Re: preschool son question

April 3, 2006

In a message dated 4/3/2006 7:23:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

stmail13@... writes:

I have seen a child psychologist

twice (alone) and I feel very comfortable with him although he

reminds me that he really isn't a person to provide real CBT for my

son, and that I might need to go elsewhere once we really get into

that.

I don't know anything about private schools or how they work (only that they

can pretty much do whatever they want.... ie... kick your son out for pretty

much any reason they choose....), but I would like to comment on the

psychologist. We started taking my daughter (14yrs) to a psychologist that we

found

on our own (before we really knew anything about therapy for OCD). She saw

this gal for about 2 months - every week. It was a HUGE waste of time ev

eryone's part and HUGE waste of money on our part.

The therapy for OCD really, truly IS different than plain ol' therapy for

other types of problems. The psychologist we were seeing (bless her heart -

she was SO nice) was actually the first to bring it up - but it was on the very

visit that my husband & I went without my daughter to tell her that things

just weren't working out with her. The doctor said, " Clearly this requires

specialized treatment & it's not anything I can help you with -- nothing is

going to happen from simply talking out problems - this is a chemical imbalance

of some sort... " on & on she went on why she wasn't able to help our

daughter. We already knew that though. Through what we had seen going on in

her

sessions & the reading we had done - there was nothing this woman could help my

daughter with because she wasn't trained in therapy for OCD (meaning: CBT &

ERP).

It might make you " feel " better because you have someone to talk to and your

child has someone to talk to --- but it won't help the OCD.

LT

April 3, 2006

In a message dated 4/3/2006 8:24:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

lynnovale@... writes:

Hi,

-- just my 2 cents.

The externalizing I've read about was not done by

naming routines but rather naming the 'OCD' some

nasty/negative name so that the child and parents can

all be seen as being on one side (together) in the

battle against the " OCD monster " .

It seems like naming routines might give them a kind

of acceptability. Maybe if you name the routine

something nasty -- but it seems simpler to name the

'OCD' something negative because then as the symptoms

change over the years it will be understood that it is

all being caused by one thing -- OCD.

Best wishes,

Lynn

--- stmail13 <stmail13@...> wrote:

---------------------------------

Hi again -- so since I last wrote I have seen a child

psychologist

twice (alone) and I feel very comfortable with him

although he

reminds me that he really isn't a person to provide

real CBT for my

son, and that I might need to go elsewhere once we

really get into

that. Right now I'm just providing a lot of

information and

background...we really haven't gotten into the rituals

so far due to

limited time. Hopefully we'll have all the information

exchanged

over the next few visits so we can make some

headway...

Anyways, my task this week was to ask my son, " these

things you like

to do a certain way...what would you like to call

them? Can we call

it a routine? Like this is your bedtime routine? " .

Well, as I

expected, he said " I don't want to call it anything " .

So I joked

around, " we'll call it the bedtime nothing then " and

of course he

got frustrated with me after some back and forth and

we ended up

leaving it alone.

(1) does this mean he has the insight to understand

the things he is

doing are unusual and represent a problem? I think

that would be

progress if that's true?

(2) I was excited about externalizing the problem and

looked forward

to having a label for us to use...any suggestions for

getting us

there? I somehow thought he'd go for calling it a

" routine " ...are we

at a standstill with this?

My husband, who had been completely against us talking

with anyone

because " nothing was wrong " is not UNsupportive of my

seeing this

psychologist although I haven't brought up the

possibility of

bringing him or bringing my son at some point. This

doctor seems to

have the insight to realize that them coming is not an

option right

now. (I thought it was funny that the other

psychologist I saw, once

informed that my husband didn't want us to see a

psychologist and

didn't want the school involved or informed at any

level, handed me

three thick sheafs of paper labeled " OCD inventory "

for me to have

filled out by the school and my husband...? huh ?

:-)...

I did briefly speak with a teacher at the school for

an update (with

me not providing any info at all) and unfortunately

she said that

they are hopeful but, are working on flexibility and

anger, he

doesn't really have any friends, he's harsh to other

kids, forceful

with teachers, everything is black and white, etc. My

husband was

worried that I'd had this brief interchange with the

school, that

now they could kick us out (private school) and be

able to say " we

told you so, gave you notice a while ago that there

were

problems " ...maybe that is his real motivation for

denying all this?

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April 3, 2006

Hi! Lynn had a good point about naming OCD. I don't recall how old

your son is, but my son was 11.5 when his OCD began. He knows about

naming OCD if you want to (gave him examples I'd read) but we just

called it " OCD. " Not imaginative, I know, LOL, but he's a logical

type guy anyway!

