Re: Does musical frequency correlate to underlying subconsious frequencies?

[Guest guest]

I would tend to think it's more cultural, but that's just me (?)Liz M.On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:00 AM, neurosynchrony <neurosynchrony@...> wrote:

 

Much of this conversation is way over my head in regard to music theory, but is very interesting nonetheless as I come from a very musical family. I have a friend who is a composer of mostly atonal, dissonant orchestral music. It makes me uncomfortable to listen to much of his music and I simply don't understand it despite him winning various awards for his work.

I had a discussion with him regarding subconscious emotional states and musical taste. To me, his music leaves me in a state of emotional disarray, whereas he feels very satisfied listening to it. He experienced loss of a loved one at a very early age and has never grieved. I asked him if he writes music as a way to express in a non-verbal way what he is feeling emotionally, and he agreed. He stated that life was never completely tonal.

I wonder how much of our musical taste has to do with the dominant brain state we live in. I wonder if the frequency of music or tones that one find's pleasing correlates to the dominant frequencies of the underlying brain states?

Would undergoing Neurofeedback change someone's taste in music?

-

>

> Liz,

>

> Just two anecdotes to add to the conversation:

>

> I have one client who thinks it's a good day when his sessions sound more " melodic " than other days. I've listened to those allegedly more melodic sessions, and I don't hear anything much different from a session that struck him as more cacophonous. I can't figure out why he thinks as he does, and he doesn't analyze it, so it's not really a problem, but it is interesting to me.

>

> And, a few years ago, I helped one home trainer whose mother is a music professor. She couldn't stand the tones for any of the protocols her teen was supposed to be using, simply because they weren't melodic, and she didn't care that creating a melody wasn't the point...she just couldn't make herself stop trying to create something that wasn't going to be there. Had she been the one doing the training, I would've probably had to use alternative tones like the waves and seagulls or chanter. Otherwise, I suspect it would've been so distracting that she'd have gone bonkers just focusing on allowing the tones to be what they are without discernable patterns.

>

> That makes me wonder what the reaction to training is among all those university students in London who've been studied so much...

>

> Tamera

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I can tell you that it does. In fact it's one of my markers to identify whether

the NF is having

any effect on the client.

If one thinks about this it's obvious that NF has to have an effect on

like/dislike of music. As you know

music has a beat which is a frequency. If one is changing one's brain frequency

by NF the type of music

one listen to has to change as well. On the whole the person doing NF starts

listening to a more varied

type of music, as well as to diferent types of beats.

All the best,

-------

Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://cienciacognitiva.planetaclix.pt/

________________________________

De: em nome de neurosynchrony

Enviada: sex 7/16/2010 07:00

Para:

Assunto: Does musical frequency correlate to underlying

subconsious frequencies?

Much of this conversation is way over my head in regard to music theory, but is

very interesting nonetheless as I come from a very musical family. I have a

friend who is a composer of mostly atonal, dissonant orchestral music. It makes

me uncomfortable to listen to much of his music and I simply don't understand it

despite him winning various awards for his work.

I had a discussion with him regarding subconscious emotional states and musical

taste. To me, his music leaves me in a state of emotional disarray, whereas he

feels very satisfied listening to it. He experienced loss of a loved one at a

very early age and has never grieved. I asked him if he writes music as a way to

express in a non-verbal way what he is feeling emotionally, and he agreed. He

stated that life was never completely tonal.

I wonder how much of our musical taste has to do with the dominant brain state

we live in. I wonder if the frequency of music or tones that one find's pleasing

correlates to the dominant frequencies of the underlying brain states?

Would undergoing Neurofeedback change someone's taste in music?

-

>

> Liz,

>

> Just two anecdotes to add to the conversation:

>

> I have one client who thinks it's a good day when his sessions sound more

" melodic " than other days. I've listened to those allegedly more melodic

sessions, and I don't hear anything much different from a session that struck

him as more cacophonous. I can't figure out why he thinks as he does, and he

doesn't analyze it, so it's not really a problem, but it is interesting to me.

>

> And, a few years ago, I helped one home trainer whose mother is a music

professor. She couldn't stand the tones for any of the protocols her teen was

supposed to be using, simply because they weren't melodic, and she didn't care

that creating a melody wasn't the point...she just couldn't make herself stop

trying to create something that wasn't going to be there. Had she been the one

doing the training, I would've probably had to use alternative tones like the

waves and seagulls or chanter. Otherwise, I suspect it would've been so

distracting that she'd have gone bonkers just focusing on allowing the tones to

be what they are without discernable patterns.

