Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Oh! I forgot about all the videos, Karyn!! What a laugh. We tried " Once Upon a Potty, " but Andy didn't find it interesting. We did watch an awful lot of one called " It's Potty Time " wiht what was once riotous songs (now we cringe). Every song is a familar tune, but has new words with Potty issues in it. " Wash wash wash your hands.... " Anyway. j Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Joan, Thanks for the excellent advise. I am definitely going to try the social story. I think that would help him. We did get two videos on potty training and Gavin, who is a big video watcher, was bored after 10 minutes.....then again, so was I. I wasn't real impressed with the ones we have. We backed off from going to potty because of his reaction and his negative response. I knew that if we pushed the issue, it would only get worse. But it's frustrating because he shows us he's ready to at least start the journey. When he goes to the bathroom is his diaper, he will touch down there and when he's having a BM, he'll squat. Also when he's in the bathtub, he'll stand up, start peeing and say " Pee Pee " and then clap So I know he's ready to start, but he's afraid of touching the potty. I guess we'll just be patient and see what happens. He's pretty cheap......the thing he responds to the most for any activity is praise! LOL We also use stickers and his beloved Dr. Seuss books. But I will back off for a few weeks and start at square one again.... and use little steps. Traci and Gavin, age 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 In a message dated 8/3/03 10:03:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KVanRyzin@... writes: << The toileting issue was worsened by his tactile sensitivity >> Karyn, This is exactly what I think is happening with Gavin.....I didn't communicate it that well though by saying he's afraid of the potty! We play a game and Buzz Lightyear and all his dolls go to the potty and then it's Gavin's turn. He has NO problem sitting on the little potty with his clothing on. BUT when you pull his pants down........well, then it starts. When we go to sit him on the potty, he does everything in his power to avoid having his bare bum touch the seat. He acts the same way he used to act when we offered him a " foreign " food or when we brought out the play dough. He has a lot of sensory issues and these things brought out the worst meltdowns. The look of fear in his eyes tells me its not a behavior issue, but perhaps a sensory issue. What was helpful to you in getting to tolerate just sitting on the toilet? Traci and Gavin, age 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 At 07:14 PM 8/3/2003 -0400, you wrote: >We also use >stickers and his beloved Dr. Seuss books. Have you thought of putting some very special Dr. Seuess books in the bathroom? Sit on the toilet and we'll read! (but only have a copy in the BR or he'll just read it somewhere else--and not *all* the Dr. S. books, just a real favorite). then when he just sits on it (closed, clothed, whatever the goal is), He can choose a sticker on the reward chart. Just a thought! j Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 At 07:25 PM 8/3/2003 -0400, you wrote: >The look of fear in his eyes >tells me its not a behavior issue, but perhaps a sensory issue. What was >helpful >to you in getting to tolerate just sitting on the toilet? Have you thoguht about different types of seats? Maybe he'd like one of those " cushioned " ones they sell for " old folks " ? (my dad likes this type--blech!) j Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Hi Traci, I agree with Joan on this trial, a different type of seat would probably help. It could be the texture, odor, the seat is too cold, too much sound, too much light, or the fear of the toilet, etc. Just make sure to keep language simple when responding to him with a simple visual cue. They become dependent on " routine " to calm themselves. Thats great progress that he cheers when he urinates in the tub, notice the difference no fear with an open spot to urinate, compared to the enclosed toilet area for him. On what you had written I would have to agree it does sound like sensory issue. Sounds like Gavin is coming along so don't stop trying, focus on what's working, and try to create more situations that will work for your child or you'll throw him off and then he'll really get confused. One day at a time to figure out that sensory piece which is causing the behavior issues. Once that is identified I would suggest putting a positive reinforcement system in place in attempt to get him motivated and it should calm down and this would make him feel more comfortable or much calmer to the road of the toilet training process. All this is part of training the brain to this routine, consistency with lots of accidents, just the baby steps and at his age this is good news that