Re: subtler features of AS

October 27, 2005

" Anyone else have to overtly learn rituals? "

I don't think I have learnt them yet. I suppose I've mastered

that 'how are you' is meant to be answered by 'I'm fine and you'

although I don't buy into it. I hate all these silly games and

rituals, I would never have got the door one. As for the leaving one,

it seems silly to me for someone to ask me to stay if they really

want me to go - this kind of communication makes no sense to me. I

have a habit of asking them if they are just being 'socially polite'

and then watch them squirm - why should I follow the illogical rules.

>

> There are some overt features of AS that I don't have. I'm good at

> small talk. I seek social contact albeit limited. I take care of

daily

> living activites. I'm not intensely hyperfocused on one topic.

I'm ok

> with environmentals -- noise, light, clothing. I'm ok at eye

contact.

>

> What fits with AS for me is being too honest, not knowing what

kinds of

> information is personal and what is public. I would ask questions

of

> other people say about how they met their life partner -- usually

public

> information. But somehow I kept asking questions delving into

things

> too personal and I failed to detect that my converstation partner

was

> irritated and offended until she marched off in a huff.

Retrospectively

> I can usually see my errors but not in live action. I was

soooooooo

> lonely as a kid. I wasn't unusually picked on but I was some. I

> preferred relating to adults. Once I became an adult people

perceived

> me as very immature. I was deeply wounded when my closest friend

didn't

> ask me to be in her wedding. She had a friend she had known for

only a

> year be in her wedding. Now looking back I realize that the

> realtionship was not mutual, it was unilateral. I needed her

> companionship but she didn't need mine. I gravitated towards

pendantic

> speech just because it was fun. It took a long time for me to get

jokes.

> In an office environment in the US there are " door rules " which are

> unwritten but are always understood -- except by me at first. If

an

> office door is open, you are welcome to approach the occupant and

ask a

> business related question or even limited small talk. If an office

door

> is closed, then you may NOT knock on the door under any

circumstances

> short of a major emergency -- such as an accident, a fire -- maybe

for a

> computer meltdown. If the office door is nearly closed, then only

> important business related exchanges are " allowed. " While I was

doing

> my masters, my major professor told me to come to him at any time.

His

> door was always open to me. I took that literally and walked right

past

> his closed door. It was only after violating these " rules of the

door "

> several times did I figure it out. Couldn't figure out why the

prof

> seemed annoyed. I wonder if others learned such " rules of the

door " by

> formal analysis as I did.

>

> Other cultural rituals were baffling. Say I was having lunch with

a

> friend and when the check arrives there is an obligatory " squabble "

of

> sorts as to who pays the bill. " Oh let me pay for it. " " No you

paid

> last time. " " But tomorrow is your birthday. " There are 3-4

exchanges

> before someone " wins " the argument and pays the check. Then the

other

> says " Ok, but I'll pay the tip. " This " squabble " is governed by

rules

> that are mysterious.

> Another baffling ritual is leave-taking. If I'm at someone's home

for

> supper, when am I supposed to leave? It is entirely up to the

guest in

> the US in initating the leave-taking ritual. The host may not ever

> suggest that you leave. You aren't supposed to leave too soon,

that

> would be rude. It's also rude if you stay too late. So say at

8:00 the

> guest starts the " leave taking argument " by standing up and

saying " it's

> time for me to get going. " The host is supposed to say " Oh you

don't

> have to leave yet. " Then the guest insists, to which the host

objects

> and says something like " just have another piece of pie and

coffee. "

> Then the guest insists on going -- thanking profusely for the

wonderful

> meal, and offer of pie. The guest has " won " and then leaves.

<whew>

> Many many times I've realized after the event that I had stayed way

too

> long. I believed the host's protests that I shouldn't leave. I

started

> the leave-taking properly several times in the evening, " I'd better

get

> going. " Then the host says " oh just stay a little longer. " So I

did.

> I ended up staying till midnight because I didn't understand the

rules

> of " leave-taking " properly.

>

> Anyone else have to overtly learn rituals?

>

> and the zoo.

>

October 27, 2005

> Anyone else have to overtly learn rituals?

>

> and the zoo.