>

> That makes me wonder what the reaction to training is among all those

university students in London who've been studied so much...

>

> Tamera

>

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Based on some research done years ago, we used to use a tape player (to show you how old this was) to play music in the background during our sessions in Atlanta.  60-beat Baroque (e.g. air on a G string, Pachelbel Canon) definitely helped people into the middle frequencies, especially alpha.  Mozart, the faster sections of some of his works, especially with higher pitched solo instruments (clarinet, violin) tended to help people produce a beta state.  We played these in the background and were regularly asked to make copies of the tapes for kids or parents to have at home.  Of course now I would just rip a song from a CD or download it as an MP3 and play it in the background in the Audio Player.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:11 PM, <jorge.alvoeiro@...> wrote:

 

Hi ,

I can tell you that it does. In fact it's one of my markers to identify whether the NF is having

any effect on the client.

If one thinks about this it's obvious that NF has to have an effect on like/dislike of music. As you know

music has a beat which is a frequency. If one is changing one's brain frequency by NF the type of music

one listen to has to change as well. On the whole the person doing NF starts listening to a more varied

type of music, as well as to diferent types of beats.

All the best,

-------

Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://cienciacognitiva.planetaclix.pt/

________________________________

De: em nome de neurosynchrony

Enviada: sex 7/16/2010 07:00

Para:

Assunto: Does musical frequency correlate to underlying subconsious frequencies?

Much of this conversation is way over my head in regard to music theory, but is very interesting nonetheless as I come from a very musical family. I have a friend who is a composer of mostly atonal, dissonant orchestral music. It makes me uncomfortable to listen to much of his music and I simply don't understand it despite him winning various awards for his work.

I had a discussion with him regarding subconscious emotional states and musical taste. To me, his music leaves me in a state of emotional disarray, whereas he feels very satisfied listening to it. He experienced loss of a loved one at a very early age and has never grieved. I asked him if he writes music as a way to express in a non-verbal way what he is feeling emotionally, and he agreed. He stated that life was never completely tonal.

I wonder how much of our musical taste has to do with the dominant brain state we live in. I wonder if the frequency of music or tones that one find's pleasing correlates to the dominant frequencies of the underlying brain states?

Would undergoing Neurofeedback change someone's taste in music?

-

>

> Liz,

>

> Just two anecdotes to add to the conversation:

>

> I have one client who thinks it's a good day when his sessions sound more " melodic " than other days. I've listened to those allegedly more melodic sessions, and I don't hear anything much different from a session that struck him as more cacophonous. I can't figure out why he thinks as he does, and he doesn't analyze it, so it's not really a problem, but it is interesting to me.

>

> And, a few years ago, I helped one home trainer whose mother is a music professor. She couldn't stand the tones for any of the protocols her teen was supposed to be using, simply because they weren't melodic, and she didn't care that creating a melody wasn't the point...she just couldn't make herself stop trying to create something that wasn't going to be there. Had she been the one doing the training, I would've probably had to use alternative tones like the waves and seagulls or chanter. Otherwise, I suspect it would've been so distracting that she'd have gone bonkers just focusing on allowing the tones to be what they are without discernable patterns.

>

> That makes me wonder what the reaction to training is among all those university students in London who've been studied so much...

>

> Tamera

>

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

,

 

It's not obvious to me, sorry. I see no connection except a superficial one. A lot of things have " beats " . Preferences for certain types of music would seem to be highly cultural.

 

Sorry again, but I smell pseudoscience.

 

Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.

 

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:11 PM, <jorge.alvoeiro@...> wrote:

 

Hi ,I can tell you that it does. In fact it's one of my markers to identify whether the NF is havingany effect on the client.If one thinks about this it's obvious that NF has to have an effect on like/dislike of music. As you know

music has a beat which is a frequency. If one is changing one's brain frequency by NF the type of musicone listen to has to change as well. On the whole the person doing NF starts listening to a more variedtype of music, as well as to diferent types of beats.

All the best, -------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://cienciacognitiva.planetaclix.pt/________________________________De: em nome de neurosynchrony

Enviada: sex 7/16/2010 07:00Para: Assunto: Does musical frequency correlate to underlying subconsious frequencies? Much of this conversation is way over my head in regard to music theory, but is very interesting nonetheless as I come from a very musical family. I have a friend who is a composer of mostly atonal, dissonant orchestral music. It makes me uncomfortable to listen to much of his music and I simply don't understand it despite him winning various awards for his work.

