RE: Headaches from training with children

[Guest guest]

SOOO much to ask. I'll start with- What are you training:

Modality:

Montage:

Frequencies/Dynamic:

Condition Duration:

Session Length:

How many sessions already:

Thanks,

From: conniewelsh@...Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 02:36:05 +0000Subject: Headaches from training with children

Hi all, one of my kids (6) mom is complaining that she is getting headaches since we have been training.Has anyone had this situation? Do you think it is due to the training?Connie

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[Guest guest]

Connie,I agree with that when you want to ask this kind of question it would be helpful to give more information about what you are doing and where.  Here are some general comments:If you are training HEG, chances are you are pushing the sessions too long or doing them too frequently.

If you are uptraining beta (or maybe even SMR) chances are you are training too high a frequency or, again, training too long.It's also of value to know something about the headaches.  How long after the session do they start?  How long do they last?  Are they kind of hazy or very sharp?  any particular part of the head where they seem to occur?  Sometimes people who are training to activate will experience a kind of " pressure " in the head which is not exactly a headache but a almost a sensation of too much blood in that area.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 11:36 PM, conniewelsh2 <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

Hi all, one of my kids (6) mom is complaining that she is getting headaches since we have been training.

Has anyone had this situation? Do you think it is due to the training?

[Guest guest]

Hi Connie,

Initially, these so called "headaches" are nothing more then a new and unusual sensation (buzz) in the head, which are not really painful, but if ignored can turn into painful headaches. It is my understanding, that they represent increased circulation/perfusion in the brain and are good sign, indicating that the client will improve with with the protocol that you are using. I believe this buzz feeling is a sign of over training and that efforts to reduce the sensation should be taken. If the training is not too robust you can expect any buzz sensations to dissipate in 2-3 hours after trainig.

I would first try and reduce the time of training, i.e., 20 minutes to 15 minutes. I would also try giving more rests periods during the training process, i.e., pause the training and ask the client how they are doing and have them take a drink of ice water to reduce fatigue and drowsiness every 2, 3, 4, or 5 minutes, whatever works best for the client and appears beneficial on the screen. Some practitioners prefer not to interrupt the training, but talk with the client and have them take a drink of ice water while the training continues (15-45 seconds). Another option could be to increase the time delay for rewards from say 250 msec to 400 or 500 msec. The more robust the training the more likely you may have overtraining or adverse training effects. Listen and be sensitive to client's complaints. The more calm and relaxed they are with the training, the more they will want to come back and finish the training process.

I must admit that early in my neurofeedback career, I expected my clients to have these sensations and I was cavalier in my approach and rarely made any changes. In retrospect, I wish I would have been more sensitive and more understanding of my early client's discomfort and would have made changes to accommodate their needs.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

Hi all, one of my kids (6) mom is complaining that she is getting headaches since we have been training.Has anyone had this situation? Do you think it is due to the training?Connie

[Guest guest]

,

CZ and C4 (trying to find the right place and frequency)

Inhibit 2-5 and 22-37 and various frequencies between 8 and 13

(reward). About 7 sessions so far. 10 minutes each, twice a week.

She is having quite a bit of dramatic results either very good

or very bad. However, we will get a good one for emotional control that will

increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa.

Pete recommended taking off the reward and I think I may do

that.

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of Machado

Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 1:45 AM

Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children

SOOO much to ask.

I'll start with- What are you training:

Modality:

Montage:

Frequencies/Dynamic:

Condition Duration:

Session Length:

How many sessions already:

Thanks,

From: conniewelsh@...

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 02:36:05 +0000

Subject: Headaches from training with children

Hi all, one of my kids (6) mom

is complaining that she is getting headaches since we have been training.

Has anyone had this situation? Do you think it is due to the training?

Connie

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much. Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of JD Elder

Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:26 AM

Subject: Re: Headaches from training with children

Hi Connie,

Initially, these so called

" headaches " are nothing more then a new and unusual sensation

(buzz) in the head, which are not really painful, but if ignored can

turn into painful headaches. It is my understanding, that they represent

increased circulation/perfusion in the brain and are good sign, indicating that

the client will improve with with the protocol that you are using. I believe

this buzz feeling is a sign of over training and that efforts to reduce the

sensation should be taken. If the training is not too robust you can

expect any buzz sensations to dissipate in 2-3 hours after trainig.

