Re: Help with Suicidal Woman

[Guest guest]

Here is how I'd think about your experience with this woman:

The worsening of symptoms you describe sound like you are using a reward

frequency that is too high for her brain. The result is that you are making her

anxiety worse instead of better.

I would start with a very simple protocol: C4-A2, inhibiting 4-7 and 22-36, and

rewarding 11-14 for 10 minutes. Slowly decrease that reward (by .25 hz at a

time) until the client begins to feel better. If she notices a change in her

anxiety levels during the actual training you can lower the reward in that

session. If the sx don't arise until 1-2 days later, then lower the rew at the

next session if she continues to report the SI and dry heaves.

Hope that helps,

Sue Gill

>

> Dear Group,

>

> I am looking for some advice on how to proceed with a 58 year-old woman who

has extreme anxiety and depression. I have been training her for about 20

sessions with no real change. One day she comes in a little better and the next

she is calling me early in the morning telling me that she is having dry heaves

and suicidal thoughts. She has developed a new symptom since training and she

keeps asking me to help her with it...her jaw chatters uncontrollably and also

morning nausea and vomiting. I believe this is the extreme anxiety in her

stomach that is causing this reaction. In the past she mentioned that she has

had the stomach/vomiting issue, but that it is coming back. I have been

training her the following protocol since the beginning:

> and in the beginning it seemed to be helping as she said that " her brain felt

better " ... but now.. it is not effective:

> HERE IS THE PROTOCOL:

>

> FzA1gCzA2 EO 10min. SQUASHING HIGH FREQ 15-38 DOWN

> FzA1gCzA2 EC 10min. Sometimes I will do the EO at Cz and the EC at Pz

instead of Cz. SQUASHING HIGH FREQ 15-38 DOWN

> FP1MC2 Rumination design INH(1-11.5,15.5-38) REW (12-15)

> C4Pz 10 min INH ( 2-13, 13-38) REW (12-15)

>

> Then I have also tried the Anti D protocol, quieting temporals for she does

have hot temperals although I can't seem to get them to respond to anything and

quieting P3P4 as well as have done Slow alpha kill as she does have slow alpha

and it does not block very good.

>

> She does have a hot cigulate with more activity at Fz then F3F4...and low

SMR 9% have done some SMR...but not alot. Her alpha coherences are all low

across the board and have done some coherence, but really she is an extreme

anxietist to the point that she coming in the office panting.

>

> I really could use some great advice on how to address this extreme anxiety.

Also wanted feedback to see if anybody has use the BAUD on clients with

Anxiety/depression and how that worked for them.

>

> Also, I was wondering if the chattering teeth and nausea could be a form of

abreaction to the NF?

>

> For a little history on this lady. She has been on meds since she was 21

years old...where it all started with a " confidence " problem...she has had shock

therapy in her 20's that seem to work for about 6 months and then it wore off,

she had shock therapy again in her 50's and it did not work. She has tried

every med out there is currently taking Seroquel but its not effective. She is

desperate and quite frankly...so are we!

>

> Any recommendations or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Thank you in advance

> Joanie

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you everyone for this wonderful feedback. I am going to work each of your

suggestions into her program!!!

Thanks again!

Joanie

>

> Hi Joanie

>

> this is something I see a lot of in my practice. My standard is a two channel

bipolar montage C4-P4 + T4-Fp2.

>

> I reward the C4-P4 at alpha 8-12 Hz and inhibit 15-35 Hz.

> For T4-Fp2 I reward 2-5 Hz and inhibit 9-35 Hz. Sewt the auto threshold at

double inhibits 75-85 to reduce artifact.

>

> If she has a strong alpha ridge at C4-P4 please do not reward it, change it to

C4 SMR.

>

> If there is depression after a few days stick with the T4-Fp2 and move the

other channel to T3 rewarding 15-20 Hz and inhibiting 3-11 Hz and 22-35 Hz. I

find that most anxious / depressed clients do not really have depression, they

just feel depressed because of the limiting nature of the anxiety. Trying to

reward the left side to reduce depression can often make their anxiety worse.