I had a discussion with him regarding subconscious emotional states and musical taste. To me, his music leaves me in a state of emotional disarray, whereas he feels very satisfied listening to it. He experienced loss of a loved one at a very early age and has never grieved. I asked him if he writes music as a way to express in a non-verbal way what he is feeling emotionally, and he agreed. He stated that life was never completely tonal.

I wonder how much of our musical taste has to do with the dominant brain state we live in. I wonder if the frequency of music or tones that one find's pleasing correlates to the dominant frequencies of the underlying brain states?

Would undergoing Neurofeedback change someone's taste in music?-

>> Liz,>> Just two anecdotes to add to the conversation:>> I have one client who thinks it's a good day when his sessions sound more " melodic " than other days. I've listened to those allegedly more melodic sessions, and I don't hear anything much different from a session that struck him as more cacophonous. I can't figure out why he thinks as he does, and he doesn't analyze it, so it's not really a problem, but it is interesting to me.

>> And, a few years ago, I helped one home trainer whose mother is a music professor. She couldn't stand the tones for any of the protocols her teen was supposed to be using, simply because they weren't melodic, and she didn't care that creating a melody wasn't the point...she just couldn't make herself stop trying to create something that wasn't going to be there. Had she been the one doing the training, I would've probably had to use alternative tones like the waves and seagulls or chanter. Otherwise, I suspect it would've been so distracting that she'd have gone bonkers just focusing on allowing the tones to be what they are without discernable patterns.

>> That makes me wonder what the reaction to training is among all those university students in London who've been studied so much...>> Tamera>------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

,Please excuse my last remark. I'm sorry I said anything.LizOn Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

,

 

It's not obvious to me, sorry. I see no connection except a superficial one. A lot of things have " beats " . Preferences for certain types of music would seem to be highly cultural.

 

Sorry again, but I smell pseudoscience.

 

Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.

 

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:11 PM, <jorge.alvoeiro@...> wrote:

 

Hi ,I can tell you that it does. In fact it's one of my markers to identify whether the NF is havingany effect on the client.If one thinks about this it's obvious that NF has to have an effect on like/dislike of music. As you know

music has a beat which is a frequency. If one is changing one's brain frequency by NF the type of musicone listen to has to change as well. On the whole the person doing NF starts listening to a more variedtype of music, as well as to diferent types of beats.

All the best, -------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://cienciacognitiva.planetaclix.pt/________________________________De: em nome de neurosynchrony

Enviada: sex 7/16/2010 07:00Para: Assunto: Does musical frequency correlate to underlying subconsious frequencies? Much of this conversation is way over my head in regard to music theory, but is very interesting nonetheless as I come from a very musical family. I have a friend who is a composer of mostly atonal, dissonant orchestral music. It makes me uncomfortable to listen to much of his music and I simply don't understand it despite him winning various awards for his work.

I had a discussion with him regarding subconscious emotional states and musical taste. To me, his music leaves me in a state of emotional disarray, whereas he feels very satisfied listening to it. He experienced loss of a loved one at a very early age and has never grieved. I asked him if he writes music as a way to express in a non-verbal way what he is feeling emotionally, and he agreed. He stated that life was never completely tonal.

I wonder how much of our musical taste has to do with the dominant brain state we live in. I wonder if the frequency of music or tones that one find's pleasing correlates to the dominant frequencies of the underlying brain states?

Would undergoing Neurofeedback change someone's taste in music?-

>> Liz,>> Just two anecdotes to add to the conversation:>> I have one client who thinks it's a good day when his sessions sound more " melodic " than other days. I've listened to those allegedly more melodic sessions, and I don't hear anything much different from a session that struck him as more cacophonous. I can't figure out why he thinks as he does, and he doesn't analyze it, so it's not really a problem, but it is interesting to me.

>> And, a few years ago, I helped one home trainer whose mother is a music professor. She couldn't stand the tones for any of the protocols her teen was supposed to be using, simply because they weren't melodic, and she didn't care that creating a melody wasn't the point...she just couldn't make herself stop trying to create something that wasn't going to be there. Had she been the one doing the training, I would've probably had to use alternative tones like the waves and seagulls or chanter. Otherwise, I suspect it would've been so distracting that she'd have gone bonkers just focusing on allowing the tones to be what they are without discernable patterns.

>> That makes me wonder what the reaction to training is among all those university students in London who've been studied so much...>> Tamera>------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

They are binaural beats embedded in pink noise.  You can create your own binaural beats in BioExplorer and set the protocol to run them constantly, turn them on and off based on the client's performance vis-a-vis thresholds or change the beat frequency depending on peak frequency of the EEG.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 8:40 AM, neurosynchrony <neurosynchrony@...> wrote:

 

Thank you both for your replies. This discussion makes me more interested in trying Swingle's audio CDs to see what the effects on the EEG are. Has anyone experimented with them?