I would first try and reduce

the time of training, i.e., 20 minutes to 15 minutes. I would also try giving

more rests periods during the training process, i.e., pause the training and

ask the client how they are doing and have them take a drink of ice water to

reduce fatigue and drowsiness every 2, 3, 4, or 5 minutes, whatever works

best for the client and appears beneficial on the screen. Some practitioners

prefer not to interrupt the training, but talk with the client and have them

take a drink of ice water while the training continues (15-45 seconds). Another

option could be to increase the time delay for rewards from say 250 msec to 400

or 500 msec. The more robust the training the more likely you may have

overtraining or adverse training effects. Listen and be sensitive to client's

complaints. The more calm and relaxed they are with the training, the more they

will want to come back and finish the training process.

I must admit that early in

my neurofeedback career, I expected my clients to have these sensations

and I was cavalier in my approach and rarely made any changes. In retrospect, I

wish I would have been more sensitive and more understanding of my early

client's discomfort and would have made changes to accommodate their needs.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

Hi all, one of my kids (6) mom is complaining

that she is getting headaches since we have been training.

Has anyone had this situation? Do you think it is due to the training?

Connie

[Guest guest]

TSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerryFrom: "Connie Welsh" <conniewelsh@...>Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:16:18 -0400< >Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children Thanks so much. Connie From: [mailto: ] On BehalfOf JD ElderSent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:26 AM Subject: Re: Headaches from training with children Hi Connie, Initially, these so called " headaches " are nothing more then a new and unusual sensation(buzz) in the head, which are not really painful, but if ignored canturn into painful headaches. It is my understanding, that they representincreased circulation/perfusion in the brain and are good sign, indicating thatthe client will improve with with the protocol that you are using. I believethis buzz feeling is a sign of over training and that efforts to reduce thesensation should be taken. If the training is not too robust you canexpect any buzz sensations to dissipate in 2-3 hours after trainig. I would first try and reducethe time of training, i.e., 20 minutes to 15 minutes. I would also try givingmore rests periods during the training process, i.e., pause the training andask the client how they are doing and have them take a drink of ice water toreduce fatigue and drowsiness every 2, 3, 4, or 5 minutes, whatever worksbest for the client and appears beneficial on the screen. Some practitionersprefer not to interrupt the training, but talk with the client and have themtake a drink of ice water while the training continues (15-45 seconds). Anotheroption could be to increase the time delay for rewards from say 250 msec to 400or 500 msec. The more robust the training the more likely you may haveovertraining or adverse training effects. Listen and be sensitive to client'scomplaints. The more calm and relaxed they are with the training, the more theywill want to come back and finish the training process. I must admit that early inmy neurofeedback career, I expected my clients to have these sensationsand I was cavalier in my approach and rarely made any changes. In retrospect, Iwish I would have been more sensitive and more understanding of my earlyclient's discomfort and would have made changes to accommodate their needs.Best Regards,JD Elder Hi all, one of my kids (6) mom is complainingthat she is getting headaches since we have been training.Has anyone had this situation? Do you think it is due to the training?Connie

[Guest guest]

TSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerryFrom: "Connie Welsh" <conniewelsh@...>Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:16:18 -0400< >Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children Thanks so much. Connie From: [mailto: ] On BehalfOf JD ElderSent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:26 AM Subject: Re: Headaches from training with children Hi Connie, Initially, these so called " headaches " are nothing more then a new and unusual sensation(buzz) in the head, which are not really painful, but if ignored canturn into painful headaches. It is my understanding, that they representincreased circulation/perfusion in the brain and are good sign, indicating thatthe client will improve with with the protocol that you are using. I believethis buzz feeling is a sign of over training and that efforts to reduce thesensation should be taken. If the training is not too robust you canexpect any buzz sensations to dissipate in 2-3 hours after trainig. I would first try and reducethe time of training, i.e., 20 minutes to 15 minutes. I would also try givingmore rests periods during the training process, i.e., pause the training andask the client how they are doing and have them take a drink of ice water toreduce fatigue and drowsiness every 2, 3, 4, or 5 minutes, whatever worksbest for the client and appears beneficial on the screen. Some practitionersprefer not to interrupt the training, but talk with the client and have themtake a drink of ice water while the training continues (15-45 seconds). Anotheroption could be to increase the time delay for rewards from say 250 msec to 400or 500 msec. The more robust the training the more likely you may haveovertraining or adverse training effects. Listen and be sensitive to client'scomplaints. The more calm and relaxed they are with the training, the more theywill want to come back and finish the training process. I must admit that early inmy neurofeedback career, I expected my clients to have these sensationsand I was cavalier in my approach and rarely made any changes. In retrospect, Iwish I would have been more sensitive and more understanding of my earlyclient's discomfort and would have made changes to accommodate their needs.Best Regards,JD Elder Hi all, one of my kids (6) mom is complainingthat she is getting headaches since we have been training.Has anyone had this situation? Do you think it is due to the training?Connie

