Re: Brain waves pulsing

[Guest guest]

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy.  You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel.  It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly.  And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??

It is kind of like his waves are all tied together.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete

How would you set training parameters for heart beat with someone overweight.

Mark

Re: Brain waves pulsing

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy. You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel. It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly. And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

I have no idea how to interpret the brain waves:) luckily I am doing pretty well with the treatment Connie Re: Brain waves pulsing

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy. You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel. It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly. And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

Mark,If someone is producing ECG artifact, you can see the regular pulsing in the oscilloscope.  Usually earlobes are a major culprit, so I move from the ears to mastoids or use a bipolar montage.  Occasionally I have managed to get a head lead directly over a blood vessel under the scalp and moving the offending electrode will fix the problem.

I don't recall having personally run into a client where we couldn't get away from the pulse.  I'd be hesitant to try to set up a " filter " in the specific frequency where the pulse occurs to filter it out, but that's possible.  Heartrates usually run from, say, 50-90 pulses per minute, which would be from around 0.8 to 1.5 Hz.  Putting a filter down there with a threshold that blocks sudden amplitude surges would at least block the signal at those times.

Pete -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA'>http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote:

 

Hi Pete

How would you set training parameters for heart beat with someone overweight.

Mark

Re: Brain waves pulsing

 

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy.  You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel.  It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly.  And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

Connie,We're not talking here about recognizing the difference between a Mu-wave and Alpha or any of the fancier determinations.  If you watch the oscilloscope, you'll get comfortable reading what EEG activity looks like:  it is not generally repetitive or overly consistent.  When all the wave forms are roughly the same height, instead of taller and shorter, that's probably not brain.  If the width of the waves are very consistent rather than shifting to wider (slower) and narrower (faster) patterns, again, that's probably something " mechanical " rather than " organic " .  Sudden spikes, especially what they are repetitive, probably also indicate a problem.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:20 PM, Connie Welsh <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

I have no idea how to interpret the brain waves:)  luckily I am doing pretty well with the treatment   Connie

Re: Brain waves pulsing

 

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy.  You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel.  It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly.  And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??

It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

I understand. I just don't know what to do with this artifact. I will try to use the mastoids and see if that helps.

Connie Re: Brain waves pulsing

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy. You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel. It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly. And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

What are the impedance numbers?BruceSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerryFrom: Connie Welsh <conniewelsh@...>Sender: Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 08:15:49 -0500 (EST)< >Reply Subject: Re: Brain waves pulsing I understand. I just don't know what to do with this artifact. I will try to use the mastoids and see if that helps. Connie Re: Brain waves pulsing Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy. You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel. It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly. And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote: Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

I have an atlantas and they look fine. I am making progress with this guy but I think it is mostly from just going for symptoms and not using the assessment. Now I think the assessment must have been off.Connie Re: Brain waves pulsing

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy. You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel. It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly. And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

Before making any conclustions it helps to get the facts, that is why I asked for the impedence numbers. What were the numbers?

Bruce

Re: Brain waves pulsing

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy. You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel. It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly. And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

If the lights are green on the Atlantis, I believe the impedence is less than 10 ohms but I am not sure. If they are green, I assume good impedence.

I am fairly sure it is artifact from his heart beat.

Connie

Connie Re: Brain waves pulsing

Connie,Regular pulses, depending on their frequency, can often be related to artifact, especially ECG. Especially with clients who are heavy. You may be picking up pulsing in a blood vessel. It's not common to see any kind of regular oscillation that affects all frequencies repeatedly. And since such an artifact would be expected to result in activity at all sites coming from the same source (the artifact), that would be a rule-out in a case where coherences were generally high.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Connie <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??It is kind of like his waves are all tied together. Connie

[Guest guest]

I had something similar happen while training T3. 8 minutes into the session,

the raw EEG went from about -35/35 to -45/45 with an across the board spike in

all frequncies up to 58hz. They all looked pritty much the same hight. There was

no loose connection, the client did not look to be suddenly tensing muscles and

than after a few minutes of this the raw went back to the pre event occurance

and the spectrum returned to looking more normal.

I have no clue what might have caused this artifact. If it was ECG, one would

expect that to be pritty constant and not suddenly cause artifact and than

dissapear again.

Any ideas appreciated.

Bruce

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>

> Hi all, I have a guy who's brain waves appear to be pulsing. The raw EEG looks

ok but when I look at the spectrum, it looks likes all the waves get big and

then they all get small. Kind of like an accordion. He has high coherence's and

I am training that. He is getting good results with the protocols I am using but

his brain waves just look weird to me. Any ideas??

>

> It is kind of like his waves are all tied together.