So - you're not quite sure if he understands all this is a

problem/unusual yet?? Still, if he is getting upset, you can discuss

how upsetting a ritual/routine is making him, how anxious, how time-

consuming - or whatever fits best - and talk about ways to change

it. I would comment more, but I'm still not sure your son knows

about OCD any yet? (sorry, can't recall all of earlier posts!)

Re the school - if everything is black/white, what ways are they

working with him on this problem?

As to being harsh to others...well, there could be several reasons

for this. Any ideas? If he feels no one likes him, he might just

have an " attitude " due to this. If his social skills are lacking

anyway or not lacking but still not making friends - well, something

to work on from a different angle. If he just feels different or is

dealing with OCD all the time, well, might be taking it out on all.

(I know sometimes when I have a bad day, it's BEST to leave me alone

a bit! I warn my kids, LOL!)

Just some thoughts. Hang in there. You are definitely on the right

track, it's just slow getting to a point where you feel progress is

being made! (was for us!) This group is great for suggestions to

try for certain OC behaviors. We didn't have a therapist so got by

on what I read and tips from here.

>

> Hi again -- so since I last wrote I have seen a child psychologist

> twice (alone) and I feel very comfortable with him although he

> reminds me that he really isn't a person to provide real CBT for my

> son, and that I might need to go elsewhere once we really get into

> that. Right now I'm just providing a lot of information and

>

April 4, 2006

Thanks for your input...in response, my son is only 4. Since there

is so much resistance from my husband to label this OCD, I kind of

liked the label " routine " (i.e. my morning routine, my getting the

newspaper routine) but again, my 4 yo " doesn't want to call it

anything " . How can I get past that block?

I was actually surprised that he didn't want to give it a

name...does that mean he does have insight? I also wonder, because

an out-of-pocket OCD specialist I spoke with on the phone felt that

he was too little (no insight) to start formal CBT but that we could

just get together to talk a couple of times. Instead, I decided to

see what there was in-network (especially if just to give support

and talk). I like this child psychologist...what he said what that

he is familiar with specific CBT techniques for OCD and uses that

but also has a more eclectic approach looking at other factors going

on. He did say that the only people he knew of around here that

would provide a real " treatment manual approach " are at UCLA. He

said he has sent people there in the past but that he is comfortable

treating OCD with CBT himself. From my reading he does seem

knowledgable about OCD, and because of his background in the

educational system, my husband accepts my seeing him (on the

pretense that this is all about getting my son to function better in

school, not about any real _problem_, since there is no problem,

right)?

He also said that he may be too young for the " treatment manual "

approach anyways at this point (agreeing with two OCD psychologist-

specialists I spoke with out-of-pocket).

In response to the question about school, I think they are just

trying to " help him learn to be more flexible " . They have a lot of

affection for him and seem to see him positively so far, but they

mention that " the tears come quickly " and " he is harsh to the other

kids " . I definitely don't see an attitude (yet) and I think he

generally knows how people like to be treated, but my real

impression honestly is that he is dealing with OCD every second. He

just gets upset, blaming and crying, whenever something doesn't

go " right " or someone does something wrong or out-of-order or they

sing the hello song in a different way or a classmate doesn't pour

sand the right way. It is always about something ridiculous. It is

just stuff that is usually beyond anyone's control even if we all

wanted to accomodate (enable?) everything he wanted.

April 4, 2006

OCD anxiety and fear and anger can be very confusing even for us

parents who see so much of our children - I don't think the school is

being helped by keeping them in the dark.

ocd so often looks like 'stubborness' or 'inattention' or a 'quick

temper'

i think it would help them enormously to have a " this is ocd " , " this

is what's going on in his head " , " this is what you can do " , " this is

what you shouldn't do " , this is what you are seeing when... " , " this

is how we'll know he's making progress " .

if they give up on him and kick him out because they can't figure out

how to help them . . . well, it could only help, and probably won't

hurt, for them to know exactly what it is they're trying to help him

with??

there's a nicely written profressional article in the files on this

site directed at school personnel (what ocd is, how it looks, what

causes it, how it's treated, what to look for, how they can help).

Since it's written just for them by an experienced doctor I think

they would be responsive to it . . . take it seriously . . . feel

like they're not doing their job very well if they fail to follow

it's suggestions.