[Guest guest]

TSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerryFrom: "Connie Welsh" <conniewelsh@...>Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:16:18 -0400< >Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children Thanks so much. Connie From: [mailto: ] On BehalfOf JD ElderSent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:26 AM Subject: Re: Headaches from training with children Hi Connie, Initially, these so called " headaches " are nothing more then a new and unusual sensation(buzz) in the head, which are not really painful, but if ignored canturn into painful headaches. It is my understanding, that they representincreased circulation/perfusion in the brain and are good sign, indicating thatthe client will improve with with the protocol that you are using. I believethis buzz feeling is a sign of over training and that efforts to reduce thesensation should be taken. If the training is not too robust you canexpect any buzz sensations to dissipate in 2-3 hours after trainig. I would first try and reducethe time of training, i.e., 20 minutes to 15 minutes. I would also try givingmore rests periods during the training process, i.e., pause the training andask the client how they are doing and have them take a drink of ice water toreduce fatigue and drowsiness every 2, 3, 4, or 5 minutes, whatever worksbest for the client and appears beneficial on the screen. Some practitionersprefer not to interrupt the training, but talk with the client and have themtake a drink of ice water while the training continues (15-45 seconds). Anotheroption could be to increase the time delay for rewards from say 250 msec to 400or 500 msec. The more robust the training the more likely you may haveovertraining or adverse training effects. Listen and be sensitive to client'scomplaints. The more calm and relaxed they are with the training, the more theywill want to come back and finish the training process. I must admit that early inmy neurofeedback career, I expected my clients to have these sensationsand I was cavalier in my approach and rarely made any changes. In retrospect, Iwish I would have been more sensitive and more understanding of my earlyclient's discomfort and would have made changes to accommodate their needs.Best Regards,JD Elder Hi all, one of my kids (6) mom is complainingthat she is getting headaches since we have been training.Has anyone had this situation? Do you think it is due to the training?Connie

[Guest guest]

Hey, I agree with Pete, Removing the Reward demand may help. I teach everyone how to connect with the EFFORTLESS sensation of their breathing.

The body is relaxed! Though the mind gets focussed. Is she really engaged? TRYING hard? I do have a bit of a different approach than my dad. So I ask- with what resource are you obtaining this info?: "get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa" How are you gathering this info? Remember that every takeoff is turbulent. If you're getting this info from parent reports, there MAY be room here for: 1- less micromanagement of the BEHAVIOURAL symptoms or2- more confident poker facing from you about the OVERALL benefits.

(agreeing with JD that a physical sensation can be alleviated by a change in tack, like what you did by taking out the REWARD) But that's alot of projection onto that short line> "get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa" Hope I helped,

From: conniewelsh@...Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:14:38 -0400Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children

,

CZ and C4 (trying to find the right place and frequency)

Inhibit 2-5 and 22-37 and various frequencies between 8 and 13 (reward). About 7 sessions so far. 10 minutes each, twice a week.

She is having quite a bit of dramatic results either very good or very bad. However, we will get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa.

Pete recommended taking off the reward and I think I may do that.

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Connie

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

Hey, I agree with Pete, Removing the Reward demand may help. I teach everyone how to connect with the EFFORTLESS sensation of their breathing.

The body is relaxed! Though the mind gets focussed. Is she really engaged? TRYING hard? I do have a bit of a different approach than my dad. So I ask- with what resource are you obtaining this info?: "get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa" How are you gathering this info? Remember that every takeoff is turbulent. If you're getting this info from parent reports, there MAY be room here for: 1- less micromanagement of the BEHAVIOURAL symptoms or2- more confident poker facing from you about the OVERALL benefits.

