Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared experiences on this. Barbara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 A few weeks ago, my (Tourette's, but probably non-OCD; my 10yo dd is the OCDer) 13yo son had an infected finger from where he had bit his fingernail too short. For several days he had been after me to lance it with a needle (something I have occasionally done for him in the past). But this time, when I finally got a chance to do it, he had what I can only describe as a full-blown panic attack. When I would get anywhere near him with the needle he would " hide " that finger and scream at me to get away from him. My husband finally had to practically lay on him and hold his hand still for me to do it. And even at that it took several tries because he would fold his hand over and scream at us. It really needed to be done, and I know that if we had taken him to the doctor they would just have done what I did. Once I got it " stuck " , which only took a brief second, he was OK for the " squeezing out " part. (BTW, I had thoroughly sterilized the needle with alcohol, and after it was over applied antibiotic ointment.) He doesn't usually react that way to needles or shots. Although, I do remember having to take him to the doctor for a splinter once when he was about 3 or 4 for pretty much the same reason -- I just couldn't get to it with a tweezers and/or needle because he panicked. P. bbrodley <bbrodley@...> wrote: Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared experiences on this. Barbara Our list archives, bookmarks, files, and chat feature may be accessed at: / . Our list advisors are Gail B. , Ed.D., Tamar Chansky, Ph.D.( http://www.worrywisekids.org ), Dan Geller, M.D.,Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D., ( http://www.lighthouse-press.com ). Our list moderators are Birkhan, Castle, Fowler, Kathy Hammes, Joye, Kathy Mac, Gail Pesses, and Kathy . Subscription issues or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Hi Barbara, my child has done similar things. I think it has to do with OCD " right " and " not right " , or same and different, and my child would get a big wave of panic anxiety when the healed or fixed area was " not the same " anymore. An ex is when my dd had to wear an ACE bandage on a sprained wrist for a couple of weeks. When the wrist no longer hurt and the bandage was no longer needed, she " had to " keep wearing it because her wrist was " not right " without it. It's a peculiarity of OCD thinking that an injured body part could be perceived as " right " instead of the normal version-- :-/ Also, since OCD hit (age four), she's had an ongoing obsession or issue with treating minor cuts, scrapes, splinters, etc. No ab ointment, no bandage, and when I've insisted she panics similar to your son. In any case it seems your son is experiencing high anxiety or panic over this. For my child, the right meds and effective therapy reduced the intensity of all these sorts of obsessions/compulsions. It helps sometimes to remember that OCD is OCD and the specific content of the obsession doesn't matter too much. Your son may not even be able to explain why this triggers so much anxiety. I remember reading in some book about an adult OCDer in history, convinced that his nose would fall off if he stopped holding it, and in a panic over this. Despite examination and repeated reassurance from his doctor, the man could not be convinced that his nose was attached and fine. OCD can focus on just about anything it seems. Kathy R. in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: " bbrodley " <bbrodley@...> > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > experiences on this. > > Barbara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Thanks for your comment. Actually it is possible that my son could have Tourettes as he has had intermittant tics for two years now, mostly eye/nose tics that pop up about every 3 months, but this Thanksgiving he had a breathing tic -- which from what I understand is considered " vocal " . I believe it's possible his OCD type behaviors which are not rituals but more obsessive thinking could be explained if he turns out to have Tourettes (of course I hope like crazy that he doesn't have it). My son is six. Barbara > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > experiences on this. > > Barbara > > > > > > Our list archives, bookmarks, files, and chat feature may be accessed at: / . > Our list advisors are Gail B. , Ed.D., Tamar Chansky, Ph.D.( http://www.worrywisekids.org ), Dan Geller, M.D.,Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D., ( http://www.lighthouse-press.com ). Our list moderators are Birkhan, Castle, Fowler, Kathy Hammes, Joye, Kathy Mac, Gail Pesses, and Kathy . Subscription issues or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... . > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Thanks for your comment. Actually it is possible that my son could have Tourettes as he has had intermittant tics for two years now, mostly eye/nose tics that pop up about every 3 months, but this Thanksgiving he had a breathing tic -- which from what I understand is considered " vocal " . I believe it's possible his OCD type behaviors which are not rituals but more obsessive thinking could be explained if he turns out to have Tourettes (of course I hope like crazy that he doesn't have it). My son is six. Barbara > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > experiences on this. > > Barbara > > > > > > Our list archives, bookmarks, files, and chat feature may be accessed at: / . > Our list advisors are Gail B. , Ed.D., Tamar Chansky, Ph.D.