>

> Connie

>

[Guest guest]

Bruce,What were you looking at that showed this:  spectrum analyzer, oscilloscope?  Did you happen to be recording it?  If so, send it along to me.  I'd like to see it.Thanks,Pete

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:28 PM, thor432001 <MindFitness@...> wrote:

 

I had something similar happen while training T3. 8 minutes into the session, the raw EEG went from about -35/35 to -45/45 with an across the board spike in all frequncies up to 58hz. They all looked pritty much the same hight. There was no loose connection, the client did not look to be suddenly tensing muscles and than after a few minutes of this the raw went back to the pre event occurance and the spectrum returned to looking more normal.

I have no clue what might have caused this artifact. If it was ECG, one would expect that to be pritty constant and not suddenly cause artifact and than dissapear again.

Any ideas appreciated.

Bruce

[Guest guest]

How do I send you the file from biograph infinity in way that you could look at it since you don't have that software?

Yes, I was recording it. I was using three bar graphs to train the person. What I noticed was that about 8 minutes into the session the emg bar graph doubled and the 15-18 bar graph about doubled too. The theta bar graph seemed unaffected. This was constant for about 4 minutes than returned to the pre elevation levels. When I looked at the raw off line later, that 4 minute period showed a lot thicker of a raw wave and the spectrogram showed pritty much equal levels of energy across the bandwiths for that 4 minutes. I checked the sensors they were the same, Having the client relax his muscles, facial forehead ect made no impact. After the session I showed him how he could make the emg go higher by gulping, tightening, etch and had him practice doing that and not doing that but the pattern was different. EMG with him and others have been episodic elevations not four minutes .

One thought I had was maybe it was windows doing some background tasks and pinning the CPU but I have no way of knowing that with the data I have so far.

Bruce

Re: Re: Brain waves pulsing

Bruce,What were you looking at that showed this: spectrum analyzer, oscilloscope? Did you happen to be recording it? If so, send it along to me. I'd like to see it.Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:28 PM, thor432001 <MindFitness@...> wrote:

I had something similar happen while training T3. 8 minutes into the session, the raw EEG went from about -35/35 to -45/45 with an across the board spike in all frequncies up to 58hz. They all looked pritty much the same hight. There was no loose connection, the client did not look to be suddenly tensing muscles and than after a few minutes of this the raw went back to the pre event occurance and the spectrum returned to looking more normal. I have no clue what might have caused this artifact. If it was ECG, one would expect that to be pritty constant and not suddenly cause artifact and than dissapear again.Any ideas appreciated.Bruce

[Guest guest]

Bruce,Sorry, you're right, I don't have Infiniti active on this computer, so I can't play back the session.  It sounds like it's not a surging, just an overall increase that lasts a few minutes then goes away.  That sounds more like an electrical interference than anything else.  Does it happen with any regularity or just in that one case?  Happen with other clients?

Windows doesn't do backgroound tasks that take CPU usage up very high.  I wouldn't worry about that.  Hopefully you won't see it again.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 3:53 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

 

How do I send you the file from biograph infinity in way that you could look at it since you don't have that software?

 

Yes, I was recording it. I was using three bar graphs to train the person. What I noticed was that about 8 minutes into the session the emg bar graph doubled and the 15-18 bar graph about doubled too. The theta bar graph seemed unaffected. This was constant for about 4 minutes than returned to the pre elevation levels.  When I looked at the raw off line later, that 4 minute period showed a lot thicker of a raw wave and the spectrogram showed pritty much equal levels of energy across the bandwiths for that 4 minutes. I checked the sensors they were the same, Having the client relax his muscles, facial forehead ect made no impact. After the session I showed him how he could make the emg go higher by gulping, tightening, etch and had him practice doing that and not doing that but the pattern was different. EMG with him and others have been episodic elevations not four minutes  .

 

One thought I had was maybe it was windows doing some background tasks and pinning the CPU but I have no way of knowing that with the data I have so far.

 

Bruce

 

 

 

Re: Re: Brain waves pulsing

 

Bruce,What were you looking at that showed this:  spectrum analyzer, oscilloscope?  Did you happen to be recording it?  If so, send it along to me.  I'd like to see it.Thanks,Pete

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:28 PM, thor432001 <MindFitness@...> wrote:

 

I had something similar happen while training T3. 8 minutes into the session, the raw EEG went from about -35/35 to -45/45 with an across the board spike in all frequncies up to 58hz. They all looked pritty much the same hight. There was no loose connection, the client did not look to be suddenly tensing muscles and than after a few minutes of this the raw went back to the pre event occurance and the spectrum returned to looking more normal.

