlabs.com

along with VAP, hs-CRP, homocysteine, thyroid). Twice a year I get the male

set of tests at lef.org which includes many a hormone test for total and free

- I have the joy of giving myself testosterone injections weekly so I keep up

on hormone levels. IF my doctors prescribed these tests, I would be required

to pay 5-10 times more for them.

As to the VAP, it diagnoses LDL particle type for one where small and dense

(type promotes heart/artery disease and large boyant (type A - healthy)

does not. I had to use Niacin 2.5 grams/day and remove all transfats and a

lot of processed carbs to get my LDL into the type A range. A standard

cholesterol doesn't cut it.

I also had fibrogin and several individual tests for specific components of

cholesterol to the search for " causes " as to why I had a heart attack in my

mid 40s with 4 98% blockages (the LAD is still 98% blocked and is bypassed

with a stented collateral) and other blockages. I've lived a " Mormon " health

code all my life with no smoking, drinking, .... and still ended up with this

unhealthy condition. I narrowed things down to small particle LDL as the

fundamental cause with trans-fats as a contributer to that problem. My

fasting blood sugar in low 90s.

> If the NECP-ATP III guidelines, or any other guidelines for that

> matter, were designed to maximize drug profits is unimportant to

> me. What is important to me is the use that I make of them. How I

> interpret the knowledge they provide. There are so many man made

> things that are helpful and hazardous at the same time that I could

> drive myself crazy living my life in a conspiracy theory…. Even the

> people who distribute the VAP test (LabCorp and Atherotech) report

> their results in a form that complies with the NCEP ATPIII

I've noticed that they have different high/low limits on the traditional

cholesterol (estimated) test verses the VAP test. I get to see the results

from both tests from one single blood draw. It's interesting to see the

variance.

> Guidelines and they make explicit mention of that… is it then that

> the VAP test was designed to support the enrichment of the

> pharmaceutical companies by complying with those guidelines?… if

> that is the case, then you are making a quarterly donation, but that

> is not the point. The point is that you make the most out of the

> resources available, you educate yourself, " listen " to your body,

> improve your life and you share that knowledge with others… that is

> what is really important.

>

> I would like to apologize for having chosen the term " common sense " ,

> when I recommended the reduction (not elimination) of saturated fat

> intake. I didn't mean to pontificate as this is a highly debated

> subject that involves individual characteristics. As for me, I know

> that I have to be careful with them and the same is true for members

> of my family and many of my clients, however that is not the case

> for everybody. I've seen people who consume them and metabolize

> them properly. Such an interesting topic to learn more about. Like

> many other subjects, it cannot be generalized but individually

> customized.

>

> Thank you Fran for the friendly suggestion and the reading source.

>

>

I'm one to get my needs for information well researched and then to take

action. In addition to items I recommend with respect to supplements and

nutrition, I've also done a series of EDTA IV treatments and get additional

maintenance IVs at 1-2 a month. I've finishing up a series of plaqueX IVs

and then will do one of them a month. None of this is mainstream and appears

to potentially be far cheaper solutions than traditional angioplasty and

CABG.

Steve - dudescholar2@...

" What luck for rulers, that men do not think. "

--Adolph Hitler

>

> > > what a story!

> > > I hope that your back is doing better these days .

> > >

> > > I do believe (and there is consensus on this) that a lipid panel

> > > should be done after fasting for at least 8-12 hours with no

>

> intake

>

> > > of alcohol for 24 hours prior to the test. That was not your

>

> case (I

>

> > > don't mean the alcohol, I mean the fasting).

> > >

> > > The current LDL above 175 is high, even for a non-fasting

>

> test... LDL

>

> > > can be measured directly or indirectly... we don't know the

>

> technique

>

> > > used to measure the LDL and this particle is too important to be

>

> left

>

> > > in the dark.

> > > You mentioned a previous total cholesterol of 206. With any

>

> value

>

> > > over 200 a full lipid panel should have been ordered. Knowing

>

> your

>

> > > HDL-cholesterol is important. Even if your total cholesterol

>

> were

>

> > > below 200, you could have a low HDL and that alone is a good

>

> reason

>

> > > to implement lifestyle changes that help you improve your good

> > > cholesterol.

> > >

> > > I don't know how long ago you got that result but if you have no

> > > family history of heart disease or other risk factors, and if the

> > > lipid panel was normal, then having a full lipid profile every 5

> > > years is advisable.

> > >

> > > What impresses me the most is that in both cases (Total

>

> cholesterol

>

> > > of 206 and <240), the first line of treatment was the medication.