( http://www.worrywisekids.org ), Dan Geller, M.D.,Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D., ( http://www.lighthouse-press.com ). Our list moderators are Birkhan, Castle, Fowler, Kathy Hammes, Joye, Kathy Mac, Gail Pesses, and Kathy . Subscription issues or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... . > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Thanks for sharing your experience. Your comments make me feel like I have properly identified the issue and I, too, think my son can't explain his feelings of why he wants the injury to remain unchanged even if it's painful. The splinter removal and aftermath turned out to be a five-hour long ordeal with intermittant periods of calmness. I had to ask my husband to come home from work early. Even when my son was almost asleep he would suddenly start crying and biting his finger to hurt it, but then also complaining that it hurt (when I turned the lights on it wasn't even the right finger!). This morning everytime my son looked at his fingers, I immediately distracted him. When he showed his fingers to his father, my husband ignored it too. Because we don't seem to have the right words, no matter what we say. Everything we say seems to make it more upsetting, so we've decided ignoring it at this point is the only workable strategy. I decided to not even tell his teacher. Barbara > > Hi Barbara, my child has done similar things. I think it has to do with OCD > " right " and " not right " , or same and different, and my child would get a big > wave of panic anxiety when the healed or fixed area was " not the same " > anymore. An ex is when my dd had to wear an ACE bandage on a sprained wrist > for a couple of weeks. When the wrist no longer hurt and the bandage was no > longer needed, she " had to " keep wearing it because her wrist was " not > right " without it. > > It's a peculiarity of OCD thinking that an injured body part could be > perceived as " right " instead of the normal version-- :-/ > > Also, since OCD hit (age four), she's had an ongoing obsession or issue with > treating minor cuts, scrapes, splinters, etc. No ab ointment, no bandage, > and when I've insisted she panics similar to your son. > > In any case it seems your son is experiencing high anxiety or panic over > this. For my child, the right meds and effective therapy reduced the > intensity of all these sorts of obsessions/compulsions. It helps sometimes > to remember that OCD is OCD and the specific content of the obsession > doesn't matter too much. Your son may not even be able to explain why this > triggers so much anxiety. > > I remember reading in some book about an adult OCDer in history, convinced > that his nose would fall off if he stopped holding it, and in a panic over > this. Despite examination and repeated reassurance from his doctor, the man > could not be convinced that his nose was attached and fine. OCD can focus > on just about anything it seems. > > Kathy R. in Indiana > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " bbrodley " <bbrodley@...> > > > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > > experiences on this. > > > > Barbara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 When I read this post it reminded me of when Bre was younger she would scratch her finger across each wrist and then lick it. I had no idea what she was doing. Later she told me she was having thoughts of slitting her wrists and so she would slit it herself (with her finger) and then lick it to heal it. She didn't really want to slit her wrists, she hated that thought! It was her ocd and I learned later it was an obbession and compulsion act. Bre will get all sorts of ugly thoughts, cutting her fingers off, stabbing me, whatever horrible thought she doesn't want to have, she will have. Ocd locks into what the child hates or what they fear. Therapy has helped her alot! I hate this disease! Sandy -- In , " bbrodley " <bbrodley@...> wrote: > > Thanks for sharing your experience. Your comments make me feel like I > have properly identified the issue and I, too, think my son can't > explain his feelings of why he wants the injury to remain unchanged > even if it's painful. The splinter removal and aftermath turned out > to be a five-hour long ordeal with intermittant periods of calmness. I > had to ask my husband to come home from work early. Even when my son > was almost asleep he would suddenly start crying and biting his finger > to hurt it, but then also complaining that it hurt (when I turned the > lights on it wasn't even the right finger!). > > This morning everytime my son looked at his fingers, I immediately > distracted him. When he showed his fingers to his father, my husband > ignored it too. Because we don't seem to have the right words, no > matter what we say. Everything we say seems to make it more > upsetting, so we've decided ignoring it at this point is the only > workable strategy. I decided to not even tell his teacher. > > Barbara > > > > > > Hi Barbara, my child has done similar things. I think it has to do > with OCD > > " right " and " not right " , or same and different, and my child would > get a big > > wave of panic anxiety when the healed or fixed area was " not the same " > > anymore. An ex is when my dd had to wear an ACE bandage on a > sprained wrist > > for a couple of weeks. When the wrist no longer hurt and the > bandage was no > > longer needed, she " had to " keep