Guest guest Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Hi , I make all my own vinegar, but the mother that I tried so hard to get in the beginning is totally unnecessary for making vinegar, in fact it will at best inhibit the growth of the acetobacters and at worst become a falling mother, rot and cause off flavours in your vinegar. Throw the mother in the bin. To make good vinegar is very easy but you need a good stock with the right amount of alcohol, a live vinegar starter which you obviously have and enough oxygen for fermentation. It's important to monitor the progress of your vinegar and stop the fermentation at the right time by bottling it or it will ferment to water and go bad. Write off list if you would like to know more. Jim On 15 Sep 2007, at 10:16, Washabaugh wrote: > I had a bottle of raw BRAGGS APPLE cider that started growing > something > very simular looking to a scoby. I have moveed it to a larger > container > a stone crock and trated it as if it was KT it seems very similuar > does > any one have any thoughts what this is the top is very white and shiny > no mold I have kept it giong about 2 months now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Hi , I make all my own vinegar, but the mother that I tried so hard to get in the beginning is totally unnecessary for making vinegar, in fact it will at best inhibit the growth of the acetobacters and at worst become a falling mother, rot and cause off flavours in your vinegar. Throw the mother in the bin. To make good vinegar is very easy but you need a good stock with the right amount of alcohol, a live vinegar starter which you obviously have and enough oxygen for fermentation. It's important to monitor the progress of your vinegar and stop the fermentation at the right time by bottling it or it will ferment to water and go bad. Write off list if you would like to know more. Jim On 15 Sep 2007, at 10:16, Washabaugh wrote: > I had a bottle of raw BRAGGS APPLE cider that started growing > something > very simular looking to a scoby. I have moveed it to a larger > container > a stone crock and trated it as if it was KT it seems very similuar > does > any one have any thoughts what this is the top is very white and shiny > no mold I have kept it giong about 2 months now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Jim, from what I understand the major difference between Vinegar and Kombucha is that kombucha has gluconic acid and vinegar does not. This is due to the different strain of Acetobacteraceae used. The Acetobacteraceae bacteria first produce acetic acid and then gluconic acid which initially lags behind. IMO, gluconic acid has something to do with the formation of the cellulose mushroom (SCOBY). Since vinegar producers are primary interested in the acetic acid and not the gluconic acid (which reduces the sharpness of the vinegar, making it appear weaker) the SCOBY formation is discouraged. In either vinegar or kombucha the yeasts are relatively unimportant. Their role is to produce alcohol. (they contribute to taste even the dead yeasts cells have a flavoring role but not a major role here) The Acetobacteraceae can utilize either sugar or alcohol, but production (time) is compromised if alcohol is not present. When alcohol is not present Acetobacteraceae may cannibalize acetic acid (turns to carbon dioxide and water). Acetobacteraceae is present in the air. But the specific species of Acetobacteraceae, as in vinegar or kombucha which strain is most important. reference: http://tinyurl.com/2nn87n Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com ................................................ Re: apple cider vs KT OT Posted by: " jim " jim@... jm_chng Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:48 am (PST) Hi , I make all my own vinegar, but the mother that I tried so hard to get in the beginning is totally unnecessary for making vinegar, in fact it will at best inhibit the growth of the acetobacters and at worst become a falling mother, rot and cause off flavours in your vinegar. Throw the mother in the bin. To make good vinegar is very easy but you need a good stock with the right amount of alcohol, a live vinegar starter which you obviously have and enough oxygen for fermentation. It's important to monitor the progress of your vinegar and stop the fermentation at the right time by bottling it or it will ferment to water and go bad. Write off list if you would like to know more. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Jim, from what I understand the major difference between Vinegar and Kombucha is that kombucha has gluconic acid and vinegar does not. This is due to the different strain of Acetobacteraceae used. The Acetobacteraceae bacteria first produce acetic acid and then gluconic acid which initially lags behind. IMO, gluconic acid has something to do with the formation of the cellulose mushroom (SCOBY). Since vinegar producers are primary interested in the acetic acid and not the gluconic acid (which reduces the sharpness of the vinegar, making it appear weaker) the SCOBY formation is discouraged. In either vinegar or kombucha the yeasts are relatively unimportant. Their role is to produce alcohol. (they contribute to taste even the dead yeasts cells have a flavoring role but not a major role here) The Acetobacteraceae can utilize either sugar or alcohol, but production (time) is compromised if alcohol is not present. When alcohol is not present Acetobacteraceae may cannibalize acetic acid (turns to carbon dioxide and water). Acetobacteraceae is present in the air. But the specific species of Acetobacteraceae, as in vinegar or kombucha which strain is most important. reference: http://tinyurl.com/2nn87n Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com ................................................ Re: apple cider vs KT OT Posted by: " jim " jim@... jm_chng Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:48 am (PST) Hi , I make all my own vinegar, but the mother that I tried so hard to get in the beginning is totally unnecessary for making vinegar, in fact it will at best inhibit the growth of the acetobacters and at worst become a falling mother, rot and cause off flavours in your vinegar. Throw the mother in the bin. To make good vinegar is very easy but you need a good stock with the right amount of alcohol, a live vinegar starter which you obviously have and enough oxygen for fermentation. It's important to monitor the progress of your vinegar and stop the fermentation at the right time by bottling it or it will ferment to water and go bad. Write off list if you would like to know more. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Ed I don't think you understood what was being asked or what I replied to. I wasn't making any comments about kombucha. Acetobacteraceae is a family of bacteria to lump all species in one family together like that is like saying that strawberries, apples and plums are all the same. I was answering a question about cider vinegar and the 'mother' that had formed on the top of it. The acetobacter responsible for vinegar production is Acetobacter aceti it needs alcohol to make good vinegar you don't want yeast in there fermenting sugar while you're trying to ferment the alcohol. Even if you wanted to eventually make vinegar from grape juice you would avoid contamination with A. aceti at all costs. It is not the same as kombucha there is no SCOBY in vinegar production, there's no yeast involved in vinegar production after the alcohol is fermented from sugars. A pure culture of A. aceti will make a cellulose mass if fed pure -OH diluted enough in H20 with enough nutrients added to feed their metabolism. I have no opinion on this I'm just quoting facts. Again I'm not comparing or commenting on kombuch just answering an OT question about cider vinegar making. Jim ======================================== Message Received: Sep 17 2007, 07:41 PM From: " Happy Herbalist " kombucha tea Cc: Subject: Re: apple cider vs KT OT Jim, from what I understand the major difference between Vinegar and Kombucha is that kombucha has gluconic acid and vinegar does not. This is due to the different strain of Acetobacteraceae used. The Acetobacteraceae bacteria first produce acetic acid and then gluconic acid which initially lags behind. IMO, gluconic acid has something to do with the formation of the cellulose mushroom (SCOBY). Since vinegar producers are primary interested in the acetic acid and not the gluconic acid (which reduces the sharpness of the vinegar, making it appear weaker) the SCOBY formation is discouraged. In either vinegar or kombucha the yeasts are relatively unimportant. Their role is to produce alcohol. (they contribute to taste even the dead yeasts cells have a flavoring role but not a major role here) The Acetobacteraceae can utilize either sugar or alcohol, but production (time) is compromised if alcohol is not present. When alcohol is not present Acetobacteraceae may cannibalize acetic acid (turns to carbon dioxide and water). Acetobacteraceae is present in the air. But the specific species of Acetobacteraceae, as in vinegar or kombucha which strain is most important. reference: http://tinyurl.com/2nn87n Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com ................................................ Re: apple cider vs KT OT Posted by: " jim " jim@... jm_chng Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:48 am (PST) Hi , I make all my own vinegar, but the mother that I tried so hard to get in the beginning is totally unnecessary for making vinegar, in fact it will at best inhibit the growth of the acetobacters and at worst become a falling mother, rot and cause off flavours in your vinegar. Throw the mother in the bin. To make good vinegar is very easy but you need a good stock with the right amount of alcohol, a live vinegar starter which you obviously have and enough oxygen for fermentation. It's important to monitor the progress of your vinegar and stop the fermentation at the right time by bottling it or it will ferment to water and go bad. Write off list if you would like to know more. Jim Take care, Jim Ignorance is the root of all suffering. P SAVE A TREE... PLEASE DON'T PRINT THIS E-MAIL UNLESS YOU REALLY NEED TO… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Ed I don't think you understood what was being asked or what I replied to. I wasn't making any comments about kombucha. Acetobacteraceae is a family of bacteria to lump all species in one family together like that is like saying that strawberries, apples and plums are all the same. I was answering a question about cider vinegar and the 'mother' that had formed on the top of it. The acetobacter responsible for vinegar production is Acetobacter aceti it needs alcohol to make good vinegar you don't want yeast in there fermenting sugar while you're trying to ferment the alcohol. Even if you wanted to eventually make vinegar from grape juice you would avoid contamination with A. aceti at all costs. It is not the same as kombucha there is no SCOBY in vinegar production, there's no yeast involved in vinegar production after the alcohol is fermented from sugars. A pure culture of A. aceti will make a cellulose mass if fed pure -OH diluted enough in H20 with enough nutrients added to feed their metabolism. I have no opinion on this I'm just quoting facts. Again I'm not comparing or commenting on kombuch just answering an OT question about cider vinegar making. Jim ======================================== Message Received: Sep 17 2007, 07:41 PM From: " Happy Herbalist " kombucha tea Cc: Subject: Re: apple cider vs KT OT Jim, from what I