he is showing signs to potty, just not in the toilet. Is there somebody else that could help? Try a close family member he looks up to. Only not at your place at their place. This will give you an idea of if its the toilet seat. Once a upon a time I was just about to give up with the same issues you're experiencing and he would only pee in the tub or like what you had mentioned the potty steps with the pull-ups on and sitting on the pot then he would urinate but once pull-ups are off, oops there goes the river all over. One of my sons Aunt at her house, well he would go with her to the restroom. She had shown him the steps restroom first then TV, he carried his stimming toy or one of his favorite video inside the restroom, placed it on the counter, learn how to remove his pants down, pull-ups down, then sit on toilet, then flush (depending on the child), pull pull-ups & pants on. Then proceeded to hand wash routine then when " all done " , it was high five time, big hug and he was given his stimming toy or video. He walked out with a smile with my sister still supervising. Never underestimate our kids if the steps have been shown sometimes they will do it for others with supervision. Of course at home it was a different story with mom & dad. I guess this is one of those " escape behavior " . In that book that was mentioned here " Work In Progress " there was something like children get upset when we try to take away behaviors that have been functional for them. Don't quote me on this as I do not have this book on hand but I read something like this. Then he cooperated for his Middle school teacher and I had her visit our house to see if he would go for her and he did. Then he finally did with us, his parents. Since this a new arena for him a new transition has been introduced this could trigger some behavior to the new changes. Good luck, even though its a bumpy ride on this journey things are still starting to look good and it may take time for him to learn and process it. So hang in there, no giving up as you're doing good. Irma,15,DS/ASD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Traci, Hi... not sure if it will help, but we use a little potty seat that sits on the " big people " seat for Jordan (4 years 7 months). He was not very comfortable with sitting on the toilet without that little potty seat. Jordan's pediatrician, and also his special needs teachers, have said that we shouldn't push the potty training issue with Jordan right now because of his developmental age... right now it is 18 to 24 months... he knows what potty is... and I do agree to a point... up to the time when I have to change a #2 diaper. Fortunately, now we are able to grab him up when we see him do his " potty dance " to get him to the potty in time for #2, we don't even try for #1... he will not tell us if he is wet, nor does he indicate that he has gone #2. The pediatrician suggested we make sitting on the potty a part of his daily routine 2 times a day, whether we get results or not... it has helped us. Wal Mart has a little seat with a soft white cushion and handles, and also a soft one with Blues Clues pattern... we got the little white seat with the handles, something he could pull up on. Jordan too loves the praise... clap for this, say yeah! for that. Jordan likes to sit in front of a mirror, that helps (I think he thinks it is his buddy). Wish you the best in this process, especially with the sensory issues involved... Please keep us posted. debby (mom to Jordan) _____________________________________________________________________ Joan, Thanks for the excellent advise. I am definitely going to try the social story. I think that would help him. We did get two videos on potty training and Gavin, who is a big video watcher, was bored after 10 minutes.....then again, so was I. I wasn't real impressed with the ones we have. We backed off from going to potty because of his reaction and his negative response. I knew that if we pushed the issue, it would only get worse. But it's frustrating because he shows us he's ready to at least start the journey. When he goes to the bathroom is his diaper, he will touch down there and when he's having a BM, he'll squat. Also when he's in the bathtub, he'll stand up, start peeing and say " Pee Pee " and then clap So I know he's ready to start, but he's afraid of touching the potty. I guess we'll just be patient and see what happens. He's pretty cheap......the thing he responds to the most for any activity is praise! LOL We also use stickers and his beloved Dr. Seuss books. But I will back off for a few weeks and start at square one again.... and use little steps. Traci and Gavin, age 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 In a message dated 8/4/03 7:43:28 AM Central Daylight Time, writes: > Oh! I forgot about all the videos, Karyn!! What a laugh. > > We tried " Once Upon a Potty, " but Andy didn't find it interesting. We