wearing it because her wrist was " not > > right " without it. > > > > It's a peculiarity of OCD thinking that an injured body part could be > > perceived as " right " instead of the normal version-- :-/ > > > > Also, since OCD hit (age four), she's had an ongoing obsession or > issue with > > treating minor cuts, scrapes, splinters, etc. No ab ointment, no > bandage, > > and when I've insisted she panics similar to your son. > > > > In any case it seems your son is experiencing high anxiety or panic > over > > this. For my child, the right meds and effective therapy reduced the > > intensity of all these sorts of obsessions/compulsions. It helps > sometimes > > to remember that OCD is OCD and the specific content of the obsession > > doesn't matter too much. Your son may not even be able to explain > why this > > triggers so much anxiety. > > > > I remember reading in some book about an adult OCDer in history, > convinced > > that his nose would fall off if he stopped holding it, and in a > panic over > > this. Despite examination and repeated reassurance from his doctor, > the man > > could not be convinced that his nose was attached and fine. OCD can > focus > > on just about anything it seems. > > > > Kathy R. in Indiana > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: " bbrodley " <bbrodley@> > > > > > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > > > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > > > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > > > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > > > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > > > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > > > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > > > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > > > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > > > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > > > experiences on this. > > > > > > Barbara > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Hi Barbara, Your post sounded familiar. My son is doing a funny heavy breathing thru his nose thing for about 2 months now. It sounds forced and on purpose and he insists it is because his nose is stuffed up (it is kind of stuffed up for a while --maybe an allergy) He also links his eyes rapidly sometimes. And sticks his lips out and wiggles them back and forth which he says is done to scratch his itchy nose. His OCD is also more thoughts and not many rituals (at least that he lets me see) Lynn --- bbrodley <bbrodley@...> wrote: --------------------------------- Thanks for your comment. Actually it is possible that my son could have Tourettes as he has had intermittant tics for two years now, mostly eye/nose tics that pop up about every 3 months, but this Thanksgiving he had a breathing tic -- which from what I understand is considered " vocal " . I believe it's possible his OCD type behaviors which are not rituals but more obsessive thinking could be explained if he turns out to have Tourettes (of course I hope like crazy that he doesn't have it). My son is six. Barbara > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > experiences on this. > > Barbara > > > > > > Our list archives, bookmarks, files, and chat feature may be accessed at: / .. > Our list advisors are Gail B. , Ed.D., Tamar Chansky, Ph.D.( http://www.worrywisekids.org ), Dan Geller, M.D.,Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D., ( http://www.lighthouse-press.com ). Our list moderators are Birkhan, Castle, Fowler, Kathy Hammes, Joye, Kathy Mac, Gail Pesses, and Kathy . Subscription issues or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... . > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Hi Barbara, Your post sounded familiar. My son is doing a funny heavy breathing thru his nose thing for about 2 months now. It sounds forced and on purpose and he insists it is because his nose is stuffed up (it is kind of stuffed up for a while --maybe an allergy) He also links his eyes rapidly sometimes. And sticks his lips out and wiggles them back and forth which he says is done to scratch his itchy nose. His OCD is also more thoughts and not many rituals (at least that he lets me see) Lynn --- bbrodley <bbrodley@...> wrote: --------------------------------- Thanks for your comment. Actually it is possible that my son could have Tourettes as he has had intermittant tics for two years now, mostly eye/nose tics that pop up about every 3 months, but this Thanksgiving he had a breathing tic -- which from what I understand is considered " vocal " . I believe it's possible his OCD type behaviors which are not rituals but more obsessive thinking could be explained if he turns out to have Tourettes (of course I hope like crazy that he doesn't have it). My son is six. Barbara > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > experiences on this. > > Barbara > > > > > > Our list archives, bookmarks, files, and chat feature may be accessed at: / .. > Our list advisors are Gail B. , Ed.D., Tamar Chansky, Ph.D.