(agreeing with JD that a physical sensation can be alleviated by a change in tack, like what you did by taking out the REWARD) But that's alot of projection onto that short line> "get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa" Hope I helped,

From: conniewelsh@...Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:14:38 -0400Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children

,

CZ and C4 (trying to find the right place and frequency)

Inhibit 2-5 and 22-37 and various frequencies between 8 and 13 (reward). About 7 sessions so far. 10 minutes each, twice a week.

She is having quite a bit of dramatic results either very good or very bad. However, we will get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa.

Pete recommended taking off the reward and I think I may do that.

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Connie

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

Hey, I agree with Pete, Removing the Reward demand may help. I teach everyone how to connect with the EFFORTLESS sensation of their breathing.

The body is relaxed! Though the mind gets focussed. Is she really engaged? TRYING hard? I do have a bit of a different approach than my dad. So I ask- with what resource are you obtaining this info?: "get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa" How are you gathering this info? Remember that every takeoff is turbulent. If you're getting this info from parent reports, there MAY be room here for: 1- less micromanagement of the BEHAVIOURAL symptoms or2- more confident poker facing from you about the OVERALL benefits.

(agreeing with JD that a physical sensation can be alleviated by a change in tack, like what you did by taking out the REWARD) But that's alot of projection onto that short line> "get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa" Hope I helped,

From: conniewelsh@...Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:14:38 -0400Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children

,

CZ and C4 (trying to find the right place and frequency)

Inhibit 2-5 and 22-37 and various frequencies between 8 and 13 (reward). About 7 sessions so far. 10 minutes each, twice a week.

She is having quite a bit of dramatic results either very good or very bad. However, we will get a good one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa.

Pete recommended taking off the reward and I think I may do that.

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Connie

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

Thanks,

I am fairly new to training children so young and the experience

is much different than training an 11 year old which was my youngest so

far. I did not realize that just going down to age 6 or 7

would be so different.

With the older kids and adults, I am very concerned about

the results the day after. So when I say something that is good for

emotional control and bad for hyperactivity, the mom said that she was

very easy to deal with and did not scream and cry over little frustrations but

she was bouncing off the walls. Then I try another and get that she was not

hyperactive at all but screaming at any small thing that happened.

I have come to the conclusion from these two kids (6) that I am dealing with

that young kids are very responsive to training, also they seem to be a

moving target, what helps one day is not good the next. I do

encourage parents to tell me everything since usually these clue me into where

to go with the protocol.

So, I am going to not reward with this little girl and

take down high beta and 19-22 like Pete suggested along with

2-6. This should minimize side effects (I hope). I am

also going to take training breaks like was suggested to minimize any possible

headaches (if they are even caused by training).

Thanks for the response!! Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of Machado

Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:12 AM

Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children

Hey,

I agree with Pete,

Removing the Reward demand may help.

I teach everyone how to connect with the EFFORTLESS sensation of

their breathing.

The body is relaxed! Though the mind gets focussed. Is she really engaged?

TRYING hard?

I do have a bit of a different

approach than my dad. So I ask-

with what resource are you

obtaining this info?:

" get a good one for emotional control that

will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa "

How are you gathering this info?

Remember that every takeoff is turbulent. If you're

getting this info from parent reports, there MAY be room here for:

1- less micromanagement of the BEHAVIOURAL symptoms

or

2- more confident poker facing from you about the

OVERALL benefits.

(agreeing with JD that a physical

sensation can be alleviated by a change in tack, like what you did by

taking out the REWARD)

But that's alot of projection onto that short

line>

" get a good

one for emotional control that will increase her hyperactivity and impulsivity

and visa versa "

Hope I helped,

From: conniewelsh@...

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:14:38 -0400

Subject: RE: Headaches from training with children

,

CZ and C4

(trying to find the right place and frequency)

Inhibit 2-5

and 22-37 and various frequencies between 8 and 13 (reward). About 7

sessions so far. 10 minutes each, twice a week.

She is

having quite a bit of dramatic results either very good or very bad.

However, we will get a good one for emotional control that will increase

her hyperactivity and impulsivity and visa versa.

Pete

recommended taking off the reward and I think I may do that.

I would be

interested in your thoughts.

Connie

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.