did > watch an awful lot of one called " It's Potty Time " wiht what was once > riotous songs (now we cringe). Every song is a familar tune, but has new > words with Potty issues in it. " Wash wash wash your hands.... " > > Anyway. > > j That would be the one. Ring a bell " she is a super, duper pooper... " Interesting though that my typical 2 1/2 year old isn't interested in this video at all. Karyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 At 09:28 AM 8/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >That would be the one. Ring a bell " she is a super, duper pooper... " >Interesting though that my typical 2 1/2 year old isn't interested in this >video at all. Oh yeah!!1 hat's it! I had a mental block on that song " super duper pooper... " !! What a riot. AT birthdays we still all start thinking about " Today' is Bobby's birthday, now he is four... " LOL! j Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 wow joan i think you covered it very well, i second your ideas. shawna. Re: potty training > Have you tried writing a social story about going potty? REading it a few > times and letting him know what options he has might help. > > I find that it helps to give transition warning. Meaning that I don't just > walk over and say NOW we are going potty! But in the beginning I would show > him a visual transitiobn schedule of what was happening. I would pick a > natural break in activities that he understood: " when the video is over, > we'll go potty. " while pointing at the symbol we used for bathroom. > > I don't know Gavin too well, but getting into a power struggle over it > probably isn't going to make things go faster. And yet, for some kids, > tremendous refusal is a part of the deal for anything. I suspect right now > Gavin equates those toilets with a lot of stress (he feels everyone else's > stress over this) and battling. Totally negative experience. Who would want > to? > > How do you encourage Gavin to do other things? > > You could try keeping a very very favorite thing on the toilet. He has to > go to the toilet to get the thing. Don't make him do anything, just let him > go get it. For Andy this would be a jump rope or clacker. I would put them > in a clear plastic jar with a lid and put it on top of the toilet. When he > wants it, he has to go near the toilet. Then you could have him just sit on > the closed toilet to get the preferred item, then sit on the open toilet > wiht his clothes on.....you get the picture. these are very very small steps. > > If he likes books, try the " Everyone Poops " book or make your own " everyone > poops " with photos of people/things he knows (yoru dog, you, whatever. > Don't make it too risque though! > > I would probably back off for 3 weeks and in the meantime create some > photographic pre-teaching and social stories so Gavin understands what is > going on. It's scary to be asked to do things when you don't understand > what the reason is. Or if it's not communicated to you with enough time for > you to undrestand and all of a sudden you are beign pushed around (I think > that's how Andy felt) or when your interrupted out of the blue to do > something but you ahve no idea what it is all about or why it has to be > *right now*. > > It is hard when you are in the middle of it to take a look at what your > child may be feeling. I'm really good at it about 3 hours later. But it has > been really helpful for me to try and see what Andy is taking in. Sometimes > that insight comes from watching other people working wiht Andy--to see > where it breaks down or seeing the confusion on his face when there isn't > enough waiting time. > > Take it slow. Andy wasn't " trip trained " until he was 9 or 10. He still > needs assistance in the BR, but he's finally starting to tell US when he > needs to go. That's huge. I think he was totally traumatized for a while, > so him telilng us on his own with no prompting that he needs help in the > bathroom is really great. > > Hang in there. I think we all understand. I certainly can attest to > cleaning up my share of brown walls and counters r........ in fact, we just > refinished our floors because the areas where he used to have accidents the > most had lost all their finish. Hmm. > > Joan > > At 03:50 AM 8/3/2003 +0000, you wrote: > >I just read through the potty training articles in the files and > >while there are some great tips, nothing dealing with what we're > >going through. Gavin acts as if he is afraid of the potty. When we > >take him to the bathroom, he throws one heck of a tantrum. We have > >tried both the little potty and also the seat on the big potty. Both > >get the same reaction. We can't get to step one without getting > >passed this issue. LOL We have been trying off and and for about 5 > >months.Has anyone experienced this or have any suggestions? > > > >Traci and Gavin, age 4 > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Checkout