>

> If you are worried about the low frequency then try it yourself and you will

know what it feels like. The frontal placement quietens the mind nicely, I use

it for " racing negative thoughts " and suicidal thoughts - it works. Good luck

and let us know how it goes.

>

>

> Regards

> Noel Eastwood

> Psychologist

> Learnwise - Noel Eastwood Psychology

> Canberra, Australia

> Ph: 02 6162 0914

> Fax: 02 6162 0915

> Web: www.nenfb.com

> Psychology, Counselling, Neurofeedback, Fast ForWord

>

> Bioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in

Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session

in Bioexplorer.

>

> Important: This email remains the property of Learnwise and Noel Eastwood

Psychology, and is subject to legal privilege. If you have received this email

in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete this email.

>

[Guest guest]

found this very interesting information

thank you for sharing

a few questions questions though

may i assume that this is done with EC?

when you increase the T3 with 15-20Hz are you doing this with EO and have you

seen any adverse reactions to this?

have you ever tried following this with the anti-ruminating protocol?

i wonder how that would work...

pete and I have discussed doing several protocols to tackle the same issue

so for instance

hot cing gir

inhibit the midline then follow it with the Fp1 MC2

i have used this and it seems to really kick butt

so i would be curious to try this with what your suggesting

okay

just thinking out loud here

thanks again for the interesting ideas

shar

>

> Hi Joanie

>

> this is something I see a lot of in my practice. My standard is a two channel

bipolar montage C4-P4 + T4-Fp2.

>

> I reward the C4-P4 at alpha 8-12 Hz and inhibit 15-35 Hz.

> For T4-Fp2 I reward 2-5 Hz and inhibit 9-35 Hz. Sewt the auto threshold at

double inhibits 75-85 to reduce artifact.

>

> If she has a strong alpha ridge at C4-P4 please do not reward it, change it to

C4 SMR.

>

> If there is depression after a few days stick with the T4-Fp2 and move the

other channel to T3 rewarding 15-20 Hz and inhibiting 3-11 Hz and 22-35 Hz. I

find that most anxious / depressed clients do not really have depression, they

just feel depressed because of the limiting nature of the anxiety. Trying to

reward the left side to reduce depression can often make their anxiety worse.

>

> If you are worried about the low frequency then try it yourself and you will

know what it feels like. The frontal placement quietens the mind nicely, I use

it for " racing negative thoughts " and suicidal thoughts - it works. Good luck

and let us know how it goes.

>

>

> Regards

> Noel Eastwood

> Psychologist

> Learnwise - Noel Eastwood Psychology

> Canberra, Australia

> Ph: 02 6162 0914

> Fax: 02 6162 0915

> Web: www.nenfb.com

> Psychology, Counselling, Neurofeedback, Fast ForWord

>

> Bioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in

Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session

in Bioexplorer.

>

> Important: This email remains the property of Learnwise and Noel Eastwood

Psychology, and is subject to legal privilege. If you have received this email

in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete this email.

>

[Guest guest]

I have most recently heard that when the delta and the theta are greater on the

LH and frontal lobe compared tothe central with EC that it is a sure sign of a

suicidal person. I had never heard this before and this does not seem logical to

me. i was wondering if anyone has ever heard this before and if so can you

expand on this so that I may understand it better.

Thanks so much for the input.

> >

> > Hi Shar, this is more than interesting, it is life saving.

> >

> > The protocol is eyes open. Don't be fooled by the low frequency, the right

prefrontal - orbito frontal cortex, does not like fast wave activity, it is the

most sensitive of all brain sites and as such likes slow waves, very slow waves.

> >

> > If you look at Allan Shore's work on the orbito frontal cortex you will see

the connection between rumination (suicidal thoughts), over arousal, anxiety,

panic, RAD and the right orbito frontal cortex. In autopsies of people with

mental illness, autism, schizophrenia etc it is always the right orbito frontal

cortex that is wasted away - damaged. We see the impact of stress hormone on the

CNS (stress is a major factor in mental illness) and it appears that the right

orbito frontal cortex (Fp2, Fpo2) is the most commonly damaged site.