-

[Guest guest]

On, um, a slightly different (um) note:Binaural beats? do they get you high? do they do anything at all?http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128519787

(National Public Radio)LizOn Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

,Please excuse my last remark. I'm sorry I said anything.Liz

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

,

 

It's not obvious to me, sorry. I see no connection except a superficial one. A lot of things have " beats " . Preferences for certain types of music would seem to be highly cultural.

 

Sorry again, but I smell pseudoscience.

 

Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.

 

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:11 PM, <jorge.alvoeiro@...> wrote:

 

Hi ,I can tell you that it does. In fact it's one of my markers to identify whether the NF is havingany effect on the client.If one thinks about this it's obvious that NF has to have an effect on like/dislike of music. As you know

music has a beat which is a frequency. If one is changing one's brain frequency by NF the type of musicone listen to has to change as well. On the whole the person doing NF starts listening to a more variedtype of music, as well as to diferent types of beats.

All the best, -------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://cienciacognitiva.planetaclix.pt/________________________________De: em nome de neurosynchrony

Enviada: sex 7/16/2010 07:00Para: Assunto: Does musical frequency correlate to underlying subconsious frequencies? Much of this conversation is way over my head in regard to music theory, but is very interesting nonetheless as I come from a very musical family. I have a friend who is a composer of mostly atonal, dissonant orchestral music. It makes me uncomfortable to listen to much of his music and I simply don't understand it despite him winning various awards for his work.

I had a discussion with him regarding subconscious emotional states and musical taste. To me, his music leaves me in a state of emotional disarray, whereas he feels very satisfied listening to it. He experienced loss of a loved one at a very early age and has never grieved. I asked him if he writes music as a way to express in a non-verbal way what he is feeling emotionally, and he agreed. He stated that life was never completely tonal.

I wonder how much of our musical taste has to do with the dominant brain state we live in. I wonder if the frequency of music or tones that one find's pleasing correlates to the dominant frequencies of the underlying brain states?

Would undergoing Neurofeedback change someone's taste in music?-

>> Liz,>> Just two anecdotes to add to the conversation:>> I have one client who thinks it's a good day when his sessions sound more " melodic " than other days. I've listened to those allegedly more melodic sessions, and I don't hear anything much different from a session that struck him as more cacophonous. I can't figure out why he thinks as he does, and he doesn't analyze it, so it's not really a problem, but it is interesting to me.

>> And, a few years ago, I helped one home trainer whose mother is a music professor. She couldn't stand the tones for any of the protocols her teen was supposed to be using, simply because they weren't melodic, and she didn't care that creating a melody wasn't the point...she just couldn't make herself stop trying to create something that wasn't going to be there. Had she been the one doing the training, I would've probably had to use alternative tones like the waves and seagulls or chanter. Otherwise, I suspect it would've been so distracting that she'd have gone bonkers just focusing on allowing the tones to be what they are without discernable patterns.

>> That makes me wonder what the reaction to training is among all those university students in London who've been studied so much...>> Tamera>------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I have not used Swingle's CDs. I have use neurofeedback with music in

training. It was interesting to see the emotional response to different

musical input as well as to watch the NF patterns. Some clients dissolved

into disarray and annoyance when confronted with both the visual and

auditory; others found synchrony and enhancement. I also converted some of

the session patterns using BM sounds during training which best matched a

client's observed and self-reported state of alert, calm attention as a

playback for another session to see if the brain would recognize and

approximate the same pattern (very crude, non-research practice). My

impression was the mind/brain is so dynamic that the interactions from one

session to the next were specific to each more than replicable. This makes

sense to me as in mindfulness meditation, while the asana is the same, the

physiological state variability and inner thought/imagery processes and

content are dynamic and need to be so within specific practice parameters.

Please note that I use neurofeedback and biofeedback as self-awareness aids

within a mental health outpatient setting where the goals generally are to

develop a sense of self-competence through awareness and acceptance of

variability. This assists in helping them use intention over reaction to

build resilience and lifestyle actions toward desired change based on the

patient's culture, inner world and role functioning. So, there is nothing

of " pure " NF training in what I am commenting on here.

Best regards,

Aliceann Carlton, LCPC

-- Re: Does musical frequency correlate to underlying

subconsious frequencies?

Thank you both for your replies. This discussion makes me more interested in

trying Swingle's audio CDs to see what the effects on the EEG are. Has

anyone experimented with them?

-