>

I think rituals like those are better not learned.

I have always been given agonies of social ill-confidence by knowing

that polite promises of hospitality aren't kept to the letter and are

sometimes plain lies. Any reasoning beings should be able to learn

from the stresses of playing these rules that they are unworkable. It

is our mission to teach the normal world so by not working that way

among ourselves.

October 27, 2005

>

> There are some overt features of AS that I don't have. I'm good at

> small talk. I seek social contact albeit limited. I take care of

daily

> living activites. I'm not intensely hyperfocused on one topic.

I'm ok

> with environmentals -- noise, light, clothing. I'm ok at eye

contact.

>

> What fits with AS for me is being too honest, not knowing what

kinds of

> information is personal and what is public. I would ask questions

of

> other people say about how they met their life partner -- usually

public

> information. But somehow I kept asking questions delving into

things

> too personal and I failed to detect that my converstation partner

was

> irritated and offended until she marched off in a huff.

Retrospectively

> I can usually see my errors but not in live action. I was

soooooooo

> lonely as a kid. I wasn't unusually picked on but I was some. I

> preferred relating to adults. Once I became an adult people

perceived

> me as very immature. I was deeply wounded when my closest friend

didn't

> ask me to be in her wedding. She had a friend she had known for

only a

> year be in her wedding. Now looking back I realize that the

> realtionship was not mutual, it was unilateral. I needed her

> companionship but she didn't need mine. I gravitated towards

pendantic

> speech just because it was fun. It took a long time for me to get

jokes.

> In an office environment in the US there are " door rules " which are

> unwritten but are always understood -- except by me at first. If

an

> office door is open, you are welcome to approach the occupant and

ask a

> business related question or even limited small talk. If an office

door

> is closed, then you may NOT knock on the door under any

circumstances

> short of a major emergency -- such as an accident, a fire -- maybe

for a

> computer meltdown. If the office door is nearly closed, then only

> important business related exchanges are " allowed. " While I was

doing

> my masters, my major professor told me to come to him at any time.

His

> door was always open to me. I took that literally and walked right

past

> his closed door. It was only after violating these " rules of the

door "

> several times did I figure it out. Couldn't figure out why the

prof

> seemed annoyed. I wonder if others learned such " rules of the

door " by

> formal analysis as I did.

>

> Other cultural rituals were baffling. Say I was having lunch with

a

> friend and when the check arrives there is an obligatory " squabble "

of

> sorts as to who pays the bill. " Oh let me pay for it. " " No you

paid

> last time. " " But tomorrow is your birthday. " There are 3-4

exchanges

> before someone " wins " the argument and pays the check. Then the

other

> says " Ok, but I'll pay the tip. " This " squabble " is governed by

rules

> that are mysterious.

> Another baffling ritual is leave-taking. If I'm at someone's home

for

> supper, when am I supposed to leave? It is entirely up to the

guest in

> the US in initating the leave-taking ritual. The host may not ever

> suggest that you leave. You aren't supposed to leave too soon,

that

> would be rude. It's also rude if you stay too late. So say at

8:00 the

> guest starts the " leave taking argument " by standing up and

saying " it's

> time for me to get going. " The host is supposed to say " Oh you

don't

> have to leave yet. " Then the guest insists, to which the host

objects

> and says something like " just have another piece of pie and

coffee. "

> Then the guest insists on going -- thanking profusely for the

wonderful

> meal, and offer of pie. The guest has " won " and then leaves.

<whew>

> Many many times I've realized after the event that I had stayed way

too

> long. I believed the host's protests that I shouldn't leave. I

started

> the leave-taking properly several times in the evening, " I'd better

get

> going. " Then the host says " oh just stay a little longer. " So I

did.

> I ended up staying till midnight because I didn't understand the

rules

> of " leave-taking " properly.

>

> Anyone else have to overtly learn rituals?

>

> and the zoo.

OH YES. It's taken me a long time to get where I am and it's still

difficult. I am grateful for my NT husband to whom I can ask myriads

of questions about these complicated rules that he and other NTs just

seem to know. I have a hard time with the leave-taking ritual too!