( http://www.worrywisekids.org ), Dan Geller, M.D.,Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D., ( http://www.lighthouse-press.com ). Our list moderators are Birkhan, Castle, Fowler, Kathy Hammes, Joye, Kathy Mac, Gail Pesses, and Kathy . Subscription issues or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... . > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 My son's was a gasping as if he didn't have enough air. It seemed to be a tic -- sometimes it would interfere with speaking and it would get more frequent when he was tired or excited (during a fun game for instance). I was so happy to see it go away ... > > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their > child is upset when > > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is > healed. Examples > > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is > removed. We get > > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the > area. Anyone else > > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming > that his finger > > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after > a huge tantrum > > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it > put back in -- and > > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger > hurting. Right now > > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I > said, not even > > about the right finger that he says is hurting. > Thanks for any shared > > experiences on this. > > > > Barbara > > > > > > > > > > > > Our list archives, bookmarks, files, and chat > feature may be > accessed at: > / > . > > Our list advisors are Gail B. , Ed.D., Tamar > Chansky, Ph.D.( > http://www.worrywisekids.org ), Dan Geller, > M.D.,Aureen Pinto Wagner, > Ph.D., ( http://www.lighthouse-press.com ). Our list > moderators are > Birkhan, Castle, Fowler, Kathy > Hammes, Joye, > Kathy Mac, Gail Pesses, and Kathy . > Subscription > issues or suggestions may be addressed to Louis > Harkins, list owner, > at louisharkins@ , louisharkins@ , > louisharkins@ . > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 My son's was a gasping as if he didn't have enough air. It seemed to be a tic -- sometimes it would interfere with speaking and it would get more frequent when he was tired or excited (during a fun game for instance). I was so happy to see it go away ... > > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their > child is upset when > > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is > healed. Examples > > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is > removed. We get > > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the > area. Anyone else > > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming > that his finger > > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after > a huge tantrum > > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it > put back in -- and > > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger > hurting. Right now > > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I > said, not even > > about the right finger that he says is hurting. > Thanks for any shared > > experiences on this. > > > > Barbara > > > > > > > > > > > > Our list archives, bookmarks, files, and chat > feature may be > accessed at: > / > . > > Our list advisors are Gail B. , Ed.D., Tamar > Chansky, Ph.D.( > http://www.worrywisekids.org ), Dan Geller, > M.D.,Aureen Pinto Wagner, > Ph.D., ( http://www.lighthouse-press.com ). Our list > moderators are > Birkhan, Castle, Fowler, Kathy > Hammes, Joye, > Kathy Mac, Gail Pesses, and Kathy . > Subscription > issues or suggestions may be addressed to Louis > Harkins, list owner, > at louisharkins@ , louisharkins@ , > louisharkins@ . > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 School-aged kids are very " body conscious " and this is a normal part of development. They have fears of death and mutilation and it is also at this age that they begin to question and somewhat understand what death and dying is. It is no wonder then that an OCD kid would experience this " growing pain " ten-fold. It sounds as if it is the change about his body (skin integrity, appearance, ect...) that is scary to your son. Maybe when he is not upset you can talk to kim about how a body heals itself, ect.. And you may want to talk to your therapist and/or doctor as an injury may be the trigger for some obsessions that you can work on. Best wishes, Bonnie > > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > experiences on this. > > Barbara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 School-aged kids are very " body conscious " and this is a normal part of development. They have fears of death and mutilation and it is also at this age that they begin to question and somewhat understand what death and dying is. It is no wonder then that an OCD kid would experience this " growing pain " ten-fold. It sounds as if it is the change about his body (skin integrity, appearance, ect...) that is scary to your son. Maybe when he is not upset you can talk to kim about how a body heals itself, ect.. And you may want to talk to your therapist and/or doctor as an injury may be the trigger for some obsessions that you can work on. Best wishes, Bonnie > > Hello, has anyone had the experience where their child is upset when > they get hurt, but then even more upset when it is healed. Examples > include when a scab falls off or when a splinter is removed. We get > huge tantrums and he tries to rehurt himself in the area. Anyone else > have a child like this? Tonight he was screaming that his finger > still hurt after the splinter was taken out -- after a huge tantrum > that we took out the splinter and that he wanted it put back in -- and > then he wasn't even talking about the right finger hurting. Right now > he has been screaming for over an hour, and like I said, not even > about the right finger that he says is hurting. Thanks for any shared > experiences on this. > > Barbara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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