>

> Thanks for your input...in response, my son is only 4. Since there

> is so much resistance from my husband to label this OCD, I kind of

> liked the label " routine " (i.e. my morning routine, my getting the

> newspaper routine) but again, my 4 yo " doesn't want to call it

> anything " . How can I get past that block?

> I was actually surprised that he didn't want to give it a

> name...does that mean he does have insight? I also wonder, because

> an out-of-pocket OCD specialist I spoke with on the phone felt that

> he was too little (no insight) to start formal CBT but that we

could

> just get together to talk a couple of times. Instead, I decided to

> see what there was in-network (especially if just to give support

> and talk). I like this child psychologist...what he said what that

> he is familiar with specific CBT techniques for OCD and uses that

> but also has a more eclectic approach looking at other factors

going

> on. He did say that the only people he knew of around here that

> would provide a real " treatment manual approach " are at UCLA. He

> said he has sent people there in the past but that he is

comfortable

> treating OCD with CBT himself. From my reading he does seem

> knowledgable about OCD, and because of his background in the

> educational system, my husband accepts my seeing him (on the

> pretense that this is all about getting my son to function better

in

> school, not about any real _problem_, since there is no problem,

> right)?

> He also said that he may be too young for the " treatment manual "

> approach anyways at this point (agreeing with two OCD psychologist-

> specialists I spoke with out-of-pocket).

> In response to the question about school, I think they are just

> trying to " help him learn to be more flexible " . They have a lot of

> affection for him and seem to see him positively so far, but they

> mention that " the tears come quickly " and " he is harsh to the other

> kids " . I definitely don't see an attitude (yet) and I think he

> generally knows how people like to be treated, but my real

> impression honestly is that he is dealing with OCD every second. He

> just gets upset, blaming and crying, whenever something doesn't

> go " right " or someone does something wrong or out-of-order or they

> sing the hello song in a different way or a classmate doesn't pour

> sand the right way. It is always about something ridiculous. It is

> just stuff that is usually beyond anyone's control even if we all

> wanted to accomodate (enable?) everything he wanted.

>

April 4, 2006

Hi again, my thoughts are the examples you gave - " ...blaming and

crying, whenever something doesn't go " right " or someone does

something wrong or out-of-order or they sing the hello song in a

different way or a classmate doesn't pour sand the right way " - can

certainly be OCD.

I recall one of my other sons, (my OCDer's twin) when he was

preschool/toddler age. He went thru a " just right " phase. He could

NOT have a wrinkle in his blanket that he liked to lie on to watch

TV, etc. Had to be perfectly smoothed out. I'd be on my knees with

him smoothing it out; while he'd be crying until it was " right. " He

might call me downstairs for some reason and would want me to come

down the stairs, maybe go to the left a few feet, turn, go...and if

I " messed up " then there were tears, stomping feet and he'd want me

to go back up and come down and do it " right. " Other things

similar. Boy, he drove me crazy!! I knew it was OCD but wasn't

working at the time, wondered how I could get him help.... Never

did, but somehow it all passed (I refused sometimes to comply on some

things). I'm just glad *it* went away!

, my OCDer, had OC behaviors/tendencies during elementary

school (tracing over letters, a bit of erase/rewrite, LOTS of

reassurance questions I didn't realize could be part of OCD) but got

the full *disorder* in 6th grade, suddenly 24/7 compulsions popping

out all over the place!

I seem to be rambling a bit(!), but I know it's hard sometimes to

decide what might be a " phase " for a young one, wanting things

*their* way, but when it causes such distress and is going on for a

while - well, phase or OCD, you can handle it all as *OCD*.

Learning to be more " flexible " is one way to begin. Does he like

rewards?? Many kids will work towards rewards, whether it's a

favorite treat or some special toy to earn. Maybe you can talk to

him about how he needs to learn to...well, not get so upset if

something doesn't go right and work on " messing things up " at

home/school, going in a different order, singing the wrong way or

whatever upsets him (and just pick 1 or 2 or 3 things to work on, let

the others pass for now), and cheer him on for even just the effort

of trying. If he's the " logical " type of mind, you might ask if he

notices anyone else - like mom, dad, teacher, classmates... - who

react the same as him. (just a thought there, example I used in the

grocery store with two wild...er, playful...twin boys!)

Just some quick thoughts this p.m. You're on the right track, and I

actually think the younger kids, like your son, will progress really

well with the right therapy; as compared to my son, who was in 6th

grade and less playful, more set in his ways, i.e., I think he'd have

been more willing to work on things at a younger age.

Keep us posted on how your's/his days go!