I usually go when I see others going and when the hostess says to

stay a little longer she doesn't always mean it (though sometimes she

does, you have to discern which by her tone of voice, sigh.)so I just

tell her what a great time I had, thank you very much but I must be

going.

October 27, 2005

Anyone else have to overtly learn rituals?

,

I tried for a while and then gave it up. This was because I began to

realize that the stress of trying to decipher what was going on

outweighed the benefits of any " happiness " I might receive by fitting

in. Therefore it was best that I stayed away from social situations

and avoided the stress altogether.

When you think about it from a purely logical standpoint, there is no

good reason for socializing. The fact that you can get an " in " with

someone if they like you, or the fact that you can make them " owe you

one " if you pay for lunch is really pointless given that their

loyalties and debts to you can change on the merest whim. Or else

someone else can come along and overthrow you as " Number 1 " in their

thoughts.

I believe that " society " sometimes means " ficklenes " when you get

right down to it. What is the point of having a social system that is

not based on any firm and predictable order?

It does not make sense to me.

Tom

October 27, 2005

Has anyone ever noticed that if you are the only AS person in a group

of people that your own social rules are the only ones never to get

followed and are also the only ones to get found fault with?

Logic does not appear to play any significant or respected role in

neurotypical social structures.

Tom

Administrator

I have a habit of asking them if they are just being 'socially polite'

and then watch them squirm - why should I follow the illogical rules.

October 27, 2005

Maurice,

I agree with this statement:

" I think rituals like those are better not learned. "

And I have also had experiences similar to what you describe here:

" I have always been given agonies of social ill-confidence by knowing

that polite promises of hospitality aren't kept to the letter and are

sometimes plain lies. "

And again, I agree with this:

Any reasoning beings should be able to learn

from the stresses of playing these rules that they are unworkable. "

You last line, I believe, is of utmost importance for us all:

" It is our mission to teach the normal world so by not working that way

among ourselves. "

I'm sure any attempts to teach them will fail (because they will

either be unwilling to learn, or unwilling to accept our point of

view), but to continue to try is noble.

Tom

Administrator

October 27, 2005

,

Since the rules tend to change at every non-Aspie social event I go

to, I tend to take people at their word and sometimes go so far as

to tell them that I am doing so.

And so if they say " stay " I stay. If they tell me something is " no

bother " I assume that it's no bother.

I like to think it's a backhanded way of forcing them to be honest.

In other words, if they keeping telling me to stay but really want

me to go, I'll be happy to stay until they say " GET OUT! "

And if they continue to tell me I am " no bother " but really believe

I am hard work, I will wait for them to say " You're impossible and a

royal pain! "

I don't see what's wrong with anyone saying what they mean anyway.

I would like for people to tell me when my fly is open, or when I

have egg on my face, and I have no problem telling other people

those things when they need to be told.

I think though we would be hurt from time to time when being told

the truth the world would be a better place if people were honest

with one another. Being " socially dishonest " in the non-Aspie way

sort of gives people leave to be deceptive both in word and deed.

There ought not to be required an understanding of a non-definined

and ever shifting code as a test for social acceptance.

Tom

I usually go when I see others going and when the hostess says to

stay a little longer she doesn't always mean it (though sometimes she

does, you have to discern which by her tone of voice, sigh.)so I just

tell her what a great time I had, thank you very much but I must be

going.

October 27, 2005

>

> > Anyone else have to overtly learn rituals?

> >

> > and the zoo.

> >

> I think rituals like those are better not learned.

> I have always been given agonies of social ill-confidence by knowing

> that polite promises of hospitality aren't kept to the letter and

are

> sometimes plain lies. Any reasoning beings should be able to learn

> from the stresses of playing these rules that they are unworkable.

It

> is our mission to teach the normal world so by not working that way

> among ourselves.