> >

> > By adding T4 to the montage it makes it easier to set the reward frequency,

less fiddling around and in my experience it works better, lasts longer and has

outstanding results.

> >

> > May I add that with severe mental illness, panic attacks, bipolar, etc. it

is not a quick fix, it can still take a few years to bring them to complete

health, but within one or two sessions they are well enough to manage without

the suicidal thoughts, and that is a major breakthrough.

> >

> > The T4-Fp2 does what T4 or C4, C4-P4 etc. cannot, and that is immediate

relief with long term return to full health. Add a good quality Vitamin B

complex and they have a chance of full recovery.

> >

> > I hope this has helped.

> >

> > Regards

> > Noel Eastwood

> > Psychologist

> > Learnwise - Noel Eastwood Psychology

> > Canberra, Australia

> > Ph: 02 6162 0914

> > Fax: 02 6162 0915

> > Web: www.nenfb.com

> > Psychology, Counselling, Neurofeedback, Fast ForWord

> >

> > Bioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in

Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session

in Bioexplorer.

> >

> > Important: This email remains the property of Learnwise and Noel Eastwood

Psychology, and is subject to legal privilege. If you have received this email

in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete this email.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharrie,

I remember Barb mentioning this during our morning conference call, however, I

am sure that the LH elevation in delta/theta imbalance was not a sure sign of

suicidal thought but a most certain sign of a " confidence " problem. I am pretty

impressed with this assessment because this is a running theme in this woman's

life...and what started her down the road on meds at age 21. She went to see a

doc for her " confidence " problem, which most certainly exists today as well.

BTW, I wanted to thank you for all your help as I have not responded to some of

your emails and requests. Upon completion of the morning conference call I know

that I was suppose to email you something, but I can't remember...did it have to

do something with the BAUD? I think so. I would like to order this device and

start using it on this woman. Anyway, do you recall what it was that you

wanted me to email you. Again, my apologies for not being more up-to-speed!

Have a wonderful holiday!

Joanie

> > >

> > > Hi Shar, this is more than interesting, it is life saving.

> > >

> > > The protocol is eyes open. Don't be fooled by the low frequency, the right

prefrontal - orbito frontal cortex, does not like fast wave activity, it is the

most sensitive of all brain sites and as such likes slow waves, very slow waves.

> > >

> > > If you look at Allan Shore's work on the orbito frontal cortex you will

see the connection between rumination (suicidal thoughts), over arousal,

anxiety, panic, RAD and the right orbito frontal cortex. In autopsies of people

with mental illness, autism, schizophrenia etc it is always the right orbito

frontal cortex that is wasted away - damaged. We see the impact of stress

hormone on the CNS (stress is a major factor in mental illness) and it appears

that the right orbito frontal cortex (Fp2, Fpo2) is the most commonly damaged

site.

> > >

> > > By adding T4 to the montage it makes it easier to set the reward

frequency, less fiddling around and in my experience it works better, lasts

longer and has outstanding results.

> > >

> > > May I add that with severe mental illness, panic attacks, bipolar, etc. it

is not a quick fix, it can still take a few years to bring them to complete

health, but within one or two sessions they are well enough to manage without

the suicidal thoughts, and that is a major breakthrough.

> > >

> > > The T4-Fp2 does what T4 or C4, C4-P4 etc. cannot, and that is immediate

relief with long term return to full health. Add a good quality Vitamin B

complex and they have a chance of full recovery.

> > >

> > > I hope this has helped.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > > Noel Eastwood

> > > Psychologist

> > > Learnwise - Noel Eastwood Psychology

> > > Canberra, Australia

> > > Ph: 02 6162 0914

> > > Fax: 02 6162 0915

> > > Web: www.nenfb.com

> > > Psychology, Counselling, Neurofeedback, Fast ForWord

> > >

> > > Bioexplorer Training videos:- Creating your own Basic Protocols in

Bioexplorer; Getting Started in Bioexplorer; Running and Screening Your Session

in Bioexplorer.

> > >

> > > Important: This email remains the property of Learnwise and Noel Eastwood

Psychology, and is subject to legal privilege. If you have received this email

in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete this email.

> > >

> >

>