Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Bev, that initially was my thought as well. However for the production of Gluconic Acid I have only been able to find it produced by Acetobacteraccae, specifically A. xylinum and glunco, found in Kombucha Tea and even one bacteria named __Gluconacetobacter kombuchae__ isolated in Kombucha Tea. Fruits and wines may naturally produce gluconic acid by Aspergillus niger - a pathogen - outside the lab, and one that occasionally attacks the kombucha ferment (Black Fuzzy Mold). Early research on the oxidation of sugar solutions by fungi has been confined mainly to a few strains of Aspergillus niger and species of Citromyces with very few scattered and rather casual references to the Aspergillus glaucus group, Penicillium glaucum, and Penicillium arenarium. [July 16, 1927 article THE PRODUCTION OF GLUCONIC ACID BY THE PENICILLITJM LTJTEUM-PlJRPUROGENTJM GROUP. I.] I am curious as to if any species of Lactobacillus can produce gluconic acid. As yet I have not found any connection. Also (I believe it was Sander) who awhile back, thought that Kombucha should be identified as a Gluconic Acid ferment as it always has a higher ratio of gluconic acid to acetic acid. Indeed it is (or should be) our goal to increase the production of gluconic acid as that contributes to health (well noted) and importantly to taste. The smoother, less vinegary tasting kombucha tea. Kombucha is placed in the aceto-ferment class because its the Acetobacteraccae bacteria that produces both acetic acid and gluconic acid. Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com .............................................. <<snipped ..........Therefore it seems that you would find Gluconic acid in many products fermented with natural sugar such as wines, etc along with Kombucha, and especially Kombucha made with honey. ... snipped>> earlier post from Sander End of SCOBY - Just a SCOB Dear Ed you wrote: > The species Lactobacillus can not on its own produce gluconic acid (the > third principle ingredient of kombucha) It can and often does produce a > cellulose (mushroom). However, IMO if honey was added to the fermenting > tea, (honey has gluconic acid) could one than produce kombucha tea with > just tea, honey and Lactobacillus camelliae ? Yes, honey contains gluconic acid. However, after dilution with tea, the concentration will be much lower than the concentration typically found in KT. Sander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Bev, that initially was my thought as well. However for the production of Gluconic Acid I have only been able to find it produced by Acetobacteraccae, specifically A. xylinum and glunco, found in Kombucha Tea and even one bacteria named __Gluconacetobacter kombuchae__ isolated in Kombucha Tea. Fruits and wines may naturally produce gluconic acid by Aspergillus niger - a pathogen - outside the lab, and one that occasionally attacks the kombucha ferment (Black Fuzzy Mold). Early research on the oxidation of sugar solutions by fungi has been confined mainly to a few strains of Aspergillus niger and species of Citromyces with very few scattered and rather casual references to the Aspergillus glaucus group, Penicillium glaucum, and Penicillium arenarium. [July 16, 1927 article THE PRODUCTION OF GLUCONIC ACID BY THE PENICILLITJM LTJTEUM-PlJRPUROGENTJM GROUP. I.] I am curious as to if any species of Lactobacillus can produce gluconic acid. As yet I have not found any connection. Also (I believe it was Sander) who awhile back, thought that Kombucha should be identified as a Gluconic Acid ferment as it always has a higher ratio of gluconic acid to acetic acid. Indeed it is (or should be) our goal to increase the production of gluconic acid as that contributes to health (well noted) and importantly to taste. The smoother, less vinegary tasting kombucha tea. Kombucha is placed in the aceto-ferment class because its the Acetobacteraccae bacteria that produces both acetic acid and gluconic acid. Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com .............................................. <<snipped ..........Therefore it seems that you would find Gluconic acid in many products fermented with natural sugar such as wines, etc along with Kombucha, and especially Kombucha made with honey. ... snipped>> earlier post from Sander End of SCOBY - Just a SCOB Dear Ed you wrote: > The species Lactobacillus can not on its own produce gluconic acid (the > third principle ingredient of kombucha) It can and often does produce a > cellulose (mushroom). However, IMO if honey was added to the fermenting > tea, (honey has gluconic acid) could one than produce kombucha tea with > just tea, honey and Lactobacillus camelliae ? Yes, honey contains gluconic acid. However, after dilution with tea, the concentration will be much lower than the concentration typically found in KT. Sander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Bev, that initially was my