>

How about this painful scenario: moving from up north to down south

where there is less directness and more hidden social rules to

learn! I had to add this major understanding: promises of

hospitality are just like saying, " See you later. " ! They have

nothing to do with actual invitations for you to come over or for us

to get together, MAYBE we'll get together some time in the future but

maybe not. On the other hand, they may hate your guts yet they'll say

it anyway. It's like what Jethro says at the end of 'The Beverly

Hillbillies': " Ya'll come back now, ya hear? " Meaning = 0

October 27, 2005

Sometimes I force people to be honest or reasonable in that way,

as well. I feel a little guilty about it, especially when I pretend

to be dumb, but I feel it's for a greater good and for their benefit,

too. Mostly, though, I have to admit, I try to follow their social

rules. I agree with what you and some of the others say about wanting

to change all these rules, especially when they're deliberately

deceitful and cruel to anyone that's different, but after all these

years of living in the world not knowing that I was AS or about AS at

all, I don't know how to go back to the way I was when I was younger

and unaffected and I don't think I would want to lose some of my

adaptations. I admire my husband so much because he's a popular NT

who uses his popularity to try and change peoples' narrow ideas and

he's always sticking up for the underdog. Since they like him they

really do listen to him and often gain a different understanding and

make changes, so I see the benefit of being like them but then using

that common ground to try and change them. Kind of like making

changes from the inside. Of course, I'm really not like them so maybe

I should stop kidding myself as you can't accomplish anything by

sitting on the fence (but it seems I have had some success.) But

maybe we can use both ways, depending on our personalities. I'm

happy to find out that we are great defenders of what is just (and I

find it especially interesting that most of us are

environmentalists. I LOVE that. Our poor world needs us for sure).

If there are as many of us out there as my husband says, and as I'm

seeing, we can really be a force for change.

>

> I usually go when I see others going and when the hostess says to

> stay a little longer she doesn't always mean it (though sometimes

she

> does, you have to discern which by her tone of voice, sigh.)so I

just

> tell her what a great time I had, thank you very much but I must be

> going.

>

October 27, 2005

WFTW... The point that most NT's don't understand is that Aspies or

forced to live in what is to them an alien world ALL the time

24/7/365 and have done that for most of their lives... If NT's were

forced to live in a world were Aspies were the dominate group them

would understand better...

To fit in at all is a strain and it builds up over time... I know

that to most people I'm a bit odd so I will generally accept the

majority view and let what I consider attacks, abuses, etc slide

(They don't understand my view and they didn't mean it the way I took

it) but there are times when people try to play games and

intentionally pick on my generally subtle oddness and I don't react

well to the... to be lied to when the facts clearly show the an

assertion to be false upsets me...

I'm not big on touching people or them touching me but there are

people that have a (in my view) sick need to grope each and slobber

on them (hug and kiss) I will tolerate an quick arm around and

reciprocate but I refuse to 'lick' them and will pull away if they

try to 'lick' me.

Some people want to perform religious rituals before meals or at the

start of some social functions... I bow my head slightly and sit or

stand quitely while they do their thing... Sometime I get questioned

about it and I tell them that I respect that they believe in the

ritual and their right to do (if they are obnoxious about it I may

add that I have the right not to believe and/or do it and point out

that I didn't question them about why they felt the need to do what

they did in the first place... I find that makes them huffy and they

quickly go away, I don't do it often)

It is really all about everyone having some level of tolerance for

everyone else and try to look at things from the other guys point of view...

Ender

October 27, 2005

It is always fun at the end of meeting someone new when I inform them

honestly that it has been pertrifying for me meeting them - or

interesting - rather than the socially polite 'it was nice meeting

you' - I never find it nice meeting someone new - to me it is always

nerve wracking, so for me to say 'it was nice meeting you' would be a

lie :-)

Also I don't see the point in saying 'we'll have to get together

again' unless I mean it. Oh all those socially polite lines like 'it

was great meeting you' and 'we'll have to do this again' - I can

never really tell whether the other person means it - am often

tempted to mutter 'yeah, whatever'. Maybe next time I am in one of

these situations - which I tend to avoid like the plauge (so is

unlikely to happen for some time), maybe I should put them on the

spot and say 'oh that's nice, what did you find great/nice about it?'

and 'yeah we should do this again - when?' but of course that would

not be playing by the rules and I hate most social situations anyway.

>

> I have a habit of asking them if they are just being 'socially

polite'

> and then watch them squirm - why should I follow the illogical

rules.

