Guest guest Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 Can anyone give me more specific information re tones and chords? I am using Procomp Infinity. For example if making tones within C major what notes do I select? C5/ C6? other. Mark Baddeley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 Mark, I am not sure how the infinity does its midi settings, but in general here is how I have set them in BIoExplorer. choose the scale to be used choose a note for the bass (root) of the chord. I choose one that is low enough to be heard but still sound good on whatever speakers I am using. Midi notes increase by one half step for each numeric step. For example a chord in the key of C major would contain an low note, random example 110. the next note would be E (115) the next note would be G (118) a fourth note would be the octave, 127. If Infinity software numbers their midi notes in the traditional fashion then this should work for you. root 3rd up 5 5th up 3 more octave, root plus 12 georgemartin@... www.northstarneurofeedback.com On Jul 14, 2010, at 8:50 PM, Mark Baddeley wrote: > Can anyone give me more specific information re tones and chords? I > am using > Procomp Infinity. For example if making tones within C major what > notes do I > select? C5/ C6? other. > Mark Baddeley > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Mark,MIDI sounds have 12 (8 white notes and 4 black notes on a piano) per octave. 60 is middle C on the piano, so 48 would be the C below that, 72 would be the C above it, etc. As explained, you can choose any key and find the root notes in that key (like the C in the key of C)If C is 60, C-sharp is 61, D is 62, E-flat is 63, E is 64 (the third in the key of C), F is 64, F-sharp is 65, G is 66 (the 5th in the key of C), etc. To make a major chord in C, you would set one threshold to play 60, another to play 64 and the third to play 66.If you want to create a chord in another key, then you need to know the 3 or 4 notes that make up that chord and find them on the MIDI scale. For example, in the key of F, your root would be 64, your third would be 68 and your fifth would be 70. Obviously major and minor seventh chords would add a fourth note, harmonic and melodic minor chords would usually drop the value of one of the notes by one step on the MIDI scale. If you want to use a Blues scale or Pentatonic or any of the other options, you'll need to know enough music theory to identify the appropriate notes in those. In BioExplorer and in Infiniti, you have the option of creating a chord (with fixed notes), such that one or more or all of the notes play depending on the thresholds you set for them. In my alpha gamma synchrony design in BE, I have one note that plays when alpha coherence is between 40 and 80, another which plays when gamma coherence is in that range, a third that plays when alpha phase angle is within 45 degrees of 0 and a fourth that plays when gamma phase is in that range. It's also possible to set various thresholds on the same band, so the chord fills in more notes as, for example, alpha amplitude goes higher and higher. It's been quite a while since I worked in Infiniti, so I don't recall how they resolve the problem (or if they do) of discrete vs. continuous tones. If a client might be above the threshold to play the note middle-C for 2-3 seconds, in BE you have an object called Continuous MIDI which plays and holds that tone. There is also a simple MIDI object which will play the note over and over (quite a bit more irritating). Not all MIDI instruments sound good in the continuous mode. Often the electronic ones (up in the 90's on the instrument list) sound better than, say a piano key. Another very nice option is to play a melody line with the pitch (and volume?) of the note being played dependent on where in the range of training values the current reading is. For example, if theta is varying in a range between 10 and 22 microvolts (a range of 12), and you set your note range to 60 to 72 (also a range of 12), you can set the software to raise the note one step for each microvolt the signal increases--or to decrease the pitch one note for each microvolt. The melody literally becomes the feedback. Unfortunately, despite several requests to the Infiniti programmers to add this when I was still working closely with them and Francois, I don't believe Infiniti ever developed the ability to change the pace of notes. In BE you can tell the software to play one note every 500 ms (1/2 second), which is a nice calm melody; or you could tell it to play one note every 125 ms, up to 8 notes per second, which would be pretty fast, etc. You can also tell the program only to play a note when the note changes (to avoid plink-plink-pllinking on the same tone over and over) or to force a note to play whenever the signal crosses into the desired range. In Infiniti the speed of the notes is strictly based on the signal, so you often end up with a racing barrage of different notes which is (not) designed to calm down an anxious client very effectively. PeteBoth softwares also.