> > > What good is it to have consensus guidelines if we are not going

>

> to

>

> > > use them?

> > > Therapeutic lifestyle changes (TLC) are the first choice of

>

> treatment

>

> > > for individuals with mild to moderate hyperlipidemia … they are

> > > because they work! And we all know that…. So why a pill first

>

> when

>

> > > adopting a healthy lifestyle empowers the individual to improve

>

> in so

>

> > > many different areas other than health? Of course, there is a

>

> place

>

> > > for the cholesterol lowering medications, but that place is very

>

> well

>

> > > defined and in no way casts out the TLC.

> > >

> > > I am sure many of you know about the NECP-ATP III guidelines.

> > > http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/index.htm

> > >

> > > It is common sense that we reduce saturated fat and cholesterol

> > > intake, get physically active, control our weight, keep our

>

> bodies

>

> > > hydrated and make sure that we have plant stanols/sterols and

>

> fiber

>

> > > in our diets -at least in the form of a supplement (but even

> > > supplements have to be well documented and backed by science and

> > > quality control).

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Are you aware of the purpose of this list? Do you realize

>

> that " consensus

>

> > guidelines " is a statistical tool and that individuals are

>

> individuals and

>

> > that the problem for many on this list is that they got negative

>

> side effects

>

> > from statins and their doctors effectively tell them it can not be

>

> the

>

> > statins causing the problems?

> >

> > Are you aware that statins do not change all cause mortality? Are

>

> you aware

>

> > that fish oil does lower all cause mortality? Are you aware that

>

> statins

>

> > decrease several other things including CoQ10 which are essential?

> >

> > As to the " full lipid profile " , almost all of these is an

>

> estimated test.

>

> > What should be ordered is a VAP test, hs-CRP, and homocysteine at

>

> the

>

> > minimum. (I order my own such tests at least 4 times a year and

>

> get a

>

> > CBC/CMP with what you call a " full cholesterol profile " monthly.)

>

> The

>

> > NECP-ATP III guidelines are designed to maximise the number of

>

> people

>

> > contributing to the drug profits. Most people will not change

>

> their

>

> > lifestyle and most doctors pay lip service to this component at

>

> the very

>

> > best.

> >

> > Food sources of cholesterol have little if any affect on blood

>

> cholesterol.

>

> > As to common sense, saturated fat is not a problem and raises

>

> HDL. Saturated

>

> > fats like coconut oil, butter, and animal sources are healthy.

>

> Monosaturated

>

> > fats like olive are healty too. Grain sources fats like corn oil

>

> are

>

> > not-so-healthy. Hydrogenated fats (trans-fats) lower LDL particle

>

> size and

>

> > reduce HDL - avoid them like the plague. Sugar also affects

>

> cholesterol

>

> > particle size negatively while possible not changing either the

>

> total or LDL

>

> > and HDL measurements - avoid most sugar (corn syrup etc.).

> >

> > --

> >

> > Steve - dudescholar2@...

> >

> > " It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. "

> > --Voltaire

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi: After trying Lipitor and getting headaches as a side effect and how expensive it was to buy, I started reading about Xango. It is a fruit called mangosteen that containes xanthones. Researchers have found that these xanthones act as anti-inflammatory and have anti-oxidants. People who have drank the juice have found that their cholesterol and high blood pressure have been reduced. You can read more about it on www.gomangosteen.net/johnandlupepadilla Padillacaroline <waves02@...> wrote: bless you .... caroline Re: Unplanned, impromtu blood test & its consequences I guess the question in the last paragraph

was for me. I was trained as a medical doctor overseas, therefore, to be able to prescribe any medication I would have to validate my degree in the USA (which takes a lot of time, energy, money and days away from your family). Since my professional and personal interest is not in the field of treatment but in the field of prevention and the focus of my company is on wellness and education, I don't see a reason to start over again just to be able to prescribe drugs. I like to think of myself more as a health promoter. So technically I cannot be sued for not prescribing the statins because I simply cannot do it. The scope of our intervention is made very clear to our clients who in any case come to our office to find ways to limit or avoid the use of medications. We complement their healthcare by supporting the areas that some of their physicians don't: lifestyle changes.However, in the world we live in

people sue other people for a myriad of reasons (in and out of the health field). Working under parameters of Ethics, good manners and responsibility is applicable to all of us who assist people, whether in a hospital, a car dealer or in a restaurant. You know, treating others the way we like to be treated.Thanks for taking the time,> > > > __________________________________________________>