>

October 27, 2005

I hate the 'How are you?' 'I'm fine' conversation (if you could call

it that). I often get critisized for not even saying hello or goodbye

to people I see often because it oftens seems unnessesary and

meaningless. But saying 'fine' when you're not because you know the

other person doesn't care is worse, it feels hurtful to me. On a

deeper note, we had a family friend who used to say, " Why is it that

when you ask someone how they are they always say,'Fine'[You'd have

to hear the way he said it to truly appreciate his satire--kind of a

nasally, clipped 'Fine']. We laughed and said, how true, but then he

committed suicide. He was asking for help in the smallest of ways by

saying that society doesn't want to know or care if you have

problems. So sad.

(Am I making too many posts? I often overwhelm NTs with my intensity

so I stopped saying too much, but here I am writing too much to make

up for it! I don't want to appear to hijack the posts or be a

persuading force in any way. I'll back down a little. )

> >

> > I have a habit of asking them if they are just being 'socially

> polite'

> > and then watch them squirm - why should I follow the illogical

> rules.

> >

>

October 27, 2005

" (Am I making too many posts? I often overwhelm NTs with my intensity

so I stopped saying too much, but here I am writing too much to make

up for it! I don't want to appear to hijack the posts or be a

persuading force in any way. I'll back down a little. ) "

I don't think you are making too many posts. I think I go through

phases, sometimes I post a lot, other times I don't - I sometimes

think I am posting a lot, but it usually just means that I have time

and am finding the discussions thought provoking and am able to put

my thoughts into words - I can't always do so - so I make up for it

the times when I can :-) like now :-)

Plus I'd feel lonely if I was the only one posting :-)

>

> I hate the 'How are you?' 'I'm fine' conversation (if you could

call

> it that). I often get critisized for not even saying hello or

goodbye

> to people I see often because it oftens seems unnessesary and

> meaningless. But saying 'fine' when you're not because you know the

> other person doesn't care is worse, it feels hurtful to me. On a

> deeper note, we had a family friend who used to say, " Why is it

that

> when you ask someone how they are they always say,'Fine'[You'd have

> to hear the way he said it to truly appreciate his satire--kind of

a

> nasally, clipped 'Fine']. We laughed and said, how true, but then

he

> committed suicide. He was asking for help in the smallest of ways

by

> saying that society doesn't want to know or care if you have

> problems. So sad.

>

> (Am I making too many posts? I often overwhelm NTs with my

intensity

> so I stopped saying too much, but here I am writing too much to

make

> up for it! I don't want to appear to hijack the posts or be a

> persuading force in any way. I'll back down a little. )

>

October 27, 2005

,

I made these boards for everyone, which means you can use them as

much or as little as you please.

If you stay here for a while, you will discover that some folks drop

in daily and post once or twice, others pop in every few weeks and

post twenty posts. The activity here can be deceptively high and

deceptively low, depending on when you drop in.

Feel free to post as much as you like.

Everything you've posted so far has been very interesting. Also

check your e-mail for a special message.

Tom

Administrator

(Am I making too many posts? I often overwhelm NTs with my intensity

so I stopped saying too much, but here I am writing too much to make

up for it! I don't want to appear to hijack the posts or be a

persuading force in any way. I'll back down a little. )

October 27, 2005

,

I made these boards for everyone, which means you can use them as

much or as little as you please.

If you stay here for a while, you will discover that some folks drop

in daily and post once or twice, others pop in every few weeks and

post twenty posts. The activity here can be deceptively high and

deceptively low, depending on when you drop in.

Feel free to post as much as you like.

Everything you've posted so far has been very interesting. Also

check your e-mail for a special message.

Tom

Administrator

(Am I making too many posts? I often overwhelm NTs with my intensity

so I stopped saying too much, but here I am writing too much to make

up for it! I don't want to appear to hijack the posts or be a

persuading force in any way. I'll back down a little. )

October 27, 2005

Ender,

Speaking as a religious person, I find that irreligious people are

usually much more tolerant than religious people in terms of

accepting other people's belief systems. It seems like religious

people are always trying to " convert " others to their way of thing

which is why I mostly tend to keep my religious opinions to myself

when in public or social gatherings.

And I agree with your statement that:

" It is really all about everyone having some level of tolerance for

everyone else and try to look at things from the other guys point of

view... "