our homepage for information, bookmarks, and photos > >of our kids. Share favorite bookmarks, ideas, and other information by > >including them. Don't forget, messages are a permanent record of the > >archives for our list. > >-------------------------------------------- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 yes, we started off being scheduled trained with nathan, and then eventually he started to go on his own, but s till occasionally needs reminders, will retain for several hours and then have an accident, OH! everyone keep your fingers crossed, weve made it a week now and no bed wetting, shhhhhh,lol. hates the pull ups wont even put them on , or keep them on more than a few minutes, so i dug out some of those incontinent pads for his bed (the wwashable kind) and he seems happy with this. shawna. Re: potty training > In a message dated 8/3/03 7:13:35 AM Central Daylight Time, > writes: > > > > Have you tried writing a social story about going potty? REading it a few > > times and letting him know what options he has might help. > > > > I find that it helps to give transition warning. Meaning that I don't just > > walk over and say NOW we are going potty! But in the beginning I would show > > him a visual transitiobn schedule of what was happening. I would pick a > > natural break in activities that he understood: " when the video is over, > > we'll go potty. " while pointing at the symbol we used for bathroom. > > > > I don't know Gavin too well, but getting into a power struggle over it > > probably isn't going to make things go faster. And yet, for some kids, > > tremendous refusal is a part of the deal for anything. I suspect right now > > Gavin equates those toilets with a lot of stress (he feels everyone else's > > stress over this) and battling. Totally negative experience. Who would want > > to? > > > > How do you encourage Gavin to do other things? > > > > You could try keeping a very very favorite thing on the toilet. He has to > > go to the toilet to get the thing. Don't make him do anything, just let him > > go get it. For Andy this would be a jump rope or clacker. I would put them > > in a clear plastic jar with a lid and put it on top of the toilet. When he > > wants it, he has to go near the toilet. Then you could have him just sit on > > the closed toilet to get the preferred item, then sit on the open toilet > > wiht his clothes on.....you get the picture. these are very very small > > steps. > > > > If he likes books, try the " Everyone Poops " book or make your own " everyone > > poops " with photos of people/things he knows (yoru dog, you, whatever. > > Don't make it too risque though! > > > > I would probably back off for 3 weeks and in the meantime create some > > photographic pre-teaching and social stories so Gavin understands what is > > going on. It's scary to be asked to do things when you don't understand > > what the reason is. Or if it's not communicated to you with enough time for > > you to undrestand and all of a sudden you are beign pushed around (I think > > that's how Andy felt) or when your interrupted out of the blue to do > > something but you ahve no idea what it is all about or why it has to be > > *right now*. > > > > It is hard when you are in the middle of it to take a look at what your > > child may be feeling. I'm really good at it about 3 hours later. But it has > > been really helpful for me to try and see what Andy is taking in. Sometimes > > that insight comes from watching other people working wiht Andy--to see > > where it breaks down or seeing the confusion on his face when there isn't > > enough waiting time. > > > > Take it slow. Andy wasn't " trip trained " until he was 9 or 10. He still > > needs assistance in the BR, but he's finally starting to tell US when he > > needs to go. That's huge. I think he was totally traumatized for a while, > > so him telilng us on his own with no prompting that he needs help in the > > bathroom is really great. > > > > Hang in there. I think we all understand. I certainly can attest to > > cleaning up my share of brown walls and counters r........ in fact, we just > > refinished our floors because the areas where he used to have accidents the > > most had lost all their finish. Hmm. > > > > Joan > > I'm right there with Joan. We used a video called " Potty time " that seemed to > get engaged in the process. Oh the tantrums whenever I would even > mention the bathroom. I used the reinforcers for staying dry and really encouraged > him to stay dry and reminded him that using the toilet would keep his pants > dry. Even now we make it a part of his schedule (only two or three times a day) > and in between I will say " You are a big guy so you will use the bathroom when > you need to " . That usually gets him running to the bathroom. > The toileting issue was worsened by his tactile sensitivity. So many things > to consider. > > Karyn > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 traci i forgot to mention, im not real sure how you are on privacy issues, but nathan was and occasionally still(is learning to knock and will even yell at us to shut the door when in the bathroom,lol) but he us to always be in the bathroom when one of us especially me was in there going, seeing us go, and, i even got tto the point where i would go " see i peed in the toilet " and nathan would cheer for me as we do for him,lol i must be looney,lol, but anyways, he got to see the whole circle not just him but everyone uses the toilet. also, when he is incontinent we always ask him where do you go pee/poopoo? and he will say " nathan goes poo poo in toilet " so he does know and remember, we just keep asking just to be sure,lol. shawna. Re: potty training > Joan, > Thanks for the excellent advise. I am definitely going to try the social > story. I think that would help him. We did get two videos on potty training and > Gavin, who is a big video watcher, was bored after 10 minutes.....then again, > so was I. I wasn't real impressed with the ones we have. > We backed off from going to potty because of his reaction and his negative > response. I knew that if we pushed the issue, it would only get worse. But > it's frustrating because he shows us he's ready to at least start the journey. > When he goes to the bathroom is his diaper, he will touch down there and when > he's having a BM, he'll squat. Also when he's in the bathtub, he'll stand up, > start peeing and say " Pee Pee " and then clap So I know he's ready to start, > but he's afraid of touching the potty. > I guess we'll just be patient and see what happens. He's pretty > cheap......the thing he responds to the most for any activity is praise! LOL We also use > stickers and his beloved Dr. Seuss books. But I will back off for a few weeks > and start at square one again.... and use little steps. > Traci and Gavin, age 4 > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Checkout our homepage for information, bookmarks, and photos of our kids. Share favorite bookmarks, ideas, and other information by including them. Don't forget, messages are a permanent record of the archives for our list. > -------------------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 FROM TRAINING TO REQUESTING....good one! Our experience with Montyman is just like yours, too, Marina,...with Lucia, and Tim too, huh, ?.... BUT, to encourage you two to keep on keeping on, Montyman has only recently started going into the bathroom, pulling his pants down, and sitting down without me asking/telling/taking him!! I noticed that a lot of time he has already wet, but at least he is getting the drift....and sometimes he isnt wet! We are thrilled!!!! Keep up the good work, Moms!!!! Donna, Montyman's Mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 ya I havn't tried that . thanks for the tip From: tenderplace4me@ aol.com <tenderplace4me@ aol.com>Subject: potty trainingAutismBehaviorProbl emsgroups (DOT) comDate: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 7:31 PM my granddaughter is 5 and she just started to pee on her on. We were told not to let her wear pampers. However when she ready to poop she ask for her pampers and then go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 Our son started peeing on his own when he was about 18 mos. old. He wouldn't stand to pee though until after he saw my husband do it. I guess that is a hazard of having mom do most of the potty training. Up to that time he did it sitting. He would never poop though. Eventually we put him in pull-ups, then just regular underwear. He knew when he needed to poop and would go get a pull-up and put it on. He is high functioning. I talked to him about being a big boy like daddy, etc, put he just wouldn't poop in the toilet. One day we were in Wal-Mart and he was really interested in a tiny bicycle they had. He had seen lots of kids in our neighborhood on bikes. He has fairly good gross motor skills and very poor fine motor skills. He was just a couple of months short of four years old. We were getting ready to put him in pre-school and he had to be potty trained. I was getting kind of desperate about it. So I bribed him. I told him he could have the bike when he pooped on the toilet like a big boy. I added that he had to do it whenever he needed to poop, not just once, no more pull-ups. Three days later we gave him the bike. Some time after that I asked him why he hadn't wanted to poop on the toilet and he said he had been scared. To this day (he is seventeen), he resists going to the bathroom at school. He is afraid kids will look under the doors at him. If he does have to go it is only to pee, and he will only go when class is in session to cut down on the risk of being in the bathroom when someone else is there. He was given the option of using the nurse's bathroom since it is private but refused