I have no clue what might have caused this artifact. If it was ECG, one would expect that to be pritty constant and not suddenly cause artifact and than dissapear again.Any ideas appreciated.Bruce

[Guest guest]

Here are some screen shots that might help

Bruce

Re: Re: Brain waves pulsing

Bruce,What were you looking at that showed this: spectrum analyzer, oscilloscope? Did you happen to be recording it? If so, send it along to me. I'd like to see it.Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:28 PM, thor432001 <MindFitness@...> wrote:

I had something similar happen while training T3. 8 minutes into the session, the raw EEG went from about -35/35 to -45/45 with an across the board spike in all frequncies up to 58hz. They all looked pritty much the same hight. There was no loose connection, the client did not look to be suddenly tensing muscles and than after a few minutes of this the raw went back to the pre event occurance and the spectrum returned to looking more normal. I have no clue what might have caused this artifact. If it was ECG, one would expect that to be pritty constant and not suddenly cause artifact and than dissapear again.Any ideas appreciated.Bruce

2 of 2 File(s)

bruce1.jpg

bruce2.jpg

[Guest guest]

Well one week before the entire session had twice the emg that it normaly has for this person. That lasted the whole session and I have yet too look at the full spectrum to see if a similar dynamic was going on. It's never happened with any one else or with him before.

However, I have recieved messages sometimes from biograph every now and than telling me that feedback might be delayed due to something(limited resources, cpu, etc). I believe that this message came while norton suite was engaged in some background task.

Bruce Re: Re: Brain waves pulsing

Bruce,What were you looking at that showed this: spectrum analyzer, oscilloscope? Did you happen to be recording it? If so, send it along to me. I'd like to see it.Thanks,Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:28 PM, thor432001 <MindFitness@...> wrote:

I had something similar happen while training T3. 8 minutes into the session, the raw EEG went from about -35/35 to -45/45 with an across the board spike in all frequncies up to 58hz. They all looked pritty much the same hight. There was no loose connection, the client did not look to be suddenly tensing muscles and than after a few minutes of this the raw went back to the pre event occurance and the spectrum returned to looking more normal. I have no clue what might have caused this artifact. If it was ECG, one would expect that to be pritty constant and not suddenly cause artifact and than dissapear again.Any ideas appreciated.Bruce

[Guest guest]

This sounds like something that would be worth checking out with Thought Tech.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 7:38 PM, <MindFitness@...> wrote:

 

 

Well one week before  the entire session had twice the emg that it normaly has for this person. That lasted the whole session and I have yet too look at the full spectrum to see if a similar dynamic was going on. It's never happened with any one else or with him before.

 

However, I have recieved messages sometimes from biograph every now and than telling me that feedback might be delayed due to something(limited resources, cpu, etc). I believe that this message came while norton suite was engaged in some background task.

 

Bruce Re: Re: Brain waves pulsing 

Bruce,What were you looking at that showed this:  spectrum analyzer, oscilloscope?  Did you happen to be recording it?  If so, send it along to me.  I'd like to see it.Thanks,Pete

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:28 PM, thor432001 <MindFitness@...> wrote:

 

I had something similar happen while training T3. 8 minutes into the session, the raw EEG went from about -35/35 to -45/45 with an across the board spike in all frequncies up to 58hz. They all looked pritty much the same hight. There was no loose connection, the client did not look to be suddenly tensing muscles and than after a few minutes of this the raw went back to the pre event occurance and the spectrum returned to looking more normal.

I have no clue what might have caused this artifact. If it was ECG, one would expect that to be pritty constant and not suddenly cause artifact and than dissapear again.Any ideas appreciated.Bruce

[Guest guest]

Well on further exploration, it appears that with this particular client, at

least at T3 this has been going on at times for the entire session and at times

for just some segment of the session.

I hooked myself up with the same placement and when I open my eyes wide and keep

them open I get the exact same look to my spectrum as he had.

Bruce

> >>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> I had something similar happen while training T3. 8 minutes into the

> >>>> session, the raw EEG went from about -35/35 to -45/45 with an across the

> >>>> board spike in all frequncies up to 58hz. They all looked pritty much the

> >>>> same hight. There was no loose connection, the client did not look to be

> >>>> suddenly tensing muscles and than after a few minutes of this the raw

went

> >>>> back to the pre event occurance and the spectrum returned to looking more

> >>>> normal.

> >>>>

> >>>> I have no clue what might have caused this artifact. If it was ECG, one

> >>>> would expect that to be pritty constant and not suddenly cause artifact

and

> >>>> than dissapear again.

> >>>>

> >>>> Any ideas appreciated.

> >>>>

> >>>> Bruce

> >>>>

> >>>

> >>

> >

> >

>