-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160 BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote: Can anyone give me more specific information re tones and chords? I am using Procomp Infinity. For example if making tones within C major what notes do I select? C5/ C6? other. Mark Baddeley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Aw, geez. I just realized I came in on this quite farther along than I thought (Google mail threading.) I have also given this idea quite a bit of thought and I completely agree with Liz that, perhaps, TRYING to have the brain make a chord is probably not a good idea. But, the effects of different chord sounds themselves on our mood can not be disputed. How much THAT part can play in to affecting the effectiveness of neurofeedback is, I'm pretty sure, largely unexplored. Without an empirical study and a group, it's pretty hard to tell. Personally, I keep it really simple and I think that is all that is necessary for the BRAIN to change. However, the idea of creating a design that would work as well and be a more interesting EXPERIENCE during the session is enticing. Just my thoughts. Love all you guys.HelveyOn Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Helvey <chelvey@...> wrote: It takes a little familiarity with chord creation in music:In a C major chord (the 1st,3rd, and 5th notes) making up the chord, are the C, E, and G notes. That would make a perfect C major chord so those notes always will sound correct. (The number after the note C(5) for example is which C note on the keyboard you are playing (low octave or higher octave but the same note.) Any will be OK. To make a perfect sounding major chord, it would be C(5), E(5) and G(5) - all the same octave. But they will sound perfectly fine if you mixed them up. To me, higher notes have more tension than lower ones. Adding a dominant 7th (flatted 7th) note adds some " tension " to the sound (associated commonly with the blues) - B flat. Adding a major 7th ( is more of an easy jazz note feel.Flatting the 3rd (E flat) would make the chord minor and have more of a " sleepy " or " melancholy " sound. Major chords are more directly related to " happy " or " everything is good. " Not to say there is anything wrong with minor chords in neurofeedback - they can bring on a very relaxed state, in my opinion. For music beginners, it is easiest to stay within the key of C because other than the flatted notes I said above, no other sharps or flats will sound correct. (That can be debated of course, but for beginners sake...) Stick with C,E,G, throw in B flat for some tension, throw in a B in place of the B flat in a different design (putting them both together in the same " song " doesn't sound right.)Experiment with D (second,) F (fouth) and A (sixth.) These notes will create strong " tension. " Our ears and mind like to hear the " everything is good " chord so they shouldn't go in often, if at all. There is a LOT to music theory. I know a lot of it, but it is still complex stuff.Start off simple. Probably even stay simple. Most of the best designs I have seen are quite simple - the brain seems to like it that way as far as I can tell. That was probably way more than you wanted to know, but I can't help myself..ChrisOn Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderl@...> wrote: Can anyone give me more specific information re tones and chords? I am using Procomp Infinity. For example if making tones within C major what notes do I select? C5/ C6? other. Mark Baddeley -- Helveychelvey@... -- Helveychelvey@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 ,That was my intended point. Cats and people in comas don't " think " or " try " --they are essentially without the " conscious mind " that gets in the way when you work with many anxious or obsessive or intellectualizing clients. Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235 The Learning Curve, Inc. On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 2:34 PM, neurosynchrony <neurosynchrony@...> wrote: I believe that once the brain recognizes that a given stimulus, whether it is video or music, is mirroring the underlying brain processes, then the brain picks this up as salient, relevant information. When this happens, I would imagine that while you identify the music with your logical brain, the areas of the brain responsible for affecting change in neurofeedback (the insula and anterior cingulate?) kick in and begin to override the conscious brain. The point I explain to friends, and correct me if I'm wrong with any of this post, is that Neurofeedback has been used to train cats and it has been used to train people in a coma. It doesn't really matter if you know what's going on at all at a conscious level... once the brain sees a pattern being replicated in the outside world that mirrors what is going on on the inside world, it apparently knows what to do. Perhaps the cause of this is due to a phase lock of the external senses and the internal brain waves... ? I imagine the reason neurofeedback works is because the external data that is being received through the senses is normally erratic and unpredictable and could be filled with snakes and tigers. In a session of NFB, this external world as represented via the senses is now completely in synch with the inside world. For the time that someone is training, perhaps from a neurological perspective, it would seem that the brain is looking into a mirror with a million mirrors and is completely mesmerized by being truly present in time without having to process what is going on in the outside world, but rather, being in synch with itself. Once this happens, perhaps the brain doesn't need to communicate as frequently with the other structures that correspond with fear or rumination, and it can let go and be present in the moment. I'm sure that's a gross oversimplification, seeing as each site and each frequency accomplishes something different, but I imagine it's at least part of the picture. - > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Can anyone give me more specific information re tones and chords? I am > >>>> using > >>>> Procomp Infinity. For example if making tones within C major what notes > >>>> do I > >>>> select? C5/ C6? other. > >>>> Mark Baddeley > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Liz, Just two anecdotes to add to the conversation: I have one client who thinks it's a good day when his sessions sound more "melodic" than other days. I've listened to those allegedly more melodic sessions, and I don't hear anything much different from a session that struck him as more cacophonous. I can't figure out why he thinks as he does, and he doesn't analyze it, so it's not really a problem, but it is interesting to me. And, a few years ago, I helped one home trainer whose mother is a music professor. She couldn't stand the tones for any of the protocols her teen was supposed to be using, simply because they weren't melodic, and she didn't care that creating a melody wasn't the point...she just couldn't make herself stop trying to create something that wasn't going to be there. Had she been the one doing the training, I would've probably had to use alternative tones like the waves and seagulls or chanter. Otherwise, I suspect it would've been so distracting that she'd have gone bonkers just focusing on allowing the tones to be what they are without discernable patterns. That makes me wonder what the reaction to training is among all those university students in London who've been studied so much... Tamera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Sorry I hit reply and walked away for a bit so I didn't see your most recent response. Was trying to restate to what I've learned from you and others so far...it's good practice for when I have to convince clients to actually pay me. Ironically, it's hard enough to convince family and friends to do it for free. - > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Can anyone give me more specific information re tones and chords? I > > am > > > >>>> using > > > >>>> Procomp Infinity. For example if making tones within C major what > > notes > > > >>>> do I > > > >>>> select? C5/ C6? other. > > > >>>> Mark Baddeley > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 So the maybe the stimulus that's linked to the threshold is irrelevant if the idea is to just get that simple associative link. And we should just use a simple tone for whatever we're doing and not worry about multiple tones, triads, ocean waves, mandalas, etc. (except for marketing purposes, of course)LizOn Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 1:06 AM, neurosynchrony <neurosynchrony@...> wrote: Sorry I hit reply and walked away for a bit so I didn't see your most recent response. Was trying to restate to what I've learned from you and others so far...it's good practice for when I have to convince clients to actually pay me. Ironically, it's hard enough to convince family and friends to do it for free. - > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Can anyone give me more specific information re tones and chords? I > > am > > > >>>> using > > > >>>> Procomp Infinity. For example if making tones within C major what > > notes > > > >>>> do I > > > >>>> select? C5/ C6? other. > > > >>>> Mark Baddeley > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Chris That was only a little bit more.Thank you. You have helped simplfy it for me. Mark Re: Tones and chords It takes a little familiarity with chord creation in music:In a C major chord (the 1st,3rd, and 5th notes) making up the chord, are the C, E, and G notes. That would make a perfect C major chord so those notes always will sound correct. (The number after the note C(5) for example is which C note on the keyboard you are playing (low octave or higher octave but the same note.) Any will be OK. To make a perfect sounding major chord, it would be C(5), E(5) and G(5) - all the same octave. But they will sound perfectly fine if you mixed them up. To me, higher notes have more tension than lower ones.Adding a dominant 7th (flatted 7th) note adds some "tension" to the sound (associated commonly with the blues) - B flat. Adding a major 7th ( is more of an easy jazz note feel.Flatting the 3rd (E flat) would make the chord minor and have more of a "sleepy" or "melancholy" sound. Major chords are more directly related to "happy" or "everything is good." Not to say there is anything wrong with minor chords in neurofeedback - they can bring on a very relaxed state, in my opinion.For music beginners, it is easiest to stay within the key of C because other than the flatted notes I said above, no other sharps or flats will sound correct. (That can be debated of course, but for beginners sake...)Stick with C,E,G, throw in B flat for some tension, throw in a B in place of the B flat in a different design (putting them both together in the same "song" doesn't sound right.)Experiment with D (second,) F (fouth) and A (sixth.) These notes will create strong "tension." Our ears and mind like to hear the "everything is good" chord so they shouldn't go in often, if at all.There is a LOT to music theory. I know a lot of it, but it is still complex stuff.Start off simple. Probably even stay simple. Most of the best designs I have seen are quite simple - the brain seems to like it that way as far as I can tell.That was probably way more than you wanted to know, but I can't help myself..Chris On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Mark Baddeley <mbadderlbigpond (DOT) net.au> wrote: Can anyone give me more specific information re tones and chords? I am using Procomp Infinity. For example if making tones within C major what notes do I select? C5/ C6? other.Mark Baddeley -- Helveychelveyhelveyconsulting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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