because he didn't want to be different from the other students. One thing I would do is try to take your twins separately to the bathroom, if you aren't already. Maybe they kind of reinforce each other in "not going" if they are both in the bathroom at the same time. Okay FUNNY SIDE STORY HERE: I was paranoid about our son falling in the toilet and I kept toilet locks on the lids until he was about two. We were trying to graduate him from a little potty chair to the big toilet so I took them off. That same night I woke up in the middle of the night and heard someone peeing in the toilet in the master bedroom. My husband was asleep next to me. Our son was still sleeping in a crib and hadn't figured out how to get out. I turned on the light and there sat one of the cats perched on the edge of the toilet happily whizzing away. She had an expression on her face that I can only describe as being really pleased with herself. I guess she had been waiting for two years for someone to leave the toilet lid up. I was perfectly happy with her using the toilet but to my knowledge she only used it that once. From: bkfree@... Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:28 PM autism Cc: triciamanna Subject: Re: potty training With my son the peeing came fairly easy. I put a potty chair in the kitchen and just gave him lots to drink and sat him on it regularly. Since he so hated the feeling of being wet in his underwear, he caught on pretty quickly and really never had a single accident ever. Never used pullups, I think that just delayes the peeing.Pooping though has been a whole nother issue. The sensory of feeling the pullup and the habit of always being standing when he does it has proved very hard to overcome. He is now 11 and we are still dealing with this.We have completely taken the pullup away and he has literally gone 7 days without pooping. He has never had a poop accident, he will just hold it. Since that can lead to even worse problems we stopped taking them away. When he needs to go , he goes into the bathroom and puts the pullup on, does his business and then comes and gets me to help him clean up. We are constantly talking to him about putting his poop the same place the pee goes.In the last few weeks, he has suddenly starting sitting on the potty when he feels the need to have a BM. He will sit until some comes out and then wipe and get up. He will then put on a pullup to finish. Now we are trying to get him to understand that you stay until you finish. Baby steps, but finally some progress.Did I ever think at 11, we would still be battling this? NO but, he has never ever had an accident, so that has made it easier. He also has never worn a pullup as underwear, just puts it on when the moment comes. I think that wearing regular underwear since he was 3 has helped when it comes to accidents. A pullup or Goodnights are so absorbant that it really causes no discomfort thus no push to the potty instead.My best advice is too remain calm and relaxed and let it happen at their own pace with some gentle nudging.I think one thing that has prompted my son is that he will be in 6th grade this fall and the 6th grade goes on a 3 day camping trip. We have told him no pullups are allowed on the trip and this has just really given him the incentive this summer to work on not using them.Patience and a little humor will help. Try every trick in the book as we have, but sometimes it just requires more time and maturity for out little ASD angels.KF--www.sahmatlast.blogspot.comRussian Adoption was our Option.Live and Love everyday!---- triciamanna <triciamanna@...> wrote: =============I have had alot of trouble training my twin boys on the potty and i have tried everything from putting things in the toilet to giving them candy when they go. they are 6 now and they still won't poop and hardly ever pee when i ask .... any ideas??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 thanks for the tips keep em coming i will try them all.. ============ =I have had alot of trouble training my twin boys on the potty and i have tried everything from putting things in the toilet to giving them candy when they go. they are 6 now and they still won't poop and hardly ever pee when i ask .... any ideas??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Getting ready to start potty training Abby (who is now 17 months old) this Spring. She is in her 2nd cast and is still not walking on her own. My question is - Have any of you found casting to make it harder to potty train your kids? Any advice on how to make this training easier on her while still helping to keep the cast dry? Is it even possible to train a child who is not walking on her own? (also, she is not saying much yet either - just a very few words) Thanks, , mom of Abby (17 months) 48* down to 14 degrees in 2nd cast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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