understand the major difference between Vinegar and Kombucha is that kombucha has gluconic acid and vinegar does not. This is due to the different strain of Acetobacteraceae used. The Acetobacteraceae bacteria first produce acetic acid and then gluconic acid which initially lags behind. IMO, gluconic acid has something to do with the formation of the cellulose mushroom (SCOBY). Since vinegar producers are primary interested in the acetic acid and not the gluconic acid (which reduces the sharpness of the vinegar, making it appear weaker) the SCOBY formation is discouraged. In either vinegar or kombucha the yeasts are relatively unimportant. Their role is to produce alcohol. (they contribute to taste even the dead yeasts cells have a flavoring role but not a major role here) The Acetobacteraceae can utilize either sugar or alcohol, but production (time) is compromised if alcohol is not present. When alcohol is not present Acetobacteraceae may cannibalize acetic acid (turns to carbon dioxide and water). Acetobacteraceae is present in the air. But the specific species of Acetobacteraceae, as in vinegar or kombucha which strain is most important. reference: http://tinyurl.com/2nn87n Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com ................................................ Re: apple cider vs KT OT Posted by: " jim " jim@... jm_chng Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:48 am (PST) Hi , I make all my own vinegar, but the mother that I tried so hard to get in the beginning is totally unnecessary for making vinegar, in fact it will at best inhibit the growth of the acetobacters and at worst become a falling mother, rot and cause off flavours in your vinegar. Throw the mother in the bin. To make good vinegar is very easy but you need a good stock with the right amount of alcohol, a live vinegar starter which you obviously have and enough oxygen for fermentation. It's important to monitor the progress of your vinegar and stop the fermentation at the right time by bottling it or it will ferment to water and go bad. Write off list if you would like to know more. Jim Take care, Jim Ignorance is the root of all suffering. P SAVE A TREE... PLEASE DON'T PRINT THIS E-MAIL UNLESS YOU REALLY NEED TO… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Jim, I am referring to the formation of the mushroom. In modern vinegar making it is discouraged because it gums up the mechanical components of a vinegar generator or of a vinegar captivator, used in commercial production. In the older methods: As in the Orleans method (French) vinegar is made the same as one would make Continuous Brewing method for Kombucha, albeit more elaborate with wood and a in place funnel to enable adding fresh diluted alcohol without disturbing the forming mushroom. The belief there is that the acetic acid (vinegar) was being processed within the mushroom. The Italians Method uses similar casks without the funnel but go through a series of different wood casks (for tannins and flavors) that decrease in size to accommodate the loss of volume. Vinegar, as you say, is a separate distinct stage. First alcohol (yeasts) then bacteria. Kombucha is a simultaneous process. Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com .............................................................. Re: apple cider vs KT OT Posted by: " Jim " jim@... jm_chng Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:22 am (PST) Ed I don't think you understood what was being asked or what I replied to. I wasn't making any comments about kombucha. Acetobacteraceae is a family of bacteria to lump all species in one family together like that is like saying that strawberries, apples and plums are all the same. I was answering a question about cider vinegar and the 'mother' that had formed on the top of it. The acetobacter responsible for vinegar production is Acetobacter aceti it needs alcohol to make good vinegar you don't want yeast in there fermenting sugar while you're trying to ferment the alcohol. Even if you wanted to eventually make vinegar from grape juice you would avoid contamination with A. aceti at all costs. It is not the same as kombucha there is no SCOBY in vinegar production, there's no yeast involved in vinegar production after the alcohol is fermented from sugars. A pure culture of A. aceti will make a cellulose mass if fed pure -OH diluted enough in H20 with enough nutrients added to feed their metabolism. I have no opinion on this I'm just quoting facts. Again I'm not comparing or commenting on kombuch just answering an OT question about cider vinegar making. Jim ======================================== Message Received: Sep 17 2007, 07:41 PM From: " Happy Herbalist " kombucha tea Cc: Subject: Re: apple cider vs KT OT Jim, from what I understand the major difference between Vinegar and Kombucha is that kombucha has gluconic acid and vinegar does not. This is due to the different strain of Acetobacteraceae used. The Acetobacteraceae bacteria first produce acetic acid and then gluconic acid which initially lags behind. IMO, gluconic acid has something to do with the formation of the cellulose mushroom (SCOBY). Since vinegar producers are primary interested in the acetic acid and not the gluconic acid (which reduces the sharpness of the vinegar, making it appear weaker) the SCOBY formation is discouraged. In either vinegar or kombucha the yeasts are relatively unimportant. Their role is to produce alcohol. (they contribute to taste even the dead yeasts cells have a flavoring role but not a major role here) The Acetobacteraceae can utilize either sugar or alcohol, but production (time) is compromised if alcohol is not present. When alcohol is not present Acetobacteraceae may cannibalize acetic acid (turns to carbon dioxide and water). Acetobacteraceae is present in the air. But the specific species of Acetobacteraceae, as in vinegar or kombucha which strain is most important. reference: http://tinyurl.com/2nn87n Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com ................................................ Re: apple cider vs KT OT Posted by: " jim " jim@... jm_chng Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:48 am (PST) Hi , I make all my own vinegar, but the mother that I tried so hard to get in the beginning is totally unnecessary for making vinegar, in fact it will at best inhibit the growth of the acetobacters and at worst become a falling mother, rot and cause off flavours in your vinegar. Throw the mother in the bin. To make good vinegar is very easy but you need a good stock with the right amount of alcohol, a live vinegar starter which you obviously have and enough oxygen for fermentation. It's important to monitor the progress of your vinegar and stop the fermentation at the right time by bottling it or it will ferment to water and go bad. Write off list if you would like to know more. Jim Take care, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Jim, I am referring to the formation of the mushroom. In modern vinegar making it is discouraged because it gums up the mechanical components of a vinegar generator or of a vinegar captivator, used in commercial production. In the older methods: As in the Orleans method (French) vinegar is made the same as one would make Continuous Brewing method for Kombucha, albeit more elaborate with wood and a in place funnel to enable adding fresh diluted alcohol without disturbing the forming mushroom. The belief there is that the acetic acid (vinegar) was being processed within the mushroom. The Italians Method uses similar casks without the funnel but go through a series of different wood casks (for tannins and flavors) that decrease in size to accommodate the loss of volume. Vinegar, as you say, is a separate distinct stage. First alcohol (yeasts) then bacteria. Kombucha is a simultaneous process. Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com .............................................................. Re: apple cider vs KT OT Posted by: " Jim " jim@... jm_chng Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:22 am (PST) Ed I don't think you understood what was being asked or what I replied to. I wasn't making any comments about kombucha. Acetobacteraceae is a family of bacteria to lump all species in one family together like that is like saying that strawberries, apples and plums are all the same. I was answering a question about cider vinegar and the 'mother' that had formed on the top of it. The acetobacter responsible for vinegar production is Acetobacter aceti it needs alcohol to make good vinegar you don't want yeast in there fermenting sugar while you're trying to ferment the alcohol. Even if you wanted to eventually make vinegar from grape juice you would avoid contamination with A. aceti at all costs. It is not the same as kombucha there is no SCOBY in vinegar production, there's no yeast involved in vinegar production after the alcohol is fermented from sugars. A pure culture of A. aceti will make a cellulose mass if fed pure -OH diluted enough in H20 with enough nutrients added to feed their metabolism. I have no opinion on this I'm just quoting facts. Again I'm not comparing or commenting on kombuch just answering an OT question about cider vinegar making. Jim ======================================== Message Received: Sep 17 2007, 07:41 PM From: " Happy Herbalist " kombucha tea Cc: Subject: Re: apple cider vs KT OT Jim, from what I understand the major difference between Vinegar and Kombucha is that kombucha has gluconic acid and vinegar does not. This is due to the different strain of Acetobacteraceae used. The Acetobacteraceae bacteria first produce acetic acid and then gluconic acid which initially lags behind. IMO, gluconic acid has something to do with the formation of the cellulose mushroom (SCOBY). Since vinegar producers are primary interested in the acetic acid and not the gluconic acid (which reduces the sharpness of the vinegar, making it appear weaker) the SCOBY formation is discouraged. In either vinegar or kombucha the yeasts are relatively unimportant. Their role is to produce alcohol. (they contribute to taste even the dead yeasts cells have a flavoring role but not a major role here) The Acetobacteraceae can utilize either sugar or alcohol, but production (time) is compromised if alcohol is not present. When alcohol is not present Acetobacteraceae may cannibalize acetic acid (turns to carbon dioxide and water). Acetobacteraceae is present in the air. But the specific species of Acetobacteraceae, as in vinegar or kombucha which strain is most important. reference: http://tinyurl.com/2nn87n Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com ................................................ Re: apple cider vs KT OT Posted by: " jim " jim@... jm_chng Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:48 am (PST) Hi , I make all my own vinegar, but the mother that I tried so hard to get in the beginning is totally unnecessary for making vinegar, in fact it will at best inhibit the growth of the acetobacters and at worst become a falling mother, rot and cause off flavours in your vinegar. Throw the mother in the bin. To make good vinegar is very easy but you need a good stock with the right amount of alcohol, a live vinegar starter which you obviously have and enough oxygen for fermentation. It's important to monitor the progress of your vinegar and stop the fermentation at the right time by bottling it or it will ferment to water and go bad. Write off list if you would like to know more. Jim Take care, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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