thought as well. However for the production of Gluconic Acid I have only been able to find it produced by Acetobacteraccae, specifically A. xylinum and glunco, found in Kombucha Tea and even one bacteria named __Gluconacetobacter kombuchae__ isolated in Kombucha Tea. Fruits and wines may naturally produce gluconic acid by Aspergillus niger - a pathogen - outside the lab, and one that occasionally attacks the kombucha ferment (Black Fuzzy Mold). Early research on the oxidation of sugar solutions by fungi has been confined mainly to a few strains of Aspergillus niger and species of Citromyces with very few scattered and rather casual references to the Aspergillus glaucus group, Penicillium glaucum, and Penicillium arenarium. [July 16, 1927 article THE PRODUCTION OF GLUCONIC ACID BY THE PENICILLITJM LTJTEUM-PlJRPUROGENTJM GROUP. I.] I am curious as to if any species of Lactobacillus can produce gluconic acid. As yet I have not found any connection. Also (I believe it was Sander) who awhile back, thought that Kombucha should be identified as a Gluconic Acid ferment as it always has a higher ratio of gluconic acid to acetic acid. Indeed it is (or should be) our goal to increase the production of gluconic acid as that contributes to health (well noted) and importantly to taste. The smoother, less vinegary tasting kombucha tea. Kombucha is placed in the aceto-ferment class because its the Acetobacteraccae bacteria that produces both acetic acid and gluconic acid. Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com .............................................. <<snipped ..........Therefore it seems that you would find Gluconic acid in many products fermented with natural sugar such as wines, etc along with Kombucha, and especially Kombucha made with honey. ... snipped>> earlier post from Sander End of SCOBY - Just a SCOB Dear Ed you wrote: > The species Lactobacillus can not on its own produce gluconic acid (the > third principle ingredient of kombucha) It can and often does produce a > cellulose (mushroom). However, IMO if honey was added to the fermenting > tea, (honey has gluconic acid) could one than produce kombucha tea with > just tea, honey and Lactobacillus camelliae ? Yes, honey contains gluconic acid. However, after dilution with tea, the concentration will be much lower than the concentration typically found in KT. Sander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi Ed, According to that article I posted Gluconic Acid was also found in wine. Didn't specify which wine..... Colleen , former list owner, used to make her Kombucha tea with pasteurized honey....wonder if that increased the Gluconic Acid even more... Peace, Love and Harmony, Bev > > > The species Lactobacillus can not on its own produce gluconic acid (the > > third principle ingredient of kombucha) It can and often does produce a > > cellulose (mushroom). However, IMO if honey was added to the fermenting > > tea, (honey has gluconic acid) could one than produce kombucha tea with > > just tea, honey and Lactobacillus camelliae ? > > Yes, honey contains gluconic acid. However, after dilution with tea, > the concentration will be much lower than the concentration typically > found in KT. > > Sander > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi Ed, According to that article I posted Gluconic Acid was also found in wine. Didn't specify which wine..... Colleen , former list owner, used to make her Kombucha tea with pasteurized honey....wonder if that increased the Gluconic Acid even more... Peace, Love and Harmony, Bev > > > The species Lactobacillus can not on its own produce gluconic acid (the > > third principle ingredient of kombucha) It can and often does produce a > > cellulose (mushroom). However, IMO if honey was added to the fermenting > > tea, (honey has gluconic acid) could one than produce kombucha tea with > > just tea, honey and Lactobacillus camelliae ? > > Yes, honey contains gluconic acid. However, after dilution with tea, > the concentration will be much lower than the concentration typically > found in KT. > > Sander > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 From what I understand, wine is kept as free as possible from bacteria, especially the Acetobacteracia and Lactobacillus. Don'y know of any yeasts that create glucoinic acid - but I am by far not educated. Please keep me posted if you come across any relationships. Does sound like a good reason to use honey (at least some) in the ferment. Ed Kasper LAc. and Family www.HappyHerbalist.com > > Hi Ed, > > According to that article I posted Gluconic Acid was also found in > wine. Didn't specify which wine..... > > Colleen , former list owner, used to make her Kombucha tea with > pasteurized honey....wonder if that increased the Gluconic Acid even > more... > > Peace, Love and Harmony, > Bev > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 From what I understand, wine is kept as free as possible from bacteria, especially the Acetobacteracia and Lactobacillus. Don'y know of any yeasts that create glucoinic acid - but I am by far not educated. Please keep me posted if you come across any relationships. Does sound like a good reason to use honey (at least some) in the ferment. Ed Kasper LAc. and Family www.HappyHerbalist.com > > Hi Ed, > > According to that article I posted Gluconic Acid was also found in > wine. Didn't specify which wine..... > > Colleen , former list owner, used to make her Kombucha tea with > pasteurized honey....wonder if that increased the Gluconic Acid even > more... > > Peace, Love and Harmony, > Bev > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi! From what I understand, gluconic acid in wine is usually the result of mold metabolism prior to vinification. Sander > > From what I understand, wine is kept as free as possible from bacteria, > especially the Acetobacteracia and Lactobacillus. Don'y know of any > yeasts that create glucoinic acid - but I am by far not educated. > Please keep me posted if you come across any relationships. > > Does sound like a good reason to use honey (at least some) in the > ferment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi! From what I understand, gluconic acid in wine is usually the result of mold metabolism prior to vinification. Sander > > From what I understand, wine is kept as free as possible from bacteria, > especially the Acetobacteracia and Lactobacillus. Don'y know of any > yeasts that create glucoinic acid - but I am by far not educated. > Please keep me posted if you come across any relationships. > > Does sound like a good reason to use honey (at least some) in the > ferment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi guys - Re: gluconic acid production in wine, both Ed and Sander are correct. Gluconic acid is the metabolic biproduct of both bacteria and mold common in wine and/or wine grapes. Both Acetobacter and Lactobacillus are found in low+ populations most red wines, and their production of gluconic acid is a result of the incomplete oxidation of glucose. Their growth is discouraged by the use of sulfur, though they are generally impossible to irradicate, with the exeption of sending the wine through a sterile filter. Gluconic acid is also produced by mold in wine grapes, found more typically found in dessert wines than dry table wines. Newly harvested grapes are typically sorted before crushing to remove any clusters showing signs of rot, though in each vintage some grapes are left hanging on the vine late into Fall in hopes of becoming infected with the one desirable wine grape mold, Botrytis cinerea (noble rot). Wines made from grapes affected with noble rot are almost always identified/served as dessert wines (the rot dehydrates the berry and concentrates the sugar), and will have a gluconic acid content of 1-5g per liter. For comparison, table wines (non-dessert, non-fortified, the red or white you're probably most accustomed to drinking) made from healthy grapes should have a gluconic acid content of <0.5g/L, and wines affected by gray rot (which produces gluconic acid at a much more rapid rate, and not tasty in their own right) >5g per liter. Hooray for all things fermented... Molly A winemaker from Sonoma, California --------------------------------- oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi guys - Re: gluconic acid production in wine, both Ed and Sander are correct. Gluconic acid is the metabolic biproduct of both bacteria and mold common in wine and/or wine grapes. Both Acetobacter and Lactobacillus are found in low+ populations most red wines, and their production of gluconic acid is a result of the incomplete oxidation of glucose. Their growth is discouraged by the use of sulfur, though they are generally impossible to irradicate, with the exeption of sending the wine through a sterile filter. Gluconic acid is also produced by mold in wine grapes, found more typically found in dessert wines than dry table wines. Newly harvested grapes are typically sorted before crushing to remove any clusters showing signs of rot, though in each vintage some grapes are left hanging on the vine late into Fall in hopes of becoming infected with the one desirable wine grape mold, Botrytis cinerea (noble rot). Wines made from grapes affected with noble rot are almost always identified/served as dessert wines (the rot dehydrates the berry and concentrates the sugar), and will have a gluconic acid content of 1-5g per liter. For comparison, table wines (non-dessert, non-fortified, the red or white you're probably most accustomed to drinking) made from healthy grapes should have a gluconic acid content of <0.5g/L, and wines affected by gray rot (which produces gluconic acid at a much more rapid rate, and not tasty in their own right) >5g per liter. Hooray for all things fermented... Molly A winemaker